Resource USUM AG Viability Rankings

[Zenithial]

haven't made noms before, don't shoot me down if you think these are outrageous:

Arceus: A to A-

There is no doubt in my mind ekiller has just kept getting worse and worse, and yet the viability rankings do not reflect this. In gen 7 there have been a lot of things that can check and counter ekiller, which are very commonly used. First and foremost, the introduction of Marshadow, which as a ghost type is immune to extreme speed and can retaliate with cc, which is basically an ohko against most sets with life orb. While it's risky for marsh to switch into ekiller due to it maybe using sub or shadow claw, late game if Marshadow can catch it 1v1 it would cause issues. Another issue ekiller faces is overcoming the infamous zygarde-c, where it basically gets completely walled unless it's life orb ice beam, which you could say is a bit of a meme. In addition, defensive yve can also wall +2 extreme speed and deal huge amounts of damage to Arceus. Dusk mane has made defensive yve a frequent mon and is very nice to have. Celesteela can also effortless put away some ekiller sets, barring sub lefties which has become more of a frequent set in usum. Skarmory is also increasing in popularity due to dusk mane, as the iron defence set can wall it and just about have enough pp to stall it out. As you can see, the introduction of marshadow and dusk mane(inadvertently) has really decreased the viability of ekiller. I understand that ekiller is not meant to be a wall breaker, but as a anti sweeper mechanism and a late game threat, but I feel it does not pose enough of a problem for the opposition to deal with for it to be an A ranked mon. When comparing it the A mons around it, I believe it is outclassed by the likes of fairyceus, cele and ho-oh. However I am not sure how relevant comparing to other mons in the same rank is to prove it's viability, but it is still a fact it is a very weak A rank mon.

Important Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 424-502 (96.1 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 171-202 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 364-430 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (at +2)
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 202-238 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (though some yve runs a little speed)
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 172-204 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Though sub lefties usually beats supportceus, you still have to time sub right and make sure not to get toxiced or you will get walled. Life orb sets only just about do over half so also really struggles 1v1 against supportceus. (though you could say 1v1s are irrelevant, but it can happen late game).

I understand that Arceus can be used in a supporting role as well as an offensive one, however this usually means you get trapped by m gar as some do not run coverage for it. Toxic users/steel types also still hamper support Arceus, and there is no doubt fairyceus/groundceus is a much better option.

Ferrothorn: A- to A
I would like to support cro's post that ferro should receive more recognition for the role it plays in ag. It has a very nice movepool, can avoid being trapped by gothitelle with bullet seed and walls support fairyceus/groundceus very nicely. It is also a decent Primal Kyogre check, though it can prove more unreliable than pdon and chansey due to calm sets and water spout. The ability to be able to stack hazards really is the main thing about this mon. It can pressure most defoggers barring giratina (which is decreasing in usage). Leech support can also be very nice for some times to help chip their mons and help your mons out on the switch in. While it does give some offensive physical opportunities away, the right team support can be used to overcome this, e.g Zygarde, m gar to revenge kill threats. It can also check some xerneas sets, though it usually loses to geo sets as they run focus blast, but as an emergency ferrothorn with gyro can take out xerneas. It's just an all round annoying mon to play against and almost always puts in work against most teams. Vital leech seed chips really do add up and this mon can wear down a lot of teams. Again, compared to the other mons in the A- category I would say it outclasses most of those mons due to its amazing longevity and just being a really solid mon to use.

Important Calcs:

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 123-144 (34.9 - 40.9%) -- 60.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 99-117 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- 85.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Arceus-Fairy Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (not too relevant but that is beast)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-693701477
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-694251604
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-694240280

Arceus-Dragon
C to B-

Just hear me out here. Support dragceus is honestly a set that is underrated and should be more widely considered. When you look at dragceus, it really isn't a whole lot different from waterceus and the role that it plays. It can wall eruption pdon sets which is very nice, it in fact can wall pogre when spdef invested which waterceus cannot do due to thunder. 1v1 it can beat zygarde, like waterceus, but does even more to Mega Rayquaza than ice beam due to strong winds. I am not saying it is better than waterceus, but it can play similar roles and yet is far down the viability rankings in comparison to waterceus. Dragceus does get walled by dusk mane , but wisp can be used to counter this as a way to hamper dusk mane immensely as an option. Fairy immunity is also an issue, but another option could be to toxic these mons, or use mega gar to trap fairies etc. I don't think offensive sets should be considered, but I've never tried it so I cannot speak for it. Dragon has many resistances which just makes it a very solid support mon to use. Not many other dragons can play a similar role except gira/gira o, but gira has no reliable recovery and the recent rise of dark spam in the current meta hampers gira a lot more than dragceus.

Important Calcs:

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Arceus-Dragon: 180-212 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dragon in Harsh Sunshine: 191-225 (43 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO (if invested in more spdef than this would be a lot safer)
0 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 452-534 (128.7 - 152.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 318-374 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(couldn't find dragceus replays unfortunately sry)

Edit:

Slurpuff: unranked to D

I'm not sure if someone has already nommed this but I think slurpuff should definitely be ranked. It has a very good movepool for a web setter, with the likes of yawn, webs(obv) magic coat, dazzling gleam (mega sabe). Unburden is also a very important ability as you need the speed boost for taunt users, as you magic coat first and then lay webs if they hit and unburden activates once it goes under half hp. Shuckle has certainly become more unreliable due to dusk mane using its z, which can be played around but is certainly an annoyance and a threat. Smeargle is still arguably a better web setter, but it does have niche counters and doesn;t always get webs up, making slurpuff a really solid option.

Important calcs:
0 SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega: 134-162 (44 - 53.2%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Slurpuff Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega: 192-228 (63.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Zesty43]

haven't made noms before, don't shoot me down if you think these are outrageous:

Arceus: A to A-

There is no doubt in my mind ekiller has just kept getting worse and worse, and yet the viability rankings do not reflect this. In gen 7 there have been a lot of things that can check and counter ekiller, which are very commonly used. First and foremost, the introduction of Marshadow, which as a ghost type is immune to extreme speed and can retaliate with cc, which is basically an ohko against most sets with life orb. While it's risky for marsh to switch into ekiller due to it maybe using sub or shadow claw, late game if Marshadow can catch it 1v1 it would cause issues. Another issue ekiller faces is overcoming the infamous zygarde-c, where it basically gets completely walled unless it's life orb ice beam, which you could say is a bit of a meme. In addition, defensive yve can also wall +2 extreme speed and deal huge amounts of damage to Arceus. Dusk mane has made defensive yve a frequent mon and is very nice to have. Celesteela can also effortless put away some ekiller sets, barring sub lefties which has become more of a frequent set in usum. Skarmory is also increasing in popularity due to dusk mane, as the iron defence set can wall it and just about have enough pp to stall it out. As you can see, the introduction of marshadow and dusk mane(inadvertently) has really decreased the viability of ekiller. I understand that ekiller is not meant to be a wall breaker, but as a anti sweeper mechanism and a late game threat, but I feel it does not pose enough of a problem for the opposition to deal with for it to be an A ranked mon. When comparing it the A mons around it, I believe it is outclassed by the likes of fairyceus, cele and ho-oh. However I am not sure how relevant comparing to other mons in the same rank is to prove it's viability, but it is still a fact it is a very weak A rank mon.

Important Calcs:
252 Atk Life Orb Marshadow Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 424-502 (96.1 - 113.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zygarde: 171-202 (40.7 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0- Atk Dark Aura Yveltal Foul Play vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 364-430 (82.5 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (at +2)
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Yveltal: 202-238 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (though some yve runs a little speed)
+2 252+ Atk Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 172-204 (38.7 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Though sub lefties usually beats supportceus, you still have to time sub right and make sure not to get toxiced or you will get walled. Life orb sets only just about do over half so also really struggles 1v1 against supportceus. (though you could say 1v1s are irrelevant, but it can happen late game).

I understand that Arceus can be used in a supporting role as well as an offensive one, however this usually means you get trapped by m gar as some do not run coverage for it. Toxic users/steel types also still hamper support Arceus, and there is no doubt fairyceus/groundceus is a much better option.

