Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[Srn]

Spring break is in a few days and I don't have too much homework, so I'll share my thoughts on some recent nominations:

Mega Medicham to B-
Agree. Mega Medicham has fake out which is nice priority allowing it to break sashes / sturdy, and revenge kill weakened pokemon with fake out + bullet punch. Balance teams don't have many switch ins to this monster, and it's probably one of the best physical wallbreakers out there. It has really limited switch ins (slowbro, slowbro mega, celebi, mew, doublade), whereas Mega Gallade is easier to check due to it's worse immediate power. Not saying that Mega Gallade doesn't hit hard, Close Combat coming off of 165 base attack hits like a truck, but it's just not comparable to Mega Medicham's power. Mega Gallade does have a better speed tier and knock off, allowing it to break past bulky psychics, but immediate power and priority are still things mega medicham has over mega gallade. Definitely deserves a raise imo.

Slowking to B- / B
Slowking has been rising in popularity, with really good players such as tesung and ox the fox using it, and for good reason. It's very bulky on the special side with an assault vest equipped, and can handle some really popular threats such as landorus-i lacking knock off, kelde, mega metagross. Regenerator is also a very nice ability, especially for an AV user as it can't use recovery moves. Scald is also very nice for a more specially oriented wall like slowking (compared to slowking), as it patches up it's worse physical bulk and overall bulk if it gets a burn.

Fetus Bear to C+ / B-
I recently started using Reuniclus, and it's actually not that bad. It's a monster against stall and slower balanced teams, as after it sets up 1 or 2 calm minds, it's very hard to break past, being immune to status, and having access to recover. On stall teams, this is also a monster, as stall teams usually have to have some way of beating other stall teams, be it stallbreakers or pokemon like Reuniclus. It can set up on a bunch of common defensive mons such as Ferrothorn and Rotom-W, and just steamroll opposing stall teams. This thing faces a bunch of competition from clefable as a CM magic guard user, but it sets up on different things and does have a access to Psyshock, which is actually very important, as it allows it to break past mons such as Chansey and Heatran without resorting to PP stall wars. Supporting this to move up.

Magneton to C+ / C
Magnezone is getting dropped, so Magneton should obviously drop too. Steel trapping isn't as good as it used to be, and the only real benefit magneton has over magnezone is outspeeding talonflame and tornadus-t, and it's not like that's such a huge advantage over magnezone, considering that magnezone is bulkier, hits harder, and can effectively run two sets, choice scarf and choice specs. Yeah just drop this thing, it really sucks.

Alakazam to C / C+
I agree with this. It can effectively run a sash set, and combined with magic guard, it's a great stop to set up sweepers as long as its sash isn't broken, thanks to focus sash + thunder wave. Sash sets are pretty much guaranteed to get two hits off, and against offense, this thing is usually taking down at least 2 mons thanks to it's solid speed tier and focus sash. Life Orb sets are also pretty cool. Great speed tier and solid special attack stat makes for a decent wallbreaker / cleaner, while also not taking recoil damage from life orb thanks to magic guard. This thing is really frail on the physical side, especially with all the priority running around, but I still feel its pros outweigh its cons so this should move up to C or C+, imo.

Scizor to B+
Scizor is great right now. CB sets are great revenge killers with bullet punch, and this makes it a effective check against fairy-types such as RP mega diancie and dd mega altaria. It's defensive typing is also pretty neat, leaving it with resistances to many types, and only one 4x weakness to fire-type moves. It's pretty slow, but this can also be a good thing as it allows it to get off a nice n slow u-turn, allowing it to bring in a frailer sweeper that doesn't want to take a hit. Fully support this.

Shaymin to D / C- / C
So after getting broken in half by a shaymin the other day, I decided to try this thing out, and it's actually pretty cool. Seed Flare is kinda comparable to contrary serperior and specs keldeo, as it can turn many checks / counters into checks thanks to it's I believe 50% chance (?) to drop special defense. Obviously, seed flare isn't as spammable as scald due to worse PP and less accuracy, but the secondary effect is still really scary. Earth Power is also nice as it has more base power than hidden power ground and it allows it to get past steels such as heatran and ferrothorn. If ferrothorn suffers a special defense drop on the switch, it's cleanly 2HKOed by modest LO earth power, which is nice. Granted, serperior can run hidden power to get past steels, but it kind of has to pick its poison. Run HP fire and be walled by Heatran, or run HP ground and get walled by ferrothorn. Shaymin also has a much better special attack than serperior, and seed flare is the reason why it's such a dangerous wallbreaker, as it allows it to muscle past many of it's would be checks and counters. Healing Wish and Rest are also two cool support options it can run. Rest combined with natural cure basically heals it back up to full health and it can cure it's status, as well as not being neutered completely by toxic and paralysis. Healing Wish is another thing to be considered, giving a sweeper another shot at sweeping, while also getting some momentum.

