Agreed. Most of what I'm saying here has already been said about Volcoronea. It Can not sweep with Azumarril and/or talonflame still on the feild, two extremely common pokemon. Furthermore, unless it's running... HP rock? Sp. Def Talonflame can come in and set up all over it or threaten it with brave bird. Also, against many stall teams it runs the risk of being whirlwinded in on rocks. It's revenged by scarfers Keldeo and Terrakion (not that much of a threat atm, but still there) other than adding a bit more on to the conversation, I don't really have much more to say. Volcorona should stay in A-.
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Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100
- Thread starter trc
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I agree.It is great with quiver dance but that wont do it good because its weaknesses are mostly physical.Rock slide destroys it,Bbird destroys it,a waterfall from a good water physical pokemon is dangerous and threatening againts it.It cannot reliably switch into anything except to a grass type,but grass type isnt common in OU and BL,i only think that the grass types are a Breloom ,Venusaur,Celebi,Ferrothorn and a Serperiorand its technician set can carry rock tomb to get rid of volcarona switchins.Conkeldurr does massive damage to a volcarona with knock off aswell knocking off its item.Stealth rock damage does do it in especially if being the last pokemon weakened to the point of 50% health,and that isnt uncommon.
Mega Alakazam To A.
I Agree.This thing is a monster.With base 175 Spa,nothin to laugh at,and base 150 speed,IT IS A MONSTER.Yeah i had to capitalize every single letter(please no hate),uninvested it outspeeds pixie legends,with investments and speed boosting natures.It outspeeds garchomp no scarf speed invesments speed boosting nature.It outspeeds most of the OU mons without any invesments and it outspeeds any non legendary pokemon in the game including every mega pokemon in the game making it outsped by Deoxys speed and Ninjask,which it can take out pretty easily.In the Pokemon Universe its the third fastest pokemon in the game,2nd you might say because ninjask and Deoxys speed speed tie with each other.Its diverse moveset becomes a threat to alot of pokemon having shadow ball,psychic and focus blast catch off guard Alakazams 2/3 weaknesses the other being bug.It can run hidden power fire for the steel types aswell.
Mega Alakazam To A.
I Agree.This thing is a monster.With base 175 Spa,nothin to laugh at,and base 150 speed,IT IS A MONSTER.Yeah i had to capitalize every single letter(please no hate),uninvested it outspeeds pixie legends,with investments and speed boosting natures.It outspeeds garchomp no scarf speed invesments speed boosting nature.It outspeeds most of the OU mons without any invesments and it outspeeds any non legendary pokemon in the game including every mega pokemon in the game making it outsped by Deoxys speed and Ninjask,which it can take out pretty easily.In the Pokemon Universe its the third fastest pokemon in the game,2nd you might say because ninjask and Deoxys speed speed tie with each other.Its diverse moveset becomes a threat to alot of pokemon having shadow ball,psychic and focus blast catch off guard Alakazams 2/3 weaknesses the other being bug.It can run hidden power fire for the steel types aswell.
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OK. I'm not sure why my posts were deleted. I built an effective team where Cinccino played a strong role in the team's strategy to win. Yes, it's gimmicky, but it works. I cannot say I've seen the same for Pokemon like: Rotom-H, Ludicolo, Doublade, Zygarde, or Noivern.
How can you say it's more of a joke than nominating Pachirisu? One that, to my knowledge, did not get its user's posts removed.
How can you say it's more of a joke than nominating Pachirisu? One that, to my knowledge, did not get its user's posts removed.
Your posts were deleted because cinccino is nigh on unviable in OU and it's barely viable in RU. Also those pokemon have uses such as rotom-h has some good advantages over wash(heatom resists boltbeam and fairy) and stab overheat. Doublade counters mega heracross which pretty much solos stall,while Noivern has access to focus miss and coverage vs steels,and Zygarde has coil and more bulk then garchomp.
Doublade is a shit mon that saps up your momentum and even has a hard time damaging common switch ins like Landorus-T, Gliscor, Ferrothorn etc. It's only used in a desperate attempt to handle mons that cannot be repeatedly switched into under traditional means. And the only move it has to heal itself is Rest. It does not deserve to be ranked.
Rotom-Heat is poor excuse of a mon to handle bolt beam coverage. It doesn't block the bolt beam user's ability to Volt Switch on you and gives them a huge advantage if they are to keep Stealth Rock up, unlike Hippowdon. It needs a specially defensive set (max) to even switch in on Charizard Y. If it runs Volt Switch then you put yourself at risk of being set up on by Talonflame and not even being able to handle Charizard Y because you're giving it a turn to use Roost. It cannot reliably switch into Pinsir either if you are to use a SpD set, which is a niche that's a major boon to some Electric types. If you are to run Choice Scarf then you put yourself at a bigger risk of getting a counter switched into you and forcing you to lose precious momentum. It does not help that Ground types are extremely common in the metagame: mons like Garchomp, Hippowdon, and Gliscor. And in most matches, Rotom-H will be a liability with little to truly offer a competitive team.
To compare Noivern to the Lati twins, you lose bulk if you are to use Noivern over them, while giving yourself a Stealth Rock weakness, and less utility, because you can no longer use Defog for the ability to hit Tyranitar with a shaky 70% accuracy attack and the use of a different secondary stab, one that's done significantly better by Tornadus-Therian. Noivern is less of a threat to teams than Lati@s, because it's just that much weaker and is a worse Keldeo check because it gets OHKOed by Icy Wind.
Zygarde trades Garchomp's speed, power, and ability for 2 movesets that aren't done well. The Coil set doesn't really manage much against most slower builds because of (Unaware) Clefable, Skarmory, Slowbro, and perhaps other things too. And versus faster paced teams it either gets hit too hard by their first switch in or is put into a position where it has to be sacrificed after only KOing one mon. If that. The Dragon Dance set is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you are forced to use your Dragon coverage in a match, you're screwed. They will send in their Steel or Fairy type and proceed to kill or cripple you. This is very easily accomplished by Celebi, Rotom-W, Lati, whatever -> Clefable, Mega Diancie, etc.
I've used all these mons extensively. They are true gimmicks in that they will almost never be function better than their more viable counterparts. In both Zyarde's and Doublade's cases, where their niches can't be replicated by other viable mons .. well it's not a niche worth having if it isn't effective in the first place.
And this isn't even all the mons that aren't worth using. If you want to keep gimmicks off the list, then I suggest getting rid of the ones already on it and posting a response detailing why something shouldn't be used instead outright ignoring it.
Rotom-Heat is poor excuse of a mon to handle bolt beam coverage. It doesn't block the bolt beam user's ability to Volt Switch on you and gives them a huge advantage if they are to keep Stealth Rock up, unlike Hippowdon. It needs a specially defensive set (max) to even switch in on Charizard Y. If it runs Volt Switch then you put yourself at risk of being set up on by Talonflame and not even being able to handle Charizard Y because you're giving it a turn to use Roost. It cannot reliably switch into Pinsir either if you are to use a SpD set, which is a niche that's a major boon to some Electric types. If you are to run Choice Scarf then you put yourself at a bigger risk of getting a counter switched into you and forcing you to lose precious momentum. It does not help that Ground types are extremely common in the metagame: mons like Garchomp, Hippowdon, and Gliscor. And in most matches, Rotom-H will be a liability with little to truly offer a competitive team.
To compare Noivern to the Lati twins, you lose bulk if you are to use Noivern over them, while giving yourself a Stealth Rock weakness, and less utility, because you can no longer use Defog for the ability to hit Tyranitar with a shaky 70% accuracy attack and the use of a different secondary stab, one that's done significantly better by Tornadus-Therian. Noivern is less of a threat to teams than Lati@s, because it's just that much weaker and is a worse Keldeo check because it gets OHKOed by Icy Wind.
