CAP 25 - Part 4 - Secondary Typings Discussion

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

A general yet comprehensive list of everything the type matters for:

• Its type matchups (weaknesses, resistances, immunities)
• Miscellaneous defensive traits (damage from SR, immunity to poison, to paralysis, to powder moves, to prankster)
• The power of its STAB moves

The third means that although non-damaging movepool (like leech seed, light screen, will-o-wisp) don't change based on type, the damaging movepool does. Normal more than any other type has an extremely wide damaging movepool which makes its moves a good choice for this concept, but because its coverage is only neutral and never super-effective, whether or not the moves' user has STAB greatly impacts the effectiveness of its normal-type movepool. It's true -ate abilities can fill in this gap, but that already uses up the ability slot.

For 25g, as said before, Normal is a powerful STAB (and much less powerful as coverage because it's not SE against anything), so is worth it, as well as being defensively decent (an immunity to ghost is absolutely worth a weakness to fighting). Being quad-weak to U-turn sets us up to have a whole lot of trouble with scarfers, so is not recommended. Grass resists two of the best attacking types, Ground and Water, which shouldn't be undone without strong reasons. Steel's many resistances are one such reason - if we want to make a generally good type and leave the direction-setting for later stages, Steel is a pretty good secondary type. Otherwise, we've tentatively ruled out Dark, Psychic, Poison, Rock, Ground, Fire, and Electric. We could do Fairy, but Jumbao has a very broad role, and is also relatively stat-balanced, so we'd run into trouble competing with it. Ghost is possible, but has little that draws you to it, and Bug and Flying have unneeded resistances while their weakness to SR hurts. Dragon is also attractive, Ice even more so, but the type I like most is Grass/Fighting, because of Fighting's good damaging movepool, and its resistance to both Ground and Rock, which carves out a defensive niche for it. Its coverage isn't as good, but that matters less for 25g because it's intentionally a specialist.

P.S. "I for one would like to be able to do something about Necturna once I switch my Necturna counter in." If this is an issue, we can solve it with coverage. Necturna's bulk at -1 is not so powerful we need STAB to deal with it.

So I see you ruled out Grass/Fire and Grass/Electric because of their ground neutrality... so why does steel not get affected? Also, Grass/Steel has 2 GOOD and relevant Pokemons, both which are in higher sides of A tier. Grass/Electric has none, and Grass/Fire has one, so Grass/Fire is still out. If we do make a Grass/Steel type, what niche will it provide. Ferrothorn is a tanky hazard setter, while Kartana is a versatile sweeper/wallbreaker. Another thing is that grass is a specialist type, and I don't see Grass/Steel being a specialist; it seems like a generically good type, which we really don't want And since the 2 roles of existing Grass/Steel are already on opposite ends of the spectrum, a middle of the road Pokémon is even less "specialist".

 

[hawk1113]

I have been tunnel-visioned on grass, so now to give some love to 25f. Specifically, I want to talk about why why Fire/Electric is the superior choice compared to Fire/Flying, Fire/Ice, and Fire/Rock - four offensive typings suggested in this thread that that have very similar SE damage profiles in the meta overall.

First, Fire/Electric:
Super-effective Against: 6 - Bug, Flying, Grass, Ice, Steel, Water
Resisted by: 2 types - Dragon, Ground
Walled on Paper by: 9.5** - Zygarde, Pajantom, Cyclohm, Krillowatt, Gastrodon, Latias-M, Swampert-M, Charizard-MX, Garchomp, Marowak-A** (with Lightning Rod)
Resists: 8 - Bug, Electric, Fairy, Fire, Flying, Grass, Ice, Steel (4x)
Weakness: 3 - Ground x4, Rock x2, Water x2
Additional Considerations: Immune to Paralysis

Fire/Rock:
Super-Effect Against: 6 - Bug, Grass, Fire, Flying, Ice, Steel
Resisted By: Only 4 specific typings; Water/Fighting, Water/Ground, Dragon/Fighting, Dragon/Ground
Walled on Paper by: 6.5 - Zygarde, Arghonaut, Gastrodon, Swampert-M, Keldeo, Garchomp, Naviathan* (w/ Heatproof)
Resistances: 7 - Fire (4x), Bug, Fairy, Flying, Ice, Normal, Poison
Weaknesses: 4 - 4x Water, 4x Ground, 2x Fighting, 2x Rock
Additional Considerations: Immune to Sand

Fire/Ice:
Super-effective Against: 7 - Dragon, Bug, Flying, Grass, Ground, Ice, Steel
Resisted by: 2 types - Fire, Water
Walled on Paper by: 15.5*** - Greninja, Heatran, Volkraken, Arghonaut, Krillowatt, Toxapex, Marowak-A, Slowking, Mollux, Tapu Fini, Suicune, Azumarill, Keldeo, Manaphy, Victini, Naviathan* (with Heatproof)
Resists: 4 - Bug, Fairy, Fire, Grass, Ice (4x)
Weakness: 4- Fighting 2x, Ground 2x, Rock 4x, Water 2x
Additional Considerations: Immune to Hail. Loses 50% HP to Rocks.

Fire/Flying:
Super-effective Against: 5- Bug, Fighting, Grass, Ice, Steel
Resisted by: One type - Rock, but also some specific combos below
Walled on Paper by: 8.5 - Heatran, Crucibelle, Krilowatt, Cyclohm, Diancie-M, Stratagem, Tyranitar, Rotom-W, Naviathan* (with Heatproof)
Resists: 7 - Bug (4x), Fairy, Fire, Fighting, Grass (4x), Ground (Immune), Steel
Weakness: 3 - Electric 2x, Rock 4x, Water 2x
Additional Considerations: Loses 50% HP to Rocks.

So first things first; to me, Fire/Electric, Fire/Rock, and Fire/Ice are very similar and Fire/Electric beats them both handily.
- All three types can hit flying-types for SE damage.
- All three typings will generally find themselves struggling against only a handful of specific Pokemon; Dragon and/or Ground types for Fire/Rock and Fire/Electric, Fire and Water types for Fire/Ice.
- All three typings carry far more resistances than weaknesses, with the offset being carrying at least one crippling 4x weakness.

