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Battle Spot Singles Viability Rankings!
- Thread starter Feliburn
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We decided that Garchomp's typing, movepool, stat distribution, ability, number of viable sets and absolute omnipresence in the metagame were enough to rank it among the best in the game. We did not compare it to others in S rank, rather judged on what it does itself and what it brings to the metagame
I think Scizor/Mega Scizor should get ranked, maybe C or C+. Technician Bullet Punch is a hard hitting moves, picking off threats like Mega Gardevoir and Tyranitar, and it also mitigates Scizor's low speed. U-Turn is useful for momentum, and Scizor also has coverage moves like Superpower. Problems with Scizor are poor matchups against top threats like Charizard and Aegislash, which really burns down his usefulness by a lot, but Scizor is a pretty cool mon and deserves to get ranked.
I agree that Scizor should be ranked, but definitely not as low as C. While Scizor does have problems with Fire-type moves and Pokémon, it has an otherwise stellar typing with which to abuse its bulk and either pivot all over the opponent's face or sweep them with an SD set. Swords Dance+Knock Off sets are actually pretty capable of getting around Aegislash with clever play. Speaking generally, Scizor's typing and access to STAB Technician Bullet Punch makes it one of the most reliable Fairy-type checks in the format, and makes it a great switch-in for many frail attackers like Greninja. I'd place it at B+ at the very least, maybe even A-.
I agree that it should be ranked a lot higher. Scizor is very good in Battle Spot along with its Mega Evolution. Scizor has a Bug / Steel typing which leaves it with one weakness against Fire-types, which makes it great and easy to fit on a team and build around. After setting up one Swords Dance, it does have the potential to sweep certain Pokemon depending on your team. Yes, despite the Speed Scizor has, SD Technician STAB Bullet Punch will be hitting much harder than you would expect. As for Aegislash vs Scizor, I don't see it as a real counter to it but a temporary check to it if it isn't running Knock Off. I see much mindgames in trying to setup Swords Dance and using Knock Off while trying to predict a Kings Shield and get a Weakness Policy right off the bat.
Mega Scizor can even run a bulky Roost sweeper with Swords Dance. I will mention Choice Band Scizor is also a scary thing in Singles.
A- Rank.
Mega Scizor can even run a bulky Roost sweeper with Swords Dance. I will mention Choice Band Scizor is also a scary thing in Singles.
A- Rank.
Is Scizor really that good? I honestly can't see it being A rank, B+ at best for me but even that is a bit of a stretch imo, maybe even just B... Of the top 12 most used Pokemon, Scizor hits none super effectively with its STABs, and in return is hit super effectively by three of the top 12 (that's a lot considering his 'stellar defensive typing' only has one weakness), and two others somewhat often carry Fire-type coverage. His STABs are resisted by six of the top 12, meaning sweeping is a little tough. You have to chose which coverage move(s) to run really carefully too, Superpower is the best for hitting the Steel-types that resist its STABs, but that means that Aegislash (also Thundurus) flat out walls you (the most common Steel-type). Running Knock Off can somewhat alleviate this but that means you only have neutral coverage against the other Steel-types... It also means you aren't running Roost which is a cool move in itself. I dunno, his main set (offensive Mega) just really doesn't cut it for me.
Also, remember we have descriptions for each rank guys:
Also, remember we have descriptions for each rank guys:
Scizor just screams B Rank to me when you read those descriptions...
While reading the ranks again, i agree it should be B, even when i first tought it had to be higher. Good idea to stick to these descriptions, cause otherwise we will be creeping and that is one of the reasons why sometimes extra subtiers are necessary, like SS. Scizor is a great pokemon with some flaws so it fits B or even B -.
I'd be happy with B+. Mega Scizor can deal with most of the things it wants to with a set of SD/Roost/Knock Off/Bullet Punch, which allows it to keep itself healthy and slowly boost up against most Pokémon that don't carry a Fire move. Superpower and Bug STAB are best left to Choice Band or non-SD sets imo; as cant say said, the most common Steel-type is Aegislash so Superpower doesn't help against that. Scizor shouldn't be staying in on Heatran anyway, and there are better ways of dealing with Ferrothorn (such as boosting up in its face and slamming it with +6 Knock Off n_n). That said, a couple of the Pokémon in the top 12 are bulky enough to take its hits even at +2 even if they don't appreciate them, notably Mega Salamence which can 2HKO it with Double-Edge, winning if it isn't already boosted. Thundurus can't take boosted Knock Offs, however, and generally doesn't do enough damage backv to significantly threaten Scizor (unless it gets lucky with Swagger as usual).
