np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 2 - Spider Man [Metagrossite remains OU]

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This may be an oddly disjointed post as I've been sitting parts if it on it for a day or so. Most of these are general observations as I don't want to unintentionally hit any exposed nerves.

I'm a little irked by a few bad arguments that I've seen in the past couple of pages. I noticed a few posters (including a few who should know better) suggesting that the 90% accuracy of Meta's attacks is a mitigating factor in the suspect test. I wonder where this concern was during the recent suspect tests. Accuracy only really becomes a mitigating factor ~75%, but the only mons that I find are truly troubled by accuracy issues are psychics relying on Focus Blast or Tornadus-T/Noivern. You're more likely to get an attack raise with Meteor Mash than to miss with it. You're still not very likely to get either, though.

I'm not enjoying arguments that insist that we keep Mega-Meta around to check XYZ. Most of these arguments look a lot like lampshaded "broken checking broken elements" arguments. I understand that there have been a few posts that are more complex than that, but I still find these arguments unconvincing because even the most well crafted argument along those lines depends on a particularized vision of the metagame that may create a false teleology between the suspect and the (theoretical) future metagame.

Regardless, if Metagross is banned and something else becomes broken, we'll ban it. This foundational piece of tiering philosophy has been attacked as a process that will lead to an endless parade of suspects, which is silly as it invites the reader to oppose suspect tests not because they may be unnecessary but instead because there might be several of them.

I saw a couple of arguments about power creep in the past 30 posts or so. I think everyone agrees that there is an acceptable amount of power creep in each gen/release, and that there is a line between acceptable power creep and unacceptable power creep. AM posted this a bit ago; it's worth reading as regards power creep even if you're against the ban.
The reason why I don't think M-Gross is healthy for the tier is because it's one of the epitomes of the power creep we've been provided with the coming of ORAS and Gen 6 in general so to speak and when Char-X and M-Pinsir start to look like a walk in the park in comparison to M-Gross that is where I'm convinced its too much for the tier. People can sort of accept the power creep aspect if they want but there is only so much I'm actually going to tolerate before I draw the line, and M-Gross is what I'm currently going to be drawing the line at this point in time.
 
I would like to respond to these two posts since they're representative of an awful form of thinking that if popularized is going to fuck up tiering on this site for the foreseeable future. I like to refer to this kind of "argument" as the "Appeal to Stability", because its proponents tend to glorify concepts like "stability" and "predictability". A less charitable soul might slam their heads against their desks while yelling "slippery slope".

The extreme form of this argument is "haha smogon why not just ban all megas already until only magikarp in ou", which is of course rightfully dismissed, but prettying it up with long paragraphs and bold text does not change its essential character or make it any more convincing.

The typical train of thought sounds something like this:
- Sure, Pokemon X is very good/the best in the tier, but it is still "handleable" in some way
- There is always a Pokemon that is very good/the best in the tier
- Banning X necessitates/justifies/makes inevitable the banning of Y and Z which will be the next best in the tier, which is bad

A more nuanced, but ultimately still wrong-headed, form of the argument goes like this:
- Sure Pokemon X is very good/the best in the tier, but it is still "handleable" in some way
- And, Pokemon X is necessary to keep Pokemon Y and Z "in check"
- So banning Pokemon X would be net worse than keeping it in the tier

There are two major (and a bunch of minor) problems that pervade every one of these posts.
1. A non-existent false dilemma wherein they argue that if X is broken, every succeeding "best Pokemon" is broken
2. Making the value judgment that bans are "bad"

Let's explore these two in more detail, shall we?

1. False Dilemma
A false dilemma (or "fallacy of the excluded middle") is a rhetorical device used to paint proponents of a particular viewpoint into a corner where they are forced to defend the most extreme examples of that viewpoint. In this case, we have Terminate and BasedCannon arguing that if a user wishes to ban Metagrossite, they are also compelled to support bans of subsequent "best Pokemon" like Diancite, Sableite, etc., because they will become the best Pokemon in the tier. For example:




Notice a couple of things about these statements:
- There is no allowance for agency on the part of pro-ban users. The "vicious cycle" of bans is portrayed as an inevitability with no chance of being stopped. A slippery slope is formed.
- There is an unbelievable amount of hand-waving with regard to what is going to be banned, why it will be broken, and why it is similar to the current suspect. Coming up with accurate comparisons between predicted future banned Pokemon and the current suspect is usually impossible, so it just isn't done.

The first reason this is bullshit is that it presumes that whatever the "best Pokemon" in the tier is will be just as dominant or comparatively powerful as the current suspect. If this was the case, there would be no "settling point" where the metagame would be balanced, because as the most powerful thing is removed from the tier, the next most powerful becomes equally dominant. Unfortunately, every past metagame using something like the current suspect system demonstrates the exact opposite. 4th generation is eminently balanced. There are certainly top threats (like Scizor and Tyranitar), but these threats are not so far above the remainder of the tier that they create an unhealthy effect on the metagame. The end of BW1, after the Deo-S banning, was a reasonably balanced metagame (to the extent that this was possible with weather in the tier). The end of BW2, after the Landorus banning (and arguably beforehand as well) was balanced. And the end of XY was also a very balanced metagame (with the arguable exception of Greninja). Every OU metagame where suspect testing has been the standard for tiering has shown the same propensities: a period of rapid bans in the months directly following a new game's release (we are in the very tail end of this period related to ORAS), followed by a "settling down" where there are few-to-none subsequent tests. Given that this pattern has been followed almost uniformly in each generation we have observed to this point, there needs to be a lot of compelling argumentation done if we are to believe that this will not be the case in ORAS. Needless to say, none is offered.

The second problematic feature of these arguments is the implication that nothing will be broken if things stay stable, but by banning the current suspect we "break" other Pokemon and require more bans (this is a rhetorical device used to put blame on the users with the opposing viewpoint - it's their fault that more bans will be needed, because they are the ones who banned the current suspect). Here we come to the trope of "broken checking broken" and its various responses. As we know, we cannot justify keeping broken things in OU because they keep other broken things in check. The inevitable retort is something like "well it's not really broken checking broken, it's more like..." You should stop any time you find yourself saying this. There are 3 options for your argument:
A. It assumes the current suspect is broken, so your argument actually is a derivative of "broken checking broken", and is pointless.
B. It assumes that the posited "next best thing" isn't broken, so your argument is useless, because there's no need to keep something in the tier to keep something that isn't even broken in check.
C. It assumes that the current suspect isn't broken, so your argument is useless, because you're assuming the thing you're trying to prove. This is begging the question.
In any case, arguing to keep a suspect because of its relationship toward other dominant threats in the tier is almost always pointless.

