• Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!

ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Giratina-O = B-: This mon is just exhausted tbh. This thing is struggling to make a name for itself. The current metagame is full of gamebreakers and this mon literally lacks the bulk to tank hits anymore. I'd rather waste a mega slot on mega-salamence, which in my opinion is 1000× times better than this when used for defensive purposes.

For people who use a giratina-o to check/counter SD ground-arceus:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ubers-233750945

I remember using this thing back in xy, it was a great defogger back then, it used to completely anti-lead deoxys offence back then, it gave a new birth to hazards offence back then. This thing was at it's absolute best back then.

I'm just generally tired of this mon now.

Conclusion: BAN PRIMAL-GROUDON IF YOU WANNA MAKE SHIT WORK IN THIS METAGAME!
 
may i ask why trash like rayquaza is a- but not deoxys-attack? The lo 4 attacks set with ice beam/espeed/psycho boost/superpower is a really good set that works well against all archetypes wether against ho,balance or stall.Against HO it's speed and priority plus sheer power makes it a pain sure,you can argue ekiller can revenge it but its not like ekiller is switching in anytime soon and most deo-a teams have to carry answers for priority so thats not an issue.Against Balance,it puts a dent in everything due to its sheer power and does the same versus stall.It provides cool utility such as the ability to revenge kill darkrai,mewtwo,weakened ekiller with espeed,weakened geoxern with espeed etc etc.The sash set is also cool as it basically allows it to be a one time check to a lot of sweepers on ho such as mence if its sash is intact.So,yeah definitely a- material imo but it may be due to me not liking the fact that its the same rank as mons such as mmx xD
 
Here are some calcs:
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Ice Beam vs. +1 248 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 190-226 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 208 SpD Primal Groudon: 368-434 (91 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Deoxys-A Psycho Boost vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Ghost: 356-421 (80.1 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 
Hi, I'm new to the Uber forum; well not exactly new, I've been reading a lot of the uber thread. I was wondering why Arceus Water is rank at A- in a Groudon P meta?

Defog water arceus beats support primal groudon 1 on 1 actually as it runs toxic to cripple it and support p don can't 2hko water arceus and water arceus will stall it out with recover. It also checks ho-oh.
 
Update time. Fairly quiet this week but we have a few changes.

Change List:

Giratina-O: A- >>> B
(B- feels a little low)
Rayquaza: A- >>> B+
Deoxys-A: B+ >>> A-

Discussion Points:

Nobody reads or answers to these so ima just leave them out in future. Things are gonna be quiet i imagine now that UPL is basically over so anything goes.
 
Update time. Fairly quiet this week but we have a few changes.

Change List:

Giratina-O: A- >>> B
(B- feels a little low)
Rayquaza: A- >>> B+
Deoxys-A: B+ >>> A-

Discussion Points:

Nobody reads or answers to these so ima just leave them out in future. Things are gonna be quiet i imagine now that UPL is basically over so anything goes.
I read them, but I just don't answer because I'm not exactly an Ubers expert. :(

I'm very curious about Deo-A's rise mostly. Care to explain?
 
I'm very curious about Deo-A's rise mostly. Care to explain?
First of all, Sash Deo A is good vs offense since it murders Deo-S while having it's sash still and kills another Pokemon at least before dying. It also has a great movepool which makes it totally unpredictable. It could run taunt,Hazards,and all kind of coverage moves so you are actually facing an unpredictable pokemon.
Now talking about the LO deoxys-A vs Balance and teams without priority if played well It gets a kill everytime it comes in. Like superpower from LO deals 90% to klefki and 1 shots rockceus and ferrothorn , psycho boost kills max hp don 1 hit and its also fast enough to kill lati twins with knock offs and mewtwos shaymins etc so yeah It's very quick and hits really hard and has a powerful priority so it's definitely A- material.
 