Zygarde trades Garchomp's speed, power, and ability for 2 movesets that aren't done well. The Coil set doesn't really manage much against most slower builds because of (Unaware) Clefable, Skarmory, Slowbro, and perhaps other things too. And versus faster paced teams it either gets hit too hard by their first switch in or is put into a position where it has to be sacrificed after only KOing one mon. If that. The Dragon Dance set is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you are forced to use your Dragon coverage in a match, you're screwed. They will send in their Steel or Fairy type and proceed to kill or cripple you. This is very easily accomplished by Celebi, Rotom-W, Lati, whatever -> Clefable, Mega Diancie, etc.
I've used all these mons extensively. They are true gimmicks in that they will almost never be function better than their more viable counterparts. In both Zyarde's and Doublade's cases, where their niches can't be replicated by other viable mons .. well it's not a niche worth having if it isn't effective in the first place.
And this isn't even all the mons that aren't worth using. If you want to keep gimmicks off the list, then I suggest getting rid of the ones already on it and posting a response detailing why something shouldn't be used instead outright ignoring it.
I'm backing up Starmie for A+:
Starmie is an incredibly versatile and effective pokemon in the ORAS OU metagame.
It has a niche speed tier, which allows it to outspeed latios, latias, gengar and many megas.
It is a reliable keldeo check (top5 pokemon in the tier for sure) and Mega Metagross, offering huge support for bulky teams that relies on Stealth Rock being out of the field (Charizard Y and Volcarona ones, for example).
Offensive sets, although far from being a Greninja, have Anaytic, making it hard for many pokemon to switch into it safely.
It is also an excelent lure to pokemons like Ferrothorn (with Hidden Power Fire)!
Natural Cure turns it into a good status absorber, making it a good Rapid Spinner and better than Excadrill in many situations.
Starmie is an incredibly versatile and effective pokemon in the ORAS OU metagame.
It has a niche speed tier, which allows it to outspeed latios, latias, gengar and many megas.
It is a reliable keldeo check (top5 pokemon in the tier for sure) and Mega Metagross, offering huge support for bulky teams that relies on Stealth Rock being out of the field (Charizard Y and Volcarona ones, for example).
Offensive sets, although far from being a Greninja, have Anaytic, making it hard for many pokemon to switch into it safely.
It is also an excelent lure to pokemons like Ferrothorn (with Hidden Power Fire)!
Natural Cure turns it into a good status absorber, making it a good Rapid Spinner and better than Excadrill in many situations.
Some thoughts about the next slate:
to B
Agree, I believe that selling it as a water type Heatran is an huge overstatement, Empoleon has lower stats, does not get Earth Power and Taunt, and cannot hope to have Heatran's versatility as a threat, still Empo remains a powerful fairy check, it is also one of the few stealth rocks user who does not mind Offensive Starmie's coverage, as people prefer Psyshock over Thunderbolt on offensive sets due to stuff like Calm Mind Keldeo, and while defog+sr is (imho) retarded, Empoleon is both a solid sr setter and defog user, boasting a resistance to rocks and immunity to toxic spikes, Scald is also obviously better than Lava as main stab who hopes to burn stuff
to A-
Also agree, while nerfed from BW due to Defog Skarmory is the most reliable suicide lead at the moment who can set up both Stealth Rocks and a layer of Spikes, quite important for hyper offensive teams, it is also, without a doubt one of the best pick for defensive teams, balanced teams are also discovering the wonders of the special defensive set, some Skarmory also run Iron Head so that they can cover mega Diancie, one of the two main magic bouncer atm, the fact that it can be customized for all kind of teams, unique type, solid recovery, access to both Stealth Rocks, Spikes, WW/ or even taunt so that he does not become set up fodder are enough to grant him a place to A-
to B-
neutral, leaning towards agree, while Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade are in a way, comparable, mega medicham rewards immediate play, and does not requires to set up in order to dish out powerful attacks, it also gets Fake Out, and Baton Pass in order to screw mega Sableye, two moves that mega Gallade does not get, and now, with Mega Sableye falling usage-wise, I could see it rising to B+
to A+
Disagree, while Starmie is one of the best hazard remover I don't think it is at level of other stuff like Latios, just like Latios it has troubles against Scarf Tyranitar, a common pick on balanced teams working around hazards, and obviously it does not get Latios' coverage or destructive power, I just can't see Starmie A+ and Latias A
to B-
Agree, mostly for the Choice Band set, thing is a powerful wallbreaker with very few switch ins opportunities, rock/dragon as a type isn't that bad, just like 82/119/59 bulk, while yes the special defense is quite low, hp and defense aren't bad for a wallbreaker.
to C+
Neutral, not tested enough, it surely does not have the same advantages back in BW, though I have also seen life orb variants acting as an okay sweeper with a gold speed tier.
to B+
Agree, tbh, I consider Reuniclus and Hydreigon two hidden treasures from BW, forgotten, but in no way useless, yes, fairy types, competing with Landorus-Incarnate as a wallbreaker and the speed tier rise surely do not help Hydreigon but Hydreigon also gained something, Dark Pulse hitting for neutral damage steel types is by no means something small, it can easily pull off mixed sets thanks to 105 base attack it can easily use stuff like Superpower and U-turn to have more chances against defensive teams/scarf tyra from balanced teams, while seriously, what exactly can come in against Hydreigon's atacks on balanced teams? it is even worst than Kyurem-Black, since Hydre gets other cool stuff like Dark Pulse for hitting Jirachi and Fire Blast for (Mega) Scizor and Ferrothorn, the only real safe switch in are fairy types, which I suppose it's good considering how stuff like Mega Metagross have excellent sinergy with it.
to A
Disagree, maybe I'm one of the minority but I believe Volcarona shouldn't even be A- rank but B+, A is just too much, it has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks, is one dimensional on the contrary of Talonflame, has a fourth move syndrome with Hidden Power, with ground being the most used, leaving Volcarona fucked against dragons and Charizard, has trouble against common priority such as Aqua jet cb Azumarill, or Talonflame's Brave Bird due to the 85/65 bulk, which is not boosted by Quiver Dance, sadly, it also pretty much requires to be timid with a good deal of speed, so that Scarf Lando does not kill it, as such giving up on power and/or bulk.
to A
Neutral, probably leaning towards disagree, while I used Mega Alakazam on a good deal of battles, and its ability to cause switch and outspeed majority of the metagame while also trolling it with Trace, I always hated Focus Blast's reliance, and Psyshock/Psychic being a difficult stab to spam, you also get a mega evolution which is ironically trashed by Knock Off having a weakness and very low bulk, while all mega evolutions on A, A+ and S Rank are bulky(excluding Mega Gardevoir, which has though a much better type, and also being one of the best Wallbreakers in the game at the moment) and also much more easy to fit on teams archetype, mega 'zam requires a good deal of support, especially volturn support, so that it can easily come in, so I'm not exactly sure if it is on the same level of other A threats, especially mega, since they let you use the slot.
