Gyarados is a Douche [[Porygon 2 Discussion]] P-Z sucks

Age of Kings

of the Ash Legion
is a Forum Moderator Alumnus
EDIT: Added damage calcs for Obi's Hippo and Outrage Garchomp.

Please don't flame me about either statement until you have read this entirely. Which is unlikely, as this is long and droning, unlike my warstories. Sorry guys, this is purely educational/devotional. ;_; Actually, don't flame unintelligently, because I put a lot of time and effort into this.

But I still think Gyarados is a douche. #1 lead. #5 overall. Both on Shoddy. Not difficult to get in-game either. Runs stupid, predictable sets. Or not.

What if I told you that there was a Pokemon lying under the surface, that countered all of Gyarados' sets, no matter what it ran? Yes, even Gyarados has easy counters, not unlike Ice Shard for Dragons and Gliscor for Heracross. Do you like sushi or seafood, and would you like that steak medium rare or well-done?
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Awww, look at the second one jumping up and down! See, Porygon2, since the days of G/S/C, have been providing excellent services for all kinds of needs.

What fucking pisses me off is that there exists a number of people here and on Shoddy who do not know the difference between P-2 and P-Z in spite of this excellent service. P-Z, piss off, you're a new kid on the block who enjoys flaunting your stupid Adaptibility Hyper Beam.

Ok, I get that out of my system. Public ranting is good for the soul.

Let's begin with P-2's base stats:

Hit Points: 85
Attack: 80
Defense: 90
Special Attack: 105
Special Defense: 95
Speed: 60

Granted, P-2 is not a tank, but 85/90/95 seems quite decent to me, along with excellent typing. Base 60 Speed is a let-down, even Tyranitar outspeeds it by one measly point. Attack isn't terrible either, it's the same base as Dugtrio, Marowak without Thick Club, and Skarmory. But I don't find Speed much of a factor with decent defenses and SA, and that's just looking at its stats.

Its movepool. Dear lord, this is where P-2 overcomes neither being a speedy sweeper nor a huge tank, even without its ability (covered later).

Notable Physical Attacks:
Iron Tail
Return
Aerial Ace
Thief

Meh. They can be used as nasty surprises, but nowhere near as good as its support and special options.

Notable Special Attacks:
Signal Beam
Discharge
Tri Attack
Ice Beam
Blizzard
Solarbeam
Thunderbolt
Thunder
Psychic
Shadow Ball

Blizzard, Thunder, and Solarbeam are included on this list to show how P-2 even works in weather teams! The rest....well, just look at it.

Notable Support/Other Moves:
Conversions 1+2
Agility
Recover
Magnet Rise
Recycle
Lock-On
Toxic
Sunny Day
Protect
Rain Dance
Thunder Wave
Psych-Up
Substitute
Trick Room

Yes. A shame P-2 doesn't get BP---it would be so broken. The Conversions are novelty, but they can piss off an opponent when used correctly. In the creative movesets thread, I suggested a Recycle/Lum Berry P-2 set, with Recover this means a bunch of recovery. Psych-Up further pisses off the opponent. The rest speaks for itself.

The final topic before I go on to sets---P-2 has several huge things over its cousin P-Z, and one of them is Trace. Gardevoir, while faster and has better special stats, cannot claim to take hits on both sides of the spectrum. And oh! It's PSYCHIC. Meaning it fears both physical U-turn and Pursuit! Aha. It can't counter the same things P-2 can kill. It can't utilize about half of its movepool as P-2 can.

SETS
Another lecture! While P-2's movepool is quite good, several things remain the same---Discharge/Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Recover. The last slot is usually status or set up. We're going to use Jumpy as our model. :'D

For example:
(Presumed Standard)
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@ Lum Berry
Bold/Relaxed
[[228 HP/136 Def/144 SA]]

Thunderbolt/Discharge
Ice Beam
Recover
Toxic/Thunder Wave

READ ABOUT THE EV'S. Another example demonstrating P-2's versatility---it is intensely difficult to use one all-purpose spread. What you want depends on your team. Do you want a mixed wall? Physical? Special? Set-up? Wall-killer? All of these factors ultimately depend on you and what you want P-2's purpose to be.