I'm confused on why Ditto is even ranked. Sure, it's a decent revenge killer, but it is now out classed by nearly anything in the Uber tier. It gets choice-locked into a move which the opponent can take advantage of for free turns. Even if you get a kill, Ditto can be predicted around until it is killed, or it is forced out. When it's choice-locked into a move, the opponent can switch in to a Pokemon that could care less about an Earthquake or an Aerilate Return and begin to set up.
Ditto C- to Unranked
132.gif
[/IMG]
132.gif
 
I'm confused on why Ditto is even ranked. Sure, it's a decent revenge killer, but it is now out classed by nearly anything in the Uber tier. It gets choice-locked into a move which the opponent can take advantage of for free turns. Even if you get a kill, Ditto can be predicted around until it is killed, or it is forced out. When it's choice-locked into a move, the opponent can switch in to a Pokemon that could care less about an Earthquake or an Aerilate Return and begin to set up.
Ditto C- to Unranked
132.gif
[/IMG]
132.gif

Define "outclassed."

Ditto's role is unique which no other Pokemon shares, in that it's basically able to revenge kill anything. It's a massive pain to Hyper Offense. You might get locked into a move but chances are it won't matter at that point since 1) You've already revenge killed the threat you needed to. 2) The move you're locked into is really powerful and can sweep the opp's team (think Xerneas's +2 Moonblast or +1 Mence, +2 Ekiller etc).

"the opponent can switch in to a Pokemon that could care less about an Earthquake or an Aerilate Return and begin to set up."

Setting up isn't the best thing to do when Ditto's around. It may give free set up when it's locked into the wrong move, but why can't it just switch out and switch back in to revenge the setting up Pokemon? It's horrible against Balance or Stall but that's why it's C-, which is low enough. Unranked would mean it has no niche, but Ditto does have a small niche of its own to justify a rank.
 
I'm really confused as to what discussion occurred as to make Rayquaza drop a subrank, as any implication of doing so was just a "i think we should drop Ray" by Sweep, as I really don't think it falls under the same utility as MMX in most senses. Rayquaza has a lot of things going for it that are more effective; being a soft PDon+POgre check is really interesting for something with rather subpar bulk. I also don't need to reiterate that Dragon Ascent essentially forces anything out that doesn't have massive Defense investment, while even mons like Salamence need to boost in order to do significant damage (not discrediting Mence though, that thing is insane). The only real thing that affected Ray in a negative way in this metagame is the lessening of weather teams (that and a bit more prevalence of Lugia+support Arc on stall, but that's only a minor setback), which was a nice ability to have, but wasn't the main selling point of Ray, which is to wallbreak pretty much everything but Lugia+support Arc. It's not even pressured into using specific moves other than Dragon Ascent and possibly EQ, meaning it can fit a bit better onto teams. Overall I see it around the viability of Deo-A and Ttar, which is why I think Rayquaza should be moved back up to A- Rank.

But, I'm not necessarily disappointed that Ray is B+ rn, I just think it's underselling its abilities; however, I do not think it should drop any further than it is at the moment (it's not as team specific as mons such as Zek or Wobb). If anything, I just want a justifiable reason why it dropped or at least an inkling of why it dropped; it just seemed so sudden and pushed and I really want some closure, but I am extremely biased about this mon anyway.

??? I didn't comment on Ray except to say it's a borderline case. I NEVER said "I think we should drop it." I'm fine with it being B+ or A-.

I apologize if I came off as a bit condescending, but this was the only hint of information that I saw that correlated to Ray's drop.
 
Last edited:
??? I didn't comment on Ray except to say it's a borderline case. I NEVER said "I think we should drop it." I'm fine with it being B+ or A-.

Note: it's fine canman lol. Ray is kinda average vs HO and stall (the latter of which will usually have two solid checks to it) but excels vs. certain balance builds. Priority and and soft checking both primals is also cool, it's just tough to fit sometimes.
 
Feeling Giratina-O should be moved up a bit to B+. While I do support the drop from its initial A- placement, it has a more defined role and has better splashability compared to the rest of B, who are more niche in comparison. Yes, Giratina-O does have issues trying to do too many things at once and not excelling in any, but its ability to blanket check a lot of deadly sweepers + useful immunities/resists + decent offensive pressure alongside Defog is still a valuable package for many teams to use (or at least, more than anyone else in B, and on par with the stuff in B+).
 
658.gif

Greninja from B- to B
I feel like Greninja is a really underrated Pokemon in Ubers. I use it as an Offensive Spike Setter to good success. It has very good speed and can usually set up a couple layers of Spikes before death. If Spikes are not an option, it can always deal heavy damage with Hydro Pump or shut down opposing leads with Taunt. Overall, I think Greninja is just as good as the Pokemon in B, so it should move up.

Define "outclassed."