Ferrothorn: A- to A
I would like to support cro's post that ferro should receive more recognition for the role it plays in ag. It has a very nice movepool, can avoid being trapped by gothitelle with bullet seed and walls support fairyceus/groundceus very nicely. It is also a decent Primal Kyogre check, though it can prove more unreliable than pdon and chansey due to calm sets and water spout. The ability to be able to stack hazards really is the main thing about this mon. It can pressure most defoggers barring giratina (which is decreasing in usage). Leech support can also be very nice for some times to help chip their mons and help your mons out on the switch in. While it does give some offensive physical opportunities away, the right team support can be used to overcome this, e.g Zygarde, m gar to revenge kill threats. It can also check some xerneas sets, though it usually loses to geo sets as they run focus blast, but as an emergency ferrothorn with gyro can take out xerneas. It's just an all round annoying mon to play against and almost always puts in work against most teams. Vital leech seed chips really do add up and this mon can wear down a lot of teams. Again, compared to the other mons in the A- category I would say it outclasses most of those mons due to its amazing longevity and just being a really solid mon to use.

Important Calcs:

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Heavy Rain: 123-144 (34.9 - 40.9%) -- 60.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre-Primal: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 99-117 (28.1 - 33.2%) -- 85.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Arceus-Fairy Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (not too relevant but that is beast)

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-693701477
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-694251604
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-694240280

Arceus-Dragon
C to B-

Just hear me out here. Support dragceus is honestly a set that is underrated and should be more widely considered. When you look at dragceus, it really isn't a whole lot different from waterceus and the role that it plays. It can wall eruption pdon sets which is very nice, it in fact can wall pogre when spdef invested which waterceus cannot do due to thunder. 1v1 it can beat zygarde, like waterceus, but does even more to Mega Rayquaza than ice beam due to strong winds. I am not saying it is better than waterceus, but it can play similar roles and yet is far down the viability rankings in comparison to waterceus. Dragceus does get walled by dusk mane , but wisp can be used to counter this as a way to hamper dusk mane immensely as an option. Fairy immunity is also an issue, but another option could be to toxic these mons, or use mega gar to trap fairies etc. I don't think offensive sets should be considered, but I've never tried it so I cannot speak for it. Dragon has many resistances which just makes it a very solid support mon to use. Not many other dragons can play a similar role except gira/gira o, but gira has no reliable recovery and the recent rise of dark spam in the current meta hampers gira a lot more than dragceus.

Important Calcs:

252+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Arceus-Dragon: 180-212 (40.5 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Groudon-Primal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Dragon in Harsh Sunshine: 191-225 (43 - 50.6%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO (if invested in more spdef than this would be a lot safer)
0 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza-Mega: 452-534 (128.7 - 152.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Draco Plate Arceus-Dragon Judgment vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 318-374 (75.7 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(couldn't find dragceus replays unfortunately sry)

I would like to start by backing the arc dragon post. It is certainly in my opinion far better than any of the mons at C and I would argue a lot of the ones at C. Along with checking the things you mentioned it can also check support arc ground as long as it does not have toxic.

I'm not sure about e-killer however. I still think that it is one of the best arc forms to run on offense as they are generally susceptible to mons like dd-ray and xern sweeping so you need the priority and as far as priority goes its the best mon in the tier. Its also and extremely potent late game sweeper given an opportunity to either get behind a sub or get to +2 and the z sets add a bit of versatility from an offensive perspective. Bulkceus is also an underrated mon in my opinion and one that is a but underused. As you mentioned it can be trapped if you run lefties but my personal favorite set is running shed shell with wisp,ice beam,recover and either roar or defog depending on the team as it acts as a great physical wall. So while i won't dispute that arc normal is not what it once was I still think it is definitely an A caliber mon.

I liked cro's nom of ferro so i will back this one too but it seems most people do not agree its A caliber.

 

[Zesty43]

Ho-oh from A to A+

In the current meta if you look at the viability rankings ho-oh has the ability to check the most common sets of 8 out of 10 of the mons from A to A+ not including itself. Ive also found recently that because you can now afford to run defog on ho-oh that the rocks issue has really decreased as it easily defogs on the 3 most common rockers in the current meta (ferro, don, dusk mane). In USUM we were also given curse as an option to run which has proven to be extremely effective in terms of acting as a balance breaker. so this leaves ho-oh with 4 viable sets Lo, defensive, curse, and band. Ive also seen Z celebrate not something I would recommend but just something i thought i would mention. The biggest issue facing this mon is that zyg is a hard check to it but curse has the ability to break it if you play smart enough by not putting it into complete form and Zyg does not threaten ho-oh enough to force it out immediately so it is extremely easy to play around.

I'll get replays but I feel that most of this stuff is pretty self explanatory

 

[IronedSandwich]

Ive also found recently that because you can now afford to run defog on ho-oh that the rocks issue has really decreased as it easily defogs on the 3 most common rockers in the current meta (ferro, don, dusk mane).

the problem with Ho-Oh as a defogger isn't a lack of moveslots, it's that Ho-Oh's 50% health cut from rocks means it's not safe to switch in to attacks as often, meaning that you're ability to reliably remove hazards is restricted. Ideally you'd want to remove hazards and then switch Ho-Oh in, not the other way around. Also, Don can also run rock coverage. So I don't think it should rise for this specific reason.

As a whole, Ho-Oh is definitely a very useful special tank. It has a great movepool, good typing (aside from Stealth Rock) and good stats. It can indeed check many of the pokemon in A+, A and A-, giving it a solid use. However, A+ is a very high bar:

rambling

the pokemon currently in A+ are all very difficult to beat: Mega Gengar can choose its matchups with Shadow Tag (and good stats and a good movepool give it many good ones), Groudon-Primal's one weakness, strong attacks and great stats make it generally the best offensive rock setter, Necrozma-DM can tank almost any hit with Prism Armour and annoy the hell out of anything non-supereffective, Yveltal serves as a great antimeta mon by beating pdon, the various ghosts and necrozma and generally hitting hard (plus priority is nice), Zygarde is the worst nightmare of slower fatter teams with Thousand Arrows and Rest.

So maybe Ho-Oh should stay where it is, on the same level as the two most popular Arceus formes, maybe it should rise for it's useful role in the current meta. Currently, Disagree.

 

[SaturnZelda]

the problem with Ho-Oh as a defogger isn't a lack of moveslots, it's that Ho-Oh's 50% health cut from rocks means it's not safe to switch in to attacks as often, meaning that you're ability to reliably remove hazards is restricted. Ideally you'd want to remove hazards and then switch Ho-Oh in, not the other way around. Also, Don can also run rock coverage. So I don't think it should rise for this specific reason.

As a whole, Ho-Oh is definitely a very useful special tank. It has a great movepool, good typing (aside from Stealth Rock) and good stats. It can indeed check many of the pokemon in S, A+ and A, giving it a solid use. However, A+ is a very high bar:

rambling

the pokemon currently in A+ are all very difficult to beat: Mega Gengar can choose its matchups with Shadow Tag (and good stats and a good movepool give it many good ones), Groudon-Primal's one weakness, strong attacks and great stats make it generally the best offensive rock setter, Necrozma-DM can tank almost any hit with Prism Armour and annoy the hell out of anything non-supereffective, Yveltal serves as a great antimeta mon by beating pdon, the various ghosts and necrozma and generally hitting hard (plus priority is nice), Zygarde is the worst nightmare of slower fatter teams with Thousand Arrows and Rest.

So maybe Ho-Oh should stay where it is, on the same level as the two most popular Arceus formes, maybe it should rise for it's useful role in the current meta. Currently, Disagree.

The reason Defog is run on Ho-Oh now is because it can switch in WHEN Pokémon sets rocks due to the fact that it switches into most of the common rockers in the tier, not come in after rocks are already up. You’re right, the 50% from rocks really hurts it, but it can Defog rocks right when they are set, and that’s why it’s run.