I think Blaziken should go to S rank. Speed Boost is awesome as always, Swords Dance is great to increase Blaziken's already great attack and perform a sweep. The advantage of using Blaziken over Mega Blaziken is that you can choose another mega for your team. Problems with Blaziken are that it's STABs are resisted by a few pokemon like MegaMence and Azurmarill, but you could run coverage or have teammates that can beat the checks. IMO Blaziken is an awesome pokemon and should go up to S rank.
Nominating Serperior for A.
It's way too low right now imo. The reflect helm set is one of the best offensive checks to mega kan(and other physical attackers like chomp). Contrary Leaf Storm can really weaken teams, picking off one or two pokemon, or even just cleaning up at the end of the match. And with Reflect/Synthesis you can just set up leaf storms on pokemon that can't beat that. And to top off it's usefulness, Glare can punish Serp switchins well and it's cool for paralyzing chomp and lando too. It's also a great way to deal with CM suicune/slowbro and can muscle through a lot of defensive mons in general.
It's way too low right now imo. The reflect helm set is one of the best offensive checks to mega kan(and other physical attackers like chomp). Contrary Leaf Storm can really weaken teams, picking off one or two pokemon, or even just cleaning up at the end of the match. And with Reflect/Synthesis you can just set up leaf storms on pokemon that can't beat that. And to top off it's usefulness, Glare can punish Serp switchins well and it's cool for paralyzing chomp and lando too. It's also a great way to deal with CM suicune/slowbro and can muscle through a lot of defensive mons in general.
I agree, serp is pretty cool.
Support this. Grass isn't a great defensive or offensive typing but it does punish certain Water-types that would otherwise be fairly difficult to take down - looking at Rotom-W and Swampert here in particular. Glare is probably Serperior's best draw - its switch-ins are reduced to just Electric types and a handful of Limber users, so it's incredibly spammable and can neutralise an unprepared offensive team with ease. A Rank.
On that note, I'm going to nominate Hawlucha for C+ Rank, or perhaps C. Being a fast Fighting-type in a meta where Mega Kangaskhan exists is a pretty significant boon, especially when you can do this:
252 Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Kangaskhan: 176-210 (97.2 - 116%)
Hawlucha's typing and movepool makes it a great late-game cleaner that can blast straight through the likes of Serperior, Mega Venusaur, Conkeldurr, Mamoswine (assuming it's at full HP and able to tank an Ice Shard), Heatran, Ferrothorn and Kangaskhan and keep going. Unfortunately, while Hawlucha's Fighting/Flying STAB coverage is very good against a variety of threats in the meta, it's completely stonewalled by several members of the top 12: Aegislash, Zapdos and Thundurus all resist both of Hawlucha's STABs, forming an effective roadblock against a sweep and normally making for a good enough incentive to leave Hawlucha on the bench. However, these Pokémon have their own answers in the form of Pokémon like Excadrill and Mamoswine, so they're reasonably straightforward to cover for. This doesn't stop them from being a major thorn in Hawlucha's side, particularly Thundurus, which is getting more popular and shuts Hawlucha down completely with Prankster Thunder Wave. Still, the ability to neutralise Mega Kangaskhan and the format's Grass-types in one slot is definitely worth it.
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Chansey for B-
Despite being extremely similar to Porygon2, they both function on different teams. If anything, Chansey is a must-have on a stall-oriented team. Often times, there isn't a single specially offensive Poke that can break through Chansey. Its access to Seismic Toss allows it to get through other walls. Chansey arguably only has one weakness, but it's a huge, extremely crippling weakness (which is why I'm putting it in B/B-): any physical attacker.Mega (did I actually put Mega Chansey? Lol I'm bad) Chansey cannot deal with physical attackers. Most of them are guaranteed to 2HKO Chansey without taking into account any stat boosts, hazards, or items. That being said, it can just swap out of those, which is why it functions so well on a stall team.