Metagross to D
Metagross should probably be ranked. Excellent check to fairies thanks to it's better special bulk than mega metagross when factoring in assault vest. It can comfortably take a draco meteor whereas other pursuit trappers such as bisharp and scarf ttar lose nearly half of their HP. Vanilla metagross is still a decent pursuit trapper and answer to fairies, so I think it should be ranked.

So yeah if you're more of a visual person and you didn't feel like reading that wall of text this is basically what I support:

---> B-

---> B- / B

---> C+ / B-

---> C+ / C

---> C / C+

---> B+

---> D / C- / C

---> D

really good players such as tesung and ox the fox using it

really good players

ox the fox

Good one.
;D

Mega Medicham to B-
Agree. Mega Medicham has fake out which is nice priority allowing it to break sashes / sturdy, and revenge kill weakened pokemon with fake out + bullet punch. Balance teams don't have many switch ins to this monster, and it's probably one of the best physical wallbreakers out there. It has really limited switch ins (slowbro, slowbro mega, celebi, mew, doublade), whereas Mega Gallade is easier to check due to it's worse immediate power. Not saying that Mega Gallade doesn't hit hard, Close Combat coming off of 165 base attack hits like a truck, but it's just not comparable to Mega Medicham's power. Mega Gallade does have a better speed tier and knock off, allowing it to break past bulky psychics, but immediate power and priority are still things mega medicham has over mega gallade. Definitely deserves a raise imo.

Idk, i don't believe double priority alone is really enough for mega medi to raise. If a balance team doesn't have a switch-in to mmedi, it probably doesn't have a good answer to mega gallade either, so idk about that argument. They pretty much have similar answers; except mgallade can actually break past psychics, and mmedi just tends to run ice punch more often. That's really the only significant difference imo. I'm not feelin any graet reasons for a raise personally.

As far as mmeta do D goes, the argument of comparing its effectiveness as a pursuit trapper vs scarf tar isn't rly a great one :L Its greater niche is pursuit trapping and fairy checking at the same time, which really only CB zor can boast, and that has to watch out for hp fire. I think this is a better niche to present.
That's just me tho
EDIT: meta, not mmeta lol

 

[firehusky]

Mega Gallade is much easier to check, mons like Unaware Clefable, bulky mega altaria, and tank garchomp are all pokemon that mega gallade has trouble fighting against. It can't 2HKO Clefable, and mega altaria has a 25% chance to KO gallade with hyper voice, while zen headbutt is only a 3HKO, tank garchomp can phaze out gallade if it tries to set up on it, and gallade takes a bunch of damage in the process.

Also I never talked about mega metagross o.O and I never said that it should drop to D. mmeta is fine where it is in S.

If you meant normal metagross, that's the exact point I was trying to say. It can check most fairies like mgarde and mega altaria, while also being able to pursuit trap the lati twins at the same time.

 

[heritage]

This has got to be short cause its late here, but why is Mega Tyranitar b-? While its low speed and multiple weaknesses may hold it back, it has insane bulk and power, as well as an expansive movepool to make use of. It's bulk gives it multiple opportunities to set up, and I seriously failing to see why it is ranked in the same rank as MEGA GARCHOMP of all things. Seriously, this thing can easily sweep unprepared teams. Certainly deserves a promotion to B.

The biggest problem, in my opinion, with Mega Tyranitar is its opportunity cost. Its a Mega Pokémon that does its job just slightly better than its non-mega form. The competition for a Mega slot is extremely fierce right now. Something you have to thing about is, why do I want to use Mega Tyranitar when I can use regular Tyranitar to do nearly the same thing and use another Mega? Tyranitar also has the option to hold an item such as Choice Scarf or Leftovers. Mega Tyranitar also shares the same issues as regular Tyranitar. Its bulk IS absolutely fantastic, but its typing is a bit of a double-edged sword. It's a great birdspam check, but it also leaves it weak to common attacking types such as Fighting and Water. It also has no form of reliable recovery, and since it can't even hold Leftovers, this issue is extremely persistent. Not to mention, even though it does get a Speed boost, 70 base Speed is not very good. After a Dragon Dance, even after a Rock Polish, Mega Tyranitar can still be outsped by common Scarfers such as Keldeo and the like.