2. Unjustified value judgment
An underlying and often overlooked problem with the Appeal to Stability is that the entire "thrust" of the argument rests on a value judgment that is never justified and is, indeed, baseless. In order to convince anybody that the imagined "vicious cycle" of bannings that is always right around the corner is actually a bad thing, we see a lot of loaded terminology that make bannings seem like something terrible. This is never flat-out stated (because it's unjustifiable), but it's easily seen in the phrases that pop up in this type of post. Examples of "scare terms" are bolded:





There's a lot to unpack here.
First off, we have the trope of the "chaotic metagame" as something to be feared. We have a handle on what the metagame looks like now (it's the stability they love to cling to), but if we go through with banning the current suspect, we could have all kinds of "issues" (what exactly those are is never quite clear). However, there is nothing wrong with suspecting things, banning things, or in general making changes to the metagame. These sorts of policy moves are part of any healthy metagame and are more indicative of a healthy, engaged community than any sort of terrifying spiral into anarchy. In fact, stagnation poses its own threat to the metagame, as we saw in the early portions of XY. Ultimately it's wrong to say that change is either good or bad - each instance needs to be evaluated in its context. Claiming that any changes are indicative of the "degeneration of the meta" is clearly off-base.

Second, we have the idea that banning a Pokemon is "taking something" from the tier. BasedCannon says that we are "degenerating the meta down to a pathetic shell of what it could be" (I'm seriously in love with this quote), while Terminate says we are "pointlessly banning" useful Pokemon. I would like to emphasize that removing a Pokemon from a tier is not an inherently negative thing. There is no reason to believe that banning Pokemon (or unbanning Pokemon) is good or bad in its own right. Even if it was the case that having more Pokemon in a tier was in itself a good thing (which is highly questionable), removing a Pokemon from a tier often allows space for other Pokemon to find niches and become more viable. On the flip side, allowing a Pokemon in a tier can push others out (see Ubers). The point is that OU as a tier does not "need" any individual Pokemon in it, whether it be Mega-Metagross, Gyarados, Aegislash, or whatever. All it needs is to be reasonably balanced, wherever we (as the community) choose to draw that line.


Alright, this got a bit longer than I intended it to be, but there you go. It's important that nothing I said is particular to Mega-Metagross (in fact I'm still undecided on this particular suspect test). I'm not saying that there aren't good reasons to think Mega-Metagross (or any suspect) should stay in OU. What I want is for people to recognize and avoid this particular class of argumentation, which paints the suspect process (a healthy, reasonable method of keeping the tier balanced) as something to be feared and avoided at all costs, and focuses on "stability" and "predictability" (read: no changes) at the substantial cost of balance in the tier. There is no need to fear changes or tweaks to the metagame - we have a robust system in place to handle imbalance. Being scared of "future imbalances" or "vicious cycles" has never been and likely will never be a good reason to oppose a ban. Good arguments ground themselves in the particulars of the current situation.
AM Edit: Removed snarky reply. Don't do that again.

You seem to have completely also missed my point entirely, and by entirely I mean by a 90 degree angle, I didn't suggest not banning things at all in the future. I suggested banning things that actually have a negative impact on the meta-game instead of Mega-Metagross in which so far in my laddering I haven't seen it honestly be that big of a threat. It's not 6-0'ing any of my teams and it's not broken as people who call for the bans are making it out to be. I've said it once and I'll say it again, Mega-Metagross is powerful, bulky and pretty good on its speed, however in exchange for taking a mega-slot, it's Achilles heel lies in it's inability to cover everything and relying on standard/relatively "okay" attacking moves such as Meteor Mash, as well as the chance of missing all of its attacks.

I will no longer be arguing about whether or not an argument is allowed. If you wish to debate on whether Metagross is too powerful, please tell me how. With many demonstrations instead of just posting calcs.

One more time so that this post is relevant to the overall discussion at hand:

Mega-Metagross is not an overpowering pokemon. It is certainly a pokemon that cannot be underestimated but the same thing could be said for plenty of threats in OU such as Keldeo, Heatran, or Talonflame, etc. Any competent player usually already has a method of dealing with steel-types and Mega-metagross is no exception. Most of the arguments against Mega-Metagross seem to be coming from Offense solely, while Stall and balance from what I can gather remain relatively fine. I am going to vote for No-Ban for Mega-Metagross lacking the common description of what could be considered Uber material. While it certainly comes close to the description, I feel that banning Mega-Metagross will achieve nothing entirely, we'd have one less Pokemon to use and thus just kill more variety. A lack of variety leads to a stale meta-game very quickly. I feel that in order to prevent this Meta-game from being stale, we do not ban Mega-metagross.
 
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Okay, so I may be relatively new to smogon and how things work here, but I believe i have enough info on megagross to come to a decision. Megagross is a serious problem. It has a few of the same issues geninja had in that it limits team building, doesn't have counters (only checks), amazing speed tier, and great coverage with a very high Atk stat and a strong SpAtk to use grass knot for bulky water types. It also has a few qualities that Greninja didn't have such as great bulk for how high it's attacking stats are and awesome typing. He can OHKO many of his so-called checks and still hits the rest of the tier for super or neutral. Even pokes that can outspeed it for revenge kills can't do it consistently. For most revenge killers the attacks are rolls without rocks, and even with rocks they can't outspeed Megagross if it has agility and was able to set it up. A pokemon needs to be banned when it's unhealthy for the metagame, and when every team NEEDS to run a revenge killer or multiple checks for a monster like this, it is quite obvious Megagross needs to go. I'll be working on getting reqs and while i do i'm going to keep a close eye on how the metagame looks without Megagross and that will be the final factor that affects my decision.
 
it's not that you have to perfectly predict every time the opponent brings in a pokemon, the issue is that if your main switch-in to metagross can possibly be 2HKOed by a combination of move you'll find yourself in trouble. Those "so many mons that can switch in" are not actually so many because many can just switch on it once or at best twice before being in range of a KO, others are smacked by the right coverage move and some others need to be perfectly healthy to eat up hits from metagross. You don't have to 2HKO everything with perfect prediction every time, you can just force an insane amount of switches to freely fire off STABs or other coverage moves to seriously hurt its checks and at some point they'll be too weak to take another hit. Also balance and stall can have dedicated answers to this, but what about offense? of course offense can keep up pressure to limitate the free turns it generates but at the same time if it gets one of those free turns he basically gets a kill or severely hurts the opposing mon.

If you just pack 1 switch in for a mon like Metagross thats an teambuilding issue. There are mons in the OU tier that dont have sure fire counters, Metagross is just another one. But he has so many soft checks that it easily compensates that.

Small list just of the top of my head:
Waters: Cune, Bro, Slowking, Alomo, Starmie, Rotom-w, Manaphy
Steels: Jirachi, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Skarm, Scizor, Bisharp
Psychics: Mew, Celebi, Victini
Grounds: Lando-T, Gliscor, Hippo, Def Chomp
Others: Mandibuzz, Phys def Zapdos

All of them can come in on 2 or 3 of metas moves and threaten him with SE coverage or status like Twave. Yes they all lose to some specific move, but they can still be used for pivoting until you know the set, and once you know it things get alot easier.

And the argument of "force an insane amount of switches and freely fire of stabs" is only true to an degree because it assumes that Meta can get in for free all the time which he wont against decent players/teams. And if he does the opponent will have a safe way to deal with him otherwise its just bad teambuilding. And as mentioned before, offense isnt supposed to have save switch ins for everything.