The clincher for me is that Fire/Electric can hit Water types for SE damage. This turns many would-be counters into checks (Toxapex, Greninja, Arghonaut) or even straight-up bait depending on our final stat spread and ability. When compared to Fire/Rock, Fire/Electric's ability to hit water is generally much more useful than hitting Fire SE (as Rock does). This is especially true since water types are EVERYWHERE in this meta, and also since Heatran and Pyroak are going to be hit neutrally by all three of these typings while Volkraken and CharizardY are also Electric-weak. Against Fire/Ice it's a little closer especially since in theory the type hits more things super-effectively, but the tiebreaker is that theoretically, classic BoltBeam coverage (which we'd have to fight to avoid since HP: Ice is a thing) makes Fire/Electric a total monster capable of smashing many of the things that ought to wall it such as Lando-T and Zygarde - my list of "Walled on paper by" is a bit misleading in that regard, or at least more easily patched. Additionally and as mentioned, water is everywhere so failing to hit those types with STAB (barring of course access to REDACTED) is a major liability.

Now, of course HP: Grass or Electric, or coverage, is a thing for Fire/Ice too but then we look at defenses and here is where fire/electric shines by carrying the most resistances (at 8) and fewest weaknesses (with just 3). Paralysis immunity and Tapu Koko synergy are also major bonuses. Fire/Ice suffers most here, with an even 4 resist and 4 weaknesses and a devastating 4x weakness to Rocks and Stealth Rock damage.

Basically, TL;DR - much of what Fire/Rock and Fire/Ice are capable of, Fire/Electric will do better and with less overall risk and more switch-in opportunities.

--------------
Fire/Flying is a different beast, but to me Fire/Electric still comes out ahead. On paper it would seem that hitting Fighting for SE damage is a big win compared to the profile of damage for Fire/Electric, but let's look at the meta and its major fighting types...

- Tomohawk (Fighting/Flying, so also hit SE by electric)
- Hawlucha (Fighting/Flying, so also hit SE by electric)
- Arghonaut (Water/Fighting, so also hit SE by electric)
- Keldeo (Water/Fighting, so also hit SE by Electric)
- Heracross-M (Bug/Fighting, so hit SE by Fire already)

That's not to say there aren't fighting types to prey on (Medicham-M, Lopunny-M, Revenankh, Voodoom) but the three highest-rating Fighting types in the meta are just as neatly handled by Fire/Electric and, again, there's a lot more water and flying-types to shock out of existence. Flying has fewer things that outright wall it, but that can be patched and Fire/Electric generally hits more things SE which is just as valuable.

Defensively it seems like a push, but imo I think that crippling Rocks weakness is much harder to stomach than the 4x Ground weakness versus Immunity for flying.

I think there's still room for discussion around very different types - Fire/Dragon, Fire/Fairy, Fire/Ground, and Fire/Psychic have some wildly different and hard to compare matchups. But fire/electric seems strong, and certainly trumps these other types imo.

EDIT: To be more specific and less broad, I added a "walled by on paper" section to each typing; I glanced at tiers S through B- and asked if that STAB combo was double resisted. This is key for an offensive Pokemon when we look at STABs. While coverage can of course patch this, it means when evaluating these types we should ask - how many Pokemon wall this on its face, and how easy is that problem to patch?
** - Fire/Electric, as mentioned, can remove several Pokemon from this list with simply HP: Ice, nevermind having actual serious Ice coverage. Grass/Knot also nukes several of these.
*** - Fire/Ice could have <Redacted> which eats about a dozen of these walls but puts significantly more constraints on us.

 

[Warren685]

The clincher for me is that Fire/Electric can hit Water types for SE damage.

I mean Fire/Ice with freeze-dry?

 

[hawk1113]

I mean Fire/Ice with freeze-dry?

Poll-jumping? But as I alluded to with my redacted comment; yeah, sure, if it's determined to be a big deal than I'm sure we'd give Fire/Ice Freeze-dry or Thunderbolt or Grass Knot depending on what we wanted to kill and how badly we wanted to kill it, and we can't keep it from having Hidden Power. If both types are going to have a SE STAB or coverage move though, such that offensively they are largely very similar in what they can check and counter, than it is the defensive counts that carry the day - and Fire/Electric will have far more switch-in opportunities with its eight resistances and paralysis immunity compared to Fire/Ice's four alongside double Stealth Rock weakness.

 

[Hardrocknerd]

Against Fire/Ice it's a little closer especially since in theory the type hits more things super-effectively, but the tiebreaker is that theoretically, classic BoltBeam coverage (which we'd have to fight to avoid since HP: Ice is a thing) makes Fire/Electric a total monster capable of smashing many of the things that ought to wall it such as Lando-T and Zygarde. Additionally and as mentioned, water is everywhere so failing to hit those types with STAB (barring of course access to REDACTED) is a major liability.

One issue I have with that argument is that relying on BoltBeam-coverage makes us not only rely on said coverage, but also, even when using HP Ice, on having a SpA-focused Mon, ruling out the possibility of giving the metagame a physically attacking Fire type, something way less common in CAP than special attacking Fire types (the only physical Fire types in the VR are Charizard X (B-rank) and Victini (B--Rank) while special ones are already appearing in A+ (Volkraken, Heatran))

 

[hawk1113]

One issue I have with that argument is that relying on BoltBeam-coverage makes us not only rely on said coverage, but also, even when using HP Ice, on having a SpA-focused Mon, ruling out the possibility of giving the metagame a physically attacking Fire type, something way less common in CAP than special attacking Fire types (the only physical Fire types in the VR are Charizard X (B-rank) and Victini (B--Rank) while special ones are already appearing in A+ (Volkraken, Heatran))

This is a very fair point. I added to each section a "Walled on Paper" section and it does look a bit bleak for Fire/Electric - I guess a question is whether the greater defensive prowess and offensive power is worth having more counters that we will have to address with movepool or ability, or simply acccept as something our teammates must handle. I still think Fire/Electric is really good even if we make it physical with no ice coverage, but it puts into perspective some of why Fire/Rock and Fire/Flying have even been in this thread.

 

[faithviolet]

A quick correction: Ground does not resist Fire, so you're only left with 9 Pokemon "walled-on-paper". Fire/Flying is also walled "on-paper" by Krillowatt, Cyclohm, half of Naviathan (Fire/Rock too), and Rotom-W.

