Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread!

[tazz]

I know this already happened and I know that people overwhelmingly said no but I think that in light of Kopaka essentially perfecting LC baton pass to the point where it wins tournament games really makes full baton pass deserving of an examination: Tahu has edited it to the point that the only pokemon it auto loses to anymore is lead LO gastly. every other pokemon that supposedly beat it now only check it: cottonee by hp poison gothita, phasers by taunt foo and gothita, etc. Even if baton pass isn't broken, it is undeniably toxic. My question from the last suspect discussion still stands: if we can make the metagame better by banning something, why wouldn't we?

also diglett deserves an examination

 

[absdaddy]

Stay away from dig imo, it's just a good mon in current meta because of how said meta looks like(same goes for other trappers, even Wynaut I use often recently)
Anyway, i just wanted to point out that people really underprepare for most basic spikes+trappers+multiple sweepers HO kind of teams so they're really effective now, it's really easy to force your opp to lose a keymon that stops one of your mons just to sweep with another that shares list of checks with the first one(dual fighters cores)

hyper offense is starting to shine again and i like it, metagame staleness allows you to gain massive advantage simply by bringing lotta overwhelming stuff or nichey mons people forgot about

 

[Cheryl.]

I don't think Diglett is suspectable. Everything seems balanced right now, nothing seems overly broken.

 

[mad0ka]

I don't usually have issues with Diglett because of the way I tend to teambuild, but when I was building with blarajan today I realized just how restrictive Diglett is on teambuilding. We were punished for trying to check the meta in different ways than standard, all because of one lil bitch mon. I don't think Diglett is necessarily "OP" (haha get it because OP abuses Diglett xd) but I do believe it has a negative influence on the meta.

 

[Berks]

I don't usually have issues with Diglett because of the way I tend to teambuild, but when I was building with blarajan today I realized just how restrictive Diglett is on teambuilding. We were punished for trying to check the meta in different ways than standard, all because of one lil bitch mon. I don't think Diglett is necessarily "OP" (haha get it because OP abuses Diglett xd) but I do believe it has a negative influence on the meta.

Not that I don't agree with this, but I really would like to know a couple of examples of mind or moves you couldn't run for fear of Diglett

 

[tcr]

Things that are Ground-weak and that cannot touch Diglett are simply liabilities in this metagame. Skrelp can be cool to check a lot of Fighting-types, and counter Ponyta, but that's all null if they have Diglett, bc you don't want to bring it in on a double. Ponyta itself is a liability, bc it can be hit extremely hard by LO Diglett (all it takes is one Mienfoo U-turn). Oh you also can't use Ponyta as your CM Spritzee check, bc Diglett. Larvesta becomes a one time switchin to Mienfoo bc Diglett. Chinchou can't reliably switch into Fletchling bc Diglett. Omanyte can't reliably switch into Fletchling bc Diglett. Pokemon that would normally check or counter other threats are simply defeated by Diglett, and with the amount of Voltturn in this meta it really isn't that hard to get Diglett in. Not to mention that Sash sets can have even more utility in that they actually CAN directly switch in to threats. mad0ka is right in that Diglett isn't necessarily broken, but is unhealthy. Similar to how Yanma was banned not because it itself was broken, but its U-turn+Hypnosis sets were toxic as fuck and unfun to play against.

 

[Heysup]

1) Double switching is outplaying an opponent. The same way using Overheat on the switch of Pawniard/Mag into Fletchling doesn't mean that Pawniard/Mag are invalid to use.
2) Skrelp, Larvesta, and Ponyta are still amazing. If you're dumb enough to KO something with Larvesta or Ponyta and leave them in (particularly the former which has U-turn), then you're a bad player or built poorly (or made a good play that was worth it).
3) If you can't abuse the fuck out of Diglett's 15 attack single stab w/ immunity on the turn after it revenge kills something then once again, you are a bad player or built poorly.
4) don't talk compare Yanma and Diglett. Yanma was broken.