 

[cromagnet]

Ho-oh from A to A+

In the current meta if you look at the viability rankings ho-oh has the ability to check the most common sets of 8 out of 10 of the mons from A to A+ not including itself. Ive also found recently that because you can now afford to run defog on ho-oh that the rocks issue has really decreased as it easily defogs on the 3 most common rockers in the current meta (ferro, don, dusk mane). In USUM we were also given curse as an option to run which has proven to be extremely effective in terms of acting as a balance breaker. so this leaves ho-oh with 4 viable sets Lo, defensive, curse, and band. Ive also seen Z celebrate not something I would recommend but just something i thought i would mention. The biggest issue facing this mon is that zyg is a hard check to it but curse has the ability to break it if you play smart enough by not putting it into complete form and Zyg does not threaten ho-oh enough to force it out immediately so it is extremely easy to play around.

I'll get replays but I feel that most of this stuff is pretty self explanatory

The biggest issue I have with this is the stealth rock weakness. However, I loved using banded ho oh in SM and defensive is a staple on most of my stall teams. I do think its gotten better in AG in USUM due to dusk mane's prevalence and the addition of curse. However, I am unsure about calling curse ho oh a stall/balance breaker due to its toxic weakness. I get that it can switch out and regenerator helps mitigate the toxic weakness, but it doesnt allow it to stay in and set up for very long, unlike, lets say, Arceus-Dark, which apparently isnt even a good enough stall/balance breaker to be A, with effective immunity to status. The other thing is with defog, which is good in theory, that you have to give up utility. It is tough to put defog in without losing an important move and hampering ho oh. Losing brave bird reduces its offensive presence as it only has 8 pp of attacking moves. Losing toxic reduces its breaking capability. And losing recover is self explanatory and would force ho oh to switch out a lot more. With that being said defog ho oh should never be the sole defogger on a team. Not very many people prep for Ho oh, but I run Zygarde on nearly every team so I dont know of the full potential of Ho oh in USUM. Just some thoughts.
Also,

It can indeed check many of the pokemon in S, A+ and A, giving it a solid use. However, A+ is a very high bar:

did he just say it can check mons in S? As in Ho oh can check mega ray??

 

[Fardin]

The reason Defog is run on Ho-Oh now is because it can switch in WHEN Pokémon sets rocks due to the fact that it switches into most of the common rockers in the tier, not come in after rocks are already up. You’re right, the 50% from rocks really hurts it, but it can Defog rocks right when they are set, and that’s why it’s run.

What if the srock user toxics ho-oh... It will be on a timer after that, and eventually it will have to switch out and rocks will be down. It's not reliable cause of the srock weakness.

e. to the post below: thats fair, but the reason was quite bad so it prob shouldnt be ran

 

[SaturnZelda]

What if the srock user toxics ho-oh... It will be on a timer after that, and eventually it will have to switch out and rocks will be down. It's not reliable cause of the srock weakness.

Yeah, I know. I was just explaining why Defog has started to be run

 

[IronedSandwich]

did he just say it can check mons in S? As in Ho oh can check mega ray??

oops, I meant A+, A and A-. My bad

 

[Pigeons]

Ok I haven't posted much the past while so I'll give my thoughts on all the current noms. I'm glad there were some noms around the higher rankings since talking about crapmons can get tiring, I might make a post in the future about the lower rankings because I still think they could be cleaned up a lot.

Slurpuff: Unranked to D

This is a bit of a tossup for me but currently leaning no. I initially discounted this nom entirely but after seeing it succeed multiple times in high-level seasonal games I did end up giving this some consideration. My main issue with Slurpuff is that it's outclassed by Smeargle as a webs setter in almost every way. Like Slurpuff, Smeargle aims to both set Sticky Webs for its own team while also denying the opponent hazards of their own. Slurpuff's main niches over Smeargle are being able to set webs reliably vs Taunt users (Smeargle can do this in some cases but much less easily) and being able to threaten out the most common Magic Bouncer Mega Sableye. Being reliable against Taunt users is probably Slurpuff's biggest advantage, being able to get webs up against Mega Gengar in particular is huge for webs teams. Smeargle can do this to an extent, but not to the extent Slurpuff can and it cannot set hazards against Mega Gengar. Setting webs against Mega Sableye is a smaller advantage given that stall teams tend to be slow to begin with, but it can be useful for slowing down the occasional Arceus against such teams. Where I think Slurpuff fails to merit and ranking is its general inability to prevent the opponent from defogging. Unlike Smeargle which carries Taunt, Slurpuff's only way of stopping opposing Defogs is Yawn, which is neither an instantaneous stop (the opponent is still able to Defog, meaning you have to set hazards all over again) nor a reliable one in the long run due to sleep turn rng. Because webs teams are so dependant on their hazards being up to pressure opposing teams, this can become a huge issue against balance teams with a reasonable amount of hazard control. Slurpuff has roughly the same amount of success as Smeargle setting hazards against offense, but its lackluster ability to keep its own hazards on make this undeserving of a rank in my opinion.

Arceus-Water: B+ to A-

This is another nom I could go either way on but I'm leaning no at the moment. I prevously nominated Arceus-Water to fall because it performs so poorly against the things it used to be used for (Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh) but with Dusk Mane being as dominant as it is a rise for this could make sense. It's not stretch to say Arceus-Water is the most reliable check to Dusk Mane, which in itself is very nice, but soft-checking a wide range of other threats (Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Mega Rayquaza) make it a very attractive option for balance teams. While it's no longer sufficent as a sole check to these Pokemon, solidifying those matchups is never a harmful thing. I especially like that it is able to check Eruption variants of Primal Groudon, which are indredibly difficult to check with standard Primal Groudon answers like Arceus-Ground and Zygarde. What's holding me back from supporting this nomination is Arceus-Water's 4mss. Because dual status is effectively the only good set now, Arceus-Water can rarely act as a Defogger, which significantly limits its overall utility. The worse issue for me however, is the choice between water stab or Ice Beam. Arceus-Water is still stuck in the same predicament it was before: it has to choose between being able to reliably check Zygarde and chip Mega Rayquaza with Ice Beam or being able to chip Dusk Mane and check Ho-Oh reliably. I don't think the Pokemon in A- share this same problem, most are able to accomplish everything they want to with a single set, while Arceus-Water has to make comprimises. I'm definitely still open to this nomination but I'd like to hear more arguments from both sides.

Mewtwo-Mega-X: C to B-

Definitely supporting this, I previously thought MMX was hopelessly outclassed by Marshadow but the Low Kick / Toxic / Recover / Taunt set introduced by Thimo really changed my mind. On paper this set isn't anything special but in practice it's very threatening and surprisingly easy to support. Zesty definitely did a better job outlining what MMX does than I can so I recommend reading his post, but many of the shortcomings this particular set has (being Mega Gengar bait, being hard checked by Ho-Oh, struggling against Mega Rayquaza) are quite easy to fix with support from Tyranitar, which also sets rocks to help MMX pressure teams more throughly. In my experience MMX has proven to be significantly more usable than the things in C and its overall viability is close to Pokemon in B- like Lunala and regular Mewtwo. They require some support but given that support are able to be extremely threatening. I don't think MMX should rise any higher than this, opportunity cost is certainly big here and there are some matchups where MMX will hardly put it work at all (vs Mega Sableye) but its uniquely threatening characteristics warrant a rise to B- in my opinion.

Arceus: A to A-

I was one of the council members who resisted this dropping for a long time, but given just how harsh the metagame is to it right now I think another drop makes sense. What holds back EKiller at the moment is the prevalance of its checks: Zygarde and defensive Yveltal are extremely good right now and Marshadow is ubiquitous on offense. As a result, EKiller can't perform on teams other than offensive ones with ways of breaking down its checks, and even on offensive teams its performance is going to be somewhat inconcsistent. While EKiller was never a breaker, sweeping with it has become harder than ever not just because of its checks increasing in usage, but because the meta has become more physically defensive as a whole. Support Arceus forms commonly run max defense, and offensive teams more frequently carry Calm Mind Arceus forms like Fairy, so EKiller is effectively forced to get to +4 to fully pressure offensive teams. Extreme Speed isn't as good as it was in terms of priority either, it remains useful for Mega Rayquaza but older targets like GeoXern have decresed in usage while speed-bosting sweepers less bothered by it such as Dusk Mane have increased. The roll EKiller used to play on offensive teams as a general revenge killer has largely been replaced by Choice Scarf Pokemon like Mega Rayquaza, Yveltal, and Xerneas; it is no longer as valuable a team member on the one playstyle it succeeds on. Compared to the rest of the Pokemon in A Arceus clearly falls behind, it's neither as versatile in the sets it uses or the playstyles it's found on when compared to Arceus-Fairy or Arceus-Ground. Because metagame trends have hit it so hard, Arceus is significantly less viable than the other Pokemon in A and should drop as a result.