Edit: and Krillowatt does not resist Electric.

 

[hawk1113]

A quick correction: Ground does not resist Fire, so you're only left with 9 Pokemon "walled-on-paper". Fire/Flying is also walled "on-paper" by Krillowatt, Cyclohm, half of Naviathan (Fire/Rock too), and Rotom-W.

Thanks! Can't believe I forgot that. I'll fix it accordingly.

 

[min min]

tl;dr, we should use 25f to explore having a fire-type as a splashable offensive pivot

While there's lots of interesting arguments for Fire/Electric and Fire/Fairy, I think Fire/Ground holds a lot of promise for 25f to explore a niche that OU fire-types haven't done in a while: splashable offensive pivot. The closest we have in OU is Heatran due to its rock neutrality and numerous resists, and it fulfills more of a utility role to support the team and trap/kill key threats before being forced out. Fire/ground 25f can play like tran, coming in and out several times in a match without as much stress to Defog/spin, with the difference being that it fulfills a more offensive role with its STABs. For one, ground STAB hits Pex and Krillo as well as deterring the Volkraken switchin. It also has an edge over stuff like Fire/Elec in scaring away Crucibelle - a fast enough Fire/Ground could even be specced to be another Cruci check, further keeping this top meta threat at bay. By typing alone, we've already potentially covered a lot of the things that commonly threaten fires - and I feel this unconventionality off the bat can really help solidify 25f's niche in future rounds of discussion.

(Plus, being volt switch immune is really nice thing for a pivot to be - see Lando-T and Gliscor.)

 

[hawk1113]

tl;dr, we should use 25f to explore having a fire-type as a splashable offensive pivot

While there's lots of interesting arguments for Fire/Electric and Fire/Fairy, I think Fire/Ground holds a lot of promise for 25f to explore a niche that OU fire-types haven't done in a while: splashable offensive pivot. The closest we have in OU is Heatran due to its rock neutrality and numerous resists, and it fulfills more of a utility role to support the team and trap/kill key threats before being forced out. Fire/ground 25f can play like tran, coming in and out several times in a match without as much stress to Defog/spin, with the difference being that it fulfills a more offensive role with its STABs. For one, ground STAB hits Pex and Krillo as well as deterring the Volkraken switchin. It also has an edge over stuff like Fire/Elec in scaring away Crucibelle - a fast enough Fire/Ground could even be specced to be another Cruci check, further keeping this top meta threat at bay. By typing alone, we've already potentially covered a lot of the things that commonly threaten fires - and I feel this unconventionality off the bat can really help solidify 25f's niche in future rounds of discussion.

(Plus, being volt switch immune is really nice thing for a pivot to be - see Lando-T and Gliscor.)

I'm not sure about offensive Pivot, since it still struggles to come in on a lot of relevant things in the meta. I do think this is a very promising typing though. Let's break it down:

Fire/Ground:
Super-effective Against: 8 - Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Ice, Poison, Rock, Steel
Resisted by: Flying types (or levitate-mons) with a fire resist; Water/Flying, Dragon/Flying, Rock/Flying, Fire/Flying
Walled on Paper by: 6 - Latios-M, Charizard-Y, Salamence, Gyarados, Pelipper, Rotom-W
Immune: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Resists: 5- Bug, Fairy, Fire, Poison, Steel
Weak: 2 - Water x4, Ground

This fighting does several brilliant things.
- We are now Rocks neutral! It's tough to do that for a fire type.
- We have a huge 8 types we hit for SE damage with our STABs, and a mere six relevant meta 'mons resist both our stabs. We are hugely threatening, and can check a lot of things.
- 5 resists and an immunity is not a huge number but the things we resist are very relevant, including Fire, Electric, Fairy.
- A bigger deal is carrying only two weaknesses. While a 4x Water weakness is nasty, this allows us the freedom to build something that can come in against neutral hits and threaten devastating retaliation as a pivot, but more likely it gives us a potentially lethal offensive sweeper or wallbreaker that can easily threaten things out.

 

[pastafari]

I'm not sure about offensive Pivot, since it still struggles to come in on a lot of relevant things in the meta. I do think this is a very promising typing though. Let's break it down:

Fire/Ground:
Super-effective Against: 8 - Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Ice, Poison, Rock, Steel
Resisted by: Flying types (or levitate-mons) with a fire resist; Water/Flying, Dragon/Flying, Rock/Flying, Fire/Flying
Walled on Paper by: 6 - Latios-M, Charizard-Y, Salamence, Gyarados, Pelipper, Rotom-W
Immune: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Resists: 5- Bug, Fairy, Fire, Poison, Steel
Weak: 2 - Water x4, Ground

This fighting does several brilliant things.
- We are now Rocks neutral! It's tough to do that for a fire type.
- We have a huge 8 types we hit for SE damage with our STABs, and a mere six relevant meta 'mons resist both our stabs. We are hugely threatening, and can check a lot of things.
- 5 resists and an immunity is not a huge number but the things we resist are very relevant, including Fire, Electric, Fairy.
- A bigger deal is carrying only two weaknesses. While a 4x Water weakness is nasty, this allows us the freedom to build something that can come in against neutral hits and threaten devastating retaliation as a pivot, but more likely it gives us a potentially lethal offensive sweeper or wallbreaker that can easily threaten things out.

Consider that Ground types usualy have access to common Rock-Type coverage. Even without considering that the nature of CAP 25f, might make us choose a damage-increasing Ability, with this single, almost guaranteed coverage, we hit four of the six aforementioned walls. I like Fire/Ground the most for CAP25f.