Handling Metagross is very similar to handling Greninja, pack 2 or 3 switch ins for it that dont have the same weakness, pivot switch a little until you know the set and your fine. Only difference to Greninja, its far easier due to the larger number of potential switch ins and their higher viability, i mean just look at the list above, most of them are solid A ranks, it isnt much of an issue to put 2 or 3 of them into your team. Often enough you will have them anyway without wasting a thought on Metagross. Also, unlike Greninja Meta cant 2hko everything with a combination of Dark pulse + coverage move.
 
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Okay, so I may be relatively new to smogon and how things work here, but I believe i have enough info on megagross to come to a decision. Megagross is a serious problem. It has a few of the same issues geninja had in that it limits team building, doesn't have counters (only checks), amazing speed tier, and great coverage with a very high Atk stat and a strong SpAtk to use grass knot for bulky water types. It also has a few qualities that Greninja didn't have such as great bulk for how high it's attacking stats are and awesome typing. He can OHKO many of his so-called checks and still hits the rest of the tier for super or neutral. Even pokes that can outspeed it for revenge kills can't do it consistently. For most revenge killers the attacks are rolls without rocks, and even with rocks they can't outspeed Megagross if it has agility and was able to set it up. A pokemon needs to be banned when it's unhealthy for the metagame, and when every team NEEDS to run a revenge killer or multiple checks for a monster like this, it is quite obvious Megagross needs to go. I'll be working on getting reqs and while i do i'm going to keep a close eye on how the metagame looks without Megagross and that will be the final factor that affects my decision.

Not trying to be rude or anything, but I find rather impressive that people even compare Greninja to Megagross:
-It doesn't cost a M-slot
-Its speed tier is much better and doesn't need 1 turn for show up it.
-It doesn't need to have a coverage move that puts him at -1
-Greninja is like Arceus, but instead of having any type you want, it has any 4 types you want for STAB.
-It can cleanly OHKO because the difference in power, Megagross misses some OHKOes(which lets him be weared down much easier.)

I don't see why would someone would need to run multiple checks for Megagross when you only need to scout 1(2 at max in few cases) move(s), and this is no different for mons like Landorus or HP users.

In the actual meta with more Starmies,Raikous,Tornadus-T,Serperior,Latis and of course Lando-T it has trouble switching in freely, especially since some of those mons can 2OHKO(or OHKO with previous damage)since they outspeed him even when Mevolved(and of course the list is much linger if it is not Mevolved,especially since it has less bulk and of course, it is outspeed by many more things).

Add the fact that more than half the battles a Megagross will never have all his health because on the first turn it is outspeed by a lot of the offensive mons.

I am not saying it is not a great mon, of course it is(which is why it is S rank), but I don't think is broken, the arguments some people use are when Megagross always have 100% of his health, always oustpeeds because the other player doesn't have scarfers,Talonflames,Raikous ,somehow it never gets damaged on the first turn, it has not took SR damage, and always carries every coverage and boosting move.
 
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He can OHKO many of his so-called checks and still hits the rest of the tier for super or neutral.


Hey, welcome to Smogon!

Now, I'm not gonna pounce on you for anything, but im just curious about this one sentence.

The basic set has plenty of counters/checks, because if you add something for coverage, you remove the other. For example, if you remove Earthquake, you are now weak to MMan and Victini. The point is is that MMeta isnt a perfect mon, and therefore it has its checks.



But, let me start off by saying i am Not for ban. The guy isnt as ridiculous as everyone says it is. I mean, jesus christ the thing is strong and powerful, but it has a good amount of flaws.

I don't get what some people say. How the pokemon balances/affects the meta is the main point in banning something. Greninja was banned for being too overcentralizing; for fucks sake you had to run like 2 checks to him. With Megagross you arent forced to run anything against it; you just have a bit more trouble with it. If that was the case Counter Skarm would be everywhere. And, something much different than Greninja is that MMeta can be taken on by common pokemon and even switched into by many things, with predictability, of course. You didnt have to run fucking P2 and shit, no. You can run shit like Bulky Lando, Victini, Adamant LO Bisharp (which OHKO's with rocks) Banded or +1 Talonflame, Skarmory, Mega Manectric, Scizor, Mega Sableye, and a plethora of Waters if it doesnt run GK (even then, Rotom Wash can counter MMeta decently.) If we remove this sucker from our metagame even when we have this many fucking checks and counters, then this just shows that the reason why people want to ban this thing is because they cant adapt to the meta. There really isnt anything wrong with that, but this guy really isnt that much of a pain. You're probably wondering; "why am I comparing Greninja to MMeta?" Well, I'm not. I'm comparing how they affected the meta, not their role.

He can be taken on in every playstyle, too. It's quite self explanatory, so I wont elaborate on that.

Now, do I think MMeta is broken? No. Its very easy to prepare for, but the point is is that it hits hard and takes hits even harder. Its flawless stats compensate for almost every weakness it should have. But, it's not like its a god. It has no way to recover health (RESTTALK THO) and it has no way to recover Status (Unless you wanna pull an AM and run Refresh in place for Hammer Arm or GK lol) and it has commonplace weaknesses.

In fact, to an extent, MMeta balances the meta. It balances out Fairy types while giving other types a bigger welcoming. He overall brings out the best of underrated threats, like Celebi, MMan, etc. If Fairys overcame the meta, I would promise you guys would want MMeta back.

So, TL;DR version: MMeta has many checks/counters and isnt as overcentralizing as Greninja. He has a bit of trouble with every playstyle, and he keeps Fairies in check. He really isnt that hard to take out, which is why I say No Ban.
 
Woah gone for a bit, never thought they would suspect meta before Sableye.

I have written the all reasons I could find when the topic was brought up, and the majority then was much more towards suspecting Sableye (not that I think they are both broken but maybe suspect). Any way here is the post http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...tagame-discussion.3528675/page-3#post-6022787

I think a suspect couldn't hurt, unless it does. I vote No Ban.
I'm not gonna delete this comment just so that yourself and people are aware to stop being lazy and actually provide some detail in the actual thread where it matters at this current point in time. I'll be deleting comments like these from here on out so if you plan on posting make a thorough response instead of just using something else off another thread or piggy backing off of someone else' response. Also it would be nice if people actually read old posts instead doing tl;dr. If you don't have the time to read other posts and provide an adequate response to them without the cheap chuckles with a picture and "I didn't read that cause it was too long, here's my opinion on something I didn't even bother reading though", don't bother posting.
 
So I got reqs last night (yay) and have read through the arguments on this thread. I believe I am ready to post what are more or less my final thoughts on mmeta.


As the anti-ban folks have correctly pointed out, mmeta's power is nothing special. When compared to stuff like Zard-X or Mega-Pinsir, it's almost underwhelming for a mega. Furthermore, it really can't setup, meaning that it's very unlikely that it's going to sweep any competently built team.