However, Mega Tyranitar seems to get a bad reputation in my eyes. Its positives certainly shine during the battle. Its bulk is, again, absolutely amazing, it's got great dual STABs, incredible Attack and a good way to boost that in Dragon Dance. Not to mention, not a lot of people are really prepared for it, which is probably one of its biggest advantages.

I have no opinion on where it goes, but I thought I'd make a couple points.

 

[Albacore]

Mega Gallade is not easier to check than Mega Medicham. Maybe for teams that happen to have an Unaware/TWave Clefable or Phys Def Altaria (and from experience, offensive variants are far more common), but for any other team, Gallade is far trickier to deal with simply because of its speed. Not being outsped by Keldeo is a huge deal as are the following : not being outsped by Landorus, being able to hit Slowbro and Celebi without dedicating 2 of your moveslots, not being walled by Mew or Cresselia, having the ability to win ties with with Gengar and Metagross, beating Latis 1v1, I could go on. There are just so many situations where Gallade has an edge over Medicham. Yes, Medicham's immediate power is nice, but in practice, there aren't that many situations where it's worth more than SD, Knock Off and partially existent bulk. Gallade is already plenty powerful on its own, personally I've rarely been in a situation where I wished it hit harder, especially compared to how many times outspeeding Keldeo has been crucial. I can't comfortably see it in the B ranks, unless you really need the dual prio and don't mind being outsped by a large portion of the metagame I wouldn't really use it.

My big problem with Manaphy moving to A+ is that it's honestly pretty matchup based. It's very threatening to balance and stall teams, has a tricky time doing much vs offense and is often reduced to switching in on a thing, clicking Scald and hoping it burns, not being able to do that more than once or twice against offensively-paced teams. The popularity of Gothitelle on Stall doesn't do it any favours either.

Mew on the other hand I agree with moving to A- because it's just as much of a pain to teams that don't carry Sableye (who is way less popular than it was early ORAS), is one of the best checks to Metagross and Lopunny, has a huge amount of options like Ice Beam and EQ and Dazzling Gleam and Nastypass and Heal Bell and Defog etc etc. A few things are annoying for it like the Zards and Talon but those are pretty easy to pressure with SR support.

Sceptile is fine in B, although it isn't as good as any of the faster megas due to its lack of coverage, the way it effortlessly fits on FWG and SFD cores makes it a pretty appealing Pokemon to build around. If you only look at it offensively I can see why it would look inferior to other megas, but it has nice resists to Water, Ground, and Electric which gives it some defensive presence, which is a very important thing for offense to have atm.

Reflect Type MLatias is just ridiculous and walls everything. It's one of the most consistent defoggers not so much in terms of how many rock setter it beats but how long it's able to stay alive and keep defogging. Also it's one of the only hard counters to Landorus and isn't even stopped by Pursuit (though it is hampered by it somewhat). It's a fantastic asset to stall and balance. Very solid Pokemon which deserves A- imo.


Been thinking about this for a while, but I'd like to nominate Landorus-T to drop to A. This is probably a controversial nom, but in this metagame I really don't see Landorus-T as being on the same level as, well, any A+ rank really. It seems a lot more on par with Garchomp and Hippowdon to me.

I think it's safe to say that the Scarf set has completely fallen from its grace. It is just very easy to both wear down and take advantage of, with stuff like HP Ice Landorus and YZard being more and more common and making the act of clicking EQ a death sentence (which Lando-T often has to do if it doesn't want the rest of its team getting whittled down to death), people know exactly how to play against Scarf Landorus-T by now. It's hard pressed to do much against most bulky teams which are easily able to outlast it by continuously sending in stuff like Gliscor, Hippowdon, RH Chomp, Ferrothorn to take its hits. And honestly, it doesn't really beat that many common sweepers. Bisharp beats it, Talon beats it, XZard runs Jolly nowadays for it, Altaria is bulky enough to handle it, Volcarona beats it, BD Azumarill beats it, Bulky SD MZor beats it, RP Landorus really beats it. I guess it does handle Agiiligross, Sand Rush Excadrill and MGyara, but Exca often runs a Baloon so it needs Superpower to handle it, and it also needs Superpower for Gyara, and for it to have MEvoed previously.