 

[GMars]

I'm not sure about offensive Pivot, since it still struggles to come in on a lot of relevant things in the meta. I do think this is a very promising typing though. Let's break it down:

Fire/Ground:
Super-effective Against: 8 - Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Ice, Poison, Rock, Steel
Resisted by: Flying types (or levitate-mons) with a fire resist; Water/Flying, Dragon/Flying, Rock/Flying, Fire/Flying
Walled on Paper by: 6 - Latios-M, Charizard-Y, Salamence, Gyarados, Pelipper, Rotom-W
Immune: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Resists: 5- Bug, Fairy, Fire, Poison, Steel
Weak: 2 - Water x4, Ground

This fighting does several brilliant things.
- We are now Rocks neutral! It's tough to do that for a fire type.
- We have a huge 8 types we hit for SE damage with our STABs, and a mere six relevant meta 'mons resist both our stabs. We are hugely threatening, and can check a lot of things.
- 5 resists and an immunity is not a huge number but the things we resist are very relevant, including Fire, Electric, Fairy.
- A bigger deal is carrying only two weaknesses. While a 4x Water weakness is nasty, this allows us the freedom to build something that can come in against neutral hits and threaten devastating retaliation as a pivot, but more likely it gives us a potentially lethal offensive sweeper or wallbreaker that can easily threaten things out.

You're also able to come in handily on most Electric types in the tier, blocking Volt Switch while resisting U-turns, come in comfortably versus Scizor and Celesteela, and get free switch-ins against top-tier Fairy-types like Magearna and Clefable as well as having the potential to check Mega Mawile well, making for a very nice set of switch-in opportunities to pair with the several other great upsides you brought up. I also have Fire / Ground slotted as my number 1 for CAP25f.

 

[Pipotchi]

I'm not sure about offensive Pivot, since it still struggles to come in on a lot of relevant things in the meta. I do think this is a very promising typing though. Let's break it down:

Fire/Ground:
Super-effective Against: 8 - Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Ice, Poison, Rock, Steel
Resisted by: Flying types (or levitate-mons) with a fire resist; Water/Flying, Dragon/Flying, Rock/Flying, Fire/Flying
Walled on Paper by: 6 - Latios-M, Charizard-Y, Salamence, Gyarados, Pelipper, Rotom-W
Immune: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Resists: 5- Bug, Fairy, Fire, Poison, Steel
Weak: 2 - Water x4, Ground

This fighting does several brilliant things.
- We are now Rocks neutral! It's tough to do that for a fire type.
- We have a huge 8 types we hit for SE damage with our STABs, and a mere six relevant meta 'mons resist both our stabs. We are hugely threatening, and can check a lot of things.
- 5 resists and an immunity is not a huge number but the things we resist are very relevant, including Fire, Electric, Fairy.
- A bigger deal is carrying only two weaknesses. While a 4x Water weakness is nasty, this allows us the freedom to build something that can come in against neutral hits and threaten devastating retaliation as a pivot, but more likely it gives us a potentially lethal offensive sweeper or wallbreaker that can easily threaten things out.

It could also be cool to mention that it absorbs 2 status conditions in burn + (most) paralysis, which improves its ability to switch in as well as get stuff done without being crippled. The 4x water weakness is maybe the best 4x weakness to have in the game because nothing uses water type attacks that arent STAB, itll never be used as a hidden power (except perhaps as a tech to this exact mon), and you may not even see water attacks from water types like Argho, Kril, and Protean Gren. In some matchups you'll have a sole weakness to ground which is great. I think because the typing is immediately useful and unique from the get-go (a unique combination of defensively checking electric types, and common fairies like Mag, Clef, Mega Maw, while offensively pressuring everything- note how the listed counters above are not viable/splashable bar Lati) itll give us a great opportunity to avoid minmaxing in the stat stage and giving us a huge range of viable abilities since the typing already gives it heavy viability. This could create a very realistic starter pokemon!
go Fire/Ground!

on a side note, water seems very up in the air. I think I want to support Water/Steel since its main competition is Arghonaut as the premier bulky water, and Water/Steel resists the fairy, psychic and flying moves that Arghonaut is weak to, as well as Toxic- it would give the two an immediate separation.

 

[hawk1113]

Consider that Ground types usualy have access to common Rock-Type coverage. Even without considering that the nature of CAP 25f, might make us choose a damage-increasing Ability, with this single, almost guaranteed coverage, we hit four of the six aforementioned walls. I like Fire/Ground the most for CAP25f.

Yeah, I'm all aboard the hype train for it now regardless of any future coverage or stat spread - I think it's a perfect, underexplored offensive typing that has the right amount of weakneses to ensure we don't make an unbeatable monster (a real risk with fire/electric) without having the myriad weaknesses that fill me with concern for Fire/Flying, Fire/Rock, and Fire/Ice. I will try to do a breakdown on Fire/Fairy. Fire/Fighting, and Fire/Dragon a bit later to be fair though.

 

[Hardrocknerd]

This is a very fair point. I added to each section a "Walled on Paper" section and it does look a bit bleak for Fire/Electric - I guess a question is whether the greater defensive prowess and offensive power is worth having more counters that we will have to address with movepool or ability, or simply acccept as something our teammates must handle. I still think Fire/Electric is really good even if we make it physical with no ice coverage, but it puts into perspective some of why Fire/Rock and Fire/Flying have even been in this thread.

I still think Fire/Ice has an edge over Fire/Electric, exactly because it can threaten a larger portion of the metagame with actual STAB (especially with a certain move that would be poll-jumping to name here), however I think Fire/Electric is closely behind it. Anyway, I have to agree that Fire/Ground steals both typings the spot as the best choice for CAP 25f. It is almost completely unexplored (who the hell plays Camerupt-M outside of maybe some Trick Room shenanigans?^^) and has a lot of advantages concerning safely switching in as well as applying pressure to many relevant Mons.

So as it turns out mobile typing is *blevh*. I’d like to ask Fire/Ground supporters think we would be looking at with regards to Ground/Fire’s ability - Ground as an offensive type is incredibly lacking in secondary effects, which leads me to question how the type benefits our concept specifically.

Ground indeed doesn't have the largest selection of secondary effects to choose from for STAB moves, but there are some like stat drops (Earth Power, Mud Bomb, Bulldoze), multihits (Bone Rush), higher crit rate (Drill Run) or trapping (Sand Tomb). Also, the concept doesn't require every move in our Mon's kit to benefit from the chosen ability, so having its Fire STAB and one or two coverage moves synergize with the ability fulfills our concept just fine, I think.