Despite being extremely similar to Porygon2, they both function on different teams. If anything, Chansey is a must-have on a stall-oriented team. Often times, there isn't a single specially offensive Poke that can break through Chansey. Its access to Seismic Toss allows it to get through other walls. Chansey arguably only has one weakness, but it's a huge, extremely crippling weakness (which is why I'm putting it in B/B-): any physical attacker.
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So I'm looking at the top 50 stats and the following Pokemon aren't ranked yet:
Mega Heracross
Mega Scizor
Scizor
Conkeldurr
Thundurus-T
Cloyster
According to the usage stats, Mega Heracross was mostly used as a wallbreaker with the ability to ignore Sturdy, Sashes, and Substitute, Mega Scizor was either a Swords Dance sweeper or a bulky pivot with U-turn and Roost, regular Scizor often had a Choice Band for powerful U-turns/Bullet Punches and sometimes had Lum Berry for SD sets, Conkeldurr was usually AV and had priority, semi-recovery with Drain Punch, and isn't too concerned about status due to Guts, Thundurus-T could be either a Nasty Plot sweeper or a Volt Switch user with Scarf/AV, and Cloyster was usually a Shell Smash sweeper. I'd support all of these to be ranked, but I'd like some discussion since I haven't used them.
According to the usage stats, Mega Heracross was mostly used as a wallbreaker with the ability to ignore Sturdy, Sashes, and Substitute, Mega Scizor was either a Swords Dance sweeper or a bulky pivot with U-turn and Roost, regular Scizor often had a Choice Band for powerful U-turns/Bullet Punches and sometimes had Lum Berry for SD sets, Conkeldurr was usually AV and had priority, semi-recovery with Drain Punch, and isn't too concerned about status due to Guts, Thundurus-T could be either a Nasty Plot sweeper or a Volt Switch user with Scarf/AV, and Cloyster was usually a Shell Smash sweeper. I'd support all of these to be ranked, but I'd like some discussion since I haven't used them.
Yeah the council actually discussed this a while ago when we saw the top 50 last season. IIRC we pretty much agreed on where each is placed, but idk if Feli is still taking care of this thread anymore after his departure from BS, it may need a revamp.So I'm looking at the top 50 stats and the following Pokemon aren't ranked yet:
Mega Heracross
Mega Scizor
Scizor
Conkeldurr
Thundurus-T
Cloyster
According to the usage stats, Mega Heracross was mostly used as a wallbreaker with the ability to ignore Sturdy, Sashes, and Substitute, Mega Scizor was either a Swords Dance sweeper or a bulky pivot with U-turn and Roost, regular Scizor often had a Choice Band for powerful U-turns/Bullet Punches and sometimes had Lum Berry for SD sets, Conkeldurr was usually AV and had priority, semi-recovery with Drain Punch, and isn't too concerned about status due to Guts, Thundurus-T could be either a Nasty Plot sweeper or a Volt Switch user with Scarf/AV, and Cloyster was usually a Shell Smash sweeper. I'd support all of these to be ranked, but I'd like some discussion since I haven't used them.
I came up with a quick grade just comparing these pokemon to the rankings we have now. It's mostly out of what I've seen so feel free to say any objection :)
Heracross-Mega: A
Wallbreaking capability and coverage on par with MCY and Mawile
Scizor-Mega: A-
On par with Mega Gyara and Mega luc on having a great ability, typing, and setup move. And priority.
Scizor: B
On par with Bisharp
Conkeldurr: not sure, around B+ maybe?
Thundurus-T: B+
On par with Hydreigon
Cloyster: C+
Super strong against only particular teams, similar to vivillon but has way better coverage so one above.
Heracross-Mega: A
Wallbreaking capability and coverage on par with MCY and Mawile
Scizor-Mega: A-
On par with Mega Gyara and Mega luc on having a great ability, typing, and setup move. And priority.
Scizor: B
On par with Bisharp
Conkeldurr: not sure, around B+ maybe?
Thundurus-T: B+
On par with Hydreigon
Cloyster: C+
Super strong against only particular teams, similar to vivillon but has way better coverage so one above.
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Some rapid fire proposals here:
Suicune to A+ rather because it's been sitting in the top 12 for a few seasons and now it just got buffed. Would consider S w/ Sheer Cold but I also don't want to overhype it.
Serperior to A. Why is this thing tiered in the same place with bad mons (or just incredibly situational) like Infernape and Feraligatr. I'm also sure that Serperior being in the top 20 for the past few months says at least something about its viability. Flexible (can tank, can sash), disruptive and can get out of control pretty hard with Leaf Storm spams.