Ferrothorn: A- to A

As much as I love Ferrothorn I can't support it rising. I agree that it's one of the best Pokemon on balance teams, it's one of the most reliable Primal Kyogre checks and provides Stealth Rock support to boot, not to mention that Leech Seed is incredibly good at wearing teams down. The issue I have with Ferrothorn rising is that it doesn't do a whole lot besides checking Primal Kyogre and setting hazards, for such a relatively one-dimensional Pokemon to rise it would have to do more than it currently does. Being one-dimensional isn't necessarily terrible in and of itself, particularly for a Pokemon like Ferrothorn that accomplishes basically everything it wants to with its standard set. The issue in Ferrothorn's case is that it doesn't really do enough to be ranked alongside defining support Pokemon like Arceus-Fairy and Arceus-Ground and it lacks the flexibility to change that fact. I can see why you'd want to place Ferrothorn with Celesteela, both are Leech Seed spamming Steel-types that don't really change their movesets much, but Celesteela does a lot more than Ferrothorn with its standard set. Celesteela is able to check most Swords Dance Arceus forms (and some Calm Mind ones), Mega Rayquaza sets that lack V-Create and Dusk Mane while Ferrothorn checks Primal Kyogre, Xerneas sets without coverage and some Calm Mind Arceus forms. Ferrothorn is an awesome glue Pokemon for sure, but doesn't excel to the degree that it should rise to A.

Arceus-Dragon: C to B-

I really have little to say about this Pokemon, I've almost never seen it used, I've never used it and I've never really played against it. Zenithial definitely made a good case for this but I'm not really convinced it's any better than the rest of the stuff in C, it doesn't check a ton of stuff and the things it wants to check it doesn't check particularly reliably. Probably going to vote no on this unless I see more convincing usage / arguments.

Ho-Oh: A to A+

This is the nom I'm most torn on at the moment, but it's definitely a good one. I'm currently leaning towards yes, not just to make Chloe happy but because Ho-Oh is in an incredibly good place in the current metagame. Defensive Ho-Oh is one of the best checks to Dusk Mane but checks a ton of other crap as well: Calm Mind Steelceus / Fairyceus / Groundceus, Yveltal, Marshadow and Xerneas are all soft checked by the defensive set. Defog Ho-Oh was mentioned but I don't think people give it enough credit, the 4x Stealth Rock weakness turned me off at first but considering the ease with which Ho-Oh can come in on common Stealth Rock setters like Dusk Mane, Ferrothorn and Primal Groudon (most don't run rock moves at the same time as Stealth Rock), and it can forces these Pokemon out with Fire stab or Toxic preventing them from staying in and setting rocks multiple times while Ho-Oh wastes Defog pp. Defog Ho-Oh isn't ideal, the loss of a moveslot hurts and it can't act as a team's sole Defogger, but it's a very good option as a secondary Defogger. Aside from the defensive set, offensive sets are fairly good at the moment as well, Ho-Oh gets a lot of chances to come in against the average team and it hits fairly hard as well (Choice Band in particular is underrated). Offensive sets aren't the main reason why I think Ho-Oh could rise given that they're fairly easy to stop, but they definitely contribute to Ho-Oh's overall viability. The main reason why I'm not yet sold on a Ho-Oh rise is because its viability at the moment is largely dependant on current metagame trends, and I feel like the conditions of the metagame aren't necessarily stable enough that Ho-Oh's potency will remain high for long. Ho-Oh's 4x rock weakness isn't just significant in terms of a Stealth Rock weakness, it also means Ho-Oh is very east to lure. Most of the things that Ho-Oh wants to check are capable of running rock moves: Dusk Mane can run its Ultra set, Primal Groudon can switch its support set to make room for Rock Tomb, Marshadow can run Rock Tomb, and Xerneas can run Hidden Power Rock to get past Ho-Oh more easily. While these sets aren't the most common at the moment, Ho-Oh's potency means they could increase in the near future. Since the VR is based on the current metagame I do think a Ho-Oh rise is reasonable, but I don't think its viability will remain high forever because of how easily many of the Pokemon it checks can change that matchup.

EDIT: bdov made some more noms, just going to address 1 for now but will do a post on some of the others later

Gothitelle B+ to B

I have to agree that Gothitelle has gotten worse, but I'm still not entirely convinced it should drop. On the one hand the meta has adapted to this a ridiculous amount to the point that I rarely see teams where Gothitelle can trap more than one Pokemon. Calm Mind or Z-moves on support Arceus forms, Bullet Seed on Ferrothorn, Dragon Rail Lugia, increase in Shed Shell Pokemon... there's a lot of ways balance and stall teams combat Gothitelle now, and breaking balance and stall is Gothitelle's main niche. Like bdov mentioned, Pokemon that Gothitelle struggles to trap have greatly improved, namely defensive Yveltal, defensive Ho-Oh (unless the Gothitelle user double switches properly, but even then it's difficult to trap) and Zygarde. Given that the matchup that is supposed to be Gothitelle's strongest has become substantially weaker, it's fair to say Gothitelle has become less viable overall. That's not even mentioning how poorly Gothitelle does against offense, which is still a very dominant playstyle as well. What holds me back from getting behind this nom 100% is how potent Gothitelle is in the right matchups and how little counterplay it has. Despite this, Gothitelle is inherently a matchup-based Pokemon, and if the metagame favors teambuilds that prevent Gothitelle from putting in substantial work then a drop in ranking should probably follow.

 

[Ejthewolfy]

Ok I haven't posted much the past while so I'll give my thoughts on all the current noms. I'm glad there were some noms around the higher rankings since talking about crapmons can get tiring, I might make a post in the future about the lower rankings because I still think they could be cleaned up a lot.

Slurpuff: Unranked to D

This is a bit of a tossup for me but currently leaning no. I initially discounted this nom entirely but after seeing it succeed multiple times in high-level seasonal games I did end up giving this some consideration. My main issue with Slurpuff is that it's outclassed by Smeargle as a webs setter in almost every way. Like Slurpuff, Smeargle aims to both set Sticky Webs for its own team while also denying the opponent hazards of their own. Slurpuff's main niches over Smeargle are being able to set webs reliably vs Taunt users (Smeargle can do this in some cases but much less easily) and being able to threaten out the most common Magic Bouncer Mega Sableye. Being reliable against Taunt users is probably Slurpuff's biggest advantage, being able to get webs up against Mega Gengar in particular is huge for webs teams. Smeargle can do this to an extent, but not to the extent Slurpuff can and it cannot set hazards against Mega Gengar. Setting webs against Mega Sableye is a smaller advantage given that stall teams tend to be slow to begin with, but it can be useful for slowing down the occasional Arceus against such teams. Where I think Slurpuff fails to merit and ranking is its general inability to prevent the opponent from defogging. Unlike Smeargle which carries Taunt, Slurpuff's only way of stopping opposing Defogs is Yawn, which is neither an instantaneous stop (the opponent is still able to Defog, meaning you have to set hazards all over again) nor a reliable one in the long run due to sleep turn rng. Because webs teams are so dependant on their hazards being up to pressure opposing teams, this can become a huge issue against balance teams with a reasonable amount of hazard control. Slurpuff has roughly the same amount of success as Smeargle setting hazards against offense, but its lackluster ability to keep its own hazards on make this undeserving of a rank in my opinion.