Seriously, Gothita is better and I can't beleive this is a conversation.

 

[Cheryl.]

How is Gothita better gthan diglett? It can't take a hit for it's life and can't kill anything that's not weak to it. It also needs a Scarf to outspeed things, while diglett can use another item since it's fast already.

 

[Heysup]

What gets trapped by (LO) Diglett vs what gets trapped by Gothita. Diglett = D. Gothita = G. Neither = N. Prediction required = ~. Knock Off / Hazards: *.

pow

- G*

- ~D

- G, D (unless sash, no beat up, etc).

- G*

- G

- G

- G, D.

- D*

- N

- N (Goth can trick)

- G*. D.

- G.

- G.

- N (can switch out)

- N

- G.

- D.

- N.

- G, D (if run stupid moves like Sludge Bomb / HP Poison)

- G.

- ~D

- G (can run HP rock but shouldnt) , D

- G, D.

- N

- N

- G*

- D, G.

- G.

- N

- G (unless sun w/ LO, sucker punch)

- N

- G*.

- G, D.

- N

- N

- G*

- N

- G*

- N

- G, D.

- G.

- G, D. (need hazard)

- G*

- N. I guess G (with stupid HP Fairie probably i dunno)

- ~D

- G.

- G.

- N

- N

- G (HP fight)

- G

- D

- N (but trick)

- N

- G

- G

Total: G - 31, not including ones like HP Rock or Faerie. D - 16.

Even if someone was going to complain about bias or whatever, that's almost double the traps so I don't think any other explanation is required. Also before I hear shit like "Hidden Power is only one type" we are talking about restricting team building so it can use any of the reasonable ones.

Diglett doesn't get locked in but it sure as shit can't do anything legitimate to a counter with Rock Slide.

 

[mad0ka]

2) is what bothers me. Literally all it takes is one u-turn from a Mienfoo and those mons are as good as gone. Also Diglett traps a lot more shit, it's called having them a bit weakened

 

[Berks]

2) is what bothers me. Literally all it takes is one u-turn from a Mienfoo and those mons are as good as gone. Also Diglett traps a lot more shit, it's called having them a bit weakened

To be fair, weaken any Mon enough and either trapper takes them out

 

[RZL]

Heysup, I would like to inform you HP Fairy does not exist.

I often find that without Knock Off support Gothita fails to effectively trap and KO, Fighting-types, which is one of the reasons I would use it over Diglett, that and its ability to cripple Defensive Pokemon like Ferroseed and Spritzee. Gothita is also not immune to anything, so it cannot outright make a good move, such as Volt Switch, unusable throughout the duration of its life. Being weak to pursuit is not necessarily good for it. Diglett is a much bigger risk for a much higher reward.

Gothita pretty much needs 4x super effective coverage to KO the opponent.

With a Modest Scarf set on Gothita, Gothita can revenge kill, Barboach, Binacle, Bellsprout, Non-Eviolite Corphish, Bulbasaur, Croagunk, Diglett, Doduo, Ekans (75% Chance), Non-Eviolite Drilbur, Mixed Attacking Fletchling (Minus SpD), Froakie, Gastly, Geodude, Kabuto, Krabby, Larvitar, Machop, Mankey, Rain Dance Mantyke, All-formes of Non-Eviolite Mienfoo, Omanyte, Onix, Poliwag, Rhyhorn, Spinarak, Taillow, Starly, Wooper, Natu, Staryu, Drifloon, and Zubat. Carvanha

Okay, now, let's eliminate stupidity!!! Red will be Eliminated!!!

Bellsprout outspeeds undersun.
Machop runs Scarf itself so it would be a speed tie.
>Trying to Trap Lordvanha

Doduo, Corphish, Diglett, Spinarak, Taillow, and Driftloon deal heavy damage with priority or have an ability that would allow them to outspeed. Croagunk has Sucker Punch, but I rarely use it. Onix needs hazard support. Even if you add HP Fight, all you get is Non-Eviolite Pawniard, and Amaura.

