Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[p2]

Here's something I've been thinking about for a while and it's probably going to be controversial as hell, but here goes.

Mega Scizor for S rank

I don't know if it's just my matchups or whatever, but I feel that Mega Scizor is one of the biggest threats in the metagame, up there with Mega Metagross, Altaria and Keldeo. It's really good in the meta right now and is one of the best counters for Mega Metagross and hard checks for Mega Altaria, not to mention it just destroys your bulky balance mons like Ferrothorn and it turns things like ScarfTar into setup fodder.
Sure a bunch of things like Keldeo or Rotom-W stop it, especially the bulky SD set, but what doesn't have counters? Once its checks are weakened, it can breaks through them with ease.

It's defensive capabilities are simply amazing with 70/140/100 defenses, being able to check and counter a plethora of threats in OU while being a very efficient late game cleaner and win condition for teams and unprepared teams just get destroyed.
Not to mention that almost nothing can switch into the offensive variant safely because things like Heatran lose to Superpower, Slowbro loses to Bug Bite and anything that can switch in just cannot take 2 +2 Bug Bites or it's going to be heavily weakened and easy for Scizor to pick off the next time it comes in if it's unable to recover.
Then there's the Defog set which is pretty underrated, it's an extremely bulky Defogger that can threaten Bisharp with Superpower and can easily take a hit from it at +2, while being able to heal with Roost.

But I think all these qualities and unpredictability add up to make Mega Scizor one of the best pokemon in the metagame right now and I think it's really underrated despite rising up to A+ not too long ago.

Here are 2 replays from laddering, which just show how good it's bulk is in practice and how easily it can setup on the metagame and how it can be a very solid defensive backbone and win condition for teams.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-223544625
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-223552104

 

[pika pal]

Here's something I've been thinking about for a while and it's probably going to be controversial as hell, but here goes.

Mega Scizor for S rank

I don't know if it's just my matchups or whatever, but I feel that Mega Scizor is one of the biggest threats in the metagame, up there with Mega Metagross, Altaria and Keldeo. It's really good in the meta right now and is one of the best counters for Mega Metagross and hard checks for Mega Altaria, not to mention it just destroys your bulky balance mons like Ferrothorn and it turns things like ScarfTar into setup fodder.
Sure a bunch of things like Keldeo or Rotom-W stop it, especially the bulky SD set, but what doesn't have counters? Once its checks are weakened, it can breaks through them with ease.

It's defensive capabilities are simply amazing with 70/140/100 defenses, being able to check and counter a plethora of threats in OU while being a very efficient late game cleaner and win condition for teams and unprepared teams just get destroyed.
Not to mention that almost nothing can switch into the offensive variant safely because things like Heatran lose to Superpower, Slowbro loses to Bug Bite and anything that can switch in just cannot take 2 +2 Bug Bites or it's going to be heavily weakened and easy for Scizor to pick off the next time it comes in if it's unable to recover.
Then there's the Defog set which is pretty underrated, it's an extremely bulky Defogger that can threaten Bisharp with Superpower and can easily take a hit from it at +2, while being able to heal with Roost.

But I think all these qualities and unpredictability add up to make Mega Scizor one of the best pokemon in the metagame right now and I think it's really underrated despite rising up to A+ not too long ago.

Here are 2 replays from laddering, which just show how good it's bulk is in practice and how easily it can setup on the metagame and how it can be a very solid defensive backbone and win condition for teams.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-223544625
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-223552104

Though controversial, I can get behind this nomination to a good degree.

Mega Scizor is a Pokemon that always seems to adapt to whatever the Metagame brings. Has this thing ever left A+ since getting in there? Mega Altaria moved up on similar grounds (a multitude of very effective sets that collectively add up to S-Rank), but I'd say Scizor has at least as many, if not more viable sets compared to Altaria, and arguably a better typing. It's actually bulkier physically than Altaria, about as much so Specially, and usually has room to run Roost on its sets if need be. Scizor has probably some of the most relevant priority next to Talonflame thanks to Technician, Swords Dance to boost himself to ridiculous power levels quickly, a plethora of useful move options (Superpower for common answers, Pursuit to trap more defensive targets, Knock Off to cripple defensive targets), and the versatility to use any and all of them effectively for his team. Scizor's typing allows him to counter Mega Metagross, arguably one of offense and balance's biggest pains, and check other problematic mons such as Gengar, Diancie, Kyurem-B, Mega Gardevoir, Gliscor (w/ a SD + Roost set), among others.