No offense intended for whoever wrote the P-2 analysis---I do not recommend it for the starting P-2 user, as the only set listed is a presumed special sweeper, which is normally...novelty. Perhaps I shall write my own?

Now, for the set above. If you go with Discharge, run Toxic at all times. Really, the status depends on tier--in BL, run Toxic for Lanturn which walls Bolt-beam, and in OU, run T-wave for Magnezone. Due to Trace, neither can particularily do much to you---you're immune to one of Lanturn's STABs and Magnet Pull traps in Magnezone for the status, then switch out.

Again, the set mentioned above is the presumed standard. I recommend running P-2 as a starter, and this is where the douche Gyarados gets beaten down. Lum Berry absorbs status, so helpful on something like P-2, it isn't funny. Leftovers aren't needed as much due to Recover.

As mentioned above, like with the EVs, the set you run is entirely dependent on P-2's purpose in the team and your preference.

OU, BOW DOWN.
In order to prevent me from writing a 300-page novel, and due to better experience, I will not mention anything in BL. Because P-2 is awesome. But how would P-2 fare in OU, other than Gyarados? Read on, read on. All calculations are from the spread above posted in the P-2 analysis unless otherwise stated. Also, please read calculations carefully, as I will use differing spreads on the same Pokemon---standard defenses when P-2 attacks, max or standard offense when attacking P-2.

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What a douche. P-2's staple is either Thunderbolt or Discharge, which is already 4x to Gyara. By preference, P-2 runs lots of physical defense, as well as Tracing Intimidate, forcing it to DD twice just to get +1 attack. In the analysis, not one of the five Gyarados sets runs any SD whatsoever.

DAMAGE CALCS WITH STANDARD BULKYDOS LISTED IN ANALYSIS:

Thunderbolt: 100.00% - 117.52%

Discharge: 84.59% - 99.40%

Unfortunately, Discharge fails to OHKO, but if you like status, it's fine compared to what Gyarados can, or can't do. Douchebag.

DD MAX ATTACK GYARA CALCS:

With 252 Attack, Life Orb, and STAB Waterfall. And Adamant nature.

-1 Attack after Trace: 29.08% - 34.24%
Neutral after 1 DD: 42.93% - 50.54%
+1 Attack after 2 DDs: 64.13% - 75.54%

Mind you, this is NOT BULKYDOS. This is 252 Att/LO/STAB/+ Att nature, pretty much max attack, on P-2's spread, barely max defenses. Gyara has to DD once to at least have a chance at 2HKO, which it will not survive. Gyara must run max HP (the DD set in the analysis runs 72 HP) in order to even survive 2 Discharges, T-bolt OHKOs no matter what.

Throw P-2 in as your starter and never see that douche's face ever again.

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Hippo is ugly. When I first saw it, I thought it was the ugliest thing ever. Girl ones are more tolerable to look at. Hippo is a common lead due to Sandstream, and guess what? Nobody ever runs SD on it. P-2, due to Trace, is anathema to SS teams and more often than not, having nice SE moves to rip them apart. TTar is considered lucky due to being a Rock-type, but Hippo and Garchomp are not. And that pathetic Speed? Hippo is one of the few things P-2 will outrun.

DAMAGE CALCS WITH STANDARD HIPPO IN ANALYSIS:

Ice Beam: 51.43% - 60.48%

2HKOs Hippo, not bad. Because I'm lazy, I'll do the calcs on what Hippo does back with the 252 HP/252 Def/6 Att spread.

Earthquake: 28.26% - 33.42%

Earthquake with 252 Att, +Att nature: 38.32% - 45.11%

Outright laughable. P-2 outruns this, remember, and Lum Berry is against any daring fool who tries to get lucky with Ice Fang. Of course, it faces no threat since Hippo will probably lay down SR anyways...

CALCS WITH OBI'S HIPPO:
252 HP / 24 Atk / 192 Def / 40 SpDef
Impish nature (+Def, -SpAtk)

Pasted right from his RMT. 1-on-1, how would a Hippo lead fare against P-2?

Ice Beam: 48.81% - 57.38%

Just shy of 2HKO (with Leftovers recovery), but all Hippo can do back is SR and run.