 

[Raikoben]

Based on hawk1113 analysis, for CAP25w we have

Water/Fairy:
Super-effective Against: 6 - Fire, Rock, Ground, Fighting, Dark and Dragon
Resists: 6 - Fire, Ice, Water, Bug, Dark, Fighting
Weakness: 3 - Electric, Grass, Posion
Walls in paper: Volkraken, Syclant, Voodoom, Charizard-X, Ash-Greninja, Volcarona
Additional Considerations: Immune to Dragon

Pros&Cons: More resistances than weaknesses. Pretty uncommon type combination. Fairy type have a bunch of utility moves for a defensive pokemon Heavy competition on Tapu Fini

Water/Dragon:
Super-effective Against: 4 - Fire, Rock, Ground, Dragon
Resists: 3 - Fire and Water (x4) and Steel
Walls in paper: Volkraken, Heatran, Naviathan
Weakness: 2 - Dragon, Fairy

Pros&Cons: More resistances than weaknesses. Pretty uncomon type combination. There is no previous defensive pokemon with this type combination. Dragon type has no utility/defensive moves* wich can synergize well with any ability. (*Besides Dragon Tail wich is a common move on every mon with tail)

Water/Ground:
Super-effective Against: 6 - Electric, Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel, Ground.
Resists: 4 - Fire (x4), Steel, Rock, Poison
Weakness: 1 - Grass (x4)
Walls in paper: Heatran, Crucibelle-Mega, Molux, Plasmanta, Krillowatt, Stratagem, Magnezone
Additional Considerations: Immune to Electric

Pros&Cons: More resistances than weaknesses. Ground could provide some interesting utility/defensive moves. Already explored combination.

Water/Dark:
Super-effective Against: 5 - Ghost, Psychic, Fire, Ground, Rock
Resists: 6 - Dark, Ghost, Fire, Ice, Steel and Water
Weakness: 5 - Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Electric and Grass
Walls in paper: Heatran, Ash-Greninja, Blacephalon, Volkraken, Kitsunoh, Naviathan
Additional Considerations: Immune to Psychic and Prankster

Pros&Cons: More resistances than weaknesses. Inmunity to Prankster is a thing to be consider. No defensive competition with the same type combination. Dark-type interesting moves for a defensive mon.

Actually, these are my favorites combinations. I think that, for this pool, the most interesting question to answer is: which pokemon can be check by CAP25w that lacks on others checks and counters? Because other important aspect in a defensive pokemon can be fixed with abilities and moves. For example:
(poll jumping redacted)

 

[VannAccessible]

I could get on board with Fire/Ground. Mega Camerupt does have a nice defensive typing that lets it come in easily on Electric types and certain Fairies, and the typing pairs nicely with Grass types to cover its two weaknesses. Jumbao in particular would pair well with such a mon, as it could supply Sun support.

And then, being a Fire type with an SR neutrality, and being able to roll through Toxapex, Tyranitar, Crucible, Cycholm and Heatran is very handy.

It can also eat up Volt Switches and tank U-Turns nicely, so there’s the aspect of being an anti-pivot offensive threat.

 

[EpicUmbreon29]

Hi everyone!

After following this lively discussion and evaluating arguments for the past week, I've begun the process of slating typings. You can expect slates for 25f and 25w later on, but for now here is my preliminary slate for CAP 25g! (Slate subject to possible change in final version.)

Grass/Flying

Reasoning

+ Effective against: Bug, Fighting, Grass, Ground, Rock, Water
+ Resists: Fighting, Grass, Ground, Water
- Weak to: Fire, Flying, Ice, Poison, Rock
- Ineffective against: Steel

Alters critical matchups that Grass types traditionally lose against Bug types, Tomohawk, Hawlucha, and other Grass types. Also grants a fair bit of room to maneuver in move-ability interaction, albeit physically biased in said moves. Provides Spikes immunity in a metagame where they are relevant; Stealth Rock weakness is an unfortunate side effect, although an immunity to Ground is a positive tradeoff.

Grass/Electric

Reasoning

+ Effective against: Flying, Ground, Rock, Water
+ Resists: Electric, Grass, Steel, Water
- Weak to: Bug, Fire, Ice, Poison
- Ineffective against: Dragon, Grass

Alters critical matchups that Grass types traditionally lose against Flying types, including Celesteela and Tomohawk, and improves matchups against Water types neutral to Grass like Volkraken, Toxapex, and Naviathan. Has the potential to work well in both Grassy Terrain and Electric Terrain. Loses Ground resistance but provides Flying neutrality that heavily benefits in the aforementioned matchups. Also helps us to switch into Steel type attacks, and provides us with neutral STAB on Steel types. Provides status immunity to Paralysis.

Grass/Ice

Reasoning

+ Effective against: Dragon, Flying, Grass, Ground, Rock, Water
+ Resists: Electric, Grass, Ground, Water
- Weak to: Bug, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Poison, Rock, Steel
- Ineffective against: Fire, Steel

Alters critical matchups that Grass types traditionally lose against Flying types, Dragon types, and other Grass types. Ice type provides both physical and special Ice type STAB with varied effects that can be explored. Adds the very niche possibility of making a Pokemon that can function well in Hail. Unfortunately adds three weaknesses and no resistances, save for a newfound neutrality to Ice. Stealth Rock weakness hits hard on a type that is already relatively frail, making it more difficult to create a defense or support-oriented CAP 25g.

Grass/Normal

Reasoning

+ Effective against: Ground, Rock, Water
+ Resists: Electric, Ghost, Grass, Ground, Water
- Weak to: Bug, Fighting, Fire, Flying, Ice, Poison
- Ineffective against: Steel

Unique typing that provides great neutral STAB coverage against relevant Pokemon in the CAP metagame. Normal type moves have a fair amount of options both physical and special with varied effects to explore in terms of move-ability interactions. Normal typing grants 25g a Ghost immunity for niche use, but also adds a Fighting weakness. However, Fighting is not terribly common in CAP due to the omnipresence of Tomohawk and Landorus-T. Otherwise, this typing leaves intact the traditional resistances of Grass.