Ditto's role is unique which no other Pokemon shares, in that it's basically able to revenge kill anything. It's a massive pain to Hyper Offense. You might get locked into a move but chances are it won't matter at that point since 1) You've already revenge killed the threat you needed to. 2) The move you're locked into is really powerful and can sweep the opp's team (think Xerneas's +2 Moonblast or +1 Mence, +2 Ekiller etc).

"the opponent can switch in to a Pokemon that could care less about an Earthquake or an Aerilate Return and begin to set up."

Setting up isn't the best thing to do when Ditto's around. It may give free set up when it's locked into the wrong move, but why can't it just switch out and switch back in to revenge the setting up Pokemon? It's horrible against Balance or Stall but that's why it's C-, which is low enough. Unranked would mean it has no niche, but Ditto does have a small niche of its own to justify a rank.

EDIT: Thank you for clarifying. I was just confused as Ditto is normally a pretty bad Pokemon.
 
Giratina-A C+->C- or D

Giratina has an extremely hard time functioning in this metagame, if it can even function at all, simply because it only has a defensive presence against a few mons and is a free switch to many of the more common threats. It wiffs extra hard vs Stall, Magic Bounce balance, and Offense because it cannot touch Mega Sableye or Mega Diancie with Diancie actually beating Giratina and Sableye creating a weird stalemate. Stall appreciates Mega Sableye much more than it does Giratina-A as Sab actually has a bunch of utility to offer in place of Gira-A's titanic bulk, Pressure, and lack of utility. Giratina just doesn't do anything is its problem. Although its bulk and Pressure sorta keep it from being entirely outclassed, it is still rather close to being unusable.

Arceus-Fighting C-->C

Unlike Giratina, this thing actually does have a use and I have found two builds it works on so far. Stopping Arceus-Rock from spamming Judgment against sand based Bird Spam teams is pretty big when the mon also soft checks E-killer, paralyzes many of its offensive switch-ins that hate paralysis, and has a decently powerful Judgment and Ice Beam to work with considering it is one of the few Arceus formes that can actually run maximum Special Attack. It basically does nothing against stall which is a bummer since it doesn't even beat Blissey, but against variants of Ferrothorn stall it can at least attempt to break Lugia's Multiscale in order to force a Roost and give a free switch to a partner. Its ability to paralyze Latias and Latios as well as 2HKO 248 / 204 (no boosting nature) Primal Groudon after Stealth Rock is also great for a Primal Kyogre partner as quite a few team structures use Groudon as the Kyogre checks, and the eon as a pivot in order to set up Harsh Sunlight against Kyogre. Now, this thing probably should not rise above C + because it is still a rather mediocre Arceus forme for many obvious reasons, but I do feel like it is better than what is currently in C- at least. Perhaps a C+ nom would be feasible because of where Arceus-Ice, -Elec, -Grass, and -Poison are placed? I feel like I am being too lenient with just C because it is better than Lucario, Chansey, and Kyogre. C is a good starting place at any rate.
 
How viable is Landorus-Incarnate? It was just forced out of OU. In this new Primal groudon meta, I feel like C- is a good starting place, but I'm not sure. I'll run some calcs as soon as I get home.
 
How viable is Landorus-Incarnate? It was just forced out of OU. In this new Primal groudon meta, I feel like C- is a good starting place, but I'm not sure. I'll run some calcs as soon as I get home.
For a grammar terrorist, your grammar sucks.

When you're making posts, I would say that you don't do "I'll do x when I get to x," but just wait until you're at "x" instead.

However, believe that D would be a good place to start because it was just Uber-bound and we have no idea how it works.

:)
 
658.gif

Greninja from B- to B
I feel like Greninja is a really underrated Pokemon in Ubers. I use it as an Offensive Spike Setter to good success. It has very good speed and can usually set up a couple layers of Spikes before death. If Spikes are not an option, it can always deal heavy damage with Hydro Pump or shut down opposing leads with Taunt. Overall, I think Greninja is just as good as the Pokemon in B, so it should move up.



EDIT: Thank you for clarifying. I was just confused as Ditto is normally a pretty bad Pokemon.