Now Jolly Diglett, Magnemite, Houndour, Aron, Elekid, Blitzel, Magby, Vulpix, Helioptile, Charmander, Croagunk, Shieldon, Tentacool, Chinchou, Abra (LO ;-; Sashbra), Darumaka, Litleo, Pawniard, Smoochum, Gastly, Trubbish, Diglett, Amaura, Starly, Taillow, Larvesta, Surskit, Geodude, Tyrunt, Poochyena, Remoraid, Binacle, Tirtouga, Non-Eviolite Mienfoo...so on and so forth, about the same amout, as Gothita.

The important thing is what they trap, not how much.

Vulpix, Chinchou, Ponyta and Skrelp, also both beat Mienfoo at least 50% of the time if Mienfoo has no investment in defense and does not have Eviolite. Although, Gothita has the KO Guaranteed whereas Diglett has 58% chance. Gothita beats a lot of random stuff, and walls more consistently, but Diglett beats Vulpix and Chinchou which are vital Pokemon on sun and VoltTurn teams respectively.

 

[Heysup]

2) is what bothers me. Literally all it takes is one u-turn from a Mienfoo and those mons are as good as gone. Also Diglett traps a lot more shit, it's called having them a bit weakened

U-turning is a correct prediction. If you don't U-turn, you are in a shitty situation. If you U-turn and they send in something else, you are still in a shitty situation. Plus there's the possibility of the Flame Body burns from either of them.

H&MBerkeley already mostly addressed the "weaken the shit" argument but I'll add that Gothita has an easier time trapping more weakened mons.

I said it for advance and I'll say it here. If Diglett was really that hard to deal with, people would use more creative sets to deal with it like Balloon or fucking sub/endure Salac. If it's not worth losing Eviolite over it's not worth suspecting plain and simple. I want to see someone actually try and deal with something then just complain about it.

Heysup, I would like to inform you HP Fairy does not exist.

I often find that without Knock Off support Gothita fails to effectively trap and KO, Fighting-types, which is one of the reasons I would use it over Diglett, that and its ability to cripple Defensive Pokemon like Ferroseed and Spritzee. Gothita is also not immune to anything, so it cannot outright make a good move, such as Volt Switch, unusable throughout the duration of its life. Being weak to pursuit is not necessarily good for it. Diglett is a much bigger risk for a much higher reward.

Gothita pretty much needs 4x super effective coverage to KO the opponent.

With a Modest Scarf set on Gothita, Gothita can revenge kill, Barboach, Binacle, Bellsprout, Non-Eviolite Corphish, Bulbasaur, Croagunk, Diglett, Doduo, Ekans (75% Chance), Non-Eviolite Drilbur, Mixed Attacking Fletchling (Minus SpD), Froakie, Gastly, Geodude, Kabuto, Krabby, Larvitar, Machop, Mankey, Rain Dance Mantyke, All-formes of Non-Eviolite Mienfoo, Omanyte, Onix, Poliwag, Rhyhorn, Spinarak, Taillow, Starly, Wooper, Natu, Staryu, Drifloon, and Zubat. Carvanha

Okay, now, let's eliminate stupidity!!! Red will be Eliminated!!!

Bellsprout outspeeds undersun.
Machop runs Scarf itself so it would be a speed tie.
>Trying to Trap Lordvanha

Doduo, Corphish, Diglett, Spinarak, Taillow, and Driftloon deal heavy damage with priority or have an ability that would allow them to outspeed. Croagunk has Sucker Punch, but I rarely use it. Onix needs hazard support. Even if you add HP Fight, all you get is Non-Eviolite Pawniard, and Amaura.