Grass/Fighting***

Reasoning

+ Effective against: Dark, Ground, Ice, Normal, Rock, Steel, Water
+ Resists: Dark, Electric, Grass, Ground, Rock, Water
- Weak to: Fairy, Fire, Flying, Ice, Poison, Psychic
- Ineffective against: Bug, Flying, Poison

Possibly alters matchups that Grass types traditionally lose against Steel types, including Heatran and Ferrothorn, Ice types like Mamoswine and Kyurem-B, and Chansey. Fighting type provides us with STAB moves with varied effects to explore in conjunction with ability, although there is a large physical bias in said moves. Fighting provides helpful resistances to Dark and Rock, making it much easier for 25g to switch in in a metagame where Stealth Rock and Knock Off are prevalent. Unfortunately leaves the largest STAB coverage gap, with neither type being at least neutrally effective against Bug, Flying, or Poison.

Grass/Fighting is, without a doubt, the biggest question mark here. I personally feel that it could be an effective type for 25g, and while it saw more discussion and support than some of the other fringe options that may have only received a one-off suggestion with no further discussion, I feel like it has been underconsidered. If you have any strong feelings about whether or not this typing should be on the final slate, now is your time to voice said feelings. The other four typings on this preliminary slate are fairly solid based on community discussion.

 

[Dece1t]

Fighting could actually be pretty awesome for us, especially if we have a fair speed stat, being able to threaten Heatran would be a massive plus. We could also be able to absorb leech seed from Ferrothorn, and in turn hit that hard. Having a specialized Grass type that can go toe to toe with Kyurem B would be a pretty massive plus. Yea, Ill definitely put my hat in the ring behind that combo!

My personal top 3 for grass right now would be Grass/Electric as the favorite, Grass Fighting, and I wouldnt be too opposed to Grass/Flying, even though it wouldnt patch as many problems as I would like.

 

[reachzero]

Please note that the concept for this project is not "counter Necturna", and any posts focused on Necturna in a more than tangential way before Threats and Counters will be deleted and infracted.

 

[hawk1113]

I think it's good to have Grass/Fighting on the slate - while we have a few Pokemon of that type in the game and Breloom was previously in the meta, even, it is still a strong typing that has room to explore. Fighint has perhaps the most expansive movepool of all types, which is fun to design with. As noted, a Grass type that can beat up Steels, mangle Dark types, and crush Chansey has value for sure. It has numerous flaws - that double flying weakness and new fairy weakness are brutal to deal with in the current meta. As a result I personally prefer Grass/Electric, Grass/Ice, and Grass/Normal, but I do think of all the types discussed it has the most potential value to include on a ballot. While I posted calcs for Grass/Dark a few pages ago as a more powerful and effective answer to Ghost and Psychic types, I ultimately think if we're going to slate a Fairy-weak Grass typing, Grass/Fighting is more powerful and fun.

I had started writing up some stuff the other night, and I wanted to quickly complete my "grand tour" of offensive fire typings that had merited serious discussion:

Fire/Fairy:
Super-effective Against: 7 - Bug, Dark, Dragon, Fighting, Grass, Ice, Steel
Resisted by: most Fire types, Poison types with a fire resist (Poison/Water, Poison/Rock)
Walled on Paper by: 9.5 - Heatran, Crucibelle, Volkraken, Toxapex, Volcarona, Charizard (all variants), Mollux, Marowak-A, Victini, Naviathin* (w/ Heat Proof)
Immune: Dragon
Resists: 7 - Bug (4x), Dark, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Ice
Weak To: 4 - Ground, Water, Poison, Rock


Fire/Dragon:
Super-effective Against: Bug, Dragon, Grass, Ice, Steel
Resisted by: Fairy with fire resists; Fairy/Water; Steels with increased Fire resist
Walled on Paper by: 3.5 - Heatran, Azumarill, Tapu Fini, Naviathan* (with Heat-proof)
Resists: 5 - Bug, Electric, Fire (4x), Grass (4x), Steel
Weak to: 3 - Dragon, Ground, Rock

I was originally, before analyzing, all on-board with Fire/Fairy but my analysis has given me some pause. Its "Walled on Paper" list is actually not so scary, since part of having a fire type IMO is accepting that we are likely going to have a pretty bad time against Heatran, Crucibelle, Toxapex, and Volkraken. This typing would constrain us because it's so strong - seven resists plus an immunity, seven types it hits for SE damage is scary. At the top of the meta especially this thing seriously threatens Tomohawk, Ferrothorn, Jumbao, Magearna, Latios, Pajantom, and Hawlucha, and it also checks several things that on paper seem like counters like Colossoil, Greninja, and Arghonaut. It also constrains our movepool because...there aren't a lot of fairy moves. But that puts us in a bind; we have few moves in our STAB to coordinate with our chosen ability, and any serious coverage (especially Ground, Rock, or Psychic coverage) threatens to overwhelm the meta.

Fire/Dragon is the reverse - at first I wasn't excited, and on the surface it seems terrifying since it also boasts a fair number of resists and has only 3.5 walls in the meta (and let's be real, it's only 3 since it seems to me Guts Dragon Dance Naviathan is infinitely more used and usable than Heatproof Calm Mind Naviathan, although maybe this thing's existence fixes that?). While we can't go for the obvious choice of ability here due to the lack of counters, what balances this out is having the fewest things it hits for SE damage while still having it carry weakness to rocks. We'd have to be careful, but I think Fire/Dragon is more balanceable than Fire/Electric or Fire/Fairy. Even without the big obvious button, Dragon still brings a few interesting moves to the table - we have a multihit physical move, a few special moves that drop stats, and a few moves with low power and/or secondary effects to optimize with Technician, Sheer Force, or Serene Grace. Like Grass/Normal, this also just gives us strong neutral coverage which is always a fine thing for an offensive 'mon.

Overall, across all Fire typings that have received serious discussion, I am most in favor of Fire/Ground and I think that Fire/Flying and Fire/Ice have legitimate pros to warrant their slating. For my final, I'd probably take Fire/Dragon and Fire/Electric as the hard to balance but high reward options.

 

[Squidy822]

Oh boy. I've basically managed to go on and construct a list of everything Fire and Fighting had together since I was curious, and there were plenty including one or two somewhat odd niches.

Fire/Fight List

• Recoil Moves
• Weight-based moves
• Low Acc but useful moves
• Self-Stat Lowering moves
• Opponent-Stat lowering moves.
• Stat Raising
• Status Chance
• Flinch Chance
• Raised Critical Hit Chance
• Shell Trap + Focus Punch
• Eruption + Reversal
• And Finally: Moves with lower then 60 BP. And dang is there a lot.

