Ik that, I was just telling him that his information was wrong...
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-02/moveset/ou-1825.txt
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
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Ik that, I was just telling him that his information was wrong...
http://www.smogon.com/stats/2015-02/moveset/ou-1825.txt
I never said that Offensive mixed was for beating offensive teams, did you ever read my post? I made it pretty clear, I think, when I said "Mixed sets aren't used for beating offence, obviously."
Regarding your Landorus-T calc, I've looked at it for a while and i think I get what you're trying to say (kinda), though I was referring to max Attack Scarf Landorus. This is why you run defensive investment, to ensure that you set up on common answer to Dragon Dancers.
Maybe all of its sets do have flaws, but they aren't as bad as you're making out at all, and that isn't the point. Point is, it has the ability to run a multitude of great sets (ok DDD isn't the best but w/e), all of which serve different roles. As I stated before, the Steel-type issue is being way blown out of proportion, as there are hardly any Steels that can directly switch into and successfully wall MAlt. I won't repeat myself on this, just go and do some calcs. I don't see how Clefable is that big of a problem, seeing as it takes a fuckload from Hyper Voice, Return, or +1 Return. There was a post earlier on about Fairies vs. MAlt, I might edit it in in a second. Here you go.
You comparison between Banded Azu and MAlt is completely laughable and fallacious, though I imagine people have already responded to it, let me show you how silly it looks:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 246-289 (64.5 - 75.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 322-379 (84.5 - 99.4%)
"Oh my god, ZardX is SO weak!"
Regarding your Landorus-T calc, I've looked at it for a while and i think I get what you're trying to say (kinda), though I was referring to max Attack Scarf Landorus. This is why you run defensive investment, to ensure that you set up on common answer to Dragon Dancers.
Maybe all of its sets do have flaws, but they aren't as bad as you're making out at all, and that isn't the point. Point is, it has the ability to run a multitude of great sets (ok DDD isn't the best but w/e), all of which serve different roles. As I stated before, the Steel-type issue is being way blown out of proportion, as there are hardly any Steels that can directly switch into and successfully wall MAlt. I won't repeat myself on this, just go and do some calcs. I don't see how Clefable is that big of a problem, seeing as it takes a fuckload from Hyper Voice, Return, or +1 Return. There was a post earlier on about Fairies vs. MAlt, I might edit it in in a second. Here you go.
You comparison between Banded Azu and MAlt is completely laughable and fallacious, though I imagine people have already responded to it, let me show you how silly it looks:
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 246-289 (64.5 - 75.8%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Hustle Darumaka Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 322-379 (84.5 - 99.4%)
"Oh my god, ZardX is SO weak!"
Let's get this discussion back on track. Edited out the obnoxious, pixilated sprite. It looked good on my phone, I swear.
A -> A-
Because it's free talk right now, I'd like to get some opinions on this. I'm not totally on-board with this myself but it just more or less popped into my head.
Mega Gallade simply isn't as good as the rest of the A rank. It has a decent match-up against any given playstyle, but it doesn't really excel against any of them. It's a jack of all trades, master of none. Stall teams, where it would seem most at home against (as in, due to great coverage, Fighting STAB and quick boosting), have Unaware Clefable and the ever present Mega Sableye, both of which shut it down. It's more easily pressured against offensive teams due to its so-so bulk and general lack of resistances. Other base 110s either have the massive bulk (Metagross) or the mixed prowess and speed boosting ability (Diancie) to be effective against offense. The presence of Talonflame also limits its ability to set-up because otherwise it gets checked on the SD. Bulky Offense can, well, do what BO does: take a boosted hit and hit it back hard.
That leaves it with balanced teams. It does well against balanced teams, yes, but does it really break balanced at the level of Char-Y, Gard, or Pinsir? Not really in my experience. There's a ton of strong balanced breakers out there now, and when you especially look at the non-Mega options (Kyurem-B, faster Manaphy, Landorus-I, etc.) it really doesn't seem worth it. Gallade seemed like a great mon in theory when it was first released, but in practice it's really underwelming and just doesn't put in much work. Gallade often ends up just acting as the token Fighting type, and that's a pretty easy role to fill without the Mega oppertunity cost.
A -> A-
Because it's free talk right now, I'd like to get some opinions on this. I'm not totally on-board with this myself but it just more or less popped into my head.
Mega Gallade simply isn't as good as the rest of the A rank. It has a decent match-up against any given playstyle, but it doesn't really excel against any of them. It's a jack of all trades, master of none. Stall teams, where it would seem most at home against (as in, due to great coverage, Fighting STAB and quick boosting), have Unaware Clefable and the ever present Mega Sableye, both of which shut it down. It's more easily pressured against offensive teams due to its so-so bulk and general lack of resistances. Other base 110s either have the massive bulk (Metagross) or the mixed prowess and speed boosting ability (Diancie) to be effective against offense. The presence of Talonflame also limits its ability to set-up because otherwise it gets checked on the SD. Bulky Offense can, well, do what BO does: take a boosted hit and hit it back hard.