Mega Scizor is just a very adaptable mon, and he can play very well on almost any playstyle as Hazard Support, a Glue, Set-up Sweeper, or a cleaner.

 

[bludz]

Definitely a controversial nomination. I'm going to say that I disagree for now just based on the popularity of Keldeo and increasing Manaphy and Spdef Talon usage. The metagame trends just don't favor a rise IMO but there is potential in the future I think.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I don't agree with a Mega Scizor rise. You have loads of stuff like fast Heatran, WoW Talonflame, subCM Keldeo, Torn-T etc. that really does stop it from being S imo. It's definitely a metagame defining threat, however it shouldn't be S.

 

[zbr]

Definitely a controversial nomination. I'm going to say that I disagree for now just based on the popularity of Keldeo and increasing Manaphy and Spdef Talon usage. The metagame trends just don't favor a rise IMO but there is potential in the future I think.

To top it off, it's not just any Mana set, but it's HP FIRE Mana rising. I really don't think it should be rising at this point of time. Will elaborate more on my point later.

 

[Celticpride]

Here's something I've been thinking about for a while and it's probably going to be controversial as hell, but here goes.

Mega Scizor for S rank

I don't know if it's just my matchups or whatever, but I feel that Mega Scizor is one of the biggest threats in the metagame, up there with Mega Metagross, Altaria and Keldeo. It's really good in the meta right now and is one of the best counters for Mega Metagross and hard checks for Mega Altaria, not to mention it just destroys your bulky balance mons like Ferrothorn and it turns things like ScarfTar into setup fodder.
Sure a bunch of things like Keldeo or Rotom-W stop it, especially the bulky SD set, but what doesn't have counters? Once its checks are weakened, it can breaks through them with ease.

It's defensive capabilities are simply amazing with 70/140/100 defenses, being able to check and counter a plethora of threats in OU while being a very efficient late game cleaner and win condition for teams and unprepared teams just get destroyed.
Not to mention that almost nothing can switch into the offensive variant safely because things like Heatran lose to Superpower, Slowbro loses to Bug Bite and anything that can switch in just cannot take 2 +2 Bug Bites or it's going to be heavily weakened and easy for Scizor to pick off the next time it comes in if it's unable to recover.
Then there's the Defog set which is pretty underrated, it's an extremely bulky Defogger that can threaten Bisharp with Superpower and can easily take a hit from it at +2, while being able to heal with Roost.

But I think all these qualities and unpredictability add up to make Mega Scizor one of the best pokemon in the metagame right now and I think it's really underrated despite rising up to A+ not too long ago.

Here are 2 replays from laddering, which just show how good it's bulk is in practice and how easily it can setup on the metagame and how it can be a very solid defensive backbone and win condition for teams.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-223544625
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-223552104

Between fast Heatran, Talonflame, and Keldeo being common, in addition to the resurgence of the Zards and Volc, the meta isn't really Scizor friendly. It's a great piece sure, but isn't meta-defining by any stretch of the imagination. The offensive set gets worn down due to lack of recovery and is pretty easy to check overall (not really high on the list of need to have a switch-in for either, compared to Zards, Diancie, Gross, Fairies, etc.). The bulkier sets are way overblown in terms of being a wincon as well. Scizor uses its bulk to check stuff but if you are getting swept by the bulky SD set you should really rethink your defensive cores. Of course it can sweep with its checks worn down, so can pretty much every other sweeper in the A ranks. Maybe there would be a case for this if Meta got banned, but with an offensive Steel as dominant as Metagross still here Scizor stands out a lot less. Heck, Meta can even run BP to revenge Fairies and other worn down targets. Scizor is pretty good sure (especially in bulky defensive cores), but not really close to meta defining really and that's what the S rank is for.