Arceus-Water: B+ to A-

This is another nom I could go either way on but I'm leaning no at the moment. I prevously nominated Arceus-Water to fall because it performs so poorly against the things it used to be used for (Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh) but with Dusk Mane being as dominant as it is a rise for this could make sense. It's not stretch to say Arceus-Water is the most reliable check to Dusk Mane, which in itself is very nice, but soft-checking a wide range of other threats (Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, Mega Rayquaza) make it a very attractive option for balance teams. While it's no longer sufficent as a sole check to these Pokemon, solidifying those matchups is never a harmful thing. I especially like that it is able to check Eruption variants of Primal Groudon, which are indredibly difficult to check with standard Primal Groudon answers like Arceus-Ground and Zygarde. What's holding me back from supporting this nomination is Arceus-Water's 4mss. Because dual status is effectively the only good set now, Arceus-Water can rarely act as a Defogger, which significantly limits its overall utility. The worse issue for me however, is the choice between water stab or Ice Beam. Arceus-Water is still stuck in the same predicament it was before: it has to choose between being able to reliably check Zygarde and chip Mega Rayquaza with Ice Beam or being able to chip Dusk Mane and check Ho-Oh reliably. I don't think the Pokemon in A- share this same problem, most are able to accomplish everything they want to with a single set, while Arceus-Water has to make comprimises. I'm definitely still open to this nomination but I'd like to hear more arguments from both sides.

Mewtwo-Mega-X: C to B-

Definitely supporting this, I previously thought MMX was hopelessly outclassed by Marshadow but the Low Kick / Toxic / Recover / Taunt set introduced by Thimo really changed my mind. On paper this set isn't anything special but in practice it's very threatening and surprisingly easy to support. Zesty definitely did a better job outlining what MMX does than I can so I recommend reading his post, but many of the shortcomings this particular set has (being Mega Gengar bait, being hard checked by Ho-Oh, struggling against Mega Rayquaza) are quite easy to fix with support from Tyranitar, which also sets rocks to help MMX pressure teams more throughly. In my experience MMX has proven to be significantly more usable than the things in C and its overall viability is close to Pokemon in B- like Lunala and regular Mewtwo. They require some support but given that support are able to be extremely threatening. I don't think MMX should rise any higher than this, opportunity cost is certainly big here and there are some matchups where MMX will hardly put it work at all (vs Mega Sableye) but its uniquely threatening characteristics warrant a rise to B- in my opinion.

Arceus: A to A-

I was one of the council members who resisted this dropping for a long time, but given just how harsh the metagame is to it right now I think another drop makes sense. What holds back EKiller at the moment is the prevalance of its checks: Zygarde and defensive Yveltal are extremely good right now and Marshadow is ubiquitous on offense. As a result, EKiller can't perform on teams other than offensive ones with ways of breaking down its checks, and even on offensive teams its performance is going to be somewhat inconcsistent. While EKiller was never a breaker, sweeping with it has become harder than ever not just because of its checks increasing in usage, but because the meta has become more physically defensive as a whole. Support Arceus forms commonly run max defense, and offensive teams more frequently carry Calm Mind Arceus forms like Fairy, so EKiller is effectively forced to get to +4 to fully pressure offensive teams. Extreme Speed isn't as good as it was in terms of priority either, it remains useful for Mega Rayquaza but older targets like GeoXern have decresed in usage while speed-bosting sweepers less bothered by it such as Dusk Mane have increased. The roll EKiller used to play on offensive teams as a general revenge killer has largely been replaced by Choice Scarf Pokemon like Mega Rayquaza, Yveltal, and Xerneas; it is no longer as valuable a team member on the one playstyle it succeeds on. Compared to the rest of the Pokemon in A Arceus clearly falls behind, it's neither as versatile in the sets it uses or the playstyles it's found on when compared to Arceus-Fairy or Arceus-Ground. Because metagame trends have hit it so hard, Arceus is significantly less viable than the other Pokemon in A and should drop as a result.

Ferrothorn: A- to A

As much as I love Ferrothorn I can't support it rising. I agree that it's one of the best Pokemon on balance teams, it's one of the most reliable Primal Kyogre checks and provides Stealth Rock support to boot, not to mention that Leech Seed is incredibly good at wearing teams down. The issue I have with Ferrothorn rising is that it doesn't do a whole lot besides checking Primal Kyogre and setting hazards, for such a relatively one-dimensional Pokemon to rise it would have to do more than it currently does. Being one-dimensional isn't necessarily terrible in and of itself, particularly for a Pokemon like Ferrothorn that accomplishes basically everything it wants to with its standard set. The issue in Ferrothorn's case is that it doesn't really do enough to be ranked alongside defining support Pokemon like Arceus-Fairy and Arceus-Ground and it lacks the flexibility to change that fact. I can see why you'd want to place Ferrothorn with Celesteela, both are Leech Seed spamming Steel-types that don't really change their movesets much, but Celesteela does a lot more than Ferrothorn with its standard set. Celesteela is able to check most Swords Dance Arceus forms (and some Calm Mind ones), Mega Rayquaza sets that lack V-Create and Dusk Mane while Ferrothorn checks Primal Kyogre, Xerneas sets without coverage and some Calm Mind Arceus forms. Ferrothorn is an awesome glue Pokemon for sure, but doesn't excel to the degree that it should rise to A.

Arceus-Dragon: C to B-

I really have little to say about this Pokemon, I've almost never seen it used, I've never used it and I've never really played against it. Zenithial definitely made a good case for this but I'm not really convinced it's any better than the rest of the stuff in C, it doesn't check a ton of stuff and the things it wants to check it doesn't check particularly reliably. Probably going to vote no on this unless I see more convincing usage / arguments.

Ho-Oh: A to A+

This is the nom I'm most torn on at the moment, but it's definitely a good one. I'm currently leaning towards yes, not just to make Chloe happy but because Ho-Oh is in an incredibly good place in the current metagame. Defensive Ho-Oh is one of the best checks to Dusk Mane but checks a ton of other crap as well: Calm Mind Steelceus / Fairyceus / Groundceus, Yveltal, Marshadow and Xerneas are all soft checked by the defensive set. Defog Ho-Oh was mentioned but I don't think people give it enough credit, the 4x Stealth Rock weakness turned me off at first but considering the ease with which Ho-Oh can come in on common Stealth Rock setters like Dusk Mane, Ferrothorn and Primal Groudon (most don't run rock moves at the same time as Stealth Rock), and it can forces these Pokemon out with Fire stab or Toxic preventing them from staying in and setting rocks multiple times while Ho-Oh wastes Defog pp. Defog Ho-Oh isn't ideal, the loss of a moveslot hurts and it can't act as a team's sole Defogger, but it's a very good option as a secondary Defogger. Aside from the defensive set, offensive sets are fairly good at the moment as well, Ho-Oh gets a lot of chances to come in against the average team and it hits fairly hard as well (Choice Band in particular is underrated). Offensive sets aren't the main reason why I think Ho-Oh could rise given that they're fairly easy to stop, but they definitely contribute to Ho-Oh's overall viability. The main reason why I'm not yet sold on a Ho-Oh rise is because its viability at the moment is largely dependant on current metagame trends, and I feel like the conditions of the metagame aren't necessarily stable enough that Ho-Oh's potency will remain high for long. Ho-Oh's 4x rock weakness isn't just significant in terms of a Stealth Rock weakness, it also means Ho-Oh is very east to lure. Most of the things that Ho-Oh wants to check are capable of running rock moves: Dusk Mane can run its Ultra set, Primal Groudon can switch its support set to make room for Rock Tomb, Marshadow can run Rock Tomb, and Xerneas can run Hidden Power Rock to get past Ho-Oh more easily. While these sets aren't the most common at the moment, Ho-Oh's potency means they could increase in the near future. Since the VR is based on the current metagame I do think a Ho-Oh rise is reasonable, but I don't think its viability will remain high forever because of how easily many of the Pokemon it checks can change that matchup.

