[DYAE Round Three] MOWTOM AND TEXAS CLOVERLEAF

tavok can we get an actual ref here

this is horseshit that i'm going to get screwed out of a very real chance to win based on hp totals because my ref can't do things before the deadline

tbh imo this is too close to call right now
 
Team Mowtom [XAB]: 103/310 (33.2%)
barbaracle.png

Barbaracle
@ Rare Candy
Abilities: Tough Claws, Sniper, Pickpocket
HP: 16
EN: 60
Stats: 5/5/1/3/68
Status: Disable [Earthquake] 4a
Granbull @ Rare Candy: 87 HP, 78 EN

Team Texas Cloverleaf [XXA]: 60/310 (19.4%)
weezing.png

Weezing
@ Expert Belt
Abilities: Levitate
HP: 60
EN: 87
Stats: 2/5/4/3/60
Status: Fine

Action 1

Barbaracle went underground! [-5 EN]


Weezing used Toxic Spikes! [-6 EN]

Barbaracle used Dig! [-5 EN]
Weezing's Levitate caused the attack to miss!

Action 2

Barbaracle used Substitute [15]! [-12 EN]
-20 HP, 20 HP Substitute created! [Barbaracle]

Weezing used Thunderbolt! [-7 EN]
Crit (625): 2505 NO
(9+2+1.5)*1.5 = 18.75 = 15
Barbaracle's substitute faded!


Action 3

Barbaracle used Smack Down! [-4 EN]
Crit (625): 2533 NO
(5+3+1)*1 = 9
Weezing was knocked down!


Weezing used Hidden Power! [-4 EN]
Crit (625): 4425 NO
(6+2+1.5)*2.25 = 21.375
Barbaracle was KO'd!

Team Mowtom [XXB]: 87/310 (28.1%) - Toxic Spikes 1
barbaracle.png

Barbaracle
@ Rare Candy
Abilities: Tough Claws, Sniper, Pickpocket
HP: KO
EN: 34
Stats: 5/5/1/3/68
Status: Disable [Earthquake] 1a
Granbull @ Rare Candy: 87 HP, 78 EN

Team Texas Cloverleaf [XXA]: 60/310 (19.4%)
weezing.png

Weezing
@ Expert Belt
Abilities: Levitate
HP: 51
EN: 70
Stats: 2/5/4/3/60
Status: Knocked Down 5a

Mowtom sends out Granbull (PSN) and orders
Texas Cloverleaf orders
I ref

EDIT: Smack Down and Weezing fixed, Granbull isn't poisoned
EDIT2: Granbull is poisoned, I tweaked a little bit
 
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17:56 Mowtom Can I say "IF (not pain split while you are slower) AND (not taunt while you are slower) THEN xxx"?
17:57 Frosty sure

If that is legal, my third sub should be fine. If Frosty gets overruled, I would like a reorder.
Spr_HGSS_Silver.png
"Smack Down should have had the RC boost and done 9 damage, leaving Weezing with 51 HP (you didn't deduct HP from it at all)."
granbull.gif
*is terrified of Weezing*
Taunt~Taunt~Taunt
IF
damaging Poison-type combo AND you do not have a Substitute up THEN Substitute (15)
IF Weezing is under P/E THEN Metronome (Shift Gear/Gravity/Hyperspace Fury/Shadow Force/Aqua Ring/Defend Order/Ingrain/Coil/Charge/Dragon Dance) the first time and Metronome (Doom Desire/Future Sight/Hyperspace Fury/Shadow Force/Recover/Heal Order/Synthesis/Coil/Moonlight/Dragon Dance) the second
IF (NOT Taunt while you are faster) AND (NOT Pain Split while you are faster) THEN Earthquake the first time, Dig the second, Earthquake the third
 
Frosty since you're the only person who understands the sub rules please clarify the following

