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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!
- Thread starter Rowan
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Is it honestly worth re-testing Krow/Missy though? We already had enough time to realize that those two mons were broken (5th gen, the XY LC meta). I can't think of anything really worth re-testing right now. If as you said the metagame is balanced, why would we want to retest mons that are proven to be overpowering?
There is nothing currently banned that would make the metagame better if they were unbanned.
I see nothing really sooooo broken in the tier, mienfoo and pawniard are very healthy to the metagame, I see no good reason to ban them because all have become accustomed to them, perhaps gothita would be a strong candidate, but I think not have a good reason. oh and btw, I can vote for re-test a Pokemon? :s
because the metagame shifts over time? Remember that people wanted to suspect Diglett at one point because fletchdig existed. I actually see room for yanma in this meta now.
the metagame balancing is a domino effect. missy was banned pre-ORAS and while there weren't groundbreaking things introduced in the shift from XY to ORAS, even the little things contribute to either improving and deteriorating the meta. plenty could hinder missy in the current meta and we wouldn't know without giving it an experimental run. it wouldn't hurt much, especially since we're in a pretty well balanced meta atm with nothing too sheer to suspect
Why implement the 3 BP Mon Clause? Full BP teams are pretty bad, auto-losing to a lot of things and even if you somehow aren't carrying something that beats it, it's not very hard to play around. If it is really an issue, teams are basically the same 6-mons and you can pretty easily patch it up. But full BP is extremely predictable.
Metagame shifts effect viability and such but it's pretty absurd to say that shifting of the metagame makes a former broken Pokemon OK to use. Remember, it was banned from a metagame that was adapted SPECIFICALLY to counter it. It's illogical to thing it somehow has gotten better.
If you guys are bored go play tetris or something but don't try and compromise a balanced metagame just because you want to "spice things up".
lmao bp can beat all of those things people have said. sure it has a bad matchup vs some teams but i can provide replays of all of those arcetypes and threats losing to bp even in the hands of good players. like earlier i thought of an idea to help bp beat whirlwind hippo, specifically asked kektus to bring a hippo team and i still won by playing aggressively. the fact that bp forces many teams to rely specifically on luck to beat it means that it should be limited in my opinion.
I'm taking on fullpass as well (infamy gets it) Since there is nothing that I think needs to be banned, and since we are having a test, I figure i should just go after the bane of my existence. BP clause lez go
In all seriousness, I would say a partial BP team is almost more threatening than full BP; you can add things to deal with SD Fletch, Roar Onix, etc etc etc. It makes it versatile and incredibly dangerous. IMO, we dont really need a BP clause, but it really wouldn't hurt anyone (except me rip in pass)
I don't think that BP is by any means broken. It's not terribly difficult to account for it in teambuilding and to make sure you can deal with most variants decently well. One way I have personally have dealt with it was by just using Toxic Spikes and pressuring the very rare Spinarak/Venonat on these teams. I agree with Sammy-kun-sama in that if BP were to be suspected, the only reason should be because of its negative impact of the player's experience. Battling against Baton Pass is a frustrating and long process that just comes down to if your team was prepared for it or if you can get a little lucky. Nobody likes battling against it. I've seen players that are new to LC face a BP team in a room tournament or on the ladder and question why LC doesn't have a BP clause and they very obviously get turned off to LC as a whole.
Infamy whether or not BP makes the meta less fun is actually relevant. The main criteria for a suspect test/ban is whether the thing is broken, whether it is making Little Cup not fun, or whether a combination of the two is deterring individuals from playing Little Cup.
Infamy whether or not BP makes the meta less fun is actually relevant. The main criteria for a suspect test/ban is whether the thing is broken, whether it is making Little Cup not fun, or whether a combination of the two is deterring individuals from playing Little Cup.
thats what i meant infamy about suspect tests. its pretty much the same thing. Im sorry about the no skill thing though, but it does kinda not take much effort to do. You can literally sit there and follow the same pattern for most teams that you come across. The one time out of 30 battles that i broke the pattern that i usually did was when this one guy lead with scarf foo, which is a pretty rare lead from my experience. Its not really over centralizing though, but it does make for an unfun experience on the receiving end.
Wait, Rowan said that we need to ladder in order to nominate what gets suspected. How does he know that?
Wait, Rowan said that we need to ladder in order to nominate what gets suspected. How does he know that?