Edit: also a little bit confused by the whole "take 2 +2 Bug Bites" bit. If you switch-in on the SD and are faster you don't even have to take one...

 

[Srn]

Between fast Heatran, Talonflame, and Keldeo being common, in addition to the resurgence of the Zards and Volc, the meta isn't really Scizor friendly. It's a great piece sure, but isn't meta-defining by any stretch of the imagination. The offensive set gets worn down due to lack of recovery and is pretty easy to check overall (not really high on the list of need to have a switch-in for either, compared to Zards, Diancie, Gross, Fairies, etc.). The bulkier sets are way overblown in terms of being a wincon as well. Scizor uses its bulk to check stuff but if you are getting swept by the bulky SD set you should really rethink your defensive cores. Of course it can sweep with its checks worn down, so can pretty much every other sweeper in the A ranks. Maybe there would be a case for this if Meta got banned, but with an offensive Steel as dominant as Metagross still here Scizor stands out a lot less. Heck, Meta can even run BP to revenge Fairies and other worn down targets. Scizor is pretty good sure (especially in bulky defensive cores), but not really close to meta defining really and that's what the S rank is for.

Edit: also a little bit confused by the whole "take 2 +2 Bug Bites" bit. If you switch-in on the SD and are faster you don't even have to take one...

eeeh one small nitpick:
if anything, mzor would move DOWN, not UP if/when mmeta gets banned.
Mzor being one of the only counters to this monster (that should've been banned lol) is very very valuable to BO teams; and is honestly one of the main reasons people bother to use it.

other than that i have to agree mzor is not S worthy when its so absurdly easy to check/rk it. It's simply too easy to handle and its often covered quite well throughout a natural teambuilding process (the same reason I think keldeo should be brought down but hey that's off topic)

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Alright, anyone who has ever seen me on PS can attest that I tend to use Mega Scizor teams most of the time, so I have quite a bit of experience with it. So, I think it should tell you something that I definitely oppose Mega Scizor rising to S. As many people above have said, there's a ton of things in common use right now that are either Fire type, or carry HP Fire. Generally, they do so specifically to counter Mega Scizor. This shows that Mega Scizor is definitely a metagame defining threat, and something people have to prepare for. However, there are a crapton more things that can counter Mega Scizor than there are things that can counter most of the things in S right now. Even Mega Altaria can be harder to counter based solely on the huge variety of sets it can carry, some of which can do well against things that might otherwise counter or check it. Mega Scizor, however, will always take huge (and probably fatal) damage from Fire attacks, and it doesn't have a great selection of moves for countering fire types. There's also a ton of things that can check Mega Scizor. Bulky Waters like Suicune are very difficult for Scizor to overcome on its own, while Scizor gets ruined if it takes a Scald burn. I could name a few other archetypes that check it well, but you should get the point. Mega Scizor is usually difficult to switch into if it's able to set up, but it is by no means impossible, and for some teams it's downright easy. Plus, each major set for it has a big flaw that needs to be taken into account when building around it. The standard SD + 3 attacks offensive set has huge amounts of power, and plenty of coverage, but it has no recovery, so it can be worn down much more quickly than you'd expect by looking at its bulk. Speaking of bulk, the Bulky SD version (my personal favorite) has problems in that it lacks power compared to the offensive set, meaning it pretty much has to set up with SD, which means that it's a lot easier to switch into. And, while it's a somewhat lesser concern, it misses being able to run BP, Knock Off, and Superpower at the same time. Meanwhile, the Defog/Defensive Utility set can take a lot more punishment, but it has a significantly reduced offensive presence. Even BP does much less damage when compared to many other hazard removers. None of this is insurmountable, and can be counteracted with good teambuilding, which should be pretty obvious from the fact that S-rank is even a credible nomination for it to begin with. However, all of these flaws combined make Mega Scizor fall short of being as dangerous on its own as any of the current S-rankers are. So, I believe that A+ rank is perfect for it at the moment.