Then there's the physically defensive set which, while quite a decent rock setter and pivot, suffers a ton of competition from Hippowdon who has recovery and walls way more stuff, Garchomp which forces everything to die as it hits it, and even Gliscor who is extremely hard to wear down and performs way better against bulkier teams. And yes, U-Turn is nice, but a lot of teams need to cover as many threats as they possibly can and can't afford utility over switching into things, and Landorus-T being a bulky ground type that loses to Bisharp is kind of a dealbreaker when that thing is such a huge threat to balanced teams otherwise. Overral, I don't think Landorus-T is a good a defensive Pokemon as the other bulky grounds in A rank.

And then we come to the boosting sets (Dual Dance particularly), and since I don't actually have any experience with these sets so I can't really speak for their effectiveness. In theory, they actually look pretty damn good, RP is quite threatening for Offense to handle while SD gives it some wallbreaking prowess, baiting in Ferrothorn, Garchomp, non-Unaware Clefable, Stone Edge Hippowdon, Venusaur and even Sableye if running Earth Plate. I'd really like some feedback on this : are Landorus-T's boosting sets good enough to still make it worthy of A+ rank? Because to me, its 2 other sets aren't enough to justify its current rank.

 

[AM]

As far as Manaphy going to A+ goes for those opposed to it you really need to establish the balance it has in match-up in comparison to offense and more slower builds like bulky offense and balance. What I mean is show how detrimental its matchup against offense is to the point it's hard to justify A+. Right now you're talking about something that makes a defensive game almost a complete liability based on a bunch of what ifs in terms of coverage moves. All these slower builds of balance, which that and bulky offense is seen as the most consistent and popular styles you'll see now a days, is not gonna be as huge a burden when it falls under a speed tier to threaten a lot of these cores along with whatever coverage move the team necessitates plus a utility move that just bumps your special attack to absurd levels. Let's be honest here I need more than just "offense handles it". That doesn't exactly tell me anything we already know and it doesn't even get into specifics in how offense handles it with the cores and trends that are taking place.

Uh Lando-T is indeed a controversial case and more than likely will not be on what's being moved up, down, or stays in the coming update for the fact that the update is already pretty big as is. It can be more geared next update when that happens.

 

[Puralux]

----> D
Kyurem has a small niche, the sub roost set which leads him to be antimeta or ideal for counterteamming stall and semistall teams. His main niche is pressure, who can help to win ppstalling in a lot of situations such as against stall, or sometimes against 8 pp moves such as stone edge or gyro ball while under sub. It uses substitute on setup fodders like rotom-w to spam safely his strong STAB, ice beam, with also a moderate chance of being frozen by that move if spammed repeatedly. I think that's all in a nutshell, to justify his niche, but i might add more if find something else.

Here's the import for that set just in case you are interested:

Hide

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 52 HP / 216 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Roost

 

[x MAD AXES x]

Honestly I don't see that as a big enough niche to put kyurem in D, his alternate does everything he does better (except the 10 less base stats in special attack), pp stalling isn't something he can do even with pressure and roost because of his bad typing and average bulk, which again black has better defence stats plus terravolt means rotom-w, which you used to justify kyurems D rank, ignores levitate.

Plus once again KyuB is better vs stall with the ability to go mixed.

I feel Kyurem should stay unranked

 

[Kurona]

I have to agree with the above statement, and no matter how compelling an argument you make, I think I speak for a lot of people in addition to myself when I say it's getting kind of annoying to see 'mon after 'mon nominated for a spot on the rankings with no actual realistic demonstration of it's role on a team or replays.

 

[Croven]

I have to agree with the above statement, and no matter how compelling an argument you make, I think I speak for a lot of people in addition to myself when I say it's getting kind of annoying to see 'mon after 'mon nominated for a spot on the rankings with no actual realistic demonstration of it's role on a team or replays.

I haven't personally used Kyurem on a team before, so I can't actually give a valuable opinion on how viable it is, but if you want replays, ben gay used it before in SPL to success: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-43548

 

[soulgazer]

croven kinda ninja'd me lol

pp stalling isn't something he can do even with pressure and roost because of his bad typing and average bulk, which again black has better defence stats plus terravolt means rotom-w, which you used to justify kyurems D rank, ignores levitate.