That leaves it with balanced teams. It does well against balanced teams, yes, but does it really break balanced at the level of Char-Y, Gard, or Pinsir? Not really in my experience. There's a ton of strong balanced breakers out there now, and when you especially look at the non-Mega options (Kyurem-B, faster Manaphy, Landorus-I, etc.) it really doesn't seem worth it. Gallade seemed like a great mon in theory when it was first released, but in practice it's really underwelming and just doesn't put in much work. Gallade often ends up just acting as the token Fighting type, and that's a pretty easy role to fill without the Mega oppertunity cost.
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See, I honestly still run Max Spe so i can outspeed MDos and MAlt at +1, but yes, max atk will lose to MAlt.
No, its sets arent bad. I only make them seem bad because im on the opposing end. If you're a salesman, would you say that your car (for example) cant go more than 60 mph?
Steel types can switch in decently on MAlt, and these arguments are really hard to boil down because its all about prediction. What if it goes for EQ? What if it doesnt? It's really hard to talk about Steels not taking on MAlt in that case.
I find it funny that people think Fairies take on MAlt, the only one that can is Unaware Clef, which cant switch in and has a 0.4 chance to be KO'ed without rocks.
192+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Honestly im climbing back with my Azu to MAlt comparison, but since MAlt is getting a 1.3x boost we can still compare with a Life Orb (which you shouldnt use on Azu)
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 211-250 (61.8 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 231-274 (67.7 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I mean, it does more, but I have to agree with you to an extent.
Darumaka tho.
Mega Altaria does not run 192+ Atk, that is an arcane spread. Altarias run 252+ Atk so the calc looks like this:
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mega Alt getting the 1.3x boost is just part of its natural power. Slapping a Life Orb onto Azumarill to match the power doesn't make any sense since nobody runs LO Azu.
252+ Atk Pixilate Mega Altaria Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 186-220 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Mega Alt getting the 1.3x boost is just part of its natural power. Slapping a Life Orb onto Azumarill to match the power doesn't make any sense since nobody runs LO Azu.
What a stupid way to calculate. Since this pokemon has a higher base attack stat than this pokemon, we'll give pokemon B a 33% attack boost. Alright guys? Yeahh....
Why are we comparing MAltaria to Azumarill now? Stop that shit. Anyways, someone mentioned Gallade
Let's get this discussion back on track.
A -> A-
Because it's free talk right now, I'd like to get some opinions on this. I'm not totally on-board with this myself but it just more or less popped into my head.
Mega Gallade simply isn't as good as the rest of the A rank. It has a decent match-up against any given playstyle, but it doesn't really excel against any of them. It's a jack of all trades, master of none. Stall teams, where it would seem most at home against (as in, due to great coverage, Fighting STAB and quick boosting), have Unaware Clefable and the ever present Mega Sableye, both of which shut it down. It's more easily pressured against offensive teams due to its so-so bulk and general lack of resistances. Other base 110s either have the massive bulk (Metagross) or the mixed prowess and speed boosting ability (Diancie) to be effective against offense. The presence of Talonflame also limits its ability to set-up because otherwise it gets checked on the SD. Bulky Offense can, well, do what BO does: take a boosted hit and hit it back hard.
That leaves it with balanced teams. It does well against balanced teams, yes, but does it really break balanced at the level of Char-Y, Gard, or Pinsir? Not really in my experience. There's a ton of strong balanced breakers out there now, and when you especially look at the non-Mega options (Kyurem-B, faster Manaphy, Landorus-I, etc.) it really doesn't seem worth it. Gallade seemed like a great mon in theory when it was first released, but in practice it's really underwelming and just doesn't put in much work. Gallade often ends up just acting as the token Fighting type, and that's a pretty easy role to fill without the Mega oppertunity cost.
Completely agree. It's a great pokemon but it really does suck in the metagame as it is.
For the lols
252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darumaka: 268-316 (95.3 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
I though we used Mew when comparing damage? :(
Yea, I honestly dont know why I was comparing Azu to MAlt... It's kinda lame to compare a CB mon to a Mega.
Then again, they both do literally completely different things.
Then again, they both do literally completely different things.
Ok.
Slowking is in C+
This needs to be fixed ASAP.
Slowking for A-
Yeah, I think its really that good. I'm know many tour players and what not already know of this godly set, but for those of us who are slower at catching on to anti-meta shit (I just toyed with this shit yesterday myself and was blown back..) I'll make my case.
The only set i've used is AV, and i can't claim to have extensive experience with it anyway, but i can assure you it isn't necessary to know that this thing is a beast.