 

[AM]

M-Scizor gets pressured as hell to do a lot of stuff at once and isn't like M-Altaria or Landorus where you can prep for these and still get annihilated by them over something insanely stupid like a coverage move or set you weren't expecting or preparing for, which happens a lot more than people think these days. M-Scizors role is pretty linear and the thing about being linear that Keldeo exceeds at over M-Scizor is that clicking Scald is much more mindless and less opportunity cost in the majority of cases on top of its pros than using the entirety of M-Scizor itself ever. Takes a good amount of legitimate effort to even establish it as a wincon. Like I had a match with ArchPhantom just for fun using the bulky SD set and I spent the entirety of the match trying to net this win-condition cause he just had natural stuff like HP Fire Offensive Starm, bulky chomp, and M-Lopunny in the back just firing off HJK's with not a single care in the world for something that's suppose to be "bulky" not being a consistent switch in with the hazard pressure. You would think that for something that falls under S it'd be a bit easier to actually pull off sweeps but there's actually quite a good amount of things that can hold it back in a match and is really just riding on the trend of fairies and M-Gross along with the defensive utility it packs these days. It's definitely not S.

 

[bludz]

Just to add onto the "Keldeo clicking Scald" has a lower opportunity cost than anything Mega Scizor can do:

I think one of the misconceptions about Keldeo is that dealing with it isn't so difficult because from a teambuilding perspective it's not super constraining like Landorus or Metagross. Yeah Starmie and Latis are very strong checks to it and they are also commonly used to provide hazard removal, but Keldeo puts pressure on them to perform both roles successfully which makes it a much harder mon to deal with in practice than in theory. And y'know, Scald is the devil.

 

[skies]

eeeh one small nitpick:
if anything, mzor would move DOWN, not UP if/when mmeta gets banned.
Mzor being one of the only counters to this monster (that should've been banned lol) is very very valuable to BO teams; and is honestly one of the main reasons people bother to use it.

other than that i have to agree mzor is not S worthy when its so absurdly easy to check/rk it. It's simply too easy to handle and its often covered quite well throughout a natural teambuilding process (the same reason I think keldeo should be brought down but hey that's off topic)

Wait I don't follow the logic in your first part of this. Mega Metagross isn't getting banned soon, and you shouldn't just say "it should move down because a Pokemon I think should be banned will get banned" because that's a.) unlikely and b.) not in the current metagame. Being a counter to Mega Metagross isn't the only reason it's used, it's also used because it's kind of a great Pokemon with great bulk and excellent power. And great revenge killing and cleaning potential.

I don't have an opinion on whether or not it should raise or not, but this logic seems flawed.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

eeeh one small nitpick:
if anything, mzor would move DOWN, not UP if/when mmeta gets banned.
Mzor being one of the only counters to this monster (that should've been banned lol) is very very valuable to BO teams; and is honestly one of the main reasons people bother to use it.

other than that i have to agree mzor is not S worthy when its so absurdly easy to check/rk it. It's simply too easy to handle and its often covered quite well throughout a natural teambuilding process (the same reason I think keldeo should be brought down but hey that's off topic)

Yeah, I have to agree with unfixable. The first paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. MegaGross was already suspected and stayed in the tier. The next suspect test, assuming the rumors are true, is definitely not gonna be a retest for MegaGross, so he's not going anywhere anytime soon. So, if MegaGross is not gonna be going anywhere, Mega Scizor is not gonna be going down unless the meta shifts drastically. Speculating what might happen if MegaGross ever gets banned is utterly pointless. I agree with you that it should not be in S-rank, but...uh, please make sensible posts.

 

[Baharoth]

Imo the main reason why Scizor doesn't deserve S Rank is how match up dependent it is. I've had quite a few games already where the opposing team had nothing to deal with bulky Scizor and just got 6-0ed by it as its bulk on both sides of the spectrum is hard to break. Combine that with the fact that it has just one weakness and isn't the most prominent/dominant mon in the meta (aka ppl don't think much about it during team building) and you can find lots of teams that are un/underprepared for it and therefor easy prey. There is another side to this though. There are mons around who make Scizor, especially the defensive set, almost useless until they are removed. Breaking through mons like Keldeo or Rotom-w can be difficult, depending on the coverage you run there are other mons like Slowbro (if lacking Bugbite/Knock off) or Heatran (if lacking Superpower) who are hard stops among many others. Then there is Magnezone who has an easy time removing the defensive set. And then there are things like Zard X/Y who put tons of pressure on you just because your running Scizor, as every time you bring him in, they get a free switch. And considering how hard it is to deal with them its difficult to make a team around Scizor that isn't weak against at least one of the 2.