Lopunny should drop to B+ because it's pretty mediocre vs most balanced teams and is only good against glass cannon offense. Competition vs Blaziken as a fighting type is another thing, as Blaziken gets Speed Boost, more SE coverage, and just does a lot more damage.
Not sure if Mandibuzz still deserves A-
Mega Altaria to B+ due to its versatility and the ability to destroy Steel-types as a Fairy. It also checks Blaziken and both Zard formes which is a pretty strong quality to have.
Latios to B+ because it still does a ton of damage + checks rotom-h/rotom-w+garchomp and gives both charizard formes a run for their money. Can't rly explain this one further tho, but I think having Lati@s in the same tier as Sharpedo, Mega Aggron, and Scrafty is wrong (and yes this means those 3 need to drop)
Breloom to A- because Serperior exists and that limits part of why you use Breloom (Sash + disabling status). Oh and Serp is pretty common and it checks Loom pretty hard with the Helmet set too.
Sylveon to B+. Great Moody check and has high enough special defense to be a backup check to most special attackers in general. CM/Rest can also dismantle some stall teams.
Mega Sableye's too slow paced and is asking to get haxed. Also entry hazard stacking is pretty rare which cuts a lot of the reason you'd use it in the first place. B+
Raikou to B+. It's not a worse Mega Manectric, and it's also not worse than it.
Diggersby to B-. Ghost immunity + STAB ground from 236 Attack makes it such a strong weapon against Aegislash. Decent Assault Vest holder to counter Electrics, and in general not easy to switch into.
Mega Venusaur to B+ because it's still pretty annoying to take down since its weaknesses are pretty few and is immune to Toxic, and it can deal a fair amount of damage. Somewhat exploitable though (4mss, gengar, mega salamence, etc).
Quagsire to B-. This mon just doesnt rly do much anymore and is a pretty big Gengar bait. Also now a Suicune bait.
Suicune to A+ rather because it's been sitting in the top 12 for a few seasons and now it just got buffed. Would consider S w/ Sheer Cold but I also don't want to overhype it.
Serperior to A. Why is this thing tiered in the same place with bad mons (or just incredibly situational) like Infernape and Feraligatr. I'm also sure that Serperior being in the top 20 for the past few months says at least something about its viability. Flexible (can tank, can sash), disruptive and can get out of control pretty hard with Leaf Storm spams.
Lopunny should drop to B+ because it's pretty mediocre vs most balanced teams and is only good against glass cannon offense. Competition vs Blaziken as a fighting type is another thing, as Blaziken gets Speed Boost, more SE coverage, and just does a lot more damage.
Not sure if Mandibuzz still deserves A-
Mega Altaria to B+ due to its versatility and the ability to destroy Steel-types as a Fairy. It also checks Blaziken and both Zard formes which is a pretty strong quality to have.
Latios to B+ because it still does a ton of damage + checks rotom-h/rotom-w+garchomp and gives both charizard formes a run for their money. Can't rly explain this one further tho, but I think having Lati@s in the same tier as Sharpedo, Mega Aggron, and Scrafty is wrong (and yes this means those 3 need to drop)
Breloom to A- because Serperior exists and that limits part of why you use Breloom (Sash + disabling status). Oh and Serp is pretty common and it checks Loom pretty hard with the Helmet set too.
Sylveon to B+. Great Moody check and has high enough special defense to be a backup check to most special attackers in general. CM/Rest can also dismantle some stall teams.
Mega Sableye's too slow paced and is asking to get haxed. Also entry hazard stacking is pretty rare which cuts a lot of the reason you'd use it in the first place. B+
Raikou to B+. It's not a worse Mega Manectric, and it's also not worse than it.
Diggersby to B-. Ghost immunity + STAB ground from 236 Attack makes it such a strong weapon against Aegislash. Decent Assault Vest holder to counter Electrics, and in general not easy to switch into.
Mega Venusaur to B+ because it's still pretty annoying to take down since its weaknesses are pretty few and is immune to Toxic, and it can deal a fair amount of damage. Somewhat exploitable though (4mss, gengar, mega salamence, etc).
Quagsire to B-. This mon just doesnt rly do much anymore and is a pretty big Gengar bait. Also now a Suicune bait.