However, I still believe that it is broken, and here's why:

It has very good bulk, even pre-mega, meaning that it can swap into a plethora of pokemon. This already differentiates mmeta from zard-x or m-pinsir, both of whom almost need a written invitation to swap in safely. Furthermore, as most people have stated, mmeta is a phenomenal 1v1er, meaning that anything it swaps into is probably going to get forced out, giving mmeta a free turn to fire off an attack. While his immediate power is nowhere near that of other hard hitters like mgarde or m-pinsir, it's still going to put a lot of pressure on your opponent's checks(base 145 atk with tough claws is not a wimp slap). While the anti-ban folks are correct in stating that he can be worn down, most revenge killers cannot switch in for free, meaning a mon needs to be sacced in order to revenge him, meaning mmeta has already pulled his weight. Most of his "true counters" like sp defensive slowbro and ferrothorn, are fairly passive and easy for other mons to swap into, meaning that mmeta got to come in and fire off a powerful attack pretty much for free.

What I'm trying to say is that mmeta, by virtue of bulk and typing, gets a ton of swap in opportunities and has enough immediate power to dent anything that swaps in, even if it's immediately forced out. This results in mmeta generating a large number of free turns (by virtue of forcing crap out) while at the same time taking advantage of them to deal heavy damage to the opponent's team. Therefore, I claim that mmeta is broken under the little known "fourth" characteristic of an uber(written by a fellow named X-Act ).

A Pokemon's power is the ratio of the amount of damage it deals on average by the amount of damage it is dealt in common battling conditions.

'Amount of damage it can withstand' was basically the opposite of 'Amount of damage it is dealt'. I actually meant the latter. The following is the reason why:

Arceus is an exaggerated example of a Pokemon that deals a lot of damage and takes little damage - so the ratio for it would be very high (high number divided by low number).

Magikarp would be an exaggerated example of a Pokemon that deals very little damage and takes a very high amount - so the ratio for it would be very low (low number divided by high number).

Then there are Pokemon whose ratio is near 1 (i.e. they deal roughly the same amount of damage they are dealt). For example, Alakazam deals very high damage but is dealt a lot of damage as well, whereas Bronzong deals little damage but is dealt a low amount of damage too. Both of these Pokemon's ratios would be similar, even though they are obviously very different Pokemon.


While it is true that mmeta cannot sweep significant portions of the enemy team due to lack of setup, nor can it wall significant portions of the meta due to common weaknesses and lack of recovery, his combination of immediate power and considerable bulk allows it to deal far more damage to the enemy team then it takes itself on a very consistent basis, very much like aegislash. Overall, this puts the users team at a considerable advantage over a non-mmeta using team, and that's very bad. Therefore, I am pro-ban.
 
i'm slightly tilting on my view atm cos i explained to a fren the condition of ou and what role mega meta plays on the tier, and i wasn't very supportive of it when i read through what i said so ye O_o
i'm still primarily anti-ban cos
1) i believe it should've been given a bit more time after gren ban
2) some of the pro-ban arguments are unsatisfactory(though mostly they're stronger than anti-ban)
3) reflecting on 2, i see some guys too ban-happy(we'll ban meta, then next thing, then the next we don't care)
i was going though the teambuilder and i agree that we have limited a list of what can possibly check/counter meta(and can be used on more than one archtype), and how it can get around its said check/counter.
I still believe that besides the master set of STABs/Hammer Arm/Grass Knot its coverage is pretty specific and can be easily abused, and from team preview you can try to decipher what coverage it might/might not have(i like to think of it like in dpp you'd predict opp's last mon).
Also i dont like how both sides are using arguments like "20% chance to boost/flinch" and "10% chance to miss", guys pls be a bit more logical rather than referring to RNG, many users who're split on Mega Meta try to make up their mind by reading your posts, and those type of posts aren't helpful.
And regarding the broken vs. improving the meta logic i'd like to read more cos that's interesting to ponder over while making up mind.
Sorry if it was a waste of a post, but these are my current thoughts.
 
Also i dont like how both sides are using arguments like "20% chance to boost/flinch" and "10% chance to miss", guys pls be a bit more logical rather than referring to RNG, many users who're split on Mega Meta try to make up their mind by reading your posts, and those type of posts aren't helpful.

That makes it seem as if those guys didnt play in the mega-kanga era. 20% to boost on a 90% move is not overpowered at all. Now, PuP doubling his Attack, was.

I haven't played that much so i cant say if i agree or not with the meta ban. Regarding the "we are ban-happy" argument, i honestly kinda like it, even though i am a old player (10 years of pokemon). It changes stuff really often, and allows new threats to appear. Also, our metagame is already based on forced curves and arbitrary numbers already... might as well use it to revolve things a little bit.
 
1 Thing I've seen alot since my last post is nothing can OHKO it. However we are missing the point that vary rarely will it be on full health. It's on 94% after rocks, and presuming it gets hit on the switch for, let's say 20%, it's within the KO range of the offensive answers to it, as well as uninvested Victini etc. We are, despite being well informed of game situations, relying on pure statistics to say it's broken. Give me multiple replays of high ladder sweeps V prepared teams and I might change my mind, but considering my main ORAS team only has 1 solid check and 1 slightly shaky check (Bisharp + MegaToise) and me not thinking "MegaMeta breaks my team pretty badly, I need to do something about it" meakes me think it isn't broken. Bear in mind this team.is a webs team that is nowhere near complete and Megagross is immune to webs prior to megaing due to clear body and also carries Sylveon.

TL:DR: Megagross will not always be full health, so stop assuming so. With 2 checks/revenge killers, it isn't much of an issue. Even if one of your checks loses to GK variants and the other EQ, you can beat it if you play better than your opponent, which you should do if you deserve to win.
 
AS much as I want Metagross to stay, I find nothing can safetly take a hit from it. Metagross just hits too hard. The only one I see that can safely take hit from it (and can actually do something back) is Slowbro, but some people like to run Grass Knot (course I don't because I find ice punch SOOOOOO much better). I guess another counter is Charizard X:

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 450-530 (149.5 - 176%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-256 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not that it can take repeated damage but Charizard can eat AT LEAST one EQ and then one-shot it but that is just my opinion.

So far I am leaning towards Ban because nothing can safetly take a hit and hi it back besides a small few.
 
Mega Metagross may have very few hard stops, but I can think of many other pokemon that don't have any at all. While I'm not saying they're as bulky/fast as Mega Metagross, having very few counters isn't the sole reason why something should go.

please don't put words in my mouth. my claim is that mega metagross should go because it's way too much. it's too good at too many things. speed tier/offensive power of offensive threats like gengar with bulk of mons like skarm. on top of that, extremely spammable stabs and all the coverage it needs to boot. built in life orb etc. i've posted why several times. he's just too much. can you handle him? yes, but you could handle salamance too. all you needed was scarf noivern duhhhh

i was responding to someone who was comparing charizard-x to mega metagross and i think it's very clear that charizard x isn't even nearly as bad as megagross. if you'd like i could go into as much detail as possible to illustrate why charizard-x and megagross are not comparable.