edit: missclicked, lmao, I meant mega medicham to B-
to B
Agree, I believe that selling it as a water type Heatran is an huge overstatement, Empoleon has lower stats, does not get Earth Power and Taunt, and cannot hope to have Heatran's versatility as a threat, still Empo remains a powerful fairy check, it is also one of the few stealth rocks user who does not mind Offensive Starmie's coverage, as people prefer Psyshock over Thunderbolt on offensive sets due to stuff like Calm Mind Keldeo, and while defog+sr is (imho) retarded, Empoleon is both a solid sr setter and defog user, boasting a resistance to rocks and immunity to toxic spikes, Scald is also obviously better than Lava as main stab who hopes to burn stuff
Also agree, while nerfed from BW due to Defog Skarmory is the most reliable suicide lead at the moment who can set up both Stealth Rocks and a layer of Spikes, quite important for hyper offensive teams, it is also, without a doubt one of the best pick for defensive teams, balanced teams are also discovering the wonders of the special defensive set, some Skarmory also run Iron Head so that they can cover mega Diancie, one of the two main magic bouncer atm, the fact that it can be customized for all kind of teams, unique type, solid recovery, access to both Stealth Rocks, Spikes, WW/ or even taunt so that he does not become set up fodder are enough to grant him a place to A-
neutral, leaning towards agree, while Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade are in a way, comparable, mega medicham rewards immediate play, and does not requires to set up in order to dish out powerful attacks, it also gets Fake Out, and Baton Pass in order to screw mega Sableye, two moves that mega Gallade does not get, and now, with Mega Sableye falling usage-wise, I could see it rising to B+
Disagree, while Starmie is one of the best hazard remover I don't think it is at level of other stuff like Latios, just like Latios it has troubles against Scarf Tyranitar, a common pick on balanced teams working around hazards, and obviously it does not get Latios' coverage or destructive power, I just can't see Starmie A+ and Latias A
Agree, mostly for the Choice Band set, thing is a powerful wallbreaker with very few switch ins opportunities, rock/dragon as a type isn't that bad, just like 82/119/59 bulk, while yes the special defense is quite low, hp and defense aren't bad for a wallbreaker.
Neutral, not tested enough, it surely does not have the same advantages back in BW, though I have also seen life orb variants acting as an okay sweeper with a gold speed tier.
Agree, tbh, I consider Reuniclus and Hydreigon two hidden treasures from BW, forgotten, but in no way useless, yes, fairy types, competing with Landorus-Incarnate as a wallbreaker and the speed tier rise surely do not help Hydreigon but Hydreigon also gained something, Dark Pulse hitting for neutral damage steel types is by no means something small, it can easily pull off mixed sets thanks to 105 base attack it can easily use stuff like Superpower and U-turn to have more chances against defensive teams/scarf tyra from balanced teams, while seriously, what exactly can come in against Hydreigon's atacks on balanced teams? it is even worst than Kyurem-Black, since Hydre gets other cool stuff like Dark Pulse for hitting Jirachi and Fire Blast for (Mega) Scizor and Ferrothorn, the only real safe switch in are fairy types, which I suppose it's good considering how stuff like Mega Metagross have excellent sinergy with it.
Disagree, maybe I'm one of the minority but I believe Volcarona shouldn't even be A- rank but B+, A is just too much, it has a 4x weakness to Stealth Rocks, is one dimensional on the contrary of Talonflame, has a fourth move syndrome with Hidden Power, with ground being the most used, leaving Volcarona fucked against dragons and Charizard, has trouble against common priority such as Aqua jet cb Azumarill, or Talonflame's Brave Bird due to the 85/65 bulk, which is not boosted by Quiver Dance, sadly, it also pretty much requires to be timid with a good deal of speed, so that Scarf Lando does not kill it, as such giving up on power and/or bulk.
Neutral, probably leaning towards disagree, while I used Mega Alakazam on a good deal of battles, and its ability to cause switch and outspeed majority of the metagame while also trolling it with Trace, I always hated Focus Blast's reliance, and Psyshock/Psychic being a difficult stab to spam, you also get a mega evolution which is ironically trashed by Knock Off having a weakness and very low bulk, while all mega evolutions on A, A+ and S Rank are bulky(excluding Mega Gardevoir, which has though a much better type, and also being one of the best Wallbreakers in the game at the moment) and also much more easy to fit on teams archetype, mega 'zam requires a good deal of support, especially volturn support, so that it can easily come in, so I'm not exactly sure if it is on the same level of other A threats, especially mega, since they let you use the slot.
edit: missclicked, lmao, I meant mega medicham to B-
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Thoughts on the current slate:
Empoleon: B- > B - Agree. It's a very good and underated mon, with good bulk and typing, reliable recovery, utility and B- is generally underating it. I personally support a move up, it's a very good defensive defogger.
Skarmory: B+ > A- - Considering I nommed it a while back, I think you know I Agree. the custap lead set is very effective, despite slight 4MSS, and it makes a good wall too. It's just a bit better than the rest of B+ for me.
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B - Disagree. It's a good wallbreaker, but then again there are many other good wallbreakers that don't take a mega slot. It has a hard time V offense unless it's the double priority set, I just think in general C+ is the best rank for it rn, despite it's great power. It doesn't appreciate the speed creep for XY either.
Starmie: A to A+ - Disagree. Both the Reflect Type and Offensive Spinner sets are very good, but IMO people are playing up it's capabilities. Once you know the set, it's not as hard to play around, the offensive set has little bulk and the defensive set is just not as good as people make out. If it had the capability to check, even with less quality, the stuff it checks with each set in one, I would support this, but it can't.
Tyrantrum: C+ to B- - Agree. It's got some good sets and capability as a wallbreaker and a decent setup sweeper, although it struggles with offense I think it's more than good enough to hit the B ranks.
Alakazam: C to C+ - Agree. Alakazam, especially sashed, it a big pain for offensive teams. While it doesn't appreciate a few mons on offense (Bish, MLop, anything scarfed etc), it can come in and out without giving a damn about SR + Spikes due to magic guard, and force a switch or KO something. It's not too hard to play around but is a big pain. It also gives stall a bit of trouble with magic guard, as it can't be worn down. I feel C is underrating it.
Empoleon: B- > B - Agree. It's a very good and underated mon, with good bulk and typing, reliable recovery, utility and B- is generally underating it. I personally support a move up, it's a very good defensive defogger.
Skarmory: B+ > A- - Considering I nommed it a while back, I think you know I Agree. the custap lead set is very effective, despite slight 4MSS, and it makes a good wall too. It's just a bit better than the rest of B+ for me.
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B - Disagree. It's a good wallbreaker, but then again there are many other good wallbreakers that don't take a mega slot. It has a hard time V offense unless it's the double priority set, I just think in general C+ is the best rank for it rn, despite it's great power. It doesn't appreciate the speed creep for XY either.
Starmie: A to A+ - Disagree. Both the Reflect Type and Offensive Spinner sets are very good, but IMO people are playing up it's capabilities. Once you know the set, it's not as hard to play around, the offensive set has little bulk and the defensive set is just not as good as people make out. If it had the capability to check, even with less quality, the stuff it checks with each set in one, I would support this, but it can't.
Tyrantrum: C+ to B- - Agree. It's got some good sets and capability as a wallbreaker and a decent setup sweeper, although it struggles with offense I think it's more than good enough to hit the B ranks.
Alakazam: C to C+ - Agree. Alakazam, especially sashed, it a big pain for offensive teams. While it doesn't appreciate a few mons on offense (Bish, MLop, anything scarfed etc), it can come in and out without giving a damn about SR + Spikes due to magic guard, and force a switch or KO something. It's not too hard to play around but is a big pain. It also gives stall a bit of trouble with magic guard, as it can't be worn down. I feel C is underrating it.
Thoughts on the current slate:
Empoleon: B- > B - Agree. Reverb would agree. Anyways, Empoleon has excellent bulk and can be Ev'd to survive Lando EQ's, etc... It can be a phazer, rocker, and a defogger in one. Also it can spam Scald in OU without risking dying. Very interesting to see that Agility sets haven't been used yet, it seems interesting.
Skarmory: B+ > A- - Agree. Skarmory fits on stall, suicide lead on HO, emergency check to a sweeper, a phazer, etc... It has the ability to fulfill many roles while getting better with the release of the Custap Berry
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B - Disagree. It's an extremely good wallbreaker but it has 4MSS seeing as no matter what it runs, something will wall it. Additonally, common pokemon like Slowbro and Hippowdon can check it, while Sabeleye is basically a hard stop to it.