And that's just the ones they both had: I think it's been mentioned before, but fighting has a lot of stuff. Fixed Damage, Phazing, Priority, Perfect Acc, etc. Meanwhile based on my list the only things Fire had that fighting didn't were Trapping and Recharge. I gotta say I'm fond of this typing.

I'm also hoping I didn't poll jump. If I did...oops.

 

[VannAccessible]

Personally I find Grass/Electric and Grass/Flying to be the most enticing type combos for 25g.

Grass/Electric is a stellar STAB combo the existing meta would be forced to adapt to, given that the primier existing Electric resists are Ground types, are Grass weak. While the typing is walled by Grass and Dragons, countering this typing isn’t as straightforward as you might think, as neither of these types are immune to the oh so common Volt Switch, making a Grass/Electric type very tricky mon to counter (sorry if I’m poll jumping here).

I find Grass/Flying enticing for a different reason. A key defensive niche to Grass types in their immunity to Leech Seed and powder moves. So having a Grass mon capable of using these moves, while also being able to hit its fellow Grass types with a super effective STAB could make for an interesting mon.

 

[hawk1113]

Time for my water analysis! Raikoben did a fine job with several typings, so I wanted to mostly cover a few typings that have been heavily discussed that they didn't - Water/Bug, Water/Steel, Water/Ghost, and Pure Water. I also included my favorite typing (spoiler warning), - Water/Ground, for one more pass.

Note for this I wanted to look at defensive performance – SE and resisted were an afterthought. I also didn't want to do an exact inverse of the "walled on paper" check I did for offense, as it's simply too hard to calculate what we 'wall on paper" - things carry coverage, our stats and abilities are unknown, etc. As a result, we have a new category; “How Bad is that weakness?”. I wanted to know, and hopefully wanted everyone else to know, which 'mons in the meta threaten to crack our defensive shell since we'll need to accept or account for those facts in later stages. To calculate an answer, I asked the following question of each Pokemon rank B- or above:

Is this Pokemon capable of coming in for neutral or resisted damage on our STABs? Does this Pokemon commonly carry a STAB move that is SE against us? If so, they are worth 1 point on the “Weakness” list.

If two of the three criteria above are true, they are half a point. For example, Tomohawk does not get hit SE by Water/Steel and gets Fighting STAB, but it doesn’t always carry a fighting move, so it’s only half counted. Likewise, Kyurem-B doesn’t get STAB on Fusion Bolt, but it pretty much always carries it, so that’s half a point as well. If only one of the criteria is true, they aren’t counted at all – as a common example, Crucibelle often carries Wood Hammer – but Wood Hammer isn’t a STAB move and Crucibelle is weak to water, so she isn’t counted as a weakness unless one of her STABs comes into play.

Water
Resists: 4- Fire, Ice, Steel, Water
Weakness: 2 - Electric, Grass
How Bad Is that Weakness? - Ferrothorn, Jumbao, Tapu Koko, Kartana, Necturna, Krilowatt, Cyclohm, Magnezone, Zapdos, Tapu Bulu, Kyurem-B* (not STAB), Tangrowth, Plasmanta, Venasur-M, Amoongus, Serperior, Rotom-W, Ninetales-A
Hits SE: 3 - Fire, Ground, Rock
Resisted By: 3 - Dragon, Grass, Water

Water/Steel
Immune and Other Considerations: Poison, Sandstorm damage
Resists: 10 - Bug, Dragon, Fairy, Flying, Ice (4x), Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water (4x)
Weakness: 3 - Electric, Fighting, Ground
How Bad Is That Weakness?– Landorus-T* (Weak to us), Tomohawk* (Doesn’t always run SE move), Tapu Koko, Zygarde, Krilowatt, Cyclohm, Magnezone, Arghonaut, Colossoil* (weak to us), Hawlucha, Medicham-M, Plasmanta, Rotom-W, Gastrodon, Zapdos, Cawmodore* (Not STAB), Swampert-M, Garchomp, Gliscor* (weak to us), Gallade-M, Keldeo, Lopunny-M, Mamoswine* (weak to us), Excadrill* (weak to us), Kerfluffle* (Weak to us), Revenankh
Hits SE: 5 – Fairy, Fire, Ground, Ice, Rock
Resisted By: 1 - Water

Water/Ground:
Immune and other Considerations: Electric, Sandstorm damage
Resists: 4 – Bug, Fire, Rock, Steel
Weak: 1 - Grass (4x)
How Bad Is That Weakness? – Ferrothorn, Jumbao, Necturna, Tapu Bulu, Tangrowth, Venasaur-M, Amoongus. Serperior, Ninetales-A
Hits SE: 6 - Electric, Fire, Ground, Poison, Rock, Steel
Resisted by: Grass types, Flying Dragons (Salamence), Flying Water (Pelipper, Gyarados, Rotom-W)

Water/Ghost:
Immune and Other Considerations: Fighting, Normal, most trapping effects
Resists: 4 - Bug, Fire, Ice, Poison,
Weak: 4 - Dark, Electric, Ghost, Grass
How Bad Is That Weakness? - Ferrothorn, Jumbao, Tapu Koko, Kartana, Necturna* (weak to us), Krilowatt, Cyclohm, Zapdos, Magnezone, Tapu Bulu, Toxapex, Kyurem-B* (not STAB), Tangrowth, Plasmanta, Venasur-M, Amoongus, Serperior, Rotom-W, Ninetales-A, Colossoil* (weak to us), Pajantom* (weak to us), Kitsunoh* (weak to us), Marowak-A* (Weak to us), Revenankh* (weak to us), Sableeye - M* (weak to us), Weavile, Tyranitar* (weak to us), Hoopa-U, Gengar* (weak to us), Gyarados-M, Mimikyu* (weak to us)
Hits SE: 5 - Fire, Ghost, Ground, Psychic, Rock
Resisted by: Dark types with a Water resist (Grass/Dark, Dark/Water, Dark/Dragon)