So why, do you ask, am I pushing slowking for such a gigantic leap? Well, put bluntly, the AV set literally checks half of everything relevant. Mega metagross, keldeo, diancie, lando-i, heatran, manaphy (w/out energy ball ofc), Starmie, Mzam, and many many more that i'm missing.
If it wasn't enough that ONE MON is hard checking ALL 3 S RANK MONS, then throw in mega diancie in there too, possibly the hardest mon to check. I really fail to see how such a good mon is hiding down in C
This thing isn't a sitting duck either, its movepool is gigantic with plenty of shit to choose from, like psyshock, scald, gknot, future sight, flamethrower, ice beam, dragon tail, and power gem (lets it beat char-y). With only 248/96 bulk it more or less does its job, leaving plenty of investment into special attack to make slowking actually have an offensive presence. And with a vast movepool its keeping its common switch-ins like ferrothorn or lati on its toes. I can especially vouch for the effectiveness of future sight, being buffed to 120 power lets you perform as an amazing hit and run mon.
Ofc, this thing has regenerator, which makes it quite difficult to wear down. Slowking doesn't have to wear AV either; it can use specs to dish out BIG damage and leftovers to be able to slack off and t-wave and what not.
The main thing that annoys me is its weakness to pursuit, but ttar doesn't enjoy switching into scald and bisharp doesn't like switching into flamethrower, so with good plays+prediction the pursuit can be avoided.
ofc, slowking doesn't counter all of these threats (mmeta has pursuit, diancie invested diamond storm hurts, lando-i knock off hurts, etc) But even being able to check so many prominent mons is just ridiculous.
Basically, slowking is downright fucking amazing, hard checking all 3 S rank mons and actually having offensive presence to round it all off. Bump the king straight up to A- :]
Slowking is in C+
This needs to be fixed ASAP.
Slowking for A-
Yeah, I think its really that good. I'm know many tour players and what not already know of this godly set, but for those of us who are slower at catching on to anti-meta shit (I just toyed with this shit yesterday myself and was blown back..) I'll make my case.
The only set i've used is AV, and i can't claim to have extensive experience with it anyway, but i can assure you it isn't necessary to know that this thing is a beast.
So why, do you ask, am I pushing slowking for such a gigantic leap? Well, put bluntly, the AV set literally checks half of everything relevant. Mega metagross, keldeo, diancie, lando-i, heatran, manaphy (w/out energy ball ofc), Starmie, Mzam, and many many more that i'm missing.
If it wasn't enough that ONE MON is hard checking ALL 3 S RANK MONS, then throw in mega diancie in there too, possibly the hardest mon to check. I really fail to see how such a good mon is hiding down in C
This thing isn't a sitting duck either, its movepool is gigantic with plenty of shit to choose from, like psyshock, scald, gknot, future sight, flamethrower, ice beam, dragon tail, and power gem (lets it beat char-y). With only 248/96 bulk it more or less does its job, leaving plenty of investment into special attack to make slowking actually have an offensive presence. And with a vast movepool its keeping its common switch-ins like ferrothorn or lati on its toes. I can especially vouch for the effectiveness of future sight, being buffed to 120 power lets you perform as an amazing hit and run mon.
Ofc, this thing has regenerator, which makes it quite difficult to wear down. Slowking doesn't have to wear AV either; it can use specs to dish out BIG damage and leftovers to be able to slack off and t-wave and what not.
The main thing that annoys me is its weakness to pursuit, but ttar doesn't enjoy switching into scald and bisharp doesn't like switching into flamethrower, so with good plays+prediction the pursuit can be avoided.
ofc, slowking doesn't counter all of these threats (mmeta has pursuit, diancie invested diamond storm hurts, lando-i knock off hurts, etc) But even being able to check so many prominent mons is just ridiculous.
Basically, slowking is downright fucking amazing, hard checking all 3 S rank mons and actually having offensive presence to round it all off. Bump the king straight up to A- :]
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 128-151 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 90-108 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- 59.4% chance to 4HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 154-182 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 124-147 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 102-121 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 228-270 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Tough Claws Mega Metagross Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 90-108 (22.9 - 27.4%) -- 59.4% chance to 4HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 154-182 (51.1 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Slowking: 124-147 (31.5 - 37.4%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 242-288 (74.9 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 96 SpD Assault Vest Slowking: 102-121 (25.9 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
164+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Diancie: 228-270 (94.6 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
I agree that Slowking should rise but A- is really high Srn .That Pursuit weakness is more relevant than you would think and Slowkings lack of physical bulk in comparison to his counterpart is a noticeable trait that can't be ignored. All those flaws you stated are still prevalent enough to where it hinders Slowkings capabilities when you consider the trends and cores a lot of these are associated with, such as Manaphy + M-Metagross and the fact attack investment is a legitimate aspect that can be used with M-Diancie. If I had to rank Slowking I would put it at B/B+ but yes regardless I do believe that it should rise. It's definitely not garbage and definitely not C rank material so yeah a bump up is a necessity at this point.