Starmie: A to A+ - Agree. asdf why do I like this thing so much I have it on almost all of my teams. Spinning has been rising in popularity because you don't get rid of your own hazards, especially on spike stacking teams. It also checks keldeo and some other pokemon. It is similar to Tentacruel but with more offensive capabilities and different typing to check different things. Its offensive set I haven't used as much but Analytic is really cool
Tyrantrum: C+ to B- - Agree. Its Choice Band set is very scary and so can its DD. However it can't set up or switch in on much, although its physical bulk is ok. It also checks Talonflame yay.
Alakazam: C to C+ - Agree. What even switches in to this thing lol. The combination of Psychic/shock, Shadow Ball and Focus Blast are amazing. It also has several filler moves it can use like Taunt, Calm Mind, Protect (scouting and other things like Sucker Punch mindgames)
Empoleon: B- > B - Agree. Reverb would agree. Anyways, Empoleon has excellent bulk and can be Ev'd to survive Lando EQ's, etc... It can be a phazer, rocker, and a defogger in one. Also it can spam Scald in OU without risking dying. Very interesting to see that Agility sets haven't been used yet, it seems interesting.
Skarmory: B+ > A- - Agree. Skarmory fits on stall, suicide lead on HO, emergency check to a sweeper, a phazer, etc... It has the ability to fulfill many roles while getting better with the release of the Custap Berry
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B - Disagree. It's an extremely good wallbreaker but it has 4MSS seeing as no matter what it runs, something will wall it. Additonally, common pokemon like Slowbro and Hippowdon can check it, while Sabeleye is basically a hard stop to it.
Starmie: A to A+ - Agree. asdf why do I like this thing so much I have it on almost all of my teams. Spinning has been rising in popularity because you don't get rid of your own hazards, especially on spike stacking teams. It also checks keldeo and some other pokemon. It is similar to Tentacruel but with more offensive capabilities and different typing to check different things. Its offensive set I haven't used as much but Analytic is really cool
Tyrantrum: C+ to B- - Agree. Its Choice Band set is very scary and so can its DD. However it can't set up or switch in on much, although its physical bulk is ok. It also checks Talonflame yay.
Alakazam: C to C+ - Agree. What even switches in to this thing lol. The combination of Psychic/shock, Shadow Ball and Focus Blast are amazing. It also has several filler moves it can use like Taunt, Calm Mind, Protect (scouting and other things like Sucker Punch mindgames)
Thoughts on the current slate:
Empoleon: B- > B - Agree. While I haven't used Empoleon a lot (or even seen it used that much), Empoleon could definitely be moved up to B. It can take a surprising amount of punishment, is a defogger that can resist SR, synergizes well with a lot of major players on balanced and stall teams, such as Mega Latias, and can counter a lot of Fairies that are common these days.
Skarmory: B+ > A- - Agree. I've been playing around with its Custap set lately, and I definitely like how effective it is in stacking hazards, and it can even get a few KOs w/ Brave Bird or Iron Head against the right Pokemon. And this is in addition to both of its defensive sets, which remain excellent on balanced and stall teams. I definitely think Skarmory has gained enough with its new Custap set, and the continued viability of its old sets, that it deserves to move up.
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B - Disagree. Don't get me wrong, Mega Medicham's a great Pokemon, and a great wallbreaker. The problem is, while it's a great wallbreaker, right now, this tier is practically overflowing with fantastic wallbreakers. Charizard Y, Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem-B, Keldeo, Lando-I...that's just the five I thought of off the top of my head. I get that priority and more immediate power give it an edge in some respects than Mega Gallade, but Mega Gallade recently moved down because the tier has shifted against it, and even with Bullet Punch to handle Fairies a bit more easily, I don't really see that the tier has shifted to be in favor of Mega Medicham at all. I think C+ is fine at the moment.
Starmie: A to A+ - Disagree. Why do I disagree with a Pokemon that is currently seeing use on most of my teams, that has been one of my favorites ever since Gen 1, moving up? I'd argue that while Starmie is really good right now, it's a bit lacking compared to the other A+ers. Its offensive set has significantly less power than most of the offensive A+ers, while its defensive set has significantly lower defenses than most of the defensive A+ers. Starmie's very versatile, very splashable onto most teams, and has a LOT of utility with Rapid Spin, however its sets are fairly predictable and not too hard to counter. I feel that while Starmie is excellent, it has just enough things holding it back not to justify a raise to A+.
Tyrantrum: C+ to B- - Agree. Eh, I really don't care for Tyrantrum, but I can't deny it has a great deal of power with its CB set, and makes for an excellent wallbreaker due to hitting a lot of things that are popular right now really hard. I'm not as impressed with its DD set, as Tyrantrum's typing isn't really great for setting up, even though it can actually take a few hits. However, its ability to take those hits is actually the tipping point for me. If it couldn't take those hits, I'm not sure it would justify a raise, but with a decent amount of bulk, especially compared to the aforementioned Mega Medicham, I could see Tyrantrum moving up to B-, but not much further at the moment.
Alakazam: C to C+ - Agree. I don't have a long rationale for this one, but given its high special power and speed and broad movepool that enables it to get at least a neutral hit on pretty much everything, I don't see any problem having it at C+
Empoleon: B- > B - Agree. While I haven't used Empoleon a lot (or even seen it used that much), Empoleon could definitely be moved up to B. It can take a surprising amount of punishment, is a defogger that can resist SR, synergizes well with a lot of major players on balanced and stall teams, such as Mega Latias, and can counter a lot of Fairies that are common these days.
Skarmory: B+ > A- - Agree. I've been playing around with its Custap set lately, and I definitely like how effective it is in stacking hazards, and it can even get a few KOs w/ Brave Bird or Iron Head against the right Pokemon. And this is in addition to both of its defensive sets, which remain excellent on balanced and stall teams. I definitely think Skarmory has gained enough with its new Custap set, and the continued viability of its old sets, that it deserves to move up.
M-Medicham: C+ to B-/B - Disagree. Don't get me wrong, Mega Medicham's a great Pokemon, and a great wallbreaker. The problem is, while it's a great wallbreaker, right now, this tier is practically overflowing with fantastic wallbreakers. Charizard Y, Mega Gardevoir, Kyurem-B, Keldeo, Lando-I...that's just the five I thought of off the top of my head. I get that priority and more immediate power give it an edge in some respects than Mega Gallade, but Mega Gallade recently moved down because the tier has shifted against it, and even with Bullet Punch to handle Fairies a bit more easily, I don't really see that the tier has shifted to be in favor of Mega Medicham at all. I think C+ is fine at the moment.
Starmie: A to A+ - Disagree. Why do I disagree with a Pokemon that is currently seeing use on most of my teams, that has been one of my favorites ever since Gen 1, moving up? I'd argue that while Starmie is really good right now, it's a bit lacking compared to the other A+ers. Its offensive set has significantly less power than most of the offensive A+ers, while its defensive set has significantly lower defenses than most of the defensive A+ers. Starmie's very versatile, very splashable onto most teams, and has a LOT of utility with Rapid Spin, however its sets are fairly predictable and not too hard to counter. I feel that while Starmie is excellent, it has just enough things holding it back not to justify a raise to A+.
Tyrantrum: C+ to B- - Agree. Eh, I really don't care for Tyrantrum, but I can't deny it has a great deal of power with its CB set, and makes for an excellent wallbreaker due to hitting a lot of things that are popular right now really hard. I'm not as impressed with its DD set, as Tyrantrum's typing isn't really great for setting up, even though it can actually take a few hits. However, its ability to take those hits is actually the tipping point for me. If it couldn't take those hits, I'm not sure it would justify a raise, but with a decent amount of bulk, especially compared to the aforementioned Mega Medicham, I could see Tyrantrum moving up to B-, but not much further at the moment.