Now Jolly Diglett, Magnemite, Houndour, Aron, Elekid, Blitzel, Magby, Vulpix, Helioptile, Charmander, Croagunk, Shieldon, Tentacool, Chinchou, Abra (LO ;-; Sashbra), Darumaka, Litleo, Pawniard, Smoochum, Gastly, Trubbish, Diglett, Amaura, Starly, Taillow, Larvesta, Surskit, Geodude, Tyrunt, Poochyena, Remoraid, Binacle, Tirtouga, Non-Eviolite Mienfoo...so on and so forth, about the same amout, as Gothita.

The important thing is what they trap, not how much.

Vulpix, Chinchou, Ponyta and Skrelp, also both beat Mienfoo at least 50% of the time if Mienfoo has no investment in defense and does not have Eviolite. Although, Gothita has the KO Guaranteed whereas Diglett has 58% chance. Gothita beats a lot of random stuff, and walls more consistently, but Diglett beats Vulpix and Chinchou which are vital Pokemon on sun and VoltTurn teams respectively.

I can't quite understand what you're trying to say but Fighting-types are basically the most important thing to remove in general because they are basically on every team. Even with Fletchling, Gothita can trap Archen while Diglett can't. Fletchling has an easier time with Honedge and Pawniard than it does with Archen.

 

[mad0ka]

The difference between ADV lc Diglett was that its only truly viable item was choice band, meaning it was easy as hell to abuse. LO? Nah not so much. That's also why Goth is in my opinion different from Diglett and not broken; easy to manipulate depending on what it's locked in on. Also I believe you're also overestimating Goth's strength in this. Gothita is weaker than LO dig. Just saying. And lastly your reasoning for fighters being the most important thing to remove makes NEGATIVE sense. How does something being the most common thing correlate to needing to be removed??

 

[Rowan]

I would join in on this discussion but not on pc atm and I hate typing on a phone. Just try and keep it civil, staying stuff like stop drinking + posting isn't exactly conducive to good discussion. At the end of the day it isn't entirely objective

 

[Heysup]

The difference between ADV lc Diglett was that its only truly viable item was choice band, meaning it was easy as hell to abuse. LO? Nah not so much. That's also why Goth is in my opinion different from Diglett and not broken; easy to manipulate depending on what it's locked in on. Also I believe you're also overestimating Goth's strength in this. Gothita is weaker than LO dig. Just saying. And lastly your reasoning for fighters being the most important thing to remove makes NEGATIVE sense. How does something being the most common thing correlate to needing to be removed??

1) they are amazing general checks for lots of the metagame so they are obviously valuable which is a judgment I'm making based on the fact that they are basically needed and used on almost every team.

2) I dont know how to word this without sounding condescending but I think it is just plain common sense that something so valuable that almost every team uses it being removed is a huge deal.

Goth is weaker but has a better movepool which matters more in LC especially for trapping (see the nearly double the traps it gets). You can set up on either of them.

I think the Gothita versus Diglett discussion is much more useful than a Diglett suspect discussion which shouldnt be happening.

 

[RZL]

I can't quite understand what you're trying to say but Fighting-types are basically the most important thing to remove in general because they are basically on every team. Even with Fletchling, Gothita can trap Archen while Diglett can't. Fletchling has an easier time with Honedge and Pawniard than it does with Archen.

Um, Archen is really the only thing Gothita traps without Knock Off or Hazard support, they both trap and KO the same Fighters with no support.

Honestly, if your team desperately needs to remove Fighters it most likely needs to be reconsidered, but Gothita needs a crap tonne more support than Diglett. They actually KO about the same amount, you are underestimating Diglett's power, while you overestimate Gothita's. It fails to OHKO Timburr one of the more prevalent Fighters as well as Eviolite Foo. Honestly, Croagunk could run a physical set with Sucker Punch and after Stealth Rock would KO 188+ Atk Croagunk Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gothita: 18-22 (85.7 - 104.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. You're also forgetting Diglett has memento, and its job that game might be to Memento and then that's it.

 

[Heysup]

Um, Archen is really the only thing Gothita traps without Knock Off or Hazard support, they both trap and KO the same Fighters with no support.