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Feliburn announced some time ago that he can no longer commit to keeping this updated. Unless he's back now, I'll have to go through and edit the OP with changes and/or have someone else start a Viability Ranks 2.0
Didn't we discuss with him a week or so ago? lol
Regice to C-
It's almost physically painful to rank this guy so low, since I love the Regis(except, perhaps, Regigigas), but it does have problems with a lot of prominent Pokemon. It still has ridiculous special defense, though, and great coverage which makes me think it should at least be D rank.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Regice in Sun through Light Screen: 57-67 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regice: 114-136 (60.9 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Regice: 73-86 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regice: 126-150 (67.3 - 80.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regice: 63-75 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
It's almost physically painful to rank this guy so low, since I love the Regis(except, perhaps, Regigigas), but it does have problems with a lot of prominent Pokemon. It still has ridiculous special defense, though, and great coverage which makes me think it should at least be D rank.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Regice in Sun through Light Screen: 57-67 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regice: 114-136 (60.9 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Assault Vest Regice: 73-86 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regice: 126-150 (67.3 - 80.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regice: 63-75 (33.6 - 40.1%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and sandstorm damage
Omastar68 I appreciate the enthusiasm man but there are some issues here
This is honestly not a very common situation. Basically requiring Regice to be used with a screens user means 2/3 of your team is used up just for Regice to be used, and that's not quite good enough for C- class.
Being 2HKO'd is really not that impressive. It basically means you can never switch in on a Garchomp, and even if you are already in, a lot of Garchomps carry Focus Sash so you'd have to take two hits anyway.
The biggest issue here is that even though Regice can take 1 or 2 hits from these Pokemon, it doesn't really do anything to capitalize on it. Sure, it can survive, but how does that help you? It's not really an offensive or defensive threat, and it doesn't really use the momentum to set up anything either.
I'd say Avalugg outclasses it as a defensive Pokemon (even though Avalugg has its fair share of problems as well) but honestly I can't really give you examples of better Pokemon because you haven't really said what Regice actually does, only what it can survive. We're really missing a lot of details here.
This is honestly not a very common situation. Basically requiring Regice to be used with a screens user means 2/3 of your team is used up just for Regice to be used, and that's not quite good enough for C- class.
Being 2HKO'd is really not that impressive. It basically means you can never switch in on a Garchomp, and even if you are already in, a lot of Garchomps carry Focus Sash so you'd have to take two hits anyway.
Not sure what Blast means here, I'll assume Fire Blast but you didn't say which Pokemon.
This is even more damning evidence, I'm not sure why it was included.
Not very impressive either, many Pokemon can survive hits from Hippowdon, and besides, Hippowdon is not an offensive threat.
The biggest issue here is that even though Regice can take 1 or 2 hits from these Pokemon, it doesn't really do anything to capitalize on it. Sure, it can survive, but how does that help you? It's not really an offensive or defensive threat, and it doesn't really use the momentum to set up anything either.
I'd say Avalugg outclasses it as a defensive Pokemon (even though Avalugg has its fair share of problems as well) but honestly I can't really give you examples of better Pokemon because you haven't really said what Regice actually does, only what it can survive. We're really missing a lot of details here.
Hey guys, noticed that Politoed, Kabutops and Kingdra are all unranked, and I think they deserve ranking as rain is a strong archetype in any format and BS is no exception. - I'd rank Kabutops and Kingdra at B (same as M-Swampert) as they trade Swampert's bulk for slightly greater power, no opportunity cost of a mega stone, and in Kabutops' case, priority. "Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential." Kabutops can also run a gimmicky Liechi/Weakness Policy+Endure+Weak Armour set, but don't run that. Politoed I'd rank a bit higher at B+ as it provides immense team support, hits surprisingly hard with rain boosting its stab, and is quite versatile, viably running many sets such as scarf, specs, eject button, damp rock, sitrus berry and wacan berry. I think that politoed is definitely on par with mons such as Klefki, Mega Manectric, Quagsire, Terrakion and Weavile.
I realise that this thread is on a "break" atm but also mirroring Jibaku's post since it hasn't been implemented yet, particularly Suicune and Serperior.
I realise that this thread is on a "break" atm but also mirroring Jibaku's post since it hasn't been implemented yet, particularly Suicune and Serperior.
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