Earthquake: 28.80% - 33.97%

Not much difference than above.

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While P-2 cannot switch in to Garchomp, it does a decent job of surviving an assault from this Pokemon and kill with Ice Beam. If it holds Brightpowder in SS, it will die a horrible death due to Trace and lack of any attacking boosts. Whack-A-Mole with Ice Beam, since it will certainly miss P-2 traced Sand Veil and turn its own trick against it.

DAMAGE CALCS WITH VARYING NATURES:

No matter what, P-2 will OHKO with Ice Beam.

IB vs. 252 HP Garchomp: 90.00% - 105.95%

Garchomp must run max HP to have a chance at survive Ice Beam. It rarely, if ever, carries this, only enough to survive Ice Shard and certainly rarely much of any SD.

Since Chomp has two equal STABs, I will calculate with both. Assume 252 Att.

Jolly with Choice Scarf: Earthquake: 38.59% - 45.38%
Draco Meteor: 29.62% - 34.78%

Adamant with CS: Earthquake: 42.39% - 50.00%
Draco Meteor: 29.62% - 34.78% (same)

Choice Scarf, iirc, is the most popular variety of Chomp. Watch these and laugh. It must be Adamant in order to even have a chance at 2HKO.

More EQ calcs:
With Adamant, Choice Band: 63.32% - 74.46%

The max amount of damage, iirc, possible with Earthquake against P-2.

Outrage with Adamant, Choice Band: 75.82% - 89.13%

Max amount of damage possible with Outrage.

In short, Porygon2 has the defenses to make a last-ditch Garchomp killer. Swords Dance and other forms of set-up are not included, as has already been established, Garchomp must have max HP in order to have a slight chance of surviving OHKO from Ice Beam.

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If you're not Specsmence, you die. Easy and simple due to Tracing Intimidate, same reasons as Gyara above. So I'll make this nice and simple: I'll only do standard Specsmence calcs.

SPECSMENCE CALCS:
Ice Beam: 119.94% - 141.09%

With no defenses, Specsmence is OHKO dragonchops.

Draco Meteor: 95.65% - 112.50%

Unfortunately, since Specsmence is faster than you, it will have a chance at OHKO.

But never fear! What if you put in a bit of SD? The analysis puts in nothing for SD, so let's temporarily replace the SA with the SD (144).

Draco Meteor: 82.61% - 97.28%

Aha! Sacrifice for killing Specsmence is nice. But with a bit of SD, P-2 is capable of surviving Draco Meteor. Oh, and replacing the SA doesn't hurt at all: Ice Beam still does 104.83% - 123.56%.

So all of these are with Specsmence. Mixmence, DDmence...all other kinds will be crippled by Intimidate and die.
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Lum Berry is suggested for this reason. And with Lum Berry, Yanmega becomes a joke. But let's see what it will do if it dares attack.

CALCS:
Yanmega is never likely to have anything in its defenses.

Thunderbolt or Ice Beam: 83.71% - 98.40%

o_o ...nevermind. Either I did the calc wrong, or this is really it. 86/56 is terrible, but this is neutral, unboosted. Add a bit more SA, then. >_>

252 SA, +SA nature Bug Buzz: 42.93% - 50.54%

......I have to post these for truth, read the disadvantages section for more information.

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Another Lum Berry target. I pray that calcs aren't as depressing. xD Breloom can't use Focus Punch as long as you're blasting away Ice Beams.

Calcs:

Ice Beam: 95.40% - 112.26%

As mentioned with Yanmega earlier, you might want to put a bit for SA to guarantee it. But there you go. Of course, if you're put to sleep, switch out as Focus Punch will do 138.86% - 163.59%. But nobody's that stupid. ;D

Other Pokemon P-2 does amazingly well against, no calcs here.
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Vaporeon is forced to Baton Pass on sight---Tracing Water Absorb and decent defenses to shrug off its HPs scare it off. Hate trapping Dugtrio? Smack those bitches on their big huge noses with Trace---Hippowdon has more attack than those idiot moles and is forced to stay in and be Ice Beamed to death. Skarmory can only status and blow it away, or risk being Thunderbolted to death. Donphan has worse HP and SD than Hippo, so it risks Ice Beams in da face. That and scaring Gliscor with 4x Ice Beam make P-2 a perfect compliment to Heracross---after all, it kills off Blissey, Cress and other things that wall P-2.