Alakazam: C to C+ - Agree. I don't have a long rationale for this one, but given its high special power and speed and broad movepool that enables it to get at least a neutral hit on pretty much everything, I don't see any problem having it at C+
This recycled "Sableye is a hard stop to Cham" argument is getting really old. Lol. If you go ahead and read firehusky's argument a few pages back, he basically states why this mon isnt that huge a problem (Common S Rank threats such as Altaria / Lando-I also shit on it) The sole reason Cham should move up a rank is due to the scarce amount of available mons that can switch into it (Literally limited to SlowBro / Mew/ Cresselia / Sableye / Defensive Landorus, but Landorus doesnt like taking repeated Zen Headbutts) Once this thing gets inside, something will either flat out die, or even a resist will take tons of damage (Offensive Starmie takes about 99% max for example, then gets picked off by BP) If a Defensive team doesnt carry one of the aforementioned Defensive answers to Medicham, then health bars and bodies drop. In conclusion, the main niche Cham has>Gallade is being checked by..not as much as Gallade (For example, Unaware Clef and Hippo can easily take on Gallade) As well as double prio which inherently gives Cham a better matchup vs Offense (Fake Out also plays a cool role in anti-leading Skarm / Loom etc)
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 222-261 (84.7 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 249-294 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not a bad check at all [:
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 249-294 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Not a bad check at all [:
This is the viability rankings, just because your teammates can take care of something like Mega-Sableye, doens't mean the pokemon being discussed can.
I'm not gonna lie that Medicham rips apart teams, I used it so much and thought it was amazing till I realized everyone carried a check to it, whether by design or accident. The problem is Mega Medicham can struggle vs stall because of Mega Sableye and it is revenge killed easily against offense and balance.
This is true, but how often does it get in with its poor bulk. It can come in on stall teams but what stalll team doesn't have an answer to this thing (and most have Mega Sableye). Versus offense it isn't as good and it can certainly wreck slower bulky offense/balance teams.
I'm not gonna lie that Medicham rips apart teams, I used it so much and thought it was amazing till I realized everyone carried a check to it, whether by design or accident. The problem is Mega Medicham can struggle vs stall because of Mega Sableye and it is revenge killed easily against offense and balance.
I am completely aware that this is the viability ranking thread haha. I meant Sableye's usage has generally decreased a bit due to the prevalence of Altaria / Lando-I. Wasnt leaning toward "A teammate can take care of X mon" mindset.
Its actually pretty easy for Cham to get inside safely due to usually being paired with Defensive Volt-Turn oriented partners such as Rotom-W & Landorus. Not to mention its fairly easy to lead with, as Medicham has a great lead matchup vs the majority of the tier (Which also translates to being able to freely Mega via Fake Out) I literally just stated why Cham has a good matchup vs Offense (Double prio that allows it to consistently weaken, or pick off weakened mons)
Its actually pretty easy for Cham to get inside safely due to usually being paired with Defensive Volt-Turn oriented partners such as Rotom-W & Landorus. Not to mention its fairly easy to lead with, as Medicham has a great lead matchup vs the majority of the tier (Which also translates to being able to freely Mega via Fake Out) I literally just stated why Cham has a good matchup vs Offense (Double prio that allows it to consistently weaken, or pick off weakened mons)
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Ah but if you are pairing it with Volt Turn cores (which is good ngl, I used that) then that is the support it needs. Obviously Volt Turn is great and is actually on many teams but there are other threats that work great with Volt Turn cores, Mega Medicham is not neccessarily your first thought when you think "What offensive threat works well with Volt Turn). Also, double priority isn't as good as it seems. Picking off threats is great but that's not exactly what you want your mega to be doing. More immediate power but less bulk and speed are what make it worse than Gallade, given Gallade's ability to sweep and also wallbreak decently with SD.
In response to the "What Offensive threat works well with Volt-Turn", I know Cham usually isnt added on to these cores for that purpose. I meant in a sense of building around the mon
Having less bulk is generally irrelevant in the case of an Offensive mon, especially when its typing combination doesnt give Cham / Gallade any noteable resistances (This is a completely different case when looking at Keldeo / Metagross, who are both Offensive mons that are capable of switching into a nice chunk of mons by virtue of natural bulk and fairly good Defensive typing)
I dont feel like Gallade having the ability to wallbreak with SD is much of an argument either, as that actually takes a turn. Which is unfortunately pretty hard to find a set up oppurtunity in a fairly fast-paced meta. Tbh, Gallade will barely ever "Sweep" successfully due to being revenged easily by common mons on Offense such as Talon / Scarf Lando / Thundurus. Defensive teams, namely Stall, has answers to +2 Gallade, specifically Unaware Clef and Quagsire (Who, again, Cham has little to no problem breaking)
since April's Fools is over I guess I can get away with posting this
Hippowdon is very good but A+ is kinda overstating its abilities. Being a defensive Pokemon obviously doesn’t stop you from being A+ rank, after all, Clefable, Gliscor and Sableye are all bound to defensive sets and are still solid A+ ranks. But you need to set yourself apart from other walls to really justify that rank. You’ve got Clefable’s fantastic support options and versatility, Gliscor’s great passive recovery, and Sableye’s ability to prevent any stallbreaking tactic. Hippwdon doesn’t really have anything special to offer besides tons of bulk and SR (which it is admittedly excellent at). Unlike the 3 other Pokemon mentioned it lacks the great utility of Knock Off, immunity to Toxic, (which is a pretty big deal for a defensive Pokemon since that prevents it from truly threatening stall and balance), and though it can run differing spreads, has little to no versatility in what it can run, which makes it pretty easy to handle defensively. I guess Toxic does cripple a good number of its switchins and is pretty spammable but it has to sacrifice Stone Edge and Whirlwind which limits its ability to actually beat stuff like Taunt Talonflame, NP Thundurus, Gengar and MPinsir, and a lot of Pokemon like Manaphy, Celebi, Starmie, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory and don’t care either way. All in all it’s easier to take advantage of than anything in A+ rank.
And although it has the ability to beat a large amount of threats in theory, in practice it can’t really do all at once. Like, it can beat XZard and Bisharp but it can’t handle both in a single battle. So, if your XZard and Bisharp checks are both Hippowdon, you will probably end up losing to teams that carry both. XZard+Bish is a pretty extreme example since even with max phys def Hippo can lose to both, but the same goes for stuff like Lopunny, Talonflame, Excadrill, Garchomp, really anything used specifically to weaken physical walls like Hippo. The fact that it’s worn down a lot by Spikes and pretty much killed by Toxic Spikes doesn’t help either. Hippowdon needs too much support to do its job properly for me to see it in A+, it feels more on par with Celebi and Ferrothorn to me.
Starmie doesn’t really feel like an A+ rank to me either. I think the main reason why is that it has to choose between the ability to handle stuff defensively and offensively, to the point where it’s either taken advantage of or dies pretty fast. For example, running max HP gives you mediocre firepower, while running max SpA gives you mediocre bulk. If you run Psyshock become pursuit trappable, if you run Reflect Type you lose to Keldeo. Without Ice Beam it loses to Grass types and Latis, without TBolt it loses to Water types. And sure, it runs what its team needs it to run for the team, but even so, dying before you can provide hazard removal and being setup fodder for a bunch of things are 2 pretty unfortunate things for a team to have to deal with. I don’t think it’s quite on the same level as Latios who has a much easier time consolidating everything it wants to do in one set.