I'm really not sure about this one. The only thing that Greninja does that Deoxys-Attack doesn't do better is set up Toxic Spikes and I'm not sure if most teams really need an offensive Toxic Spikes user in place of, say, Forretress, who can use Rapid Spin and Explosion to block hazard removal for one turn. For regular Spikes, Deoxys-Attack hits hard, has better Speed, and has access to Taunt just like Greninja so I don't see why you'd use this Pokemon over Deoxys-Attack for this role except for playing games with Protean. I'd say that B- is perfect for Greninja and I don't see the need to move it anywhere.

Giratina-A C+->C- or D

Giratina has an extremely hard time functioning in this metagame, if it can even function at all, simply because it only has a defensive presence against a few mons and is a free switch to many of the more common threats. It wiffs extra hard vs Stall, Magic Bounce balance, and Offense because it cannot touch Mega Sableye or Mega Diancie with Diancie actually beating Giratina and Sableye creating a weird stalemate. Stall appreciates Mega Sableye much more than it does Giratina-A as Sab actually has a bunch of utility to offer in place of Gira-A's titanic bulk, Pressure, and lack of utility. Giratina just doesn't do anything is its problem. Although its bulk and Pressure sorta keep it from being entirely outclassed, it is still rather close to being unusable.

Arceus-Fighting C-->C

Unlike Giratina, this thing actually does have a use and I have found two builds it works on so far. Stopping Arceus-Rock from spamming Judgment against sand based Bird Spam teams is pretty big when the mon also soft checks E-killer, paralyzes many of its offensive switch-ins that hate paralysis, and has a decently powerful Judgment and Ice Beam to work with considering it is one of the few Arceus formes that can actually run maximum Special Attack. It basically does nothing against stall which is a bummer since it doesn't even beat Blissey, but against variants of Ferrothorn stall it can at least attempt to break Lugia's Multiscale in order to force a Roost and give a free switch to a partner. Its ability to paralyze Latias and Latios as well as 2HKO 248 / 204 (no boosting nature) Primal Groudon after Stealth Rock is also great for a Primal Kyogre partner as quite a few team structures use Groudon as the Kyogre checks, and the eon as a pivot in order to set up Harsh Sunlight against Kyogre. Now, this thing probably should not rise above C + because it is still a rather mediocre Arceus forme for many obvious reasons, but I do feel like it is better than what is currently in C- at least. Perhaps a C+ nom would be feasible because of where Arceus-Ice, -Elec, -Grass, and -Poison are placed? I feel like I am being too lenient with just C because it is better than Lucario, Chansey, and Kyogre. C is a good starting place at any rate.

Seconding the Giratina drop. This Pokemon literally sits on the field and looks pretty due to it needing Rest, Sleep Talk, and Will-O-Wisp on the same set. It's huge bait for Xerneas, Darkrai, Primal Groudon, Refresh Mega Salamence, etc. and it quickly becomes too pressured to Rest and is an unreliable phaser.

Arceus-Fighting moving up is an interesting idea. I'd like to see it in C because it does have some utility, resists Stealth Rock, beats Arceus-Dark and Darkrai, and works on certain builds. I could also see it moving up to C+ since it seems to have about as large of a niche as the C+ Arceus formes like you said.


I know it's been said before, but Mega Gengar should move up: A --> A+

1. Mega Gengar has three really solid sets so it is very versatile and each set is really customisable so that you can patch up weaknesses to your team and give the other members opportunities to set-up. For example, a fast Taunt is really good right now like it has always been due to how set-up heavy Ubers has always been and it takes a ton of pressure off of team mates against HO, Disable ruins Ho-oh (a Pokemon that many teams struggle against), and Substitute and Hypnosis variants are incredibly scary to face if Hypnosis hits since it 2HKOs a lot of the meta game, forcing your opponent to sacrifice a Pokemon or two to break the Substitute.

2. Mega Gengar is also the best Pokemon in Ubers for patching up a team's match-up weakness. Weak to Stall or bulkier Balance builds? Perish Trap/SubHypno destroys those. HO got you pressured? Offensive Mega Gengar variants can relieve so much pressure on your team mates against stuff like Darkrai and Extreme Killer.

3. Perish Trap variants avoid pursuit trappers such as Tyranitar, the biggest bane to most sets meaning that it can beat its usual checks while retaining utility.

4. Mega Gengar beats every Arceus forme (though some do need to be taken down with prediction). Many Arceus formes on balance glue those together, so losing it early can be devastating!