The Disadvantages of P-2
Yes, the depressing section. >_> I will add more later as I recieve more input.
  • It's slow. Out of every possible starter, only Hippowdon is slower than P-2. It has to carry Thunder Wave or Trick Room to even try going first.
  • It has an inability to kill things, even with base 105 SA and excellent coverage. It cannot kill Yanmega or standard Mixape with Naive -SD nature, Life Orb recoil and -1 SD after Close Combat!
  • It is extremely difficult to choose an effective spread. Will you sacrifice attacking power or its ability to survive hits? Do you need enough to survive Specsmence or kill Yanmega? It's difficult.
  • It is easily walled. Cresselia, Bronzong, Blissey, etc. completely laugh at it.
Conclusion
I'm lazy, so maybe I forgot a few things. I will edit this as necessary. Anyways, I hope this overview shows how nicely my signature Pokemon can do as a semi-anti-starter amongst other functions, especially being the most overspecialized Gyarados killer in the game. Thank you for your time and you may now comment as you see fit now that you have read this long ol' thing.

Oh, and before I go and do my piles of homework, meet our guest band, the Ducklings! Dance with them!
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Pretty good, The only bad thing I see about porygon 2 is that it has trouble competing for a team slot. I mean it's to slow to be a special sweeper, not really support, and its defenses aren't exactly wall/tank like.....
 
I've used this thing with a lot of success :)

On Hippowdon, try Obi's EV spread, on Garchomp, add Outrage's damage
 
Pretty good, The only bad thing I see about porygon 2 is that it has trouble competing for a team slot. I mean it's to slow to be a special sweeper, not really support, and its defenses aren't exactly wall/tank like.....
You'd be surprised. Don't underestimate P2. It's one hell of a tank.
 
Is that the ev spread you use for it on your tr team?

P-2 is probably a great tank in BL/UU...xD
 
Instead of toxic and thunderwave, I use hp fighting to get a surprise hit against weavile and tyranitar.
 
Ahahahaha. Last match i switched it in on a shedinja. He had no fighting moves left so i slowly pwned eachand every one of his pokemon. Wow. Ownage. Trace really rapes face.

P-2 still dies to Draco Meteor if it switches into Stealth Rock no matter what.

We are discussing it as a lead. Since specsmence is a common lead, i think we can safely run calcs without worrying about SR damage.
 
The Porygon line is my favorite evolution chain of pokemon. P-2 is very good. Recover and Trace are a blessing, coupled with good defenses and SpAtk along with an insane movepool. I think the problem with P-2 is that it can almost do to much. I run 3 different P-2 sets on 3 different teams, and they all are designed to do different things. P-2 is definatly one of the most versatile pokemon there is.
 
IMPORTANT: Modest Porygon 2 with 228 Hp, 232 Defense, and 24 Special Attack is a better set! Same Hp, same Spatk, more defense (23 more defense to be exact)
 
Porygon-2 is a Douchebag.
No, really, let's look at Infernape who can easily switch in and own you. I dunno what you're doing to Zong, who will gladly take the T-Wave to giga-power his Gyra Balls, or to Toxic you in the face.
It's looks meh on paper if you ignore the hyping. I mean, Pelipper can do the same things with HP Elec/Ice Beam! It's basically "look at how good bolt-beam is on things weak to it like Garchomp!". Starmie can do the same thing. Starmie is fast, has Recover, has Boltbeam, Natural Cure, etc. You basically gave us bolt-beam, and listed the obvious damage calcs in things weak to it. Blissey can kill Garchomp! Or how about something that has STAB on Bolt or Beam? Even better! Its just bolt-beam, with trace and porygon-2's OK defences. It's obvious Gyarados is going to get KOed by Tbolt... Starmie is faster and can do the same thing. While Starmie is weak to Pursuit/U-Turn, 2 is weak to Ape, Ape, and most fighting moves. Did I say Ape yet? Really, meh. I know it's your favorite pokemon, but other bolt-beamers can do the same things. Maybe if you did something else than just bolt-beam calcs... It's really obvious that Gyara dies to T-Bolt, Garchomp to Ice Beam (and Salamence/Breloom) and Yanmega to both... oh wait, it doesn't even die. It's BL for a reason. :/
And the disadvantages section was way too short. Sorry, dude, bolt-beam can be done by lots of things. And Toxic.
 