Definitely agree here.hydra has an absolute field day against stall and bulky offense. It struggles a bit against offense due to its speed but, there's always the Scarf sets and a lot of things in offense are going to be chocie locked, eg Keldeo locked into Scald or Scarf Chomp or Lando locked into EQ, which let Hydra come in and get a pretty much guaranteed kill.
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Malamar is a Pokemon I never really thought would see OU usage, but I've been testing it lately and Knock Off was actually a very large buff. A simple spread of Superpower / Knock Off / Rest / Sleep Talk works wonders and I've been a lot more impressed by the set than I expected. At first I thought of Malamar as a gimmick Pokemon, but now it's growing on me. Superpower is excellent to accumulate boosts, and Malamar actually has a pretty solid Special Defense when fully invested. For example, Thundurus's Thunderbolt is a 3HKO, Choice Specs Keldeo's Scald is a 3HKO, Mega Diancie's Moonblast does not OHKO it, Mega Houndoom's Fire Blast is a 3HKO, and so on, just to illustrate its bulk. After just one Superpower, Malamar can live all kinds of hits. For example, the following hits are 3HKOes now, Mega Lopunny's High Jump Kick, Mega Metagross's Meteor Mash, Talonflame's Brave Bird, and so on. Malamar preys on weakened teams and excels versus slower teams because Superpower is just very good. It's a very niche Pokemon, and of course has its flaws, but I believe it should be added to D Rank.
At this point I'm not sure where Gallade should go but I will point out that it has 2 pretty great advantages over the other 2 wallbreakers currently residing in A. Firstly, its speed. The difference between 110 and 100/105 is pretty huge, this enables it to outspeed Keldeo and tie with Latis, Gengar, and Diancie, which can really matter in a pinch. The second is resistance to SR. YZard and Pinsir both pretty much require SR support, and although that isn't too much of a problem if you can give it to them, it's still a teambuilding constraint, and the freedom of not needing a spinner or defogger helps a ton.
However, it is absolutely true that it is less threatening to current balance builds, or at least more difficult for it to switch into, given that balanced teams have Clefable, defensive MAltaria, MSableye, and MSlowbro as good options for handling it. That being said, balance teams also commonly feature scarf Tyranitar which can easily act as a check to YZard and MPinsir or at least a deterrent against them spamming their powerful STABs. Gallade drop seems like a real possibility but personally it still feels like A material.
Kedleo should IMO stay S rank simply because of how ridiculously easy it is to fit on a team. Yes, it does have pretty good counters, but the combination defensive and offensive prowess makes it very hard not to use on offense, bulky offense and even a lot of balanced teams. Besides, most of these counters are pretty easy to take advantage of, either by Pursuit support or a strong Fire or Flying type. Putting a Keldeo on your team is so rarely a bad idea atm that I don't really see it dropping.
I'd like to support Azelf rising to B if I haven't already. Azelf is a case of a really good Pokemon on a playstyle which is struggling, hyper offense. And though HO isn't great atm, and Azelf isn't really usable on non-HO teams, almost every good HO team I have seen at this point of the metagame featured an Azelf on it. It is simply the best dedicated rock setter on HO, only really rivaled by Garchomp, which is held back by its low speed, and the fact that it needs to run Lum Berry for Sableye which prevents it from guaranteeing rocks. So yeah, bump Azelf up to B, it's pretty much the Chansey of HO.
I never really understood why Diggersby was A-, it really seems more on par with the B+ ranks to me. Yes, you can argue that it thrives in a bulkier metagame, but despite its raw power, it often struggles to get past some of the physically bulky Pokemon Balanced teams are employing atm, namely Hippowdon, Celebi, (which outspeeds adamant Diggersby), Fatchomp, Slowbro and MSlowbro, Chesnaught, and Phys Def Scizor who is gaining a ton of popularity. Superpower TTar is also pretty common on Balance and acts as a nice check to it. I do realise that we're pretty much emptying A- rank atm, but Diggersby doesn't really strike me as superior to Breloom or Terrakion.
unfixable do you have any replays of Malamar in action? No-one has ever used this in OU so it's pretty important for us to see what this thing can potentially do.
However, it is absolutely true that it is less threatening to current balance builds, or at least more difficult for it to switch into, given that balanced teams have Clefable, defensive MAltaria, MSableye, and MSlowbro as good options for handling it. That being said, balance teams also commonly feature scarf Tyranitar which can easily act as a check to YZard and MPinsir or at least a deterrent against them spamming their powerful STABs. Gallade drop seems like a real possibility but personally it still feels like A material.