[21:27:12] <Texas> so his attacks do 17.25 - 14.25 - 17.25 and i dont really have a good way to get around an a2 dig
[21:27:25] <Texas> if i take a dig+eq i take 32 damage, leaving me with 19
[21:27:32] <Texas> when his strongest attack does 17.25
[21:28:03] <Texas> if i poison combo a1 with like smog or some shit, he loses 15 hp and an EQ turn, and I venoshock a3 on eq
[21:28:21] <Texas> dealing 15+6+29ish=50ish, 27 remaining
[21:28:33] <Texas> and in KO range of a venoshock next round
[21:29:32] <Texas> of course this is complicated by his ridiculous sub, since both his 1st and 3rd subs would activate, with the 1st taking priority
[21:29:47] <Texas> but still fulfilling the requirements of EQ the first time, just being superseded by the sub sub
[21:33:41] <Texas> the other alternative to whenever you get around to giving feedback on that
[21:33:54] <Texas> is rest ~ stalk ~ stalk with 4 poison moves ranging from 16-29 damage
[21:34:04] <Texas> taking 13 damage cumulative in the process
[21:34:52] <dogfish44> that's not a bad option. The first option I'd need to check, but I think Poison Combo ~ Cooldow ~ Venoshock would result in Sub (15) ~ EQ ~ Dig, since the 3rd sub didn't activate A1 :x
[21:35:06] <dogfish44> those are some ruddy airtight orders to have to break =.=
[21:35:20] <Texas> see i dont agree with that
[21:35:30] <Texas> the condition to activate sub 3 works
[21:35:35] <Texas> changing the order to EQ
[21:35:42] <Texas> and then sub 1 activates reuslting in sub (15)
[21:36:00] <Texas> because that part of sub 3 is the chance clause
[21:36:03] <dogfish44> the issue is sub 1 is checked first, and once one sub activates it ignores all others outright (Hence why Sub 1 takes precedence)
[21:36:08] <Texas> so the condition for activation is fulfilled
[21:37:10] <dogfish44> it's why "IF Combo ( X + Y ) Then A" and "IF X Then B on first instance, C on second, B on third" works as you'd want it to.
[21:37:22] <Texas> 3. Substitutions activate whenever the trigger's conditions are met, and the result of that activation is legally usable.
[21:38:03] <Texas> i'm not disputing that s1 would be the end result, only that the condition for s3's move chain is fulfilled
[21:38:18] <Texas> so the argument is that it becomes interpreted as "first instance"
[21:38:55] <dogfish44> basically, is the first instance: "the first time S3 is the end result", or "the first time S3's conditions activate"
[21:39:16] <Texas> essentially yes

IF the above is valid, then use Clear Smog+Clear Smog ~ cool down ~ Venoshock



edit: yes there needs to be a way for mowtom to lock down every and all counterplay from his opponent. this is critical.

edit to edit to edit: funny, i made the same argument when frosty ruled against me in the tournament match vs birkal
 
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Spr_HGSS_Silver.png
"I'd like to take a moment to make sure we are as clear as antique elven crystal that if this forces my order set to be Substitute (15)~Dig~EQ I WILL be bringing this up in Policy Review. There needs to be a way to make a sub with the same meaning what I want it to mean that doesn't fall victim to this sub sillyness."

Edit to edit: Right. This is only about me and totally not something that could work against me in the future. In all seriousness, it is plain what my sub meant and something that will come up again in waaaaaay less contrived scenarios.
 
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Changed my mind, I think this achieves the same effect but more favourable

Frosty would still like a ruling on the above

Venoshock ~ Substitute (20) ~ Venoshock

no crits please


edit3: UGH FUCK WHY IS GRANBULL GETTING 2 RANKS FROM RARE CANDY UGHHHHH THAT INVALIDATES LIKE ALL MY ACTION SETS UGHHHH

edit4:
Damn. That sub is bonkers and I don't think I can win. RIP me.
 
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Team Mowtom [XXA]: 87/310 (28.1%) - Toxic Spikes 1
granbull.png

Snubbull
@ Rare Candy
Abilities: Intimidate, Quick Feet, Rattled
HP: 87
EN: 78
Stats: 5/3/1/3/45
Status: PSN (2DPA, Speed: 68)

Team Texas Cloverleaf [XXA]: 60/310 (19.4%)
weezing.png

Weezing
@ Expert Belt
Abilities: Levitate
HP: 51
EN: 70
Stats: 2/5/4/3/60
Status: Knocked Down 5a

Snubbull's Intimidate! -1 Atk (N) [Weezing]

Action 1

Snubbull used Earthquake! [-7 EN]
Crit (625): 2846 NO
(10+2.5)*1.5 = 18.75


Weezing used Venoshock! [-7 EN]
Crit (625): 8915 NO
(13+3+2+1.5)*1.5 = 29.25


-2hp [Snubbull]

Action 2

Snubbull went underground! [-5 EN]

Weezing used Substitute [20]! [-18 EN]
-20 HP, 20 HP Substitute created [Weezing]

Snubbull used Dig! [-5 EN]
Crit (625): 8708 NO
(8+2.5)*1.5 = 15.75


-2hp [Snubbull]

Action 3

Snubbull used Earthquake! [-7 EN]
Crit (625): 3801 NO
(10+2.5)*1.5 = 18.75 = 4.25
Weezing's substitute faded!