Sure Kyurem doesn't have the best defensive typing in the world, but it does have good enough bulk to do its job. TBH I think having STAB Ice Beam is actually quite good for it so I guess there's a pros for its typing. Also SubRoost Kyurem (which I am pretty sure is the only set that should be used if you want to use Kyurem) beats Rotom-W 1 on 1 even without Teravolt since Rotom-W simply can't break Kyurem's Substitute and it will just get worn down by multiple Ice Beams and Stealth Rock. Heck Rotom-W IS setup fodder.

edit: let me add that Pressure + SubRoost lets Kyurem stall out Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball PP among other things oo

I have to agree with the above statement, and no matter how compelling an argument you make, I think I speak for a lot of people in addition to myself when I say it's getting kind of annoying to see 'mon after 'mon nominated for a spot on the rankings with no actual realistic demonstration of it's role on a team or replays.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-43548 Kyurem was used to good success in a SPL semi final game, and from the other replays of ben gay (sry if you don't like getting tagged 9.9) it looks like he has been using it a lot so maybe he will like to say his opinion on Kyurem's ranking :O

 

[astroboy]

And then we come to the boosting sets (Dual Dance particularly), and since I don't actually have any experience with these sets so I can't really speak for their effectiveness. In theory, they actually look pretty damn good, RP is quite threatening for Offense to handle while SD gives it some wallbreaking prowess, baiting in Ferrothorn, Garchomp, non-Unaware Clefable, Stone Edge Hippowdon, Venusaur and even Sableye if running Earth Plate. I'd really like some feedback on this : are Landorus-T's boosting sets good enough to still make it worthy of A+ rank? Because to me, its 2 other sets aren't enough to justify its current rank.

i've been using double-dance landorus-t a decent amount in the post-suspect meta so i think i can speak a decent amount on it, and it's generally just...underwhelming. you REALLY miss being able to pivot, as without u-turn lando-t loses its amazing ability to pivot and makes things a lot more prediction-based for it. it needs more team support to beat things it could normally u-turn out of like skarmory, rotom-w, celebi, or gliscor. it finds a hard time setting up because of the aforementioned mons being incredibly common. the sub/sd set also has problems against offense but it's pretty decent against defenssive teams. idk if i'm explaining this well enough but i don't think it's enough to keep lando in a+

----> D
Kyurem has a small niche, the sub roost set which leads him to be antimeta or ideal for counterteamming stall and semistall teams. His main niche is pressure, who can help to win ppstalling in a lot of situations such as against stall, or sometimes against 8 pp moves such as stone edge or gyro ball while under sub. It uses substitute on setup fodders like rotom-w to spam safely his strong STAB, ice beam, with also a moderate chance of being frozen by that move if spammed repeatedly. I think that's all in a nutshell, to justify his niche, but i might add more if find something else.

Here's the import for that set just in case you are interested:

Hide

Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 52 HP / 216 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Roost

base kyurem is totally hopelessly outclassed by kyube lol don't rank it. i get that ben gay swept with it in spl but he also used a pikachu. are we going to rank pikachu.

 

[pika pal]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-43548 Kyurem was used to good success in a SPL semi final game, and from the other replays of ben gay (sry if you don't like getting tagged 9.9) it looks like he has been using it a lot so maybe he will like to say his opinion on Kyurem's ranking :O

I have no reason to doubt ben's skill, though looking at that replay, was there anything that Kyurem managed to PP stall out only thanks to Pressure; something it wouldn't have been able to beat if it had been Kyurem-B running a similar Sub Roost set?

 

[Puralux]

Honestly I don't see that as a big enough niche to put kyurem in D, his alternate does everything he does better (except the 10 less base stats in special attack), pp stalling isn't something he can do even with pressure and roost because of his bad typing and average bulk, which again black has better defence stats plus terravolt means rotom-w, which you used to justify kyurems D rank, ignores levitate.

Plus once again KyuB is better vs stall with the ability to go mixed.