So no, Scizor is cool and often underprepared for atm but its not S rank material, in fact even if we put it in S rank now because the meta is underprepared for it, that would change sooner or later and he would drop back to A+ where he belongs.

Regarding Medicham i think its still underrated here and I am confident it will go higher in the future. B- is still to low for it imo. The power to tear apart any defensive core that lacks Sableeye/Slowbro with its stabs alone combined with dual priority to take out faster threats is amazing. If one really wants to he could even run a sub/foresight set to take advantage of Sableeye but with Sables decreasing popularity and the huge amount of faster mons running around its not really worth it imo.

/edit my fault, forget it -.-

 

[DarkNostalgia]

Foresight is bounced by Magic Bounce o_o js lol

 

[p2]

Between fast Heatran, Talonflame, and Keldeo being common, in addition to the resurgence of the Zards and Volc, the meta isn't really Scizor friendly. It's a great piece sure, but isn't meta-defining by any stretch of the imagination. The offensive set gets worn down due to lack of recovery and is pretty easy to check overall (not really high on the list of need to have a switch-in for either, compared to Zards, Diancie, Gross, Fairies, etc.). The bulkier sets are way overblown in terms of being a wincon as well. Scizor uses its bulk to check stuff but if you are getting swept by the bulky SD set you should really rethink your defensive cores. Of course it can sweep with its checks worn down, so can pretty much every other sweeper in the A ranks. Maybe there would be a case for this if Meta got banned, but with an offensive Steel as dominant as Metagross still here Scizor stands out a lot less. Heck, Meta can even run BP to revenge Fairies and other worn down targets. Scizor is pretty good sure (especially in bulky defensive cores), but not really close to meta defining really and that's what the S rank is for.

Edit: also a little bit confused by the whole "take 2 +2 Bug Bites" bit. If you switch-in on the SD and are faster you don't even have to take one...

I messed up about the Bug Bite, I meant take a +2 Bug Bite but I was thinking about something else and it just went off. At that point I was thinking of slow stuff like slow Manaphy, Mixed Defenses Hippowdon, Amoonguss, Mandibuzz, the list goes on, Scizor pretty much puts a massive dent into anything not named Skarmory or faster than it and can finish them off later if they're pressured into not being able to heal.
Despite mons like Zard and Volcarona rising, none of them want to switch into Scizor. The only thing out of the 5 mons you mentioned that can reliably deal with Mega Scizor is Keldeo because everything else runs the risk of getting hit by Superpower or coming in on a Swords Dance and getting OHKO'd after rocks by Bullet Punch.

M-Scizor gets pressured as hell to do a lot of stuff at once and isn't like M-Altaria or Landorus where you can prep for these and still get annihilated by them over something insanely stupid like a coverage move or set you weren't expecting or preparing for, which happens a lot more than people think these days. M-Scizors role is pretty linear and the thing about being linear that Keldeo exceeds at over M-Scizor is that clicking Scald is much more mindless and less opportunity cost in the majority of cases on top of its pros than using the entirety of M-Scizor itself ever. Takes a good amount of legitimate effort to even establish it as a wincon. Like I had a match with ArchPhantom just for fun using the bulky SD set and I spent the entirety of the match trying to net this win-condition cause he just had natural stuff like HP Fire Offensive Starm, bulky chomp, and M-Lopunny in the back just firing off HJK's with not a single care in the world for something that's suppose to be "bulky" not being a consistent switch in with the hazard pressure. You would think that for something that falls under S it'd be a bit easier to actually pull off sweeps but there's actually quite a good amount of things that can hold it back in a match and is really just riding on the trend of fairies and M-Gross along with the defensive utility it packs these days. It's definitely not S.