5. Mega Gengar does not need much supporting. He largely does his job solo, making him easy to fit on many teams.

Obviously Mega Gengar isn't the perfect Pokemon because it prevents you from using Mega Salamence and can force trades against Offence. These are both true, but Mega Gengar fulfils such a different role than any Mega Salamence set does that there are a variety of teams that would be better with Mega Gengar than with Mega Salamence so the opportunity cost, while something to thoughtfully consider, is not as pronounced as some people like to think. Concerning him forcing trades, you get to choose the trade that you force with Destiny Bond, giving you the advantage. Paired with dangerous threats such as Extreme Killer, Arceus-Ghost, Rock Polish Primal Groudon, etc. can mean that one key Pokemon KOed on the opponent's team can mean that the game is over.

Overall, I think that Mega Gengar's utility, versatility, and ability granting it a very different niche from Mega Salamence's warrant a spot on A+.
 
Last edited:
Yveltal = B+: Yveltal has been facing difficulties keeping up in this metagame. I really haven't been playing around this mon extensively ever since ORAS came out. Sure, it does check a lot of things but it's weakness to SR and burn makes it really prone to being worn down. Like half of the stuff people try to switch it in to it just loses a chunk of HP or just gets slowly worn down until its capable of being KOed.

It needs to spam roost to stay healthy which can often give free turns, and that really holds it back. Yveltal's effectiveness in this metagame should be judged on how well it can keep momentum. The thing is, yveltal is such a mon that it never gets spotlight time anymore.

Honestly, yveltal should stay in B+. While looking at it's offensive sets, It does not compare to the power of dialga and deo-A and it's versatility is nowhere near as threatening as theirs. But yeah, yveltal is splashable but that doesn't make it A- rank. The only way I see this moving up is if both primal-groudon and mega-salamence get banned. And that's not happening.
 
Yveltal = B+: Yveltal has been facing difficulties keeping up in this metagame. I really haven't been playing around this mon extensively ever since ORAS came out. Sure, it does check a lot of things but it's weakness to SR and burn makes it really prone to being worn down. Like half of the stuff people try to switch it in to it just loses a chunk of HP or just gets slowly worn down until its capable of being KOed.

It needs to spam roost to stay healthy which can often give free turns, and that really holds it back. Yveltal's effectiveness in this metagame should be judged on how well it can keep momentum. The thing is, yveltal is such a mon that it never gets spotlight time anymore.

Honestly, yveltal should stay in B+. While looking at it's offensive sets, It does not compare to the power of dialga and deo-A and it's versatility is nowhere near as threatening as theirs. But yeah, yveltal is splashable but that doesn't make it A- rank. The only way I see this moving up is if both primal-groudon and mega-salamence get banned. And that's not happening.

Yveltal is currently A- Rank right now, I'm guessing you're suggesting a drop from that rank to B+? No one has suggested Yveltal to move up from its current rank, it's currently situated at A-, so I'll take it you mean you want it to drop a subrank or so?

I'm not quite sure about Yveltal dropping though, (though I can see why it would be possible). Its Dark Aura STAB Sucker Punch is pretty useful to OHKO Latis and Mewtwo, and in general its bulk and typing are really useful. It's good at checking things like Ghostceus, Mega Salamence, E-Killer, and Mega Gengar to an extent as well with a defensive set, and Foul Play is really good to use especially Dark Aura boosted. Taunt is also a decently useful move to stop Dialga and P-Don from setting up Rocks and Yvel does that nicely. The offensive set may not have the most raw power but Dark Pulse is strong coming off of Yvel and Oblivion Wing is occasionally neat too because it allows Yveltal to heal itself off and it can do good damage to Xerneas. In general it has pretty good utility both defensively and offensively and it's a decent teammate for things like Xerneas. I know it used to be an A+ mon and it's not as good as it was anymore but it's still pretty decent, and I think it's fine in A- for now but I could see a drop to B+ since admittedly its SR weakness and it being bait for Xerneas does hurt it.
 
Yveltal should stay in A-. It's solid offensively and defensively and has a very strong priority and good movepool. It can't drop below A- looking at how it's way better than B+ mons and how good it is at doing it's job in general.
Unlike deo A it can actually be a defensive mon that resists ground and checks tons of offensive threats so yeah it wouldn't be good if it drops down. Noway below A- It's a good pokemon.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top