I feel Kyurem should stay unranked

Kyurem-B has only 10 bp of difference in defenses, and only for PhyDef, and it doesn't change the things so much, while normal kyurem can do heavier damage without using life orb. We don't care if Kyu-b has teravolt, because normal kyurem can simply sub, while rotom-w can't break the sub at the first time (i think), it gets the same scenario, Rotom-w dead (or eventually, forceswitch) Lol, it's almost obvious that normal Kyurem might be outclassed, even if the role it does it's different from kyurem-b's, but with that statement then all other D ranked mons would be unranked, since they are all outclassed (or almost), and this means that you don't know what D rank means:

Hide

D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the OU metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.

normal kyurem has a lot of flaws, but it does have a justification to be used in OU sometimes, even if rarely, in my opinion.

 

[firehusky]

base kyurem is totally hopelessly outclassed by kyube lol don't rank it. i get that ben gay swept with it in spl but he also used a pikachu. are we going to rank pikachu.

Kyurem-B shouldn't be compared to Kyurem. They do different things. Kyurem-B is more of a wallbreaker and attacker, while Kyurem is more defensive. In terms of power and wallbreaking, kyurem-b outclasses a bunch of pokemon. Kyurem actually has solid bulk, and even though it's defensive typing isn't great, it still leaves it with solid resistances to water-, grass-, and electric-type attacks. Having decent offensive stats is also pretty nice, as it means that Kyurem isn't super passive, and can actually be a defensive Pokemon that can fight back. Kyurem is imo a better subrooster than Kyurem-B. Using Kyurem-B to wall stuff doesn't make that much sense because then you won't be taking advantage of it's high offensive stats. Pressure combined with roost, substitute, kyurem's above average bulk, and decent set of resistances actually allows it to beat many pokemon. Pokemon that you would expect to wall it / beat it such as ferrothorn and rotom-w are actually completely walled by it, and can easily be pp stalled or just slowly worn down. 130 base special attack is actually really impressive, and it can also run other moves such as earth power to get past steel types such as heatran, or toxic to wear down pokemon faster.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

croven kinda ninja'd me lol



Sure Kyurem doesn't have the best defensive typing in the world, but it does have good enough bulk to do its job. TBH I think having STAB Ice Beam is actually quite good for it so I guess there's a pros for its typing. Also SubRoost Kyurem (which I am pretty sure is the only set that should be used if you want to use Kyurem) beats Rotom-W 1 on 1 even without Teravolt since Rotom-W simply can't break Kyurem's Substitute and it will just get worn down by multiple Ice Beams and Stealth Rock. Heck Rotom-W IS setup fodder.

edit: let me add that Pressure + SubRoost lets Kyurem stall out Ferrothorn's Gyro Ball PP among other things oo



http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-43548 Kyurem was used to good success in a SPL semi final game, and from the other replays of ben gay (sry if you don't like getting tagged 9.9) it looks like he has been using it a lot so maybe he will like to say his opinion on Kyurem's ranking :O

If you want to post a replay of a good usage of Kyurem, please post one that isn't against an opposing team where four out of six Pokemon were weak against its best STAB attack. Sure, the other two resisted it, but Earth Power easily took care of them cause they weren't fast enough to hit Kyurem first. That is terrible team design. I mean, I get concerned when I have three Pokemon on the same team that share a weakness. I'm sorry, but when your Pokemon has two attacking moves, one of which the opponent has four Pokemon weak to, and the other which the opponent has the other two weak to, even a Pokemon with worse stats than Kyurem could probably have easily won in that situation. Sorry, but that is just a terrible replay that does nothing to prove your case.

 

[Kurona]

Kyurem-B shouldn't be compared to Kyurem. They do different things. Kyurem-B is more of a wallbreaker and attacker, while Kyurem is more defensive. In terms of power and wallbreaking, kyurem-b outclasses a bunch of pokemon. Kyurem actually has solid bulk, and even though it's defensive typing isn't great, it still leaves it with solid resistances to water-, grass-, and electric-type attacks. Having decent offensive stats is also pretty nice, as it means that Kyurem isn't super passive, and can actually be a defensive Pokemon that can fight back. Kyurem is imo a better subrooster than Kyurem-B. Using Kyurem-B to wall stuff doesn't make that much sense because then you won't be taking advantage of it's high offensive stats. Pressure combined with roost, substitute, kyurem's above average bulk, and decent set of resistances actually allows it to beat many pokemon. Pokemon that you would expect to wall it / beat it such as ferrothorn and rotom-w are actually completely walled by it, and can easily be pp stalled or just slowly worn down. 130 base special attack is actually really impressive, and it can also run other moves such as earth power to get past steel types such as heatran, or toxic to wear down pokemon faster.