I made a big tl;dr post about why I don't think it's banworthy but the short version is: if you're having trouble with Mega Metagross (more than you would any other top threat,) you're just not trying. Don't want to use one of its few hard stops? Then stack checks to it. And when I say that, I don't mean "you need three niche answers to it!", I mean that you should take it into consideration as much as you would Keldeo, Latios, Thundurus, Bisharp, etc. And it's honestly much easier to stack checks against it than any other top pokemon, there's quite a few that fit many archetypes.

i think that list is interesting. let's look at something. keldeo gets bopped by lati and lati can switch in on the current best set (sub cm) for days and force it out. lati gets bopped by bisharp and disregarding the rare EQ/hp fighting sets (which, while they're there, i feel as though it's not particularly prominent due to lati being one of the more diverse mons in the tier goes as far as viable movesets) he can also switch in on it for days. keldeo has the pleasure of switching in on bisharp. and barring knock off sets, lati gets thundurus real nice (thundurus being one of the hardest mons to switch into in the meta imo, and i wouldn't be opposed to a suspect test...don't know if i'd be pro or anti ban but a test would not hurt).

then there's mega metagross. who literally demolishes every single one of those threats on the switch if it wants to.

i don't think they're comprarable.

Oh and X-zard was able 2HKO like 95% of the XY meta. The number of stuff that could avoid a 2HKO is very, very small (use the one vs. all calc if you wish), and that's only when it runs STAB moves. X-zard has excellent STAB coverage, Mega Metagross does not, what can check it depends entirely on its coverage moves meaning it's very easy to find a combination of two, good to excellent pokemon that handle every (rational) set that it can run, as well as making the Metagross user have to take more chances when they click an attack. And while X-zard did need to boost its speed in order to truly be a threat, a boosted X-zard has a far greater capacity to ruin a team than Metagross does.

the "only when it runs stab moves" italics section means little because DD 3 attacks was not particularly common and while it could work, it's severely outclassed. zard isn't scizor, he can't just forego roost without needing a fuckton of team support. what this means is your standard zard either had dual stab or 1 stab + eq. also, metagross does have excellent stab coverage, he has an amazing neutral-hitting typing which is GOOD. on top of that zard's most powerful stabs either locked him in or made him take damage whereas megagrosses give him a flinch chance/attack boost (never forget about priority too yum).

also you suggesting that i run 2 softchecks to cover his coverage is part of the problem. with zard i could just put slowbro on a team and bam. with megagross, you apparently think it's acceptable that i have to take up 1/3rd of my team just to cover that one threat, when i have other threats to be worrying about. (and really a zard x with a choice band and a choice scarf without being movelocked is more threatening than megagross? i'm not trying to sound condescending but...yeah..)

but i'll take you up on this offer. let's see how many mons could switch in on zard x:
Azumarill
Cresselia
Gyarados (if bulky)
Heatran (if no EQ)
Hippowdon
Manaphy
Porygon 2
Swagsire
Rotom-W
Slowbro
Suicune
Tyranitar
Amoongus (if lacking fire punch/flare blitz for EQ)
Chansey (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Chesnaught (if lacking fire punch/flare blitz for EQ)
Clefable (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Ferrothorn (if lacking fire punch/flare blitz for EQ)
Gliscor (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Lando-t (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Mandibuzz (if lacking flare blits for EQ or for fire punch)
i'm bored....and i'm done. i think my point is proven (if you can't tell i was going alphabetically so you know there's more, such as scizor if lacking fire coverage).

And now please keep in mind a couple of things. This was compiled only by using the 1 vs all and it neglects a lot of things. For example: terrakion gets 2hko'd but threatens it out. It's ignoring offensive checks that may get 2hko'd but can capitalize on the switch. Talonflame, for example, helped against zard but couldn't switch in. Also, I never calced without EQ...that would change things i'm sure. I did calc for Dragon Claw instead of Outrage because Outrage locked him in and that presented another slew of problems for zard. etc etc
 
pokemon-omega-ruby-alpha-sapphire-shiny-mega-metagross.jpg
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False, Metagross has viable counters I'll get to that in a minute. To really emphasise how restrictive Metagross's coverage options really are I'd have to bring in Greninja, and compare them.
Greninja was the previous pokemon suspect tested and it was given the boot with an 82% majority vote. Greninjas insane coverage, coupled with an amazing ability and tremendous power. The thing with greninja is that all of its moves were viable. It could run any of it's moves, it all depended on your teams weaknesses. Metagross is similar ON PAPER. In practise it's actually very restricted and it can't function as a glue like Greninja does. The first two move slots are taken up by Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt. Metagross needs its duel stabs to break through the common OU mons that would otherwise beat it. The third move slot is occupied by Hammer arm or Earthquake for steel types, hammer arm is the better option. The final move slot is a mix between Ice punch and Grass knot. So that's what you're left with. Yes, a lot of the metagame are 2HKO'd between those but that's also a problem. Mega Metagross lacks the ability to flat out OHKO pokemon, Greninja could do this. A large portion of the OU metagame, even on HO team have the ability to live one hit. That is why it's power is super super great. it's just not amazing. It 2HKO's 95% but OHKOS 5%. And I know what you're thinking, stealth rocks. But in this meta with defog and rapid spin stealth rocks and hazards are difficult to keep up.

People have also been mentioning it being impossible to counter and that's just not true. Before I go any further I'd like to say that these counters are even fully viable in OU, not some porygon2 shit from mence-greninja age[/hide

Stall

Slowbro

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Slowbro: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

It's not really an issue, Mega Metagross will often switch out fearing T-wave or Scald, so you're free to get your regenerator boost. Countered.

Skarmory

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Skarmory switches in, immediately goes for Counter killing of Mega Metagross, Skarmory is left at roughly 50%. Countered

Balance

Scizor

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 107-127 (31.1 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Scizor casually sets up SDs while roosting of the damage and then finishing it up with a Knock off. Countered

+6 84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 442-520 (146.8 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Starmie

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 122-144 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Starmie reflect types and the burns it. Countered

Hyper offense

Victini

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 238-280 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Metagross is then killed by a V-create

That's the only Counter on HO, unfortunately. However, we have Bisharp and Landorus-T to mention a few. Both have a chance to OHKO Metagross, and an even greater one with some prior damage.


112dilh-1.png


So the guy who posted the above image probably made the best argument against banning Mega Man. People have been saying that Fairies will be OP if Mega man goes, and that's true! It's not like it will be replaced because nothing is as bulky and as powerful. It checks fairy offence. And Fairy offense checks Sableye stall. And Sableye stall checks Mega man Offense. If you were to remove any one of these pokemon the playstyle it checks will be overpowered. Either you ban all three of them(That might also include Altaria, Gardevoir and Slowbro) or you ban none of them. That's it.

TLDR: Mega Metagross's bulk and power is great, but not amazing. Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye check each others playstyles in a perfect trifecta. You ban one, the next will be OP so either ban none or ban all of them.
 