Weezing used Venoshock! [-7 EN]
Crit (625): 8907 NO
(13+3+2+1.5)*1.5 = 29.25


-2hp [Snubbull]

Team Mowtom [XXA]: 22/310 (7.1%) - Toxic Spikes 1
granbull.png

Snubbull
@ Rare Candy
Abilities: Intimidate, Quick Feet, Rattled
HP: 22
EN: 54
Stats: 7/3/1/3/45
Status: PSN (2DPA, Speed: 68)

Team Texas Cloverleaf [XXA]: 12/310 (3.9%)
weezing.png

Weezing
@ Expert Belt
Abilities: Levitate
HP: 12
EN: 48
Stats: 2/5/4/3/60
Status: Knocked Down 2a, -1 Atk (N)

Texas Cloverleaf orders
Mowtom orders
I ref
 
K, uhh...

We kinda had this problem before. And we ended up not deciding on the matter, because other technicalities "solved" the issue. See the third (unasked) question here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/substitutions-and-cooldown.3539003/.

Regarding this situation, and considering the wording of the new sub rules, I would argue that what counts is actual activation, not just the fulfillment of the requirements. That is due to two things:

1) The Handbook states that: "The result of a Substitute's "activation" can be changed by instance, but the trigger never changes.". I am reading that as "The result of a Substitute's "activation" can be changed by the instance of the "activation", instead of "The result of a Substitute's "activation can be changed by the instance it is triggered". So what matters is that the sub must activate, not only the trigger fulfilled. There is a difference between the both, as I will show below.

2) The second rule says that "Substitutions either activate, or they don't." and the third says that "Substitutions activate whenever the trigger's conditions are met, and the result of that activation is legally usable". The bolded part means that the result of the sub activation must be legal, which means that both:
a) The "Action Clause" (second half of the sub) must be legal
b) The sub can legally activate in those circumstances.

I will get somewhere, so keep up with me.

The second meaning is what matters here. When a sub activates, the action-set is changed. The second rule says that it either activates or not, so the middle term "activates but doesn't actually activate" isn't possible.

This is actually a result of a council voting. See here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/substitutions-overhaul.3519902/#post-5883336

To sum up the old shit: there was once a proposal to enable "two or more substitutions activate on a given situation, as long as there isn't any conflict between them". The proposal was DENIED by the council, which basically means it said that "only one substitution can activate on a given situation. If no priority is said, then the first sub will activate in detriment of the second and third". The reasonings brought on the posts make me draw said conclusion. This means that it is illegal for two subs to activate at the same time, so only the top one activates and the bottom one doesn't as per third rule.

So we get that:
1) The Result of a substitute can change based on the instance of its activation, not of its trigger.
2) When the trigger of two substitutions is fulfilled at the same time (read: 2 or 3 subs CAN activate), only the top sub WILL activate. So the bottom sub CAN activate, but WON'T. Because the council once decided that two subs can't activate at the same time.

So yeah, my "ruling" would be that a Clear Smog+Clear Smog ~ cool down ~ Venoshock action set would make Granbull use 15hp sub - EQ - Dig.



BTW, even I admit that this isn't the most reliable ruling ever, so it might be adviseable to poke the council to decide specifically on the matter. Also because it has amusing repercussions. For example, consider the following sub:

Surf - Surf - Surf
IF Thunder Punch THEN Acid Armor on the first instance, Counter on the second and push back

If the opponent answers with Taunt - Thunder Punch - Thunder Punch, we will get two different possible outcomes:
a) If the instance is of the trigger occuring: Our pokemon will use Surf - Surf - Counter, since on the second time the trigger occurs, the result of the sub is legal, therefore it can activate just fine, even if the first instance was illegal.
b) If the instance is of the sub activating: Our pokemon will use Surf - Surf - Surf, since the sub never activated due to the result of the first activation is illegal.


dunno which option should be emphasized tbh. One of the advantages of not being on the council is that I don't need to care about that haha.
 
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Endure ~ Sludge Bomb ~ Sludge
If Substitute, Clear Smog that action and push back
If Granbull is using the attacking stage of Dig AND you are under Endure THEN use Sludge+Sludge Bomb that action
If Double Team then Toxic+Venoshock that action and cry deeply

Well, that's all folks. That sub last round was seriously ridiculous, ironclad lock down of options.
 