Like I said, "I don't know if it's just my matchups" because I've been having an incredibly easy time using Mega Scizor and I'm doing pretty well on the ladder with it. I don't know if it's a strange trend of the meta not being properly prepared for it, but Scizor definitely finds easy setup opportunities very often.
But I think it kinda just boils down to the team it's on, because my team gives it the support it needs to be an efficient sweeper, Gliscor handles status abusers, TTar handles things like Starmie or HP Fire Latis, Slowbro handles Lopunny and CharX and so on, while providing valuable Thunder Wave support that lets Scizor break Heatran, if it can boost to +6.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Wait I don't follow the logic in your first part of this. Mega Metagross isn't getting banned soon, and you shouldn't just say "it should move down because a Pokemon I think should be banned will get banned" because that's a.) unlikely and b.) not in the current metagame. Being a counter to Mega Metagross isn't the only reason it's used, it's also used because it's kind of a great Pokemon with great bulk and excellent power. And great revenge killing and cleaning potential.

I don't have an opinion on whether or not it should raise or not, but this logic seems flawed.

Yeah, I have to agree with unfixable. The first paragraph makes no sense whatsoever. MegaGross was already suspected and stayed in the tier. The next suspect test, assuming the rumors are true, is definitely not gonna be a retest for MegaGross, so he's not going anywhere anytime soon. So, if MegaGross is not gonna be going anywhere, Mega Scizor is not gonna be going down unless the meta shifts drastically. Speculating what might happen if MegaGross ever gets banned is utterly pointless. I agree with you that it should not be in S-rank, but...uh, please make sensible posts.

Both of you are being completely unfair, if you ask me. Srn was merely replying to someone who stated that Mega Scizor might have a chance for S Rank if Mega Metagross had been banned, thus removing major competition as an offensive Steel Mega. Srn wasn't the first one to bring up the hypothetical Mega Metagross ban, he did not state that he thought Mega Metagross should have been/will be banned, and he didn't say that Mega Scizor should move down now on the grounds that Mega Metagross will eventually be banned. He was simply addressing one comment that Celticpride brought up in the first place, and he made it clear at the beginning that it was only a "small nitpick" to begin with.

Context, people. Context is key.

 

[Celticpride]

To be clear, that was just to address possible leftover suspect ladder mentality, because Mega Scizor was being hyped big time as a Fairy killer iirc, and hasn't had too much discussion after the suspect. The suspect ladder was a while ago now that I think about it so it's mostly a moot point.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Although I personally hold M-Scizor in high regards, I do not believe it deserves S rank. It can be covered well with various mons like Heatran, Gliscor, and Slowbro, but all in all almost every team will have a fire attack strong enough to put a massive dent while still taking a +2 Bullet Punch. However, if given enough time, with proper hazard control M-Scizor can make a frightening late game sweeper, as its checks and counters would be put into a range where a +2 Bullet Punch can KO its offensive checks, while a +2 Knock Off can finish off its weakened defensive counters. However, it can not completely clean through teams like M-Altaria or put a chunk into almost anything like Megagross.

Overall people who say M-Scizor should be moved down are simply underrating it as a threat, while people saying it needs S rank are overstating its abilities with oddball coverage moves that will leave it weak to something else. It is a great Pokemon deserving of A+ due to its versatility, bulk, and power, but it is not as meta-defining as Landorus-I, M-Altaria, or Megagross right now(I did not mention Keldeo on purpose. I personally do not find it worthy of an S rank as most teams have a built in counter to it, unlike the other S ranks who must be actively thought about during the team building process).

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Both of you are being completely unfair, if you ask me. Srn was merely replying to someone who stated that Mega Scizor might have a chance for S Rank if Mega Metagross had been banned, thus removing major competition as an offensive Steel Mega. Srn wasn't the first one to bring up the hypothetical Mega Metagross ban, he did not state that he thought Mega Metagross should have been/will be banned, and he didn't say that Mega Scizor should move down now on the grounds that Mega Metagross will eventually be banned. He was simply addressing one comment that Celticpride brought up in the first place, and he made it clear at the beginning that it was only a "small nitpick" to begin with.

Context, people. Context is key.