Honestly, if your team desperately needs to remove Fighters it most likely needs to be reconsidered, but Gothita needs a crap tonne more support than Diglett. They actually KO about the same amount, you are underestimating Diglett's power, while you overestimate Gothita's. It fails to OHKO Timburr one of the more prevalent Fighters as well as Eviolite Foo.

You could not be more wrong.

Without Knock Off:

236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 76 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

Basically guaranteed after a U-turn or any residual damage. Mienfoo doesn't usually even need it. 81.3% are odds I'd take any day.

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

Not even a 2HKO after Drain Punch.

After Knock Off:

236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 76 HP / 156 SpD Timburr: 26-32 (104 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 32)

236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Mienfoo: 26-32 (123.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 32)

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 76+ Def Timburr: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

Diglett has no place trapping Fighting-types.


On top of that, "desperately needing" to remove Fighters, first of all, is not that uncommon. They are excellent checks, but it suffices to run a U-turn to Gothita as a "counter" instead of a hard switch-in like Spritzee. Second of all, don't understate it by saying it's not something teams immensely benefit from. Lots of prevelant sweepers benefit from bulky Fighters being removed (like Pawniard, Carvahna, Scraggy, Omanyte, etc) and lots of bulky mons wall almost everything EXCEPT those mons (ie. Porygon, Lileep, etc).

Psychic, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Hidden Power, more inclusive ability (Flying-types) and the ability to take a hit make Gothita a far superior trapper than Diglett.

 

[Berks]

I definitely agree with you on all of this Heysup but there is one crucial flaw present with using Gothita over Diglett that you may be overlooking: Gothita is infinitely more likely to become setup bait. Not only does Diglett have the ability to switch moves, preventing a setup Mon from abusing any immunity, it also has access to priority Sucker Punch and has access to Memento. Diglett is almost never setup bait for these reasons.

On the other hand, Gothita can almost always become setup bait. In most if not all cases, Gothita needs to run a Choice Scarf to successfully trap all of the Pokemon you mentioned without sustaining major damage. However, after removing a trouble Pokemon, Gothita becomes locked into a move, allowing another opposing Pokemon to come in and start causing trouble. You can bring up the fact Gothita has access to Trick, but it is unable to use this after KOing an opposing mon.

This is where the whole "Goth needs more support" argument comes into play. You need extremely reliable answers to opposing set up mons on your team when you run Scarf Gothita. This entails stops to Pokemon like Pawniard, Scraggy, and Snivy, all of whom can come into a Choice-locked Psychic or Tbolt and proceed to wreak havoc.

Despite this, the team support argument works both ways. Which trapper is generally better for supporting a team? My answer would be Goth, for the following reasons: it has more specific coverage, is generally better in this specific meta, and is able to trap more specific threats for a wider variety of Pokemon. Now, Diglett, in my mind, is a better partner for a few mons, like Ziggy and Fletch, due to its ability to take on Steel-types. However, Gothita is a better partner for Pokemon such as Pawniard and Larvesta, as it can take on things like Fighting-types and Chinchous. This is also where Heysup's trap list comes into play. Gothita, thanks to its wider coverage and flexibility, can effectively trap and remove more mons than Diglett can. This includes utilizing moves such as HP Fire in order to trap Ferroseed, helping to facilitate, say, a Corphish sweep. It is a lot more flexible and specific than stuff like EQ / Rock Slide / Sucker or Sludge Bomb (I'm not even gonna talk about Beat Up.)

E: I believe Goth is more effective in this meta in general because it both can take on the ever-so-common fighting types and is a special attacker in a generally physically oriented metagame. If I need to expand more on this in particular, I will

That's my two cents on this whole idea. In my opinion, neither is truly worthy of a suspect, as both have inherent flaws that prevent their presence from being too much for the tier. However, I definitely think that if either of them do get a suspect, we should either suspect both at the same time, or just suspect Goth.

 

[Celestavian]

You could not be more wrong.