I definitely agree with Infernape moving up though, in fact it may fit well in B- as opposed to just C+. It’s just so versatile in what it can do. of course offensive lead sets are pretty nice, but there’s a ton of other stuff it’s capable of. It can pose a pretty big offensive threat with NP and SD (both have problems vs Latis and Talonflame but those aren’t the hardest threats to account for especially when ScarfTar exists), but it can also be a surprisingly good defensive Pokemon. For instance, I once needed a rock setter that beat YZard and Bisharp on a semistall team, so I opted for a specially defensive Infernape with SR, Slack Off, Rock Slide and Low Kick. Seems kinda dumb, but it was exactly what that team needed, so it worked. And Infernape just has so many options to support a given team, you can pretty much run whatever you want on it depending on what you require. Infernape has some serious untapped potential and deserves to move up.
As for Blissey moving up, I agree for the most part. I’m not sure if I would go as far as B though. The lack of physical bulk is pretty problematic, especially against Latios and Gardevoir (who 2HKO with Psyshock) as well as Pursuit TTar which deals a lot more damage to Blissey then it can to Chansey. But since many Gardevoirs run Taunt, Chansey isn’t an answer to it either, and Stall usually runs another answer to Latios, usually Jirachi or Clefable, so these two Pokemon aren’t necessarily something Chansey will be your first swicthin to.
And being able to take on Knock Off Landorus and Gengar better are pretty good niches. And as WCAR mentioned, Leftovers does make a big difference, especially given how easy Chansey is to wear down with chip damage from stuff like Rotom and Manectric Volt Switches and burn/poison/hazards damage, and how much of a problem it is for it. I can definitely see Blissey being more attractive than Chansey to a lot of teams.
I’ve already posted about Tyrantrum being B- worthy before and I stand by it. Honestly there’s not much to say about it, it’s just an excellent tool for weakening physical walls for other Pokemon to sweep and a big threat to balanced teams because of this. It fits on teams quite easily and has little trouble switching in thanks to its solid bulk, even having a couple of defensive applications like beating Talonflame. It does one thing but it does it well enough to warrant B- in my eyes.
Hippowdon is very good but A+ is kinda overstating its abilities. Being a defensive Pokemon obviously doesn’t stop you from being A+ rank, after all, Clefable, Gliscor and Sableye are all bound to defensive sets and are still solid A+ ranks. But you need to set yourself apart from other walls to really justify that rank. You’ve got Clefable’s fantastic support options and versatility, Gliscor’s great passive recovery, and Sableye’s ability to prevent any stallbreaking tactic. Hippwdon doesn’t really have anything special to offer besides tons of bulk and SR (which it is admittedly excellent at). Unlike the 3 other Pokemon mentioned it lacks the great utility of Knock Off, immunity to Toxic, (which is a pretty big deal for a defensive Pokemon since that prevents it from truly threatening stall and balance), and though it can run differing spreads, has little to no versatility in what it can run, which makes it pretty easy to handle defensively. I guess Toxic does cripple a good number of its switchins and is pretty spammable but it has to sacrifice Stone Edge and Whirlwind which limits its ability to actually beat stuff like Taunt Talonflame, NP Thundurus, Gengar and MPinsir, and a lot of Pokemon like Manaphy, Celebi, Starmie, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory and don’t care either way. All in all it’s easier to take advantage of than anything in A+ rank.
And although it has the ability to beat a large amount of threats in theory, in practice it can’t really do all at once. Like, it can beat XZard and Bisharp but it can’t handle both in a single battle. So, if your XZard and Bisharp checks are both Hippowdon, you will probably end up losing to teams that carry both. XZard+Bish is a pretty extreme example since even with max phys def Hippo can lose to both, but the same goes for stuff like Lopunny, Talonflame, Excadrill, Garchomp, really anything used specifically to weaken physical walls like Hippo. The fact that it’s worn down a lot by Spikes and pretty much killed by Toxic Spikes doesn’t help either. Hippowdon needs too much support to do its job properly for me to see it in A+, it feels more on par with Celebi and Ferrothorn to me.
Starmie doesn’t really feel like an A+ rank to me either. I think the main reason why is that it has to choose between the ability to handle stuff defensively and offensively, to the point where it’s either taken advantage of or dies pretty fast. For example, running max HP gives you mediocre firepower, while running max SpA gives you mediocre bulk. If you run Psyshock become pursuit trappable, if you run Reflect Type you lose to Keldeo. Without Ice Beam it loses to Grass types and Latis, without TBolt it loses to Water types. And sure, it runs what its team needs it to run for the team, but even so, dying before you can provide hazard removal and being setup fodder for a bunch of things are 2 pretty unfortunate things for a team to have to deal with. I don’t think it’s quite on the same level as Latios who has a much easier time consolidating everything it wants to do in one set.
I definitely agree with Infernape moving up though, in fact it may fit well in B- as opposed to just C+. It’s just so versatile in what it can do. of course offensive lead sets are pretty nice, but there’s a ton of other stuff it’s capable of. It can pose a pretty big offensive threat with NP and SD (both have problems vs Latis and Talonflame but those aren’t the hardest threats to account for especially when ScarfTar exists), but it can also be a surprisingly good defensive Pokemon. For instance, I once needed a rock setter that beat YZard and Bisharp on a semistall team, so I opted for a specially defensive Infernape with SR, Slack Off, Rock Slide and Low Kick. Seems kinda dumb, but it was exactly what that team needed, so it worked. And Infernape just has so many options to support a given team, you can pretty much run whatever you want on it depending on what you require. Infernape has some serious untapped potential and deserves to move up.
As for Blissey moving up, I agree for the most part. I’m not sure if I would go as far as B though. The lack of physical bulk is pretty problematic, especially against Latios and Gardevoir (who 2HKO with Psyshock) as well as Pursuit TTar which deals a lot more damage to Blissey then it can to Chansey. But since many Gardevoirs run Taunt, Chansey isn’t an answer to it either, and Stall usually runs another answer to Latios, usually Jirachi or Clefable, so these two Pokemon aren’t necessarily something Chansey will be your first swicthin to.
And being able to take on Knock Off Landorus and Gengar better are pretty good niches. And as WCAR mentioned, Leftovers does make a big difference, especially given how easy Chansey is to wear down with chip damage from stuff like Rotom and Manectric Volt Switches and burn/poison/hazards damage, and how much of a problem it is for it. I can definitely see Blissey being more attractive than Chansey to a lot of teams.
I’ve already posted about Tyrantrum being B- worthy before and I stand by it. Honestly there’s not much to say about it, it’s just an excellent tool for weakening physical walls for other Pokemon to sweep and a big threat to balanced teams because of this. It fits on teams quite easily and has little trouble switching in thanks to its solid bulk, even having a couple of defensive applications like beating Talonflame. It does one thing but it does it well enough to warrant B- in my eyes.
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My thoughts on the current slate:
- Empoleon should stay in B-. It doesn't like half the coverage that Fairies carry, and lack of reliable recovery is crippling, relying on WishPass to stay healthy.
- Skarmory should rise a A-. The fact stands that it's Custap Lead gets out at least two rounds of hazards, or at least gets one up depending on matchup. While it does lose otu 1v1 against other leads like Azelf, and Infernape as two examples, it's lack of needing Focus Sash is great, giving it the ability to either A. Suicide on the Spin/Defog with Brave Bird. B. Stack more hazards. Or C. Taunt.
- Mega Medicham should rise to B. This thing hits like a truck driver on steroids on the freeway, while it lacks a way to get past bulky psychics, team support mitigates this, thus prompting it being in B ranking, because it needs it. Fairies don't like Bullet Punch, Fake Out is a free turn, and HJK/ZenButt STABS coming off of Pure Power 100 Attack is extremely forceful. It loses out on bulky Psychics like Mew, but bring something like Bisharp to handle them. It also loves slow Volt/Turn support.