You're right. Somehow I completely overlooked the quoted post in the post I responded to. My deepest apologies to Srn for jumping the gun

 

[s_aman]

My first post in this thread and it is 110 pages long already. o_O
Moving onto the main stuff, Mega Scizor does not belong in S imo. I know it has good mixed bulk and only one weakness. But, that one weakness can be fairly easily exploited. Lets compare it with the S ranked mons: M-Alt is fairly versatile. It sets up on a large portion of metagame due to its resistances and bulk while another set is a pretty good wallbreaker. Pixilate Hyper Voice is very spammable as it's resists can be covered with coverage. Keldeo has choice specs scald, nuf said. But, seriously Keld is a scary wallbreaker. It wreaks balance with its sub CM set and fairs well against most offense. Do I even need to talk about Landorus and Mega Meta? What all these pokemon have in common is that they fair pretty well against all playstyles irrespective of their sets. Their checks and counters can be taken advantage of (pursuit for most keld counters, coverage / magnezone for alraria. Other two don't have true c&c.). Compare that to m-scizor. It has got a fair share of checks and most of the time tweaking its moveslot will not make up for that. It faces competition for the role of fairy check with the one and only mega metagross, which has a much better speed, more power, better coverage and a lot less checks and allows you to cover larger amount of threats in one slot.

 

[North Gate]

I'd like to nominated Volcarona from A- to A rank
Its Newest and most used set
Volcarona (M) @ Passho Berry/ lum berry/life orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain/ Bug Buzz
- Hidden Power [Ground]

Has GREAT coverage and power/and has sweeping potential. The ONLY negative ive seen people bring up with Volcarona is its 50 percent weakness to sr BUT in this metagame hazard removal is at a preimun and starmie does it so well. Volcarona is a mon that deserve much more respect and its about time it gets some, on the right team it can be a killer (replays to come)
Also ik this is a COMPLETELY different thing but ho-oh is s minus in ubers with the same sr weakness (not comparing ubers to ou or rona to ho-oh but i thought it was noteworthy)

Look dude, I know you're a newer player and I know you're just posting your opinion which is welcome here but you didn't mention how Volc has serious 4MSS and btw it's Bug Buzz/HP Ground being slashed, if it doesn't have Bug Buzz it gets walled by Latias more, and Latios but less bulk. No HP Ground leaves it walled by Heatran and no Giga Drain leaves it at the cusp for bulky waters like MegaToise, AV Azumarill, and Tentacruel. WHich Tentacruel already saps your health away with Giga Drain anyway. Tenta is actually hit with HP Ground but still. The thing is you can't compare Ho-Oh being S- in Ubers because that's a different metagame, maybe rocks aren't so common there? I don't know but still. Now you could say stuff about Charizard and Talonflame (talon has priority roost) but they have ways to beat common rock setters and they can Roost up unlike Volc which if it has Roost it's 4MSS is seen even more because it gets walled by so much shit without the extra coverage. While Volc is a potent sweeper it gets walled by so much common shit it's ridiculous and that keeps it from getting any higher atm. Passho isn't even that useful, btw.

 

[Yugi]

welp dazzling gleam on gengar is used,for Dark types.Focus Blast is a little bit weaker.Also prior to rock damage skarm gets lower dmg than mandi,which is important in this metagame.Also having sturdy does guarantee defog/rocks/spikes/tspikes any hazards and hazard removal.Also Diancie does completely outbreaks mandibuzz with his typing as both of his stabs being strong againts mandi,while skarm having iron head and putting a dent in Diancie if not OHKOing it.While i know it has taunt and all those moves and can deal with some pokemon i think mandi should go to C+.There are better replacements for mandi in my opinion.





Volcarona to A

I will have to disagree.This is a great pokemon in my opinion and i love using it but...SR weakness is just too primal in this metagame and having mediocre,bulk and defenses it has a bad matchup againts most pokemon.Also his typing isnt very promising,it does get rid of his fire weaknesses while getting a ground neutrality is bad because,EQ,it also gives her/him idk,a 4 times weakness to rock typing and a water weaknesses as the most used move is scald.It has mediocre defensive stats with not too shabby of 105 base special defense but it is rarely invested,4 invested in Spdef isnt that promising.