Without Knock Off:

236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-24 (85.7 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 76 HP / 156 SpD Eviolite Timburr: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

Basically guaranteed after a U-turn or any residual damage. Mienfoo doesn't usually even need it. 81.3% are odds I'd take any day.

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

Not even a 2HKO after Drain Punch.

After Knock Off:

236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 76 HP / 156 SpD Timburr: 26-32 (104 - 128%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 32)

236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Mienfoo: 26-32 (123.8 - 152.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 30, 32)

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 76 HP / 76+ Def Timburr: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

Diglett has no place trapping Fighting-types.


On top of that, "desperately needing" to remove Fighters, first of all, is not that uncommon. They are excellent checks, but it suffices to run a U-turn to Gothita as a "counter" instead of a hard switch-in like Spritzee. Second of all, don't understate it by saying it's not something teams immensely benefit from. Lots of prevelant sweepers benefit from bulky Fighters being removed (like Pawniard, Carvahna, Scraggy, Omanyte, etc) and lots of bulky mons wall almost everything EXCEPT those mons (ie. Porygon, Lileep, etc).

Psychic, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Hidden Power, more inclusive ability (Flying-types) and the ability to take a hit make Gothita a far superior trapper than Diglett.

First things first: That Timburr spread you've got there from the damage calculator gave me an aneurysm. Here's a calculation for you using the proper spread from its on-site analysis:

252+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 14-20 (58.3 - 83.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20)

Without Knock Off support, Gothita does 18 HP most of the time, requiring you to do 6 HP of damage (or use Knock Off, which then makes Modest Psychic always OHKO Timburr regardless of HP) before Gothita can reliably take it out.

Next, when did anyone ever say that Diglett can trap Fighting-types? The only one it can trap is Croagunk, and anyone who says otherwise is either talking about heavily weakened Fighting-types or is an idiot. RZL's post says, verbatim: "they both trap and KO the same Fighters with no support." And he's right, they can both, with no outside support, trap and KO one Fighting-type: Croagunk. Without SR, Mienfoo goes down to a 6% chance to KO at full HP while it can Knock Off for the KO 56% of the time. If it doesn't KO, its Scarf is gone and then Mienfoo is faster so it doesn't matter. Also, Specially Defensive Mienfoo is a set I have seen and lost to many a time, taking even Abra's Psychic and U-turning out; it is very much viable and possible to be ran, so you can't assume even after SR that Gothita will be able to KO it. I don't know its exact spread so I don't have a calc for you, but I've seen it used and think it can be a very effective lure for Abra and Gothita. Continuing on, Gothita, as I've shown, can't KO Timburr unless you are a scrub and running the set from the damage calculator. As for Scraggy, Gothita doesn't carry Dazzling Gleam according to the on-site analysis (Using CTRL-F on the word "Dazzling" yields 0 results, so it's not even mentioned) so Gothita can't even touch it. Every other Fighting-type out there is pretty much irrelevant to the metagame as it is now so I won't go into them much. You assume SR is up, despite RZL specifically stating there is no outside support available. And no, the old argument of "It's OK to assume SR is up because everyone uses it" doesn't count. How then is RZL's statement wrong?

It would be more correct to say that Gothita has an easier time getting rid of Fighting-types than Diglett, and that is a great niche. But in order to do so, it absolutely requires support to make up for the fact that it is weak for an offensive Pokemon, and the fact that after KOing its mark, it is at the complete mercy of whatever switches in.

 

[Holiday]

It would be correct to say that Gothita has an easier time getting rid of Fighting-types, and that is a great niche. But in order to do so, it absolutely requires support to make up for the fact that it is weak for an offensive Pokemon, and the fact that after KOing its mark, it is at the complete mercy of whatever switches in.