I love everything that u have put here besides ho-oh. I think it does have good sets imo orb is best maybe i just love it to much. And i do realize it has other good sets like band to hit like a truck and lefties to tank but the rock weakness and the whole idea of defog still gets me. Maybe I am just a complete idiot but I just really think ho-oh almost always needs all its moves and really imo any mon that takes 50% from rocks dont deserve it. And just like zesty said if it come in when another mon is defogging it may just get toxiced and be forced out and rocks may be up anyway. Also spikes i find not overly common which is the main thing i see it defogging anyway. So I find it really good but still held back by rocks and just find defog not that helpful in its viability. So I think it should stay at A. But other then this ho-oh I really am liking mostly everything else you said about the other mons I was kinda eh on mewtwo but I think u have made it clear that it is a good mon that can be a nice bulky piviot and it also can do a lot of damage.

 

[bdov]

Making some noms that i feel most people get, but are too lazy to post themselves. mainly just updating the lower ranks

Gothitelle from B+ to B. Goth hasn't seen very much usage as of late. its uses have dropped significantly thanks to the rise of darkceus, as well as most teams starting to prep for it naturally. goth is also dead weight once it does its job, and if teams dont have any mons that it can successfully trap, its useless from team preview. I still think its decent, but not as deserving of this rank as it once was.

Vivilion from D to C. Vivilion has become a giant threat on webs teams. Its set may be predictable, but its also extremely hard to beat when a solid player is utilizing it. and if it does get the set up it wants. it can sweep any team. i think it deserves a bit more credit.

Muk-Alola from D to Unranked. One of the mons that is very outdated. no reason why it should be ranked anymore and i dont think i need reasoning for this.

Diancie-Mega from D to unranked. Out classed by every mega, speed tier isnt fantastic, and very frail. no sets can work in this current meta that would make it worth using.

Scizor-Mega from D to unranked. In my opinion just one of those set up fodder mons, unless you are running offensive, which then loses to everything anyway. ho-oh is starting to be used more as well, making this mon simply impossible to use.

Basically all the updates i have for now. i think more can come in the future but i believe most will agree with me on these. They are outdated, and need to be fixed.

 

[MZ]

Ferro's good but just not quite that good, I don't rly have anything else to say to the nom. Pls let's not rank it next to Ho-Oh.

In a similar vein of mons that are still quite good but don't deserved to be ranked quite so high, Yveltal A+ to A. The other 4 mons in A+ are really, really good. As in I've seen people make cases that they should be S rank good (I disagree with those but they're still totally reasonable to argue which speaks to how good they are). Yveltal is... not quite so meta defining. It's got a few good sets but none really make it super unpredictable or change how you stop it, its check are common and decently reliable, and none of the sets quite shine like how the rest of the rank does. It just really comes down to... well being really good but not quite so good. If the VR was in any other state I'd say yeah, Yveltal is an A+ mon for sure. But Zygarde-Complete, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Primal Groudon, and Mega Gengar (really hitting every form mechanic here e.e) are just such stupidly good mons that I have no qualms saying Yveltal needs to go back to the minor leagues with Ho-Oh and Groundceus.

 

[HunterStorm]

So before I make my first nom in USM, I want there to be a context as to why these noms are important, and more importantly, why the AGVR should take these noms very seriously. I know some of these noms have been dismissed rather ridiculously in the past. I also know that the current scheme of having Mega-Rayquaza be the sole S rank mon is an extremely popular notion. However, there are some grave inconsistencies in the practicality of mons in the VR as opposed to their theoretical potential. This is different from the viability ranking of Primal Groudon as S+ in Ubers; a mon that witnesses almost 90% usage in ladder and tour games alike. Mega-Rayquaza, in spite of being the sole S rank mon and implying that it is the very best that AG has to offer, does not see nearly the same usage, and contrary to popular belief, does not dominate the AG meta in a way as to justify it being the only S rank mon.

Also, this post is not about me seeking to demote Mray from its S rank. I am not questioning its merits or the impact it has on AG teambuilding. I firmly believe Mega-Rayquaza is the primary reason why Stall is not as viable in AG as it is in Ubers. However, there is more to assess in the present meta than simply choosing mons that are hard to check or counter. Mega-Rayquaza, for all purposes of practicality, does not dominate the meta enough to warrant it being the only mon in the top rank of the AGVR.

The meta has become increasingly playstyle based, which results in a lot of the matches being matchup reliant. Even with the most well-built, noob-proof teams, you will find yourself losing to a particular playstyle. This concept has greatly diminished some previously common AG strategies from their 'elite' status, and you will likely find people preparing according to the opponent that they face, and in specific, a concept called 'Counter-Playstyling'. I will discuss this in detail in the nominations ahead.

Another factor that has been ignored entirely in some of the arguments is how the S rank has not always been reserved solely for the single best mon in the meta, and rather, is reserved for meta-defining mons with a long list of virtues . As soon as someone argues for any mon besides Mega-Rayquaza being S, it somehow leads to a comparison between that mon and Mega-Rayquaza, and is dismissed because 'it does not have the same impact as Mray'. This very argument could have been made for Primal-Groudon or Xerneas in generation 6, when both of them were S rank. Or, to push it a bit further, even for Arceus/Darkrai. It is further complemented by the fact that there were at least 10 different reliable checks for Normalceus/Xerneas in Generation 6. However, the idea of Normalceus being anything but S rank in Gen 6 was so bizarre, it never even got nominated to be anything but S.

The explanation for this is simple - Normalceus had simply too great an impact on generation 6 for it to not be S. It was kept entirely separate from the fact that Mega-Rayquaza is far more potent and harder to check than Normalceus is. The argument was the same for Primal-Groudon or Xerneas. It wasn't about whether or not they were as big an influence on the meta as Mega-Rayquaza, but, whether or not they were a big enough influence for them to be S rank.

I feel like I've given a detailed context here as to what I'm trying to say. But in case you're reading too much between the lines and entirely for the sake of brevity, this post is not seeking a demotion for Mega-Rayquaza, but just warranting the fact that it should not be the only S rank mon in Anything Goes.

Now, on to the merits of my nominations

Zygarde Complete - A+ to S

The single-best counter-playstyling mon in the game, bar none. Zygarde is one of the hottest mons in the metagame right now, thanks to the extremely efficient DD Dtail Sub set which is one of most difficult mons to check once it sets up. This is coupled by the fact that Zygarde sets up on a plethora of the metagame while tanking a majority of it simultaneously. Additionally, the HP boost after its complete form transformation is massive for a DD-Sub setter. Lastly, it can almost single-handedly dominate passive matchups with dtail phazing and limited hazard support.
Furthermore, there are several other relevant sets this mon can carry, such as Groundium Z DD, haze defensive wall, Glare Coil Zygarde and even other seemingly gimmicky, yet effective sets like Earth Plate/Metronome DD.

The DD Dtail Sub set is checked almost exclusively by bulky fairies like Arc-Fairy/Clefable/Def Xern, which are some of the most passive in the meta at the moment. All you require here is Mgar support and these checks fall quick; which isn't to say that Mgar is an absolute necessity for Zygarde to function. You'll note that several of the replays below are of Zygarde teams minus Mgar, and Zygarde still comfortably sweeps. Another factor left out by people is it only takes Zygarde roughly 18% damage in subbing, hitting TA and switching out (including rocks damage on the switch back in) after lefties recovery, where TA is going to guarantee at least 30% on even a bulky fairy switching in (42%) if rocks on. Not to mention the obvious, but the lack of a fairy subjects teams to infinite dd-sub-dtail spamming plus slow recovery by Zygarde, instances of which will be shown in the replays below.

The inclusion of Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in USM as a top tier threat further warrants Zygarde's usage, given its exquisite synergy with Dusk-Mane. These two mons (with an added perk of adding Mgar) form one of the best offensive cores in the game right now, and with limited opportunity cost. Zygarde, on its own, has almost no opportunity cost for the team to suffer. The argument that it requires heavy support just strictly is not true, and anyone who has played around Zygarde would acknowledge that it isn't extremely difficult to cover its checks.