Kedleo should IMO stay S rank simply because of how ridiculously easy it is to fit on a team. Yes, it does have pretty good counters, but the combination defensive and offensive prowess makes it very hard not to use on offense, bulky offense and even a lot of balanced teams. Besides, most of these counters are pretty easy to take advantage of, either by Pursuit support or a strong Fire or Flying type. Putting a Keldeo on your team is so rarely a bad idea atm that I don't really see it dropping.
I'd like to support Azelf rising to B if I haven't already. Azelf is a case of a really good Pokemon on a playstyle which is struggling, hyper offense. And though HO isn't great atm, and Azelf isn't really usable on non-HO teams, almost every good HO team I have seen at this point of the metagame featured an Azelf on it. It is simply the best dedicated rock setter on HO, only really rivaled by Garchomp, which is held back by its low speed, and the fact that it needs to run Lum Berry for Sableye which prevents it from guaranteeing rocks. So yeah, bump Azelf up to B, it's pretty much the Chansey of HO.
I never really understood why Diggersby was A-, it really seems more on par with the B+ ranks to me. Yes, you can argue that it thrives in a bulkier metagame, but despite its raw power, it often struggles to get past some of the physically bulky Pokemon Balanced teams are employing atm, namely Hippowdon, Celebi, (which outspeeds adamant Diggersby), Fatchomp, Slowbro and MSlowbro, Chesnaught, and Phys Def Scizor who is gaining a ton of popularity. Superpower TTar is also pretty common on Balance and acts as a nice check to it. I do realise that we're pretty much emptying A- rank atm, but Diggersby doesn't really strike me as superior to Breloom or Terrakion.
unfixable do you have any replays of Malamar in action? No-one has ever used this in OU so it's pretty important for us to see what this thing can potentially do.
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I don't agree with Gallade dropping. I realize that the hype has died down and that Gallade is somewhat easy to check, but he's still a really good mon and has the potential to put in a lot of work against certain types of teams, and that alone imo is worth being in A. These types of teams I'm referring to are these FerroTran / Ferro | Gliscor | Slowbro balance teams that are running everywhere, because after an SD, Gallade is able to take on all of these relatively easy (he SDs vs Ferro btw). I'm aware that these teams have a fighting check, but Gallade is found on teams that are able to handle these mons, and the amount of team support it requires is roughly the same of Mega Pinsir or Mega Charizard Y. Gallade is objectively slightly worse than these guys, but it's not to the point where he's a whole sub rank lower than them. A rank fits him perfectly, even if he's nearing the bottom of it. He should stay put.
Just posting my thoughts on recent posts:
Gallade to drop: Agree. MLop is far better than Gallade in the current meta, it outspeeds a very relevant bunch of threats, including Raikou, Starmie, Torn-T etc, who can be taken out when weakened because of this. MGallade struggles against these mons because they outspeed (Raikou kills with shadow ball, Torn-T with hurricane and Starmie fills it's role of spinning). It just isn't very good in this meta, even though it's a very good poke.
Slowking's Placement: I think, due to it's great bulk, utility, ability and the relevance of the stuff it checks, should go to B+. The same rank as Amoonguss, another good regen pivot with spore, but less things of relevance it checks, seems like a good rank for it. It is way too underated in the ranks of irrelevant, niche pokes when it's niche is checking extremely relevant meta threats.
Malamar to D: It is terrible against all playstyles. It's offensive set is basically unviable, but it has a near decent stallbreaker set that can beat MEye and toxic Gliscor. However, so many better pokes do the same. It is too frail and slow to do anything in OU. It doesn't need ranking.
Gallade to drop: Agree. MLop is far better than Gallade in the current meta, it outspeeds a very relevant bunch of threats, including Raikou, Starmie, Torn-T etc, who can be taken out when weakened because of this. MGallade struggles against these mons because they outspeed (Raikou kills with shadow ball, Torn-T with hurricane and Starmie fills it's role of spinning). It just isn't very good in this meta, even though it's a very good poke.
Slowking's Placement: I think, due to it's great bulk, utility, ability and the relevance of the stuff it checks, should go to B+. The same rank as Amoonguss, another good regen pivot with spore, but less things of relevance it checks, seems like a good rank for it. It is way too underated in the ranks of irrelevant, niche pokes when it's niche is checking extremely relevant meta threats.
Malamar to D: It is terrible against all playstyles. It's offensive set is basically unviable, but it has a near decent stallbreaker set that can beat MEye and toxic Gliscor. However, so many better pokes do the same. It is too frail and slow to do anything in OU. It doesn't need ranking.