252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 232-274 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

now imagine if this came from a salamence or a garchomp.

That is why i think that Volc shouldnt be in A.

 

[ChipButty]

Everything that I think about the current slate has pretty much been said already, so I just thought that I'd say that I agree with the nomination of Kyurem-B moving up that was made a few pages ago. This guy has seen a bit more use recently, largely because it is excellent at dismantling common defensive cores on balance, which is the most popular playstyle currently. It can smack typical fat 'Mons like Celebi, Heatran, Rotom-W, Gliscor and Landorus-T, making it a valuable asset against teams using these kinds of Pokemon. In a nutshell, I think that Kyurem-B deserves a raise because of its solid wallbreaking capabilities in the current meta and its variety of decent sets (Life Orb, AV, Sub + 3 attacks, Scarf; you get the idea). I wouldn't mind too much if it didn't move up but I just thought I'd give my opinion.

 

[teamsnickers]

Look dude, I know you're a newer player and I know you're just posting your opinion which is welcome here but you didn't mention how Volc has serious 4MSS and btw it's Bug Buzz/HP Ground being slashed, if it doesn't have Bug Buzz it gets walled by Latias more, and Latios but less bulk. No HP Ground leaves it walled by Heatran and no Giga Drain leaves it at the cusp for bulky waters like MegaToise, AV Azumarill, and Tentacruel. WHich Tentacruel already saps your health away with Giga Drain anyway. Tenta is actually hit with HP Ground but still. The thing is you can't compare Ho-Oh being S- in Ubers because that's a different metagame, maybe rocks aren't so common there? I don't know but still. Now you could say stuff about Charizard and Talonflame (talon has priority roost) but they have ways to beat common rock setters and they can Roost up unlike Volc which if it has Roost it's 4MSS is seen even more because it gets walled by so much shit without the extra coverage. While Volc is a potent sweeper it gets walled by so much common shit it's ridiculous and that keeps it from getting any higher atm. Passho isn't even that useful, btw.

ty for your opinion (Im not really a newer player I been on showdown for 2-3 years and been in worlds, vcg but still)

Anyway to your point, the point of not running bug buzz is that EVERY time you bring in volc a heatran will come in and that will stop the sweep
Passho is actually extremely useful as someone said before, letting it set up on keldeo or giga a azumaril (trust me it helps)
I cannot deny that it has 4MSS but latios/latias is so easy to counter this metagame and pursuit trappers are at sucha high quantity you really need bug buzz IMO
About Ho-oh, I said this in my post about how its a different metagame and this was just to show that a 4k weakness to rocks can be overcame

The set of QD, Fire blast, giga, hp ground Leaves it MAINLY only weak to latios,latias and thats pretty good coverage and yes some other things can take a hit from it but nothing to overwhelming
Ty for your points, 4MSS is def its biggest problem

"@KratosMana I agree with your positions on diff rankings and such, but I do think that HP Ground and Passho Berry are decent options on Volcarona that you're kinda underrating. Dual STABs + HP Ground isn't even that bad of a set, although in many cases it is suboptimal. Replacing Bug Buzz is very viable if it's backed by Pursuit support to take care of the Latis (let's say you're using TTar + Exca for anti-hazard). Heatran alone is enough reason to run it because Volcarona is a fantastic lure for it, and it can be one of the largest obstacles to a Volcarona sweep. Passho Berry prevents Volcarona from being RK'd by CB Azumarill's Aqua Jet and has misc uses vs other Water-type attacks eg Scarf Keldeo if Volcarona isn't at full (a normal situation), setting up on Rotom-W with relative ease, setting up on bulky Water Scalds (Starmie and Slowbro are main examples). Considering that Water is a fairly dominant typing both offensively and defensively, Passho Berry makes sense as an option, of course depending on preference and the particular team."
^Jukain summing up Passho Berry

 

[firehusky]

Lol you're acting like the only counters to Volcarona are the Lati twins, and that's not true. Talonflame, Mega Aerodactyl, Zard Y, Dragonite, Chansey, Gyarados, are all decently popular mons that can take a hit or two from Volcarona.