AS much as I want Metagross to stay, I find nothing can safetly take a hit from it. Metagross just hits too hard. The only one I see that can safely take hit from it (and can actually do something back) is Slowbro, but some people like to run Grass Knot (course I don't because I find ice punch SOOOOOO much better). I guess another counter is Charizard X:

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 450-530 (149.5 - 176%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 216-256 (72.7 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Not that it can take repeated damage but Charizard can eat AT LEAST one EQ and then one-shot it but that is just my opinion.

So far I am leaning towards Ban because nothing can safetly take a hit and hi it back besides a small few.
please don't put words in my mouth. my claim is that mega metagross should go because it's way too much. it's too good at too many things. speed tier/offensive power of offensive threats like gengar with bulk of mons like skarm. on top of that, extremely spammable stabs and all the coverage it needs to boot. built in life orb etc. i've posted why several times. he's just too much. can you handle him? yes, but you could handle salamance too. all you needed was scarf noivern duhhhh

i was responding to someone who was comparing charizard-x to mega metagross and i think it's very clear that charizard x isn't even nearly as bad as megagross. if you'd like i could go into as much detail as possible to illustrate why charizard-x and megagross are not comparable.



i think that list is interesting. let's look at something. keldeo gets bopped by lati and lati can switch in on the current best set (sub cm) for days and force it out. lati gets bopped by bisharp and disregarding the rare EQ/hp fighting sets (which, while they're there, i feel as though it's not particularly prominent due to lati being one of the more diverse mons in the tier goes as far as viable movesets) he can also switch in on it for days. keldeo has the pleasure of switching in on bisharp. and barring knock off sets, lati gets thundurus real nice (thundurus being one of the hardest mons to switch into in the meta imo, and i wouldn't be opposed to a suspect test...don't know if i'd be pro or anti ban but a test would not hurt).

then there's mega metagross. who literally demolishes every single one of those threats on the switch if it wants to.

i don't think they're comprarable.



the "only when it runs stab moves" italics section means little because DD 3 attacks was not particularly common and while it could work, it's severely outclassed. zard isn't scizor, he can't just forego roost without needing a fuckton of team support. what this means is your standard zard either had dual stab or 1 stab + eq. also, metagross does have excellent stab coverage, he has an amazing neutral-hitting typing which is GOOD. on top of that zard's most powerful stabs either locked him in or made him take damage whereas megagrosses give him a flinch chance/attack boost (never forget about priority too yum).

also you suggesting that i run 2 softchecks to cover his coverage is part of the problem. with zard i could just put slowbro on a team and bam. with megagross, you apparently think it's acceptable that i have to take up 1/3rd of my team just to cover that one threat, when i have other threats to be worrying about. (and really a zard x with a choice band and a choice scarf without being movelocked is more threatening than megagross? i'm not trying to sound condescending but...yeah..)

but i'll take you up on this offer. let's see how many mons could switch in on zard x:
Azumarill
Cresselia
Gyarados (if bulky)
Heatran (if no EQ)
Hippowdon
Manaphy
Porygon 2
Swagsire
Rotom-W
Slowbro
Suicune
Tyranitar
Amoongus (if lacking fire punch/flare blitz for EQ)
Chansey (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Chesnaught (if lacking fire punch/flare blitz for EQ)
Clefable (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Ferrothorn (if lacking fire punch/flare blitz for EQ)
Gliscor (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Lando-t (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Mandibuzz (if lacking flare blits for EQ or for fire punch)
i'm bored....and i'm done. i think my point is proven (if you can't tell i was going alphabetically so you know there's more, such as scizor if lacking fire coverage).

And now please keep in mind a couple of things. This was compiled only by using the 1 vs all and it neglects a lot of things. For example: terrakion gets 2hko'd but threatens it out. It's ignoring offensive checks that may get 2hko'd but can capitalize on the switch. Talonflame, for example, helped against zard but couldn't switch in. Also, I never calced without EQ...that would change things i'm sure. I did calc for Dragon Claw instead of Outrage because Outrage locked him in and that presented another slew of problems for zard. etc etc

Saying that you can sue Amoongus as a check for Char X if he is lacking a Fire move is the same as if I say that you could use Fairies to check Megagross if he is lacking Meteor Mash, which is completely absurd.

I have read very good arguments about pro-ban, I won't deny it, I am not trying to be rude or anything, but I don't feel this is one of those.

Also when you saig that you could ''just put Slowbro on a team and bam'', it is completely untrue, there are cases of CharX using Outrage because of this, and I don't see a Slowbro being able to take 2 consecutive hits of Outrage,I know this is not exactly the topic to talk about that, but I just wanted to point that it is unfair to compare CharX against Megagross when your argument relies about it not running a fire-move and Megagross always running every coverage move.
 
View attachment 35801 View attachment 35802


False, Metagross has viable counters I'll get to that in a minute. To really emphasise how restrictive Metagross's coverage options really are I'd have to bring in Greninja, and compare them.
Greninja was the previous pokemon suspect tested and it was given the boot with an 82% majority vote. Greninjas insane coverage, coupled with an amazing ability and tremendous power. The thing with greninja is that all of its moves were viable. It could run any of it's moves, it all depended on your teams weaknesses. Metagross is similar ON PAPER. In practise it's actually very restricted and it can't function as a glue like Greninja does. The first two move slots are taken up by Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt. Metagross needs its duel stabs to break through the common OU mons that would otherwise beat it. The third move slot is occupied by Hammer arm or Earthquake for steel types, hammer arm is the better option. The final move slot is a mix between Ice punch and Grass knot. So that's what you're left with. Yes, a lot of the metagame are 2HKO'd between those but that's also a problem. Mega Metagross lacks the ability to flat out OHKO pokemon, Greninja could do this. A large portion of the OU metagame, even on HO team have the ability to live one hit. That is why it's power is super super great. it's just not amazing. It 2HKO's 95% but OHKOS 5%. And I know what you're thinking, stealth rocks. But in this meta with defog and rapid spin stealth rocks and hazards are difficult to keep up.

People have also been mentioning it being impossible to counter and that's just not true. Before I go any further I'd like to say that these counters are even fully viable in OU, not some porygon2 shit from mence-greninja age[/hide

Stall

Slowbro

0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 156+ SpD Slowbro: 146-172 (37 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

It's not really an issue, Mega Metagross will often switch out fearing T-wave or Scald, so you're free to get your regenerator boost. Countered.

Skarmory

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 90-106 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Skarmory switches in, immediately goes for Counter killing of Mega Metagross, Skarmory is left at roughly 50%. Countered

Balance

Scizor

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Hammer Arm vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Mega Scizor: 107-127 (31.1 - 37%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

Scizor casually sets up SDs while roosting of the damage and then finishing it up with a Knock off. Countered

+6 84 Atk Mega Scizor Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 442-520 (146.8 - 172.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Starmie

252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 122-144 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Starmie reflect types and the burns it. Countered

Hyper offense

Victini

252 Atk Mega Metagross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 238-280 (69.7 - 82.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mega Metagross is then killed by a V-create

That's the only Counter on HO, unfortunately. However, we have Bisharp and Landorus-T to mention a few. Both have a chance to OHKO Metagross, and an even greater one with some prior damage.