Gallade should never be compared to Lopunny as aside from both being Fighting types they serve completely different roles. Lopunny serves as anti-offense, outspeeding and KOing frailer Pokemon on offensive teams, Gallade is a wallbreaker that can serve as a setup sweeper in a pinch due to its speed. Ofc if you judge it by its ability to beat things like Raikou and Starmie Gallade will pale in comparison to Lopunny but you're completely ignoring its ability to fuck over defensive mons like Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Chesnaught, Celebi etc. after a boost.
Sorry if this post was poorly formated I'm on my phone.
Sorry if this post was poorly formated I'm on my phone.
Malamar: Unranked ---> D Rank
Malamar is a Pokemon I never really thought would see OU usage, but I've been testing it lately and Knock Off was actually a very large buff. A simple spread of Superpower / Knock Off / Rest / Sleep Talk works wonders and I've been a lot more impressed by the set than I expected. At first I thought of Malamar as a gimmick Pokemon, but now it's growing on me. Superpower is excellent to accumulate boosts, and Malamar actually has a pretty solid Special Defense when fully invested. For example, Thundurus's Thunderbolt is a 3HKO, Choice Specs Keldeo's Scald is a 3HKO, Mega Diancie's Moonblast does not OHKO it, Mega Houndoom's Fire Blast is a 3HKO, and so on, just to illustrate its bulk. After just one Superpower, Malamar can live all kinds of hits. For example, the following hits are 3HKOes now, Mega Lopunny's High Jump Kick, Mega Metagross's Meteor Mash, Talonflame's Brave Bird, and so on. Malamar preys on weakened teams and excels versus slower teams because Superpower is just very good. It's a very niche Pokemon, and of course has its flaws, but I believe it should be added to D Rank.
I am not convinced by this explanation that Malamar is worth D Rank, as most teams are well equipped to take on Malamar without even having to worry about it. Fairy Types are extremely dominant in OU, and Pokemon like Mega Altaria and Clefable are fully capable of stopping and even exploiting Malamar. U-turn spam is still highly prevalent, and the increasing usage of Volcarona does not help at all. The metagame may be adapting to Mega Sableye, but Malamar has no way of getting past it unless is severely weakened (by like a lot). Can you please please elaborate only why Malamar's proposed advantages outweigh its flaws enough to even warrant a ranking? Sure, D Rank is filled with garbage like Mega Glalie, Salamence, and Cloyster, but I feel you are just throwing calcs at us instead of providing real scenarios of how Malamar can actually put in work against an opposing team.
Hello guys, i would like to nominate this beautiful thing
from C- to C+
its has good defs with 85/80/80, lacking atk 70 and usable sp Atk 95 and amazing speed 123.
it may appear just an average good pokemon, but this thing is incredibly a mix up of utility and damage, thanks to its 2 usable abilities Frisk (its very useful to know the adversary itens) and Infiltrator ( good bye sub / shields) and double/triple battles with it HA Telephaty and thanks to its very good movepool. But the most selling points are Stab Hurricane and Switcheroo.
I see it in 3 types of teams, rain team, HO and stall breaker, all of them basically using similars sets:
Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Air Slash / Hurricane
- Flamethrower / Taunt / Boomburst / Shadow ball / U-turn
- Switcheroo
its super easy to predict that will switch to sp def wall or a fairy and cripple it with switcheroo
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uunoscald-217960511
and in case you dont mind to go all-out-attack, lets show some calcs
and again, im nomating it C+ treat, obviouly not S tier, i do really think this beast is on the same level as at least Cobalion, gastrodon, mega medichan, mega pidgeot and...... seismitoad ?? o.O
in the future, maybe i will try to raise it more, but right now, C- is too much underestimating.
its has good defs with 85/80/80, lacking atk 70 and usable sp Atk 95 and amazing speed 123.
it may appear just an average good pokemon, but this thing is incredibly a mix up of utility and damage, thanks to its 2 usable abilities Frisk (its very useful to know the adversary itens) and Infiltrator ( good bye sub / shields) and double/triple battles with it HA Telephaty and thanks to its very good movepool. But the most selling points are Stab Hurricane and Switcheroo.
I see it in 3 types of teams, rain team, HO and stall breaker, all of them basically using similars sets:
Noivern @ Choice Specs
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Air Slash / Hurricane
- Flamethrower / Taunt / Boomburst / Shadow ball / U-turn
- Switcheroo
its super easy to predict that will switch to sp def wall or a fairy and cripple it with switcheroo
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uunoscald-217960511
and in case you dont mind to go all-out-attack, lets show some calcs
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 246-289 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 313-369 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 326-386 (100.9 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 313-369 (79.4 - 93.6%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 313-369 (81.9 - 96.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 326-386 (100.9 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Slowbro: 313-369 (79.4 - 93.6%)
and again, im nomating it C+ treat, obviouly not S tier, i do really think this beast is on the same level as at least Cobalion, gastrodon, mega medichan, mega pidgeot and...... seismitoad ?? o.O
in the future, maybe i will try to raise it more, but right now, C- is too much underestimating.