I'd really like to stress this part. I get that EdgeQuake coverage + Sucker Punch for Diglett isn't the greatest, but at the very least it can usually do something that doesn't make the turn after it RKs a mon pointless, be it by chipping more with an EQ or Sucker, memento'ing a mon, getting a sub up ETC. Depending on what Goth locks itself into, it leaves itself at the mercy of many attackers, which is expected of many choice users (Mag uses Cannon, Chou gets in etc) Diglett never has to worry about that because of it's great speed and decent attack coupled with priority and some good support moves.

 

[Heysup]

Even for me this is enough word-twisting to put up with. Let's just look at the facts as both sides have presented.

Diglett and Gothita are both weak and fairly easy to set up on or force a switch (from a dangerous Pokemon). They also both pick off most weakened Pokemon (like around ~40% HP).

Diglett is harder to set up on because of Memento and ability to switch moves (albeit still being weak). It is also immune to electric so it discourages that move.

Gothita is locked into a move so it is fairly easy to set up on. Gothita, however, traps more Pokemon (ie. Flying-types), KOes more Pokemon because of its movepool, can actually cripple bulky mons with Trick, and can actually take a hit from mons like Staryu, Tirtouga, and Foongus, and even weak U-turns or Knock Offs (even Fletchling acrobatics). Gothita can also pick off Mienfoo and Timburr with barely any residual damage or Knock Off.

So no, the argument that Diglett is better than Gothita is not being made successfully. Logic would dictate that the "suspecting Diglett" discussion should be tabled until the argument can be made that Diglett is particularly better than Gothita or that are both broken. It's clear that Diglett has some benefits over Gothita. It's also clear that in terms of sheer trapping and KOing, Gothita traps way more Pokemon with far less support.

Simply asking people to "try" and prepare is too much I guess.

 

[mad0ka]

kk. Yes, Gothita can trap more Pokemon, but the statement that she does it with far less support is just incorrect. The main reason that Diglett in my opinion is better than Gothita is because of how nicely it pairs with its teammates. The things that Diglett traps, things like electric or fire types, the types of things that those mons switch into can just pivot into Diglett relatively safely. Yes, it's been established that Goth can trap more Pokemon, but she does it at the expense of momentum and team synergy. Gothita pairs "nicely" with smashers, since it traps most of Omanyte's/Tirtouga's checks. But, it's a lot harder for Gothita to pivot into play seeing as its teammates have no way of supporting her with U-Turn or anything. Diglett requires less support in general but, however, GETS that support and more from its teammates, while Gothita requires more support in general but her teammates fail to give that to her.

 

[Rowan]

Diglett can clean weakened teams that's a big difference between the two - gothita can trap a lot, but it can't clean anything because it can't switch moves - has anyone ever seen goth late game clean? lots have seen diglett late game clean though.

relevant pokemon goth can succesfully remove from turn 1 with only SR support set of psychic, thunderbolt, energy ball, hp fire

mienfoo
archen (but can get weakened a lot by evio cos it can only 2hkos)
ferroseed (but gets weakened a lot)
omanyte
shellder (68% chance to ohko after rocks)
tirtouga
croagunk
onix
doduo
taillow

and now diglett
pawniard kinda
lo abra
non endure mag
ponyta
chinchou
vulpix
larvesta
omanyte
onix
skrelp
croagunk
dwebble
stunky kinda

ignored a few irrelevant threats, that's kind of opinion, make of that what you will.

i just feel that goth needs a lot more knock off support, particularly for its main targets, fighting types -

another thing, fighting types aren't lured by any u-turn/volt switch users, so goth has a harder time getting in on what is usually wants to trap.

diglett can guarantee certain important kills and pairs better with voltturners such as mienfoo+fletchling+vullaby - you can't just take what they trap in a vacuum, diglett is easier to support by far

 

[Max Carvalho]