- Starmie should stay in A. It's Reflect Type set often loses out since things do carry moves that are super effective to themselves commonly, but on certain mons it does do some work. The offensive spinner set is great, but it's well, offensive. Not saying that's bad, but offensive teams don't need it. It does nail common Keldeo switch ins however, which is really good considering it's a Pokemon to prepare for. But other than that, it's STABS are good, and it does get alright coverage, but it's attacking stats are sub pa. Albeit the great speed tier.
- Tyrantrum I have no hard presses where it goes, but imo it should go to B-. I used to use Banded Head Smash Aggron back when it was good, this thing is basically that but with
t-rex swagslightly better attack and speed, making it an excellent wallbreaker. Almost NOTHING switches into a STAB Head Smash that doesn't deal recoil. - Alakazam should stay in C. It's good as a revenge killer, and it does have great stats, but it just dies to priority. BB kills it, Bullet Punch KOs it, and it doesn't do much to our S rank friends. Scarf Keldeo also revenges it. Shadow Ball probably isn't an OHKO on Metagross. Even with Focus Sash repeated pressure makes it cry. It's frail and a gust of wind, especially on the physical side of the spectrum nails it dead.
252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Metagross: 216-255 (71.7 - 84.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO.
Seconding Infernape's rise to at least C+. A bulky Physically defensive set with WoW/Taunt/Slack Off/Filler (Usually CC/Low Kick/Rock Slide/Fire Punch, depending on what you want covered) can be great, letting you set up on things like Mew for instance and letting you crush Bisharps as well as TTar, while still being able to burn and cripple things like Gyarados and Azumarill on the switch. Plus, a decent-enough speed tier without much investment helps too (for Taunt, although you can forgo that in favor of SR or more coverage, depending on what you need). Is it the best defensive pokemon? No, but again, Infernape's versatility is what makes it good enough to go to at least C+ (preferably B-).
Speaking of Infernape, has anyone used an All-Out Attacker set with LO? I feel like it has a pretty underutilized movepool including Gunk Shot for fairies which also smacks Latis pretty hard, Grass Knot for bulky waters like Slowbro and just a pretty general good mix of coverage already with Fire Blast / Close Combat.
Either way I haven't used it enough myself to have a really valid opinion on its ranking but it's a fast pokemon with a pretty solid movepool and typing, I could definitely see it rising.
Either way I haven't used it enough myself to have a really valid opinion on its ranking but it's a fast pokemon with a pretty solid movepool and typing, I could definitely see it rising.
I didn't played Hippowdon much but it doesn't look A+ to me. Don't get me wrong, is possibly one of the most potent walls of OU, and has a lot of positives, but saying in the level of top A+ threats is too much.
Pros.
-It has Base 108 HP, Base 118 Def and a not too shabby Base 72 SpD.
-It has reliable recovery in the form of Slack Off, think that many physical walls (see you, Mega Aggron) don't have.
-It has the ability Sand Stream, causing him to be a reliable setter of Sandstorm in Sand Teams, and also crippling some walls of the opposing team thanks to Sandstorm damagae.
-It has a decent-ish Base Attack of 112.
-Resist Stealth Rocks, which is key for a defensive Pokemon.
Neutral.
It has a Ground typing. Pure Ground is a decently good type but that type doesn't have that many resistances (only resist Poison and Rock and is inmune to Electric) but has three weakness of Warer, Grass, ice.
Cons:
-It has slight 4MSS, it has to chose between Stone Edge to take on most common Flyers, Ice Fang to take care of Landorus-I and T, Gliscor, Dragonite, Garchomp, or Roar to be a better wall or pseudo-haze but witht he rrisk of beign walled by Flyers.
-It doesn't resist Water, grass and Ice types, types that are usually related to Special types (although not as much in OU and as in lower tiers)*
-Sand Stream is good to take walls, but it restricts teambuilding, even more on defensive teams. Those types of teams don't want to see passive damage. One fot he better examples is Mega Venusaur, who is a bad partner of Hippowdonr simply because Sand Stream neutering him (other wise, Thick Fat cuasing to beneutral to ice (which is great, specially if STAB Ice Beam is not present), and resisting water and Grass could make an excellent idea).
-Like with Donphan (who has 120 base Attack), its damage output is dissapointing with no investiment in Attack, even for STAB Earthquake.
*This could be the reason why Hippowdon is lower in viability in UU, where is a lot of Water and Grass types that uses special moves.
And now, about Toxica and walls...
-Defensive Pokemon hate two moves in particular: Taunt and Toxic. Those mvoes cause an almsot full stop to a lot of defensive Pokemon. Then, why Toxic is seena s "stall" rather than "anti-stall"? Because OU' stall teams have more than half of the team being good on Toxic.
Let's see:
Clefable: 3/4 of Clefable has Magic Guard, rendering Toxic useless. Also, the set that is affected by Toxic usually has heal Bell (The way of identify if Clefable is nered by Toxic is if Clefable takes SS damage, SR and/or Spikes damage, etc).
Sableye (Mega): Mega Sableye has Magic Boucne, rendering Toxic going backt o the user. (Mega Sabeleye is so good because the usual stallbreaking tactics don't work).
Glsicor: It has Poison Heal, meanign that the only thing Toxic will do is restore health.
Heatran: Inmune to Toxic.
Scizor (Mega): Inmune to Toxic.
Celebi: It has Heal Bell and it's ability is Natural Cure.
Ferrothorn: Inmune to Toxic.
Hippowdon: Actually, it's neutered by Toxic.
Slwobro: it has Regenerator, although Toxic is slightly effective.
Mega Slowbro: Toxic destroys it.
Mega latias: If it's the CM + Stored Power sets, affected by Toxic.
Mega Venusaur: Inmune to Toxic.
Jirachi: Inmuen to Toxic
Mew: It's usually heavily affected by Toxic, but he could ahve Heal bell.
Chansey: it could have Heal Bella nd his ability is none other than Natural Cure.
Skarmory: Inmune to Toxic
Tentacruel: Inmune to Toxic.
Ammonguss. Inmune to Toxic.
Cresselia: Toxic Destroys her.
quagsire: It hates Toxic, but usually don't come in common Toxic users.
Pros.
-It has Base 108 HP, Base 118 Def and a not too shabby Base 72 SpD.
-It has reliable recovery in the form of Slack Off, think that many physical walls (see you, Mega Aggron) don't have.
-It has the ability Sand Stream, causing him to be a reliable setter of Sandstorm in Sand Teams, and also crippling some walls of the opposing team thanks to Sandstorm damagae.
-It has a decent-ish Base Attack of 112.
-Resist Stealth Rocks, which is key for a defensive Pokemon.
Neutral.
It has a Ground typing. Pure Ground is a decently good type but that type doesn't have that many resistances (only resist Poison and Rock and is inmune to Electric) but has three weakness of Warer, Grass, ice.
Cons:
-It has slight 4MSS, it has to chose between Stone Edge to take on most common Flyers, Ice Fang to take care of Landorus-I and T, Gliscor, Dragonite, Garchomp, or Roar to be a better wall or pseudo-haze but witht he rrisk of beign walled by Flyers.
-It doesn't resist Water, grass and Ice types, types that are usually related to Special types (although not as much in OU and as in lower tiers)*
-Sand Stream is good to take walls, but it restricts teambuilding, even more on defensive teams. Those types of teams don't want to see passive damage. One fot he better examples is Mega Venusaur, who is a bad partner of Hippowdonr simply because Sand Stream neutering him (other wise, Thick Fat cuasing to beneutral to ice (which is great, specially if STAB Ice Beam is not present), and resisting water and Grass could make an excellent idea).
-Like with Donphan (who has 120 base Attack), its damage output is dissapointing with no investiment in Attack, even for STAB Earthquake.
*This could be the reason why Hippowdon is lower in viability in UU, where is a lot of Water and Grass types that uses special moves.
And now, about Toxica and walls...