I also don't think anything needs to go. Diglett and Gothita are the most annoying Pokemon in the meta but they're far from broken, Berry Juice is only really annoying on Archen and Munchlax, and everything else is pretty stable. I would live with this meta forever if I could.
no having fun absolutely is not important in the suspect process. the purpose is to ensure that overcentralizing and/or uncompetitive strategies are removed from play in order to create a healthy metagame. a healthy metagame is not necessarily fun, and there are many individuals who have fun using many different strategies. i agree bp should be limited, but you guys are using the wrong logic to go about doing it.
also, im currently working on a seekret project of sorts related to bp, and i have replays saved up for that of bp beating everything you says checks it. set up sweepers? yes. whirlwind hippo? yup. crits? yes indeed. all of these things you claim check bp can be played around without compromiskng the integrity of the team.
also, im currently working on a seekret project of sorts related to bp, and i have replays saved up for that of bp beating everything you says checks it. set up sweepers? yes. whirlwind hippo? yup. crits? yes indeed. all of these things you claim check bp can be played around without compromiskng the integrity of the team.
I agree with OP a lot here. Fortunately, BP hasn't run rampant due to being quite the gimmick. However when it is encountered, it certainly is not fun to play against particularly when a team comes unprepared. I think its at least worth considering during this test whether or not BP is a fun-killer, as OP said. It's important to remember that a well built BP team in the hands of a skilled player, can even be challenging even when a team is prepared. I've seen infamy's team beat teams carrying hippo. I think it's safe to say baton pass is neither broken or even all that difficult to beat if you play smart and are prepared for it, however i think it could become quite the turn off to the LC ladder and LC in general if it became more commonly used.
oh and btw if fun is supposed to be a major factor in suspects, i move to ban mienfoo. its not fun to use except maybe the scarfhjk set. it is not fun to fight against due to its sets being boring and its not fun to use because it is so versatile it hurts my head when i think of what set to use and my head hurting is not fun. ban it please.
e: ban chou too its boring because it only clicks volt switch and boring things arent fun.
e: ban chou too its boring because it only clicks volt switch and boring things arent fun.
In keeping with this, if we find that the ladder gets too terrible, I'd suggest just a partial BP ban, probs at three. We wouldn't need to go too far on this imo
EDIT: also, tspikes and leech seed are the absolute bane of bp teams. leech seed is literally impossible to get rid of on bp
In my opinion the Metagame is very balanced right now, there's no need to ban anything and I don't want to retest anything. Well, I miss the Missy era, but i don't think it is retest-worthy unless you want to do another suspect (OMG MISSY IS BROKEN!!).
This tier is perfect like this, every Pokemon has its own checks and counters, the most-used are balanced and innovation is still possible (I think I've showed enough underrated Pokemon in some of my battles). So what can we change from a balanced Meta like this one? Nothing. I feel like I have done enough battles in this tier to say that, changing the Metagame right now would be a great mistake. I don't usually post my thoughts in this thread, but I thought that this time it was necessary.
In addition
All the things you mentioned aren't so good in LC, I mean Baton Pass autoloses to Pawn and Fletch tbh, just check the SPLC usage if you want to have some confirms about how much BP chains are used. And it can be annoying, but it's a playstyle like bulky offense or stall. "I don't want that player to play stall because he's so annoying when he uses it" - that's the same thing; just bring a counter for the Pokemon you feel that are "annoying"
The aim of Suspect Test is to avoid what is centralizing and broken, not what is annoying or "uncompetitive" - if you believe the BP is uncompetitive.
This tier is perfect like this, every Pokemon has its own checks and counters, the most-used are balanced and innovation is still possible (I think I've showed enough underrated Pokemon in some of my battles). So what can we change from a balanced Meta like this one? Nothing. I feel like I have done enough battles in this tier to say that, changing the Metagame right now would be a great mistake. I don't usually post my thoughts in this thread, but I thought that this time it was necessary.
In addition
All the things you mentioned aren't so good in LC, I mean Baton Pass autoloses to Pawn and Fletch tbh, just check the SPLC usage if you want to have some confirms about how much BP chains are used. And it can be annoying, but it's a playstyle like bulky offense or stall. "I don't want that player to play stall because he's so annoying when he uses it" - that's the same thing; just bring a counter for the Pokemon you feel that are "annoying"
The aim of Suspect Test is to avoid what is centralizing and broken, not what is annoying or "uncompetitive" - if you believe the BP is uncompetitive.
I agree with you, I don't think it's a good idea. I remember I don't stand up for its banning at that time. But I remember I was really wrong and what Missy could do with its NastySub's set, too.
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I really don't feel like BP is busted in any shape or form in LC. Unlike OU which had multiple tools to essentially prevent BP from being wrecked, LC doesn't have the convenience. First off, we only have 1 Magic Bouncer, so that puts a lot of pressure on it to do any sort of job well, and it leaves ample opportunity for Taunt/Encore/WW/Roar to just mess everything up. LC is also a lot more aggressive, so even after boosts, some Pokemon aren't taking hits overly well. Knock Off can completely wreck a team because losing Evio/BJ is huge to maintaining the chain. As mentioned earlier, hazards, particularly Tspikes, ruin a chain. I might be able to think of some more but that's all that's coming to mind atm.
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