View attachment 35803

So the guy who posted the above image probably made the best argument against banning Mega Man. People have been saying that Fairies will be OP if Mega man goes, and that's true! It's not like it will be replaced because nothing is as bulky and as powerful. It checks fairy offence. And Fairy offense checks Sableye stall. And Sableye stall checks Mega man Offense. If you were to remove any one of these pokemon the playstyle it checks will be overpowered. Either you ban all three of them(That might also include Altaria, Gardevoir and Slowbro) or you ban none of them. That's it.

TLDR: Mega Metagross's bulk and power is great, but not amazing. Mega Metagross, Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye check each others playstyles in a perfect trifecta. You ban one, the next will be OP so either ban none or ban all of them.


Mega Metagross is the one and only thing holding back the fairies from absolutely devouring OU. Banning a long list of fairies is ridiculous, so better to leave Mega Metagross in the Metagame, especially when he isn't broken in the first place.

I agree on the three mega syndrome. If you ban M-Gross, M-Diancie will destroy M-Sableye, and likewise for each mega. But, for countering M-Gross, Skarmory can't do a thing back to M-Gross. All it can possibly do is whirlwind it out, which is just delaying the inevitable sweep that is going to occur if you don't have one of the more dedicated checks, like slowbro, who threatens M-Gross with Scald and it's burn.

I do think Mega Gross should stay. It has it's fair share of checks and counters, and I agree with others on this subject. It's just not broken.

Don't Ban.
 
Saying that you can sue Amoongus as a check for Char X if he is lacking a Fire move is the same as if I say that you could use Fairies to check Megagross if he is lacking Meteor Mash, which is completely absurd

but...hu...wha..what?

HOW is that even remotely the same thing?! the single most dominant and threatening zard set was DD. there were a few versions of DD zard-x. Generally speaking, Zard packed roost because it forced switches and could heal up rocks damage. On top of that, Flare Blitz wore it down (it being its most powerful stab move) and so roost helped even if rocks weren't up so that its sweep wasn't stopped early due to Flare Blitz recoil.

Without EQ there were plenty of things that walled it. There was one primary mon that did this, Heatran. Heatran would come in and roar and toxic and set up rocks and do whatever the hell it wanted.

Players that still wanted to have an offensive DD sweeper that had reliable recovery that wasn't hard-stopped by one of the most common rockers in the entire meta would give up fire coverage for EQ....this was extremely common. Tell me, how many Megagross's have you seen without MM? Can you think of even one solid reason to not have MM? Because Zard-X not packing fire coverage was extremely common and I've just explained why it isn't absurd to calc for Zard without fire coverage.

Oh and to answer that other part: I'm the one saying NOT to compare zard-x and Megagross because Zard-X is just not as busted by a mile.


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I think Mega Metagross should not be banned.
Reasons being that it is the best counter to fairies which are hard to kill. Even though it can hit hard and fast, Mega Slowbro and Mega Sableye can tank its bullet punches fairly well and Mega Sableye can priority Will-o-wisp Mega Metagross and its almost useless to Mega Sableye. There are few counters to Mega Metagross but its the fact that Fairies are hard to kill and without Mega Metagross to prey on them Mega Altaria and Mega Gardevoir would be destroying the OU metagame.
The second reason being that Mega Metagross would get owned in the Ubers metagame because of the Mega Mewtwo X/Y and Scarfed/Specs Genesect can Burn Techno Drive and crippling it and Mega Metagross can't do a thing to it.
These are my reasons why Mega Metagross should not be banned.
 
Just some thoughts on Mega Metagross (though many people have already thought along the same lines):

In all honestly, I have to say that Mega Metagross is versatile and strong. The combination of power, bulk and speed not only allows it to smash stuff but also makes it very difficult to revenge kill. There really aren't many offensive answers to this thing. This thing barely has any switch ins. The standard 4 attacks set can cause some real destruction against balance and offense.

Ice Punch lets you break past Lando-T and Gliscor far more easily. Can outspeed and OHKO Keldeo using zen headbutt. You really can't do much to this thing on offense. Unpredictable movepool of various moves like grass knot happens to screw up our well-known "counters" like Slowbro and Hippowdon. Because of this, even a team prepared for Mega Metagross can still lose to it depending on its set, the issue of "what set does it freaking run?" causes another big headache anyway. it is almost impossible to know what set it is running (unless you played that fellow before), and you are just forced to blindly guess and hope for the best.

In addition of the element of surprise, as what people before me have highlighted, another potential advantage lies in the fact that it is capable of weakening what is supposed to be your check against certain threats, which makes you more prone.

However, a pokemon with insane speed, balanced stats, and has ways of reducing almost all its counters into checks. Moreover, providing good synergy in terms of defense, it mainly gives offensive/hyper-offensive teams an advantage since you can’t expect mega metagross to be run on Stall or most Balanced teams in the first place. I honestly don’t think that something like this should remain in the OU metagame.

Ban
 
Guys, I'm pretty sure if we are resorting to Arcanine to counter M-Metagross, we have problems.
Nothing switches into Mega Metagross, and enjoys it. It has several viable options to support its team, while heavily denting the opposing one. People usually only think Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot, Hammer Arm as its only moveset, but it has more options. Earthquake, Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, Pursuit, even Hidden Power Fire is a viable option to get past M-Scizor. Plus with the release of Custap Berry, hazard stacking is even easier than before, and no hazard remover can safely switch into Mega Metagross. So with Custap released, you can get both SR up, as well as a layer of Spikes, making a lot of switch-ins into Megagross a lot less reliable.
And may I ask, was Counter Skarmory a viable set before ORAS? If not, would it be a good set without Mega Metagross?

And people who think that Metagross is the best Fairy counter are out of their minds. Heatran 4x resists Fairy, is very bulky, hits hard back, and these fairies rarely carry a coverage move to hit it. Plus, we have plenty of more fairy checks, like Mega Scizor, Victini, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Talonflame etc. Metagross is just the most popular fairy answer, not the best.

I am going to have to go with Ban here, Metagross has a lot of viable options to deal with its counters, the new releases work in its favor, and fairies won't run rampant without it.
 
I'd like to preface by saying that when pokemon have absurd base stats all across the board it really infuriates me (see Aegislash, except Megagross has the added benefit of the much-coveted 110 base Speed). Now even though this was one of the reasons why I agreed with Aegislash's ban, I think it lends further weight to my opinion that Megagross does not deserve to be banned.

As has been posted previously, it has very many checks and about a handful of counters, many of which are even greatly viable in OU. This late in the thread it's really pointless to even list them all again.

Even despite it having counters, I think the very notion of a pokemon needing 100% counters is outdated, and has been since around BW. This is the age of beating things with cores.