I knew p2 was a great tank...but those calcs make me want to use him now! An OHKO on dos, dragons, [possibly] Breloom, [possibly] yanmega, and 2OHKO on tanks like vappy, hippo, and skarm.

Try to put in 30-40 more SA evs to OHKO breloom and mega.
 
Porygon-2 is a Douchebag.
No, really, let's look at Infernape who can easily switch in and own you. I dunno what you're doing to Zong, who will gladly take the T-Wave to giga-power his Gyra Balls, or to Toxic you in the face.
It's looks meh on paper if you ignore the hyping. I mean, Pelipper can do the same things with HP Elec/Ice Beam! It's basically "look at how good bolt-beam is on things weak to it like Garchomp!". Starmie can do the same thing. Starmie is fast, has Recover, has Boltbeam, Natural Cure, etc. You basically gave us bolt-beam, and listed the obvious damage calcs in things weak to it. Blissey can kill Garchomp! Or how about something that has STAB on Bolt or Beam? Even better! Its just bolt-beam, with trace and porygon-2's OK defences. It's obvious Gyarados is going to get KOed by Tbolt... Starmie is faster and can do the same thing. While Starmie is weak to Pursuit/U-Turn, 2 is weak to Ape, Ape, and most fighting moves. Did I say Ape yet? Really, meh. I know it's your favorite pokemon, but other bolt-beamers can do the same things. Maybe if you did something else than just bolt-beam calcs... It's really obvious that Gyara dies to T-Bolt, Garchomp to Ice Beam (and Salamence/Breloom) and Yanmega to both... oh wait, it doesn't even die. It's BL for a reason. :/
And the disadvantages section was way too short. Sorry, dude, bolt-beam can be done by lots of things. And Toxic.

Stupid post. First of all, every poke has counters, Garchomp gets revenged killed easily if it uses outrage, does that make it a bad poke? absolutely not. It's not just about bolt beam either, its about being able to take the hit from gyarados and dish something back. Starmie can't do shit after gyarados dragon dances, especially if its an offensive gyarados. Not to mention trace is an amazing ability. And BL is the same level as OU.
 
u know I actually am thinking of using P-2 now. Thanks. Next time though . . . try to toan down the swearing/bitching/ranting when you're trying to get people to read.
 
Eh truth be told, the biggest downer to P2 is that, it'll just bring a boring cycle of continous switching from Gyarados to Blissey, and P2 to random Phsyical Poke, although either person could screw the other over by overprediction, in which it's random guesswork. Now the issue with this is that, there are much better Poke to do the random guess work for you. I'd rather use Starmie, who could always just Rapid Spin which actually does something on the switch, rather than P2 pointlessly Thunder Waving a Blissey or something. Cresselia could have done the same with setting up Screens, or just tanking better overall.
 
Stupid post. First of all, every poke has counters, Garchomp gets revenged killed easily if it uses outrage, does that make it a bad poke? absolutely not. It's not just about bolt beam either, its about being able to take the hit from gyarados and dish something back. Starmie can't do shit after gyarados dragon dances, especially if its an offensive gyarados. Not to mention trace is an amazing ability. And BL is the same level as OU.
The reason I posted it is because the damage calcs are really just bolt-beam calcs that most pokemon with 90 base sp.attack or higher can easily achieve. So basically, the only reason to use it is to come in on Gyara? Extremely narrow. What's the point? It's just boltbeam that can come in on gyara. With a fighting weak. It's OK. But it's not something spectacular or game-breaking or even all too special.
It was hyped too much, when it's not doing anything special except
A) Switching into Gyara/leading against it: The former can be done by a lot of things, the latter has a huge number of pokemon that can do that. Beat Gyara with Electric move is old.
B) Trace- It's OK, mostly for tracing intimidate and some other stuff, but usually ends up being useless.
C) Bolt-Beam- How is this special at all? And it's the most hyped part about him, the damage calcs. "Oooh, Garchomp dies to Ice Beam" or "Oooh, Gyarados dies to to Thunderbolt" is not enough. Lots of things can pull that off.
D) Toxic/T-Wave. 90% of all pokemon can learn the TM Toxic. T-Wave is not uncommon either. Not too special, at all.
EDIT: BL is pokemon not used in OU but banned from UU. According to Smogon, useage=power. Mostly. Therefore, BL is primarily ppokemon worse than OU pokemon.
EDIT #2: Also, I'm not trying to flame anything. I probably failed at that though...
Porugon2 is an OK pokemon, but I just feel it's hyped too much. As said before, it's not too special, and the only things it does is kill Gyarados, and kill Dragons on the switch or something, which is what most bolt-beamers can do anyway. It's meh.
 