-Defensive Pokemon hate two moves in particular: Taunt and Toxic. Those mvoes cause an almsot full stop to a lot of defensive Pokemon. Then, why Toxic is seena s "stall" rather than "anti-stall"? Because OU' stall teams have more than half of the team being good on Toxic.
Let's see:
Clefable: 3/4 of Clefable has Magic Guard, rendering Toxic useless. Also, the set that is affected by Toxic usually has heal Bell (The way of identify if Clefable is nered by Toxic is if Clefable takes SS damage, SR and/or Spikes damage, etc).
Sableye (Mega): Mega Sableye has Magic Boucne, rendering Toxic going backt o the user. (Mega Sabeleye is so good because the usual stallbreaking tactics don't work).
Glsicor: It has Poison Heal, meanign that the only thing Toxic will do is restore health.
Heatran: Inmune to Toxic.
Scizor (Mega): Inmune to Toxic.
Celebi: It has Heal Bell and it's ability is Natural Cure.
Ferrothorn: Inmune to Toxic.
Hippowdon: Actually, it's neutered by Toxic.
Slwobro: it has Regenerator, although Toxic is slightly effective.
Mega Slowbro: Toxic destroys it.
Mega latias: If it's the CM + Stored Power sets, affected by Toxic.
Mega Venusaur: Inmune to Toxic.
Jirachi: Inmuen to Toxic
Mew: It's usually heavily affected by Toxic, but he could ahve Heal bell.
Chansey: it could have Heal Bella nd his ability is none other than Natural Cure.
Skarmory: Inmune to Toxic
Tentacruel: Inmune to Toxic.
Ammonguss. Inmune to Toxic.
Cresselia: Toxic Destroys her.
quagsire: It hates Toxic, but usually don't come in common Toxic users.
Every flaw you mentioned bar SD taking a turn goes double for Medicham. Medicham is incredibly easy to revenge kill due to its middling speed and piss poor defenses, and I'm actually baffled by the amount of hype the Bullet Punch set is getting, it nerfs your ability to bypass things like Slowbro and Landorus for a piss weak priority move that ever so slightly helps you vs offense, which isn't why you'd use Megacham anyway. Gallade's bulk lets it take neutral special hits and even things like +1 Mega Gyara's Waterfall in a pinch letting it SD or retaliate back, not to mention the much better speed tier. The idea that Megacham fares better vs offense than Gallade is false.
There are three commom defensive Pokemon Medicham beats that a +2 Gallade can't, max defense Hippo, Unaware Clef (+0 Gallade already 2HKOs Quagsire lol ), and Mega Altaria. Meanwhile the things Gallade can beat that Medicham can't includes things like Celebi, Slowbro, Mew, Reuniclus, and anything between the 100 and 110 speed tier.
I also don't get the "Oh this thing has obvious flaws but it can be covered by team support so it's not a problem" argument, which applies to pretty much everything.
Every factor that prompted Gallade to move down also affects Medicham negatively, and I can't personally see this a whole rank above say Mega Pidgeot, which is an equally outclassed Pokemon that can be deadly against a certain playstyle. It's fine in C+.
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I tried to skim through to make sure this poke hadn't already been discussed or blacklisted, but 103 pages is a lot to go through, so I may have missed it.
I'd like to bring Forretress up for discussion for a potential D rank.
Snapple (Forretress) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
- Gyro Ball
Now I know you're going to say, "there are better spinners/defoggers out there, it's severely outclassed." And to that I'd say you're correct. You also might say that there are better hazard setters as well. You'd be right there as well. What allows Forretress to shine is his access to hazards, rapid spin, and volt switch. No other pokemon in the game bar Smeargle can learn a combination of rapid spin/defog, stealth rock/spikes/toxic spikes, and volt switch/u-turn.
In addition to a good movepool, Forretress also has great physical bulk and typing granting him 8 resistances, one immunity, and only one weakness. That weakness is 4X fire, which is common coverage, but that is it's one weakness. With full investment in HP and Def, Forretress can eat up attacks from the most common physical attackers (ones lacking fire type coverage) in the tier and proceed to set up rocks or slow volt switch out and let a stronger, frailer poke come in for the kill. Another small plus is that overcoat lets it shit on Brelooms face, or any other powder user.
Here are a few calcs
For a little extra umph in this effort, Forretress shits all over DD Mega Altaria (if it lacks fire type coverage)
After two DD's, Mega Altaria can only 3HKO Forretress, and Forretress can OHKO back with gyro ball.
Really any DD user besides Mega Gyrados will be hurt by gyro ball harder and harder the more times they set up.
This is not the only useful set for Forretress, as he has an interesting movepool and access to custap berry, but this set has proved particularly useful for me. Therefore, I think Forretress should be considered viable in OU.
I found some old stuff on Forretress. I agree he is passive, but Forretress is still capable of playing three roles on a single team with a single set. Those roles being a hazard setter, hazard remover, and physical tank. Nobody else in the game can do all three, and then u-turn/volt switch out. While Forretress is passive, he does reliably slow switch out. He ties for the slowest volt switch/u-turn user in the game, meaning he will almost always allow a free switch in.
I'd like to bring Forretress up for discussion for a potential D rank.
Snapple (Forretress) (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
- Gyro Ball
Now I know you're going to say, "there are better spinners/defoggers out there, it's severely outclassed." And to that I'd say you're correct. You also might say that there are better hazard setters as well. You'd be right there as well. What allows Forretress to shine is his access to hazards, rapid spin, and volt switch. No other pokemon in the game bar Smeargle can learn a combination of rapid spin/defog, stealth rock/spikes/toxic spikes, and volt switch/u-turn.
In addition to a good movepool, Forretress also has great physical bulk and typing granting him 8 resistances, one immunity, and only one weakness. That weakness is 4X fire, which is common coverage, but that is it's one weakness. With full investment in HP and Def, Forretress can eat up attacks from the most common physical attackers (ones lacking fire type coverage) in the tier and proceed to set up rocks or slow volt switch out and let a stronger, frailer poke come in for the kill. Another small plus is that overcoat lets it shit on Brelooms face, or any other powder user.
Here are a few calcs
For a little extra umph in this effort, Forretress shits all over DD Mega Altaria (if it lacks fire type coverage)
After two DD's, Mega Altaria can only 3HKO Forretress, and Forretress can OHKO back with gyro ball.
Really any DD user besides Mega Gyrados will be hurt by gyro ball harder and harder the more times they set up.
This is not the only useful set for Forretress, as he has an interesting movepool and access to custap berry, but this set has proved particularly useful for me. Therefore, I think Forretress should be considered viable in OU.
I found some old stuff on Forretress. I agree he is passive, but Forretress is still capable of playing three roles on a single team with a single set. Those roles being a hazard setter, hazard remover, and physical tank. Nobody else in the game can do all three, and then u-turn/volt switch out. While Forretress is passive, he does reliably slow switch out. He ties for the slowest volt switch/u-turn user in the game, meaning he will almost always allow a free switch in.
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As a sand setter, I actually prefer tyranitar more. Hippowdon is really passive, earthquake isn't doing much against any decently bulky pokemon. Tyranitar has lots more utility, such as being able to set up sr, pursuit trap starmie and gengar and the lati twins, and lure in lando-i with ice beam and lure in ferrothorn with fire blast. Once hippo sets up sand and sr it pretty much just sits there taking attacks and using slack off, so it's much more passive than tyranitar. Sand is such an offensive playstyle; hippo is usually too passive for sand offense. I mean if you want two sand setters that's ok, but in most cases I almost always find myself using tyranitar over hippowdon just because hippowdon is too passive and tyranitar has a much better offensive presence and more offensive utility I guess. Also tyranitar can afford to hold smooth rock whereas in most cases hippowdon will usually appreciate leftovers more to constantly switch in on the stuff it's supposed to counter.
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