The comparison takes place because Kyurem and Kyurem-B have the exact same typing and Kyurem-B has the same defensive stats aside from Defence which is actually slightly higher. The point here being that if you're using Kyurem has a subrooster, you're basically using Kyurem-B as a subrooster but with significantly less physical prowess.
I'm not saying I agree with it due to Kyurem having Pressure - even then that seems a low point to me tho - but I just had to clear things up.

 

[bb skarm]

kyurem is good in D. i watched the SPL game between ben gay and theender live and Kyurem and it was actually a very good display of how effective it is in battle. its good natural damage allows it to put pressure (no pun intended) on the opposing team behind a substitute, and it PP stalls very well due to its good bulk and many sub oppurtunities. it's an easy way to essentially negate stall mons and utility mons and guarantee a sub, and then proceed to deal out damage as well.

as for the argument, "just because it won one spl battle doesnt mean shit", let it be known that I've used kyurem on the higher ends of the ladder, and it sets up sub easily enough on so many mons, including AV Raikou, Ferrothorn, rotom-w, gliscor, heatran, thundurus, slowbro, and celebi, and it has ultimately won me games due to how it can just stall out a mon and end up with a sub, thus not only guaranteeing solid damage on an opponent but also negating for the most part one of a Pokemon's way of dealing damage. it's also fucking hard to wear down apart from hazards due to the fact that it will always prioritize being behind a sub and can safely roost.

don't knock kyurem if you havent used it

 

[firehusky]

Uh I just said this but if you're using Kyurem-B to subroost, then you aren't taking advantage of your offensive stats, as you can only run two attacking moves. Using Kyurem as a subrooster has its benefits. Pressure enables it to stall out low PP moves such as stone edge, close combat, and gyro ball, while also having higher special attack so it can hit back harder with ice beam on the special side. I'd say that pressure and a higher special attack stat than kyu-b are good enough niches for it to be ranked. I'm not talking about the B ranks, this is D rank we're talking about. It's niche is pretty small, but I think it warrants D rank.
The point I'm trying to make is that kyurem-B almost never runs substitute and roost on the same set, as it should be attacking and wallbreaking, so comparing them as subroosters doesn't make that much sense. Pressure allows Kyurem to beat many pokemon such as ferrothorn that rely on one attacking move to hit it super effectively.

 

[leremyju]

I have no reason to doubt ben's skill, though looking at that replay, was there anything that Kyurem managed to PP stall out only thanks to Pressure; something it wouldn't have been able to beat if it had been Kyurem-B running a similar Sub Roost set?

The choiced Klefki has like 2 more play roughs left.

 

[Enki]

If you use Kyurem-black as a substitute+roost user you give up 10 Special Attack, and the ability to PP Stall Gyro Ball Ferrothorn (and still set up another substitute, blocking leech seed), the trade is being able to attack Rotom-wash with Earth Power (which still loses anyways) and I guess a surprise effect, though when someone sees Leftovers they will instantly assume that Kyurem-black is a substitute variant, so Kyub does not outclass Kyurem as a ppstaller/subroost user.
Also, with more hp (for example 248) evs Kyurem-n gets to beat non-cm clefable by pp stalling moonblast, something that Kyurem-black cannot do.

 

[Obliviate]

Huh. I've read it a few times now but let me clarify that Kyurem actually is bulkier than Kyurem-B. o_o
Kyurem-B always runs a mild nature because it's mixed offensive. Dropping Def is also usually better than dropping SDef as that lets you check mons like Manaphy, Mega-Manectric and Raikou easier. Kyurem on the other hand doesn't need a mild nature because it's specially offensive. So actually Kyurem's bulk is 4 points better than Kyurem-B's lol.