Stupid post. First of all, every poke has counters, Garchomp gets revenged killed easily if it uses outrage, does that make it a bad poke? absolutely not. It's not just about bolt beam either, its about being able to take the hit from gyarados and dish something back. Starmie can't do shit after gyarados dragon dances, especially if its an offensive gyarados. Not to mention trace is an amazing ability. And BL is the same level as OU.

I agree 100%. Who the fuck leaves a P-2 agains a Ape? Only you.
 
The reason I posted it is because the damage calcs are really just bolt-beam calcs that most pokemon with 90 base sp.attack or higher can easily achieve. So basically, the only reason to use it is to come in on Gyara? Extremely narrow. What's the point? It's just boltbeam that can come in on gyara. With a fighting weak. It's OK. But it's not something spectacular or game-breaking or even all too special.
It was hyped too much, when it's not doing anything special except
A) Switching into Gyara/leading against it: The former can be done by a lot of things, the latter has a huge number of pokemon that can do that. Beat Gyara with Electric move is old.
B) Trace- It's OK, mostly for tracing intimidate and some other stuff, but usually ends up being useless.
C) Bolt-Beam- How is this special at all? And it's the most hyped part about him, the damage calcs. "Oooh, Garchomp dies to Ice Beam" or "Oooh, Gyarados dies to to Thunderbolt" is not enough. Lots of things can pull that off.
D) Toxic/T-Wave. 90% of all pokemon can learn the TM Toxic. T-Wave is not uncommon either. Not too special, at all.
EDIT: BL is pokemon not used in OU but banned from UU. According to Smogon, useage=power. Mostly. Therefore, BL is primarily ppokemon worse than OU pokemon.
Not game breaking but useful, and remember a lot of stuff can't hope to touch gyarados after dragon dance. Starmie might after one, so yea it can do the same thing, but that doesn't make it the same thing as P2 but better. Bolt-beam is nothing new but works well for him in that the things he can bolt beam he can counter well. Recover make him durable and able to toxic stall well. There are a lot of good things it can trace, i won't go through them. So its a solid poke.
BL is the same as OU, just stuff in BL isn't used as much, but they're considered just as strong. If everyone started using P2, it'd be OU, not because its better than BL stuff but because of its usage
 
Usage=Power in every case EXCEPT BL/OU.

BL is an OU limbo, where less-used Pokemon that can compete with OU but not UU. They are exactly as powerful as OU but too strong for UU, but they may be outclassed or something in OU, therefore, they are used less and relegated to BL. BL pokes are basically the same as OU except for usage.

Look at Entei. Arcanine outclasses him, but Entei is BL. Why not UU? TOO STRONG. But he is never used since Arcanine is better, as I said before. The solution? Banished to BL.

P-2 is BL because he's not used a lot. This is a different case than my Entei one, because it's plausible that one would use P-2. It's not plausible to use Entei, though. Usage =/= power in this case. If Porygon2 was used alot, he'd be pushed up to OU simply because he is capable to compete viably. Entei cannot.


(Sorry for my generous comparisons to Entei)
 
I agree 100%. Who the fuck leaves a P-2 agains a Ape? Only you.

And who the fuck leaves a Gyara against a P-2? Also Starmie doesn't die to a 1 DD Gyara.

The only good thing it has over other pokes is Trace (bye bye Dugtrio, Flash Fire counter, Intimidater, etc).
 
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