Spr_HGSS_Silver.png
"This has been an interesting battle. A bit too much hax coming from my side, a clear team-selection advantage on Texas' part, and my questionably-legal sub that just sorta made Texas give up...Yeah, I should not have won this. Texas, I'm sorry if I was being a jerk to you during this battle, especially with the early Taunt combo. But you have to admit it was a very interesting fight."
granbull.gif
*realizes that Enduring Pokemon can't use combos*
Chill~Dig~Dig
 
Worth a shot

edit: I spent wayyyy too long trying to figure out what you were most likely to overlook lol, there was unfortunately too much to cover even without factoring weezing being unable to hit dig
 
Spr_HGSS_Silver.png
"Ok now I sooooorta want to know what else you thought I'd overlook."
 
Team Mowtom [XXA]: 22/310 (7.1%) - Toxic Spikes 1
granbull.png

Snubbull
@ Rare Candy
Abilities: Intimidate, Quick Feet, Rattled
HP: 22
EN: 54
Stats: 7/3/1/3/45
Status: PSN (2DPA, Speed: 68)

Team Texas Cloverleaf [XXA]: 12/310 (3.9%)
weezing.png

Weezing
@ Expert Belt
Abilities: Levitate
HP: 12
EN: 48
Stats: 2/5/4/3/60
Status: Knocked Down 2a, -1 Atk (N)

Note: Texas's second substitute never activates
Action 1

Weezing used Endure!
Weezing braces itself!
EN Cost: 15


Snubbull used Chill!
+12 EN [Snubbull]

-2 HP [Snubbull]

Action 2

Snubbull went underground!

Weezing used Sludge Bomb!
Dodged!
EN Cost: 7-1=6


Snubbull used Dig!
Crit (625): 4670 NO
DMG: (8+2.5)*1.5 = 15.75 = 11
Endured!
EN Cost: 10


-2 HP [Snubbull]

Action 3

Snubbull went underground!

Weezing used Sludge!
Dodged!
EN Cost: 5-1=4


Snubbull used Dig!
Missed! [Weezing's Levitate]
EN Cost: 10+4=14


-2 HP [Snubbull]

Team Mowtom [XXA]: 22/310 (7.1%) - Toxic Spikes 1
granbull.png

Snubbull
@ Rare Candy
Abilities: Intimidate, Quick Feet, Rattled
HP: 16
EN: 42
Stats: 7/3/1/3/45
Status: PSN (2DPA, Speed: 68)

Team Texas Cloverleaf [XXA]: 12/310 (3.9%)
weezing.png

Weezing
@ Expert Belt
Abilities: Levitate
HP: 1
EN: 23
Stats: 2/5/4/3/60
Status: Can't Endure 1r, -1 Atk (N)

Mowtom orders
Texas Cloverleaf orders
I end/ref
 
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Thought about baiting you into healing your own status via rest/heal bell and removing quick feet for this action hehe

But weezing actually has NOTHING for dig

Self-destruct+Explosion

wait not really

quick attack+sludge bomb

damn srsly?

Sludge*3
 
Dig costs 10 EN, so Johto should have 42 EN left.
Spr_HGSS_Silver.png
"I order first here, but it isn't like I was going to use subs anyway. GG Texas!"
granbull.gif
*growls at jay for always calling him Snubbull*
Bite~Tackle~Bite
 
Team Mowtom [XXA]: 16/310 (5.2%) - Toxic Spikes 1
granbull.png

Granbull
@ Rare Candy
Abilities: Intimidate, Quick Feet, Rattled
HP: 16
EN: 42
Stats: 7/3/1/3/45
Status: PSN (2DPA, Speed: 68)

Team Texas Cloverleaf [XXA]: 1/310 (0.3%)
weezing.png

Weezing
@ Expert Belt
Abilities: Levitate
HP: 1
EN: 23
Stats: 2/5/4/3/60
Status: Can't Endure 1r, -1 Atk (N)

Action 1

Granbull used Bite!

Can't miss or do less than 1 DMG
Weezing was KO'd!
EN Cost: 4
-2 HP [Granbull]

Team Mowtom [XXA]: 14/310 (4.5%) - Toxic Spikes 1
granbull.png

Granbull
@ Rare Candy
Abilities: Intimidate, Quick Feet, Rattled
HP: 14
EN: 38
Stats: 7/3/1/3/45
Status: PSN (2DPA, Speed: 68)

Team Texas Cloverleaf [XXA]: 0/310 (0%)
weezing.png

Weezing
@ Expert Belt
Abilities: Levitate
HP: KO
EN: 23
Stats: 2/5/4/3/60
Status: Can't Endure 1r, -1 Atk (N)

Mowtom wins!
Mowtom: 3 CC, 5 UC
Texas Cloverleaf: 3 CC
jayelt413: (10 [3v3] + 4 [Bonus - (13-((3*3)/1))]) * 1.5 [Tourney Multiplier] = 21 UC
 
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