Now, here's a bunch of replays for you to munch on

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-709753129
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-700969631
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-716025324 ssnl pigeons v purple
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-716000915 ssnl donno v silent mobius
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-601435459 fardin v Catalystic OMPL
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-711977382 (Ubers, but AG like MU)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-711900985 ^
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-703971656
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-714247944
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoes-701930813

I've spoken about the viability of the Z set and defense sets excessively in the past in this very thread, including replays. Feel free to check them out.

Mega-Gengar - A+ to S

This argument has been made several times in the past by a lot of people, and the merits have not changed in recent times. If anything, a shift of the meta to balance has boosted Mgar's viability several-fold. Mega-Gengar possesses one of the best abilities in the metagame coupled with some meta-defining sets, in specific, its potential to chip apart stall bit by bit. Furthermore, it is no deadweight vs offense like other trappers, and is one of the best late-game sweepers this meta has to offer. A notable mention to the HypnoGar set that is capable of pulling games out of no where in a last-resort scenario. The hex set offers immense potential for status abusers to function, whereas wisp + 3 attacks is amazing on hazardstack. While it is never exactly viewed as one, Mgar is capable of functioning very well as a support mon for setup sweepers if necessary. While it isn't used laboriously in AG, perish trap is another viable set given how common supportceus has become. Mgar is the foundation of a lot of playstyles being relevant in AG, and dictates teambuilding spreading across different playstyles. I intended for this post to be much longer than it is, but I realise that everything that can be said about this mon's merits has already been said in several posts. Mgar's push to S has been a long time coming, and it has never seen a better level of viability as it does in the present metagame.

 

[Chloe]

Viability update!

Mega Gengar | A+ to S
Ho-Oh | A to A+
Arceus | A to A-
Arceus-Water | B+ to A-
Gothitelle | B+ to B
Mega Mewtwo X | C to B-
Vivillon | D to C
Mega Diancie | D to Unranked

Rejected Nominations

Zygarde-Complete | A+ to S | 0%
Yveltal | A+ to A | 40%
Ferrothorn | A- to A | 0%
Arceus-Dragon | C to B- | 20%
Muk-Alola | D to UR | 40%
Scizor-Mega | D to UR | 40%
Slurpuff | Unranked to D | 0%
Vileplume | Unranked to D | 0%

Votes

Key: Megazard, Pigeons, Catalystic, Chloe, Purple

Zygarde-Complete A+ to S: abstain, no, no, no, no
Mega Gengar A+ to S: no, yes, yes, no, yes
Ho-Oh A to A+: yes, yes, yes, LOL HOW AM I THE ONE SAYING NO, yes
Yveltal A+ to A: yes, yes, no, no, no
Ferrothorn A- to A: no, no, no, no, no
Arceus A to A-: no, yes, yes, no, yes
Arceus-Water B+ to A-: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
Gothitelle B+ to B: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
MMX C to B-: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
Arceus-Dragon C to B-: no, no, no, no, yes
Vivillon D to C: no, I hate myself but yeah, ew, yes, yes
Muk-Alola D to UR: no, yes, no, no, yes
Diancie-Mega D to UR: yes, yes, yes, yes, yes
Scizor-Mega D to UR: yes, yes, no, no, no
Slurpuff UR to D: no, no, no, no, no
Vileplume UR to D: no, no, no, no, no

A lot of high VR noms this time around. Most of the noms were agreed upon virtually unanimously; however, Yveltal, Mega Gengar and Alolan Muk were quite close. Things like Zygarde to S and Ferro to A were 100% no, understandably. If there's any confusion, you want more clarification or you feel some nominations deserved to go through but didn't, feel free to discuss this in the room or on the thread.

 

[Fardin]

could i know why Zygarde nom was a 100% no, because im not understanding

 

[cromagnet]

Honestly, I think the best way to include MGar into S is to divide it up S- S and S+ as all the other ranks are. I'm not opposed to having MGar is S, I just don't think its the same rank as Ray.

 

[Kate]

Honestly I think the best thing to do is nom Darkceus for A rank. If mgar is S, darkceus is A. in my humble opinion

 

[Chloe]

could i know why Zygarde nom was a 100% no, because im not understanding

Basically, four people voted. All four of them voted no, hence 100% no.

To answer your question seriously, while I can't speak for the others, Zygarde's extreme potency and the opinion that its a top tier Pokémon was somewhat non-existent before a few weeks ago. Hunter's return catalysed people into realising how great it actually is. So my opinion of it is that while it is potentially an S-rank Pokémon, this opinion hasn't been held long enough to have traction. If someone brought up Zygarde for S four weeks ago, they would've been laughed at. Yet this argument is a slippery slope, as we're judging the current metagame not the metagame as of four weeks ago, so may I continue with the next paragraph:

I'm personally of the opinion that Zygarde is on the barrier of S and A+, and I can't give you an accurate justification for why it should pertain to either of those subranks. I'm more comfortable with leaving it at A+ for the time being however, as these opinions of it are fairly new and haven't fully been developed. The community is split on whether this Pokémon should be S or not, hell I'd even be comfortable giving it S- at the moment, but S just seems like way too much.

If I had to choose one of the two options I'd definitely choose A+. Is it an amazing Pokémon? Yes. I don't really want to get into details of why exactly it walls x y z, performs x y z, lack of x, y, z makes it excel at x, y and z; but I personally strongly believe that its viability is a lot more comparable to Pokémon like Dusk Mane Necrozma and Primal Groudon than Pokémon like Mega Rayquaza. I'd definitely want to see a lot more of it before supporting a move to S.

But before I end this post, may I say that I find Ho-Oh being the same rank as Zygarde somewhat offensive. I disagree with it extensively. Ho-Oh is just not that good. Whether you want to lower Yveltal to A is a different story; raising Ho-Oh to A+ is obscure to me. Sure you can argue that with access to Defog it can now prevent Stealth Rock set-up, but the prevalence of Pokémon like Zygarde and increasing rarity of Calm Mind Arceus formes just make this new access redundant. It in general, performs a lot less in a match than it did previously. It's still a great Pokémon but A+ just rubs me the wrong way.

Additionally, I don't care at all about whether Mega Gengar is S or A+, but I did vote against both it and Zygarde. If I was to rank one higher than the other, Zygarde would be on top easily.

Anyway, hope I've clarified my stance on why I voted no.

 

[Fardin]

Basically, four people voted. All four of them voted no, hence 100% no.

To answer your question seriously, while I can't speak for the others, Zygarde's extreme potency and the opinion that its a top tier Pokémon was somewhat non-existent before a few weeks ago. Hunter's return catalysed people into realising how great it actually is. So my opinion of it is that while it is potentially an S-rank Pokémon, this opinion hasn't been held long enough to have traction. If someone brought up Zygarde for S four weeks ago, they would've been laughed at. Yet this argument is a slippery slope, as we're judging the current metagame not the metagame as of four weeks ago, so may I continue with the next paragraph:

I'm personally of the opinion that Zygarde is on the barrier of S and A+, and I can't give you an accurate justification for why it should pertain to either of those subranks. I'm more comfortable with leaving it at A+ for the time being however, as these opinions of it are fairly new and haven't fully been developed. The community is split on whether this Pokémon should be S or not, hell I'd even be comfortable giving it S- at the moment, but S just seems like way too much.

If I had to choose one of the two options I'd definitely choose A+. Is it an amazing Pokémon? Yes. I don't really want to get into details of why exactly it walls x y z, performs x y z, lack of x, y, z makes it excel at x, y and z; but I personally strongly believe that its viability is a lot more comparable to Pokémon like Dusk Mane Necrozma and Primal Groudon than Pokémon like Mega Rayquaza. I'd definitely want to see a lot more of it before supporting a move to S.

But before I end this post, may I say that I find Ho-Oh being the same rank as Zygarde somewhat offensive. I disagree with it extensively. Ho-Oh is just not that good. Whether you want to lower Yveltal to A is a different story; raising Ho-Oh to A+ is obscure to me. Sure you can argue that with access to Defog it can now prevent Stealth Rock set-up, but the prevalence of Pokémon like Zygarde and increasing rarity of Calm Mind Arceus formes just make this new access redundant. It in general, performs a lot less in a match than it did previously. It's still a great Pokémon but A+ just rubs me the wrong way.