While I do believe Noivern is a C- threat just due to Infiltrator, Switcheroo and a speedy Taunt, in no way is it higher than that. Its defenses are actually shit. It certainly won't be taking any super effective or strong neutral hits any time soon. Secondly, its offensive presence is bad. 97 Special Attack won't be hitting very hard any time soon, even with Specs. 70 Attack is bad too, and it doesn't eve have a lot of good physical moves to back that up. Not to mention that is has to rely on the shaky Hurricane to do any sort damage, and Draco Meteor lowers its Special Attack, meaning it pretty much has to switch afterwards, and combine all of these aspects with a huge Stealth Rock weakness and no time to Roost, C- seems fine for it, and it's lucky to have that.
Also, Telepathy is absolutely useless in OU. This isn't doubles, plus, the replay you showed was for UU. UU is a way different metagame. Not to mention that Noivern literally did nothing except Switchroo, which doesn't take much skill. Frankly, there is little reason to use Noivern over something like Latios, except for the mentioned fast Taunt.
Also lol did you just compare Noivern to Mega Pidgeot and if you did then no I can't take you seriously
Also, Telepathy is absolutely useless in OU. This isn't doubles, plus, the replay you showed was for UU. UU is a way different metagame. Not to mention that Noivern literally did nothing except Switchroo, which doesn't take much skill. Frankly, there is little reason to use Noivern over something like Latios, except for the mentioned fast Taunt.
Also lol did you just compare Noivern to Mega Pidgeot and if you did then no I can't take you seriously
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lets see, again, im not asking him to raise to latios tier, even thought noivern kills latios and yes, i really think noivern is same level than mega tweet, is faster before/later mega evolving, dont use mega slot, can use hurricane/air slash, flamethrower in heat wave place, Hidden power, u-turn as mega pidgeot + bonus of using switcheero, focus blast, draco meteor, boomburst, shadow ball, taunt and again, 1x1 scenario, noivern kills mega pidgeot.
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 313-369 (101.6 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Noivern: 244-288 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
in rain team, the mega slot is almost guaranteed to mega swampert, you can use noivern + tornadus
252 SpA Choice Specs Noivern Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pidgeot: 313-369 (101.6 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Noivern: 244-288 (78.4 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
in rain team, the mega slot is almost guaranteed to mega swampert, you can use noivern + tornadus
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Except that Noivern CAN'T use all those moves you mentioned at once. Missing out on one move leads to it being walled by many common Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Chansey, Ferrothorn, etc. Noivern can beat Mega Pidgeot and Latios 1v1, but that doesn't mean it should get a raise. Noivern best way of dealing damage is Draco Meteor and Hurricane; Draco Meteor lowers it's Special Attack so it'll just have to switch out and lose momentum right after it nets a KO, while Hurricanes 70% accuracy isn't reliable. Also why were you showing a UU replay, and why were you even talking about Telepathy? Noivern's niches are Switcheroo and Frisk, nothing beyond that. Mega Pidgeot has a 100% accurate Hurricane, the ability to change moves, and is a very reliable late game cleaner.
Also Noivern is ass on rain teams.
I just realised that Rhyperior is B- rank. It really should be lower IMO.
Rhyperior rose in viability in XY almost solely due to it being a great birdspam check, but with birdspam decline it is almost toally outclassed by Tyranitar.
I honestly think it should be unranked but that may be too harsh. However, I don't think it should be any higher than C.
Rhyperior rose in viability in XY almost solely due to it being a great birdspam check, but with birdspam decline it is almost toally outclassed by Tyranitar.
I honestly think it should be unranked but that may be too harsh. However, I don't think it should be any higher than C.
Rhyperior is also one of the best counters to Zard X, which is actually extremely hard to counter these days. Rhyperior still remains a great physical wall with some nice support options such as Dragon Tail, Stealth Rock, and Toxic. I think Rhyperior is fine where it is, it remains one of the best counters to Zard X and other physical attackers such as your avatar.
I don't agree with dropping Rhyperior. By virtue of its massive bulk, solid typing, Solid Rock ability, and movepool, it's able to fill a lot of roles for defensive teams. First, yes, all-out birdspam is on the decline. However, solo SD Talonflame is on the rise, and while many of CB Talonflame's checks cannot handle the SD set, Rhyperior still handles it impeccably. Second, again, while Mega Pinsir is on the decline, it's still a big threat, and Rhyperior is a great check to it. Additionally, Rhyperior is able to check other threatening Pokemon in the tier such as Mega Manectric, Superpower Tornadus-T, Mega Beedrill, and Raikou. However, I think the most important reason I still consider Rhyperior a B ranked threat is how well it handles Mega Charizard X, which, like firehusky said, is very hard to 100% counter. Rhyperior may not check any of the S ranked threats, but it's still capable of handling a unique array of hard-to-check, while simultaneously acting as a reliable Stealth Rock setter, and I don't think a drop to C+ is right.