 

[jzplr]

So going to make a nomination:
Mega Sceptile to B-

Ok I'll admit that with its great speed tier and Lightningrod, Mega Sceptile can put in a lot of work against HO. However, it is extremely weak to priority users such as Talonflame and Weavile, and Weavile(and Mamoswine I guess) have gotten a lot better in this meta recently. Also it is not like it can come in for free vs Mega Mane or Thundurus, as it fears HP Ice. The real reason I think Mega Sceptile should drop is how vulnerable it is to Mega Altaria, a top threat in the OU metagame right now. It literally can't do anything to Altaria. Also Mega Metagross staying OU contributed to the rise of Mega Scizor, which also walls Mega Sceptile not carrying HP Fire, and even then, it can do heavy damage with Bullet Punch. Finally, AV Tornadus-T has became much more common, and it can safely switch into all of Sceptile's moves, same with Celebi. The lack of a strong Dragon type STAB really hurts it in this regard. While Leaf Storm is strong, it is a gaping hole for a setup sweeper like RP Lando-I to set up on, meaning against HO which stacks many sweepers, Mega Sceptile still has to play carefully as it will be deadweight for preventing mons faster than it from sweeping. If you want an anti HO mega, Mega Alakazam is a great choice over Mega Sceptile, with the better speed tier after going mega and the advantages of trace for utility vs random stuff like rain. While Mega Alakazam does not have a TWave immunity, it fares better vs bulkier builds than Mega Sceptile, and it also has better coverage in general. Mega Sceptile isn't really that good anymore as the meta isn't too kind to it, but it still holds a decent niche so should not be moved down to the C ranks.

Imo, Scepty is fine. Nearly all its problems can be overcome by Substitute, including its priority weakness. And of course it's gonna get walled by things, it's an attacker. Everything else I would say's already been said by Celticpride.

 

[Kurona]

Huh. I've read it a few times now but let me clarify that Kyurem actually is bulkier than Kyurem-B. o_o
Kyurem-B always runs a mild nature because it's mixed offensive. Dropping Def is also usually better than dropping SDef as that lets you check mons like Manaphy, Mega-Manectric and Raikou easier. Kyurem on the other hand doesn't need a mild nature because it's specially offensive. So actually Kyurem's bulk is 4 points better than Kyurem-B's lol.

Um.
I mean. If you're going to say that using more defensive natures and EV spreads make things more defensive, then... yeah?

 

[craing ;_;]

i try not to post here if need be but i am always astounded by how everyone can go off on such absurd tangents such as this. just to let people know, the ranking team will be reworking D rank soon enough to include mons that might have potential in the tier, but are neglected because it not being up to par with D itself. this reworking will most likely include the implementation of D+ and D- to accommodate these niche mons, as they are a good indicator that the tier is still yet to be fully explored. feel free to nominate mons that you feel would fit this criteria, but don't be too extreme in how you sell it(im talking to you pachirisu). as long as you provide reasonable explanation and a good replay or two showcasing it, then the ranking team will more likely consider it. now that that's been settled, since people already talked about kyurem and what it can and can't do, i'll just provide a few more replays to go off of than the really 1 sided match i had against ender.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-39963 -tspikes support makes kyurem's job much easier
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-40496 -had no good answer to it, mew can't beat kyurem bcs even if it had psychic to break its sub, i can stall it out of psychics

regular kyurem really doesn't operate that differently than kyu-b since they are both quite threatening to balanced and in no way would i consider it an 'inferior' alternative to it since they should be played a bit differently. that's my two cents on it, take it how you will pce. :p

 

[firehusky]

Nominating Skarmory for A-

B+ ---> A-

I think Skarmory is deserving of A- thanks to it's Custap lead set. A simple set consisting of Stealth Rock / Brave Bird or Iron Head / Spikes / Taunt goes a long way. It's almost always guaranteed to get up Stealth Rock thanks to Sturdy, and most of the time it can get up a layer or two of Spikes, thanks to Custap berry. Taunt allows it to shut down Pokemon such as Ferrothorn that try to stack hazards beside it. Brave Bird is also nice, as it allows Skarmory to kill itself, stopping Defog and Rapid Spin, while also gaining momentum, allowing a sweeper to come in for free. Custap Skarm is almost a necessity on HO teams. It's one of the premier hazard stackers, almost always being able to get up SR and 1 layer of Spikes, and can oftentimes prevent other, slower, hazard stackers from doing the same.

Defensive sets are also decent, being able to check many physical attackers such as Mega Metagross, Jolly Mega Lopunny, and Mega Pinsir. It has a stellar Steel / Flying defensive typing, leaving it with only 2 weaknesses to Fire and Electric. It also can offer defog support, and has reliable recovery in roost.

Thanks to Custap berry, Skarmory is now a great hazard stacker and suicide lead for HO teams, being able to almost always get up SR and 1 layer of spikes, while still being a top notch hazard remover and physical wall, capable of countering many physical attackers such as mega metagross, mega lopunny, and mega pinsir.