Additionally, I don't care at all about whether Mega Gengar is S or A+, but I did vote against both it and Zygarde. If I was to rank one higher than the other, Zygarde would be on top easily.

Anyway, hope I've clarified my stance on why I voted no.

That's fair but I wanted to hear some actual reasons instead of stuff like it's too early and ur own opinion with no explanation

 

[Ejthewolfy]

I think the council needs to vote on to divide S rank because then and only then it will truly show if we think of gar just as powerful as ray or just a mon that is better then all the A+ mons. Also the same thing can be said about zygarde. IMO zygarde should be S- and keep gar where it is. So just let me know your guys thoughts. Just trying to be a bit open minded. But Also I really do think its the only way to solve the issues here.

 

[Kate]

I think while zygarde is good, its def not better than, say, dusk mane. Honestly, thats just my opinion, but if gar is in S, this is prob gonna open the floodgates for more mons to be added. Therefore, S rank needs to be divided up NOW before more controversy comes from it.

 

[Tic-Tac-Toe Guru]

I'd nominate Golduck for any rank but I know anything I do or say will just get shut down without question.

 

[DoW]

I'm in favour of keeping S rank the way it is. There is a (relatively) large number of very influential pokemon, and they are influential to varying degrees; however, I think really this is what A rank is for.
I like seeing S-rank as being a step above the huge A-rank mons, and I think splitting it up will only cause S to become S+, and S and S- to become A+ and A, with this then forcing everything else to be a little more spread out and slightly moved up. That's not a particularly bad thing to happen, but I don't really see any need for that sort of thing. From what I can see we have a perfectly good ranking system, and we'd be mixing it up for no particularly good reason.

 

[Chloe]

That's fair but I wanted to hear some actual reasons instead of stuff like it's too early and ur own opinion with no explanation

Fair enough. I'd much rather have someone else answer from the council answer that if possible, as I don't feel as if I'm the best person to speak about it, but I'll provide a somewhat decent response just in case no one else wants to. Before I start though, may I add though that I do think some of the fault here is that both sides have a different opinion on what an S-rank Pokémon really is. What do we have to define it at the moment? There's no rank definitions, and every argument for its placement is just subjective and comparative to Pokémon that are already in that rank. Saying a Pokémon is "The single-best counter-playstyling mon in the game" means nothing, saying it's "one of most difficult mons to check once it sets up." doesn't mean S. If you add up all the points in Hunter's post, it doesn't matter what you actually consider a sufficient amount of positive factors to deem it S, it's still all incredibly subjective. I do believe that comparing it to Mega Rayquaza is still farfetched, but I don't need it to be better than or equal to Mega Rayquaza to justify that rank. If you think back to Generation 6, we had five Pokémon in S, and they clearly weren't all up to the same standard. Why don't we do that now? Because Mega Rayquaza just seems a large margin better than all the other threats. Zygarde has somewhat reliable answers in Pokémon like Support Fairy Arceus, whereas Mega Rayquaza's answers are all dependant on the set. Zygarde clearly has other things going for it, but when considering that distinction of what Mega Rayquaza can do, it is really quite evident why initially believing that Zygarde shouldn't really make the cut is a completely viable option.

Allow me to be pedantic for a moment though:
"The single-best counter-playstyling mon in the game, bar none." - This is redundant and somewhat non-sensical. Dusk Mane Necrozma and Primal Groudon are each very difficult if not more difficult for each playstyle to deal with efficiently. If you could elaborate on what you mean necessarily if it differs from my interpretation that would be great.
"Zygarde is one of the hottest mons in the metagame right now" - yea, that's why it's in A+, one of the hottest doesn't really mean anything either.
"thanks to the extremely efficient DD Dtail Sub set which is one of most difficult mons to check once it sets up." - but this is just untrue, there are multiple common support Arceus formes that commonly check it, and the Fairy-types you mention in a later paragraph all deal with it without much effort.
"This is coupled by the fact that Zygarde sets up on a plethora of the metagame while tanking a majority of it simultaneously." - I do agree with this point, but it would be unfair of me to consider Dusk Mane Necrozma or Primal Groudon considerably worse at this feat. I will however admit that this one sentence in your post is perfectly valid.
"Additionally, the HP boost after its complete form transformation is massive for a DD-Sub setter." - I couldn't agree more, but this is just saying it aids the set, rather than it boosts the viability of the mon in any capacity. We all know about the HP boost, everything you've listed so far makes me believe it's better suited for A+ than A, but I held this mindset already.
"Lastly, it can almost single-handedly dominate passive matchups with dtail phazing and limited hazard support." - except no, they all have a support Fairy or Ground Arceus that can deal with you easily. I'll elaborate more on Gengar removing this weakness later but if you consider cores like Marshadow + Gothitelle, they don't have a collection of passive checks either. I could say more but you virtually undo this "single-handedly" argument in the second paragraph.
"Furthermore, there are several other relevant sets this mon can carry, such as Groundium Z DD, haze defensive wall, Glare Coil Zygarde and even other seemingly gimmicky, yet effective sets like Earth Plate/Metronome DD." - Versatility is a great thing for an A+ rank Pokémon to have, not that I'm saying all of them have it to the same degree as Zygarde does (bar Primal Groudon), but you have to consider how versatile you're actually being with these sets. There are arguably two sets, offensive DD and defensive. Just because you can add another move doesn't make it amazingly versatile. You consider Primal Groudon's ability to run Rock Polish Mixed, Offensive SD, Eruption Offensive, Basic Support and a myriad of others it's easy to see why Zygarde's "versatility" is overhyped substantially.
These points don't really add anything to your argument and are more or less just empty statements.

May I address another point in the post. Fairy Arceus walls most Zygarde sets easily. Hunter, you state that you require Mega Gengar to make Zygarde amazing, and I will forfeit the point that if you give it this support it truly is almost as amazing as you make it out to be; however, I'm not supporting a Pokémon moving to S based on how it interacts with a certain mega, even often limiting your capabilities on your team. I'm not even solely concerned about the limitations, if you had to forfeit the point that it requires Gengar to be as potent as it is, then it's not an S-rank Pokémon in my mind. If you require another Pokémon to be that potent, then no, that's ridiculous. And no I am not stating that it requires Gengar to be a great Pokémon. I'm stating that it needs Gengar to be considered as viable as the standard that should be set for an S-rank Pokémon. It makes me question why you nominated Gengar in the same post as well. What that indicates to me is that you believe the core of Zygarde and Gengar is the best in the game, and perhaps it is, but these two Pokemon relying on each other doesn't make me think either should be S-rank (however I'm content with your other reasons for Gengar). Your entire second paragaph rather directly focuses solely on the fact that they comprise the best core in the metagame.

You list another A+ rank threat in your final paragaph. This doesn't sit well with me as an argument. Just because these A+ mons have great synergy together it doesn't mean any of them should be S. This argument is sloppy, and just builds on to the above point. You can keep stating it pairs well with things, but that doesn't make it that much better as a Pokémon. I do agree that it doesn't require heavy support, but that's literally why it's able to justify an A+ ranking.

Let me conclude with what I said last time. "I'm personally of the opinion that Zygarde is on the barrier of S and A+, and I can't give you an accurate justification for why it should pertain to either of those subranks." We have no accurate medium to judge whether a Pokémon should be S or A+. The same argument came up last time when we were discussing Marshadow's viability and a fair few of you disagreed with me. We need a better more objective way to judge whether a Pokémon is defined by a rank of S or A+ or whatever. These ranks feel so arbitrary and I don't feel comfortable arguing against a Pokémon or stating what justifies S or A+ when I don't have an accurate way to determine what does justify that rank. Don't get me wrong, I agree with everything I've said here, but there's only so much I can really argue without knowing exactly what I'm fighting for.

I'd nominate Golduck for any rank but I know anything I do or say will just get shut down without question.

Nominate it. If you give us good reasons and tell us why it doesn't die on switchin to the two things it supposedly beats, then I'm not going to use my bias against you as a reason not to support it.