Probably gonna get bashed for this, but whatever.
Anyways, I really think normal Aerodactyl should be ranked on this list, it's actually a decent suicide lead.
Unranked ---> D
Normal Aerodactyl faces lots of competition as a suicide lead from Azelf. Azelf has Skill Swap, allowing it to get past magic bouncers such as Mega Sableye, while also having Explosion to gain momentum after it has done its job. However, I think Aerodactyl, while for the most part outclassed, does have some niche uses. One of these niche uses is its fantastic speed. This allows it to outpace just about every other suicide lead such as Garchomp and the extremely common Azelf, and basically shut them down with its fast taunt. It can run Focus Sash to pretty much get up guaranteed SR, while after being brought down to its sash, it can kill itself with Double Edge or whatever suicide move it learns and stop Rapid Spin and Defog.
While I'm not asking for Aerodactyl to go to B or C, I think D wouldn't be too bad, as its high speed + Taunt is actually a good reason to use it over Azelf, as this enables it to basically beat any suicide lead. A guaranteed taunt against the opposing lead and the fact that it can get up guaranteed SR against pretty much any team is actually quite important, and this is also taking into account the fact that HO teams are very common atm. Azelf does have Explosion and Skill Swap over Aerodactyl, but a fast taunt is what Aerodactyl has over Azelf, so I think that's a legitimate reason for it to be ranked.
Anyways, I really think normal Aerodactyl should be ranked on this list, it's actually a decent suicide lead.
Unranked ---> D
Normal Aerodactyl faces lots of competition as a suicide lead from Azelf. Azelf has Skill Swap, allowing it to get past magic bouncers such as Mega Sableye, while also having Explosion to gain momentum after it has done its job. However, I think Aerodactyl, while for the most part outclassed, does have some niche uses. One of these niche uses is its fantastic speed. This allows it to outpace just about every other suicide lead such as Garchomp and the extremely common Azelf, and basically shut them down with its fast taunt. It can run Focus Sash to pretty much get up guaranteed SR, while after being brought down to its sash, it can kill itself with Double Edge or whatever suicide move it learns and stop Rapid Spin and Defog.
While I'm not asking for Aerodactyl to go to B or C, I think D wouldn't be too bad, as its high speed + Taunt is actually a good reason to use it over Azelf, as this enables it to basically beat any suicide lead. A guaranteed taunt against the opposing lead and the fact that it can get up guaranteed SR against pretty much any team is actually quite important, and this is also taking into account the fact that HO teams are very common atm. Azelf does have Explosion and Skill Swap over Aerodactyl, but a fast taunt is what Aerodactyl has over Azelf, so I think that's a legitimate reason for it to be ranked.
Probably gonna get bashed for this, but w/e.
Unranked ---> D
Huntail faces lots of competition as a smashpass user from Gorebyss. Gorebyss has higher SpA, letting it be able to hit decently hard with Water STAB. However Huntail has access to Sucker Punch, so it can take out opposing threats trying to finish Huntail off with priority, and then manage to baton pass the boosts. Although this may not that much of an advantage over Gorebyss as some threats can still use non attacking moves to force 50/50 and also many priority users are resistant to Sucker Punch, this still gives it a decent niche over Gorebyss. It is also not that strong, so it cannot OHKO too much, but I still think D rank wouldn't be too bad, as Sucker Punch is actually a good reason to use it over Gorebyss, as this allows it to force mindgames with other priority users. Also it can outpace Scarfers with it(ex. Scarf Latios). Access to Sucker Punch is what Huntail has over Gorebyss, so I think that's a legitimate reason for it to be ranked.
Unranked ---> D
Huntail faces lots of competition as a smashpass user from Gorebyss. Gorebyss has higher SpA, letting it be able to hit decently hard with Water STAB. However Huntail has access to Sucker Punch, so it can take out opposing threats trying to finish Huntail off with priority, and then manage to baton pass the boosts. Although this may not that much of an advantage over Gorebyss as some threats can still use non attacking moves to force 50/50 and also many priority users are resistant to Sucker Punch, this still gives it a decent niche over Gorebyss. It is also not that strong, so it cannot OHKO too much, but I still think D rank wouldn't be too bad, as Sucker Punch is actually a good reason to use it over Gorebyss, as this allows it to force mindgames with other priority users. Also it can outpace Scarfers with it(ex. Scarf Latios). Access to Sucker Punch is what Huntail has over Gorebyss, so I think that's a legitimate reason for it to be ranked.
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