Let me expand on that: I am going to bring up the XY Mega Mawile suspect test here, because I feel I can make a highly relevant comparison between these two suspect tests. Both suspects are Steel types with Steel typing, absolutely ridiculous offensive presence, awesome pre-Mega Abilities, and respectable if not downright absurd bulk. Now M-Mawile was known to have no counters or very niche counters, and that's all well and good. But it could be beaten with common cores. There was no way it was muscling past Scarf Lando-T/M-Manectric, and on the more defensive end of the spectrum it had big trouble against VenuTran, although to a lesser extent considering SubPunch. But for the most part these are reliable cores that beat M-Mawile most of the time. The point I'm trying to make is to move away from the notion of one pokemon countering a threat, and more toward good cores countering the threat. Mega Manectric and Lando-T also have this distinction against Megagross as it were.

I was also wondering how the characteristics of an Uber relate to these suspects. It was pretty much agreed that Gross doesn't fit them, but I believe WebBowser showed that it fits 1 out of 4 of the characteristics. If it fits one is it Uber material? Is it up to the voter's discretion? I'd like some clarification on this point.

Also to keep the conversation going, up page a bit some people were drawing comparisons between Gross and Zard X. People listed a whole laundry list of "100% safe" switchins to Zard X and seemingly not taking into account the WoW set, which screws over literally any physical attacker on that list. Just thought I'd mention that.

Oh, and MuhFrigginMoose? I wouldn't blow a condescending kiss to Megagross just yet; I think you may come to find it isn't going anywhere. :pimp:
 
And people who think that Metagross is the best Fairy counter are out of their minds. Heatran 4x resists Fairy, is very bulky, hits hard back, and these fairies rarely carry a coverage move to hit it. Plus, we have plenty of more fairy checks, like Mega Scizor, Victini, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, Talonflame etc. Metagross is just the most popular fairy answer, not the best.
I don't want to derail the thread too much or anything, but Heatran practically loses to every Fairy bar Clefable and Klefki just because of the coverage moves they commonly run (focus blast, earth power and earthquake). MMeta is easily the best Fairy counter in the meta, since it can take their coverage moves fairly easy and hit back with Bullet Punch or Meteor Mash, which KO's them all apart from Azumarill
 
can you handle him? yes, but you could handle salamance too. all you needed was scarf noivern duhhhh

You don't need to use garbage sets or garbage pokemon to handle Metagross.

the "only when it runs stab moves" italics section means little because DD 3 attacks was not particularly common

It only has two STABs???

also you suggesting that i run 2 softchecks to cover his coverage is part of the problem. with zard i could just put slowbro on a team and bam. with megagross, you apparently think it's acceptable that i have to take up 1/3rd of my team just to cover that one threat

Slowbro counters Metagross so long as it has some SDef investment (156+ for 0% chance of 3HKO after SR.) You literally CAN put Slowbro on your team and "bam." Or Slowking. Or you can run fully defensive Slowbro and run something that can check sets that don't carry Ice Punch. When I say "stack checks to it" I do not literally mean dedicate half your team to checking it, I mean that if you find that your team is weak to Metagross then you make adjustments, like you would other top threats.

Azumarill
Cresselia
Gyarados (if bulky)
Heatran (if no EQ)
Hippowdon
Manaphy
Porygon 2
Swagsire
Rotom-W
Slowbro
Suicune
Tyranitar
Amoongus (if lacking fire punch/flare blitz for EQ)
Chansey (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Chesnaught (if lacking fire punch/flare blitz for EQ)
Clefable (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Ferrothorn (if lacking fire punch/flare blitz for EQ)
Gliscor (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Lando-t (if lacking flare blitz for EQ or for fire punch)
Mandibuzz (if lacking flare blits for EQ or for fire punch)

Things like Rotom-W and Suicune can "switch in" (Rotom is 2HKOed tho) but then what? What do they do back? X-zard can heal damage. Metagross can't. And lol at "if it's not running Fire STAB." I mean if you're listing Ferrothorn as anything that resembles "does not get BTFO by majority of X-zard's", then I think I'm fine listing Jirachi, Victini, Slowking/SDef Slowbro, Hippowdon, Skarmory, Ferrothorn, bulky Garchomp, Scizor, Starmie, Gliscor, etc. etc. as checks to Mega Metagross. Because they are.

Oh and to answer that other part: I'm the one saying NOT to compare zard-x and Megagross because Zard-X is just not as busted by a mile.

Did you think that X-zard was as busted around a year ago, in the early XY meta? Cause a lot of people did, along with Mega Pinsir. I really think it's a fair comparison, both are very powerful threats that have a huge capacity to damage a team; but with X-zard, we actually gave time for people to adapt to it.
 
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Seriously are people so Damm scared of fairies? That is one of the most shallow arguments I have heard... Honestly I have seen puddles in public bathrooms with more substance...

They are fine, there is no need for a team building crutch like Mega Metagross, people keep repeating the same adapt to it and that there are counters (I agree they might be restrictive but not unviable like with previous suspects since they can form cores) to no end, and although I admit that premega he is lackluster as hell and can be forced out with relative ease(Greninja had this going as well) yet that didn't stop him from fulfilling it's role and ensure a kill or a broken core on the other side.

This ends up in an argument of wich metagame one likes the most, some people prefer the status Quo of the Holy trinity of Diancie Metagross and sableye and proceed to raise fallacies about how removing one element will cause a Banfest risking their team building process while ignoring the fact that this so called trinity is nothing more than the faces of a hidden match up reliant metagame with nothing but clutches on team building standards. Or those who are tired of hearing trinity metagame and recognize the first strong element of this 3 legged stool,be for the right reasons or for the baseless claim that their fairies would sweep(wich as proved in the ladder just doesn't freaking happen).

There is no reason to be afraid of a broken status Quo, the blasted ladder is a proof of how the metagame without Metagross is developed, there are a couple of low rating guys spamming fairies due to the new toy syndrome, but in reality new elements of the metagame have risen making it a little bit more diverse.

In my experience with the ladder I'm enjoying this metagame so I beg of you... Stop thinking in such a retrograde way, keeping an unhealthy element to prevent the rose of a trend is not how we are supposed to conduct the suspect process, if anything you should test the ladder by yourself, it's a reassuring experience on how the metagame evolves.

I keep my Stand as proban, on this suspect. And sorry if I sound rude, but it angers me that people make such mediocre arguments that actually hint on Metagross brokenness.

Claiming it keeps fairies on check means it's an overcentralizing presence restricting the team building process far beyond that the needed preparation of an S ranked treat.

Claiming that the Holy trinity must be kept to prevent future banning of dominant elements due to the clutch syndrome evidences the restrictive nature of that meta by making claims that a single element forces a team preview match up reliance, something smogon standards have been against and evidenced as hell on the BP clause.

No ban side, I respect you but please... Please see beyond the clutch aspect of a single pokemon and start seeing your arguments from the desired metagame point of view past the stagnant nature of the current status Quo some seem to claim.

Feel free to cherry pick as you quote given that some of my claims will be weird without their context, that doesn't exclude a faulted argument, nor the evidence of a stagnant metagame with an obvious match up reliance degree.
 
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