Some cents from me;
Diglett is not overpowered, as many pointed out here, cus, for me, mainly due to it having some diffs on forcing out mons after RKing. It's pretty easy to check, and cleaning is basically only an option with strong priority taken out and everything else pretty worned out with that average Atk stat. It requires some form of team support in VoltTurn, being almost impossible to bring in on anything but Electric-type attacks. But, really, bringing in Diglett on an Electric-type attack in this meta is pretty much a great play, due to its main users. I mean mag could either use Flash Cannon while being scarfed, or just Endure if Sturdy is broken (not like dig switch in on not broken SturdyBj Mag), Chinchou has an ok 30% chance on winning if Scalding Sash Dig, and could also be Scarfed. If you get these two guys locked in an Electric-type attack while switching in, gz, you have the upper hand; but, at least in here, this is the same outcome as any successful high risk / high reward play, even if Arena Trap can't be dealt with as long as you are being affected by it. Dig is definitely not op, though we could argue its uncompetitiveness.
On Goth, she has the easiest time switching in on walls, trapping them on a status move, recovery or w.e and proceed to KO them. It also has SE coverage which is great, but in the end, it is weaker than Dig not only due to STAB but for not being able to run LO effectively with average / less than average stats all around. It can't clean with that slow speed (assuming it tricked scarf already), no priority and usually being locked in a move. It truly shines on having lots of coverage options to RK lots of things though, nevertheless. It's even less powered than Diglett though.
It's funny how these guys bring lots of support to its team while requiring support or a sack to come in.
For reference, although we are a metagame totally aside of OU, we could make good use of this definition of uncompetitive.

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Uncompetitive game aspects (or strategies) are those that take away autonomy (control of the game's events), take it out of the hand's of player's decisions-- and do so to a degree that can be considered uncompetitive.

This can be luck-based, but doesn't have to be (see: 4th gen Wobb, who was effective enough then to remove the ability to "do anything about it" largely from the enemy player, and was banned for uncompetitive-ness); but most uncompetitive strategies that are banned usually have a high appeal to luck.

While there is always luck involved in Pokemon, the problem is the degree to which control is taken away from the player. Removal of autonomy is the key to an uncompetitive tiering decision or clause.


Note: the word "degree" as there are many game aspects that remove autonomy, but the problem is degree of removal (Moody / Double Team remove more autonomy than Quick Claw or fast U-Turn/Volt Switch).

Whether the "degree" of autonomy removal is uncompetitive is debatable, and is subjective (based off of player experience).

Note: Individual Pokemon can be banned for a combination of "overpowered" and "uncompetitive" characteristics-- see 4th Gen Deoxys-S and 4th Gen Shaymin-S bans

For the matter of fact, as long as Arena Trap and Shadow Tag is in play, it takes away autonomy from the opponent. Thing is, the two best users of the move have some flaws that may deteur us from LC community to immediately deem their trapping abilities as uncompetitive. I don't think trapping by itself n alone is uncompetitive, it truly deppends on the recipient. See Gen 4 Wobbufet. As such, we should consider several factors if we want to suspect Dig, Goth, or both:

• Determine if they are an overwhelming presence in LC due to being teambuilder restrictors, especially Dig. Are they obligating a battler to use gimmicks to check them?
• Determine if they are making LC any less fun to play.
• Determine how uncompetitive trapping is, always taking into account what the recipients are up for.
• Determine how unheathy they are to the metagame, if they are making variability less of a thing (although this alone isn't enough).
• Overall, determine wether the combination of the Trappers defining presence in the metagame followed by possible uncompetiviness of trapping abilities makes them too much of a bad presence in the metagame.

As far as I've seen, either Diglett or Goth, and trapping in general, aren't the very best tactic that outclasses every other possible tactic in LC; they are pretty far from being the best tactic, you all know this. It doesn't overshadow any other possible option. Basically, the only Pokemon that has been the closest to be a surefire way to win every time, fully outclassing every other option of tactics, and Pokemon that do a similar role was Mega Rayquaza. Trapping and its wielders, as of now, is very far from being as defining and as good as Mega Rayquaza was in Ubers. It's just a pretty legit tactic, strong one, that brings a good amount of support while requiring support from other tactics to be well exploited, followed by maybe good thought in-game and experience.