Water/Bug:
Resists: Fighting, Ground (x4), Ice, Steel, Water
Weak to: Electric, Flying, Rock
How Bad is that Weakness? - Tomohawk, Krilowatt, Cyclohm, Zapdos, Magnezone, Rotom-W, Ninetales-A, Plasmanta, Kyurem-B* (Not STAB), Tyranitar* (weak to us), Stratagem* (weak to us), Crucibelle* (weak to us), Hawlucha, Volkraken* (Not STAB), Pinsir-M, Diancie-M* (weak to us),
Hits SE: 6 - Dark, Fire, Grass, Ground, Psychic, Rock
Resisted By: Lots and lots of dual-typed things with a Water resist, including Water/Fairy, Grass/Fairy, Water/Fighting, Flying/Dragon, Water/Dragon, Ghost/Dragon, Ghost/Grass, Water/Poison, Grass/Poison, Water/Steel, Grass/Steel

Water/Poison
Immune To: Poison status
Resists: 8 - Bug, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Ice, Poison, Steel, Water
Weak: 3 - Electric, Ground, Psychic
How Bad Is That Weakness? – Landorus-T* (Weak to us), Tapu Koko* (weak to us), Zygarde, Krilowatt, Cyclohm, Magnezone, Colossoil* (weak to us), Plasmanta, Rotom-W, Gastrodon, Zapdos, Kyurem-B* (Not STAB), Swampert-M, Garchomp, Gliscor* (weak to us), , Mamoswine* (weak to us), Excadrill* (weak to us), Tapu Lele* (weak to us), Aurumoth, Latios-M, Latias-M, Alakazam-M, Slowking, Hoopa-U, Jirachi, Gallade-M, Ninetales-A* (weak to us)
Hits SE: 5 - Fairy, Fire, Grass, Ground, Rock
Resisted By: Steel, Ghost, and Poison types with a water resist (Steel/Grass, Steel/Water, Ghost/Grass, Poison/Water, Poison/Grass)

First, let's look at our baseline - Pure Water brings to the table 4 resists and only 2 weaknesses, setting a precedent of a defensive typing that is good bringing us at least twice as many resists as we have weaknesses. In terms of "badness" of its two weaknesses we get a fair number of the usual suspects in the form of all grass and electric types that are viable plus Zekrom, and a nice balanced offensive presence. I think the question every other typing needs to face is does this typing significantly increase our resistances and eliminate our bad matchups? And if it doesn't, does it have overwhelming offensive presence to make up for it?

Water/Steel was a natural one to look at next, as the elephant in the room. With 10 resistances and an immunity contrasted with only 3 weaknesses, Water/Steel is simply unmatched in the sheer number of things we can come in on. However, this is where my analysis is important - despite having only one more weakness and nearly four times as many resists, Water/Steel represents a marked increase on the number of threats to our defensive position. Admittedly many of these are weak to us and aren't going to love coming in on a water or steel STAB move, but it limits our ability to come into them and its something we should be aware of that doesn't make Water/Steel quite the auto-pick insta-win I assumed. Despite that I like it a lot, as it is the best type at taking on M-Crucibelle thanks to being immune to Gunk Shot, resistant to Head Smash, and one of the few typings we can select to only be hit neutrally by Wood Hammer. That's just one 'mon but it is a big one that this typing counters better than any other.

That being said, Water/Ground is my winner. The merits of this typing are well-known, but it finds all things in balance, with the best overall ratio of immunities and resists to weaknesses (4:1), the fewest number of "threats" in the meta since it only needs to worry about the handful of Grass 'mons, and the great offensive pressure such a typing could bring (since we have discussed our Water starter being defensive but still having an offensive presence, as opposed to Toxapex). I think it is inarguably the best type, and the real dilemmas are more ones of process and optics - how can we make potentially two X/Ground types and get that through a vote? And more pointedly, how can we make a Pokemon that fulfills our coordination concept, differentiates itself from Gastrodon, Swampert (itself a starter), and several generations ago star Quagsire while also not being too powerful?

Water/Ghost goes in the opposite direction. It has the worst resist ratio and the largest number of things that can threaten it. That all comes at the value of two immunities instead of just one and a monstrous offensive presence - while it technically hits less things for super-effective damage than some other types, it will have very dangerous neutral coverage. As a less explored typing it offers something very different from the rest of these as an offensive defensive 'mon, and I think it should be slated despite its many deficiencies.

Defensively, water-bug offers a nice middle of the road between Steel and Ground, and despite its mediocre resist to weak ratio it has very little in the meta that can directly threaten it. That 4x ground resistance is also preeettty good especially against Lando and Colossoil. My concern for this typing is its offenses. On paper, it looks like it should be good with six types it can hit SE and only specific dual-types resisting it, but take a moment and think about just how many things in the meta ARE those dual types. This thing is going to get walled a lot, and rocks weakness on a defensive 'mon is also not a thing to celebrate. I don't want to throw this typing out as there are some pros and currently both the Water/Bugs in game are low BST 'mons with bad gimmicks, but there's a lot of risks we'll need to address.

I will be real; I almost forgot to include Water/Poison and had to circle back rather than edit it. It has a lot in common with steel; slightly less resists but a similar profile with plenty of 'mons capable of threatening us on paper while we neutralize our Grass weakness in exchange for introducing a Ground weakness. Like Steel, it also shows the danger of introducing a ground weakness given the prevalence of powerful grounds in the meta. They are offensively similar as well - both are good at killing fairies so its mostly a matter of hitting Ice versus Grass for SE damage and given our defensive nature, I like the sound of hitting ice especially since so many Grass types have a secondary typing that neutralizes their poison weakness.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Before I begin my post about Fire typings, I would like to say that I support Grass/Fighting on the slate. While it does seem lacking in the mons its hits department, Fighting is a pretty decent typing defensively and its movepool is quite large and can offer many different options for where we can go with ability. Fighting types also tend to get certain typed coverage, which covers our lackluster types to hit. I still think is should be considered as a contender.

I won't be covering the specific type weaknesses and resistances, since hawk has already done a pretty good job of those. If you want those, refer to their posts. I will mostly be talking about the personal feels of the typing and how well I think it would coordinate with an ability for its movepool.

Fire Types I like:

Fire/Electric: As of this post, this is still my favorite fire typing. It does have that major weakness of the ground typing, but a lot of viable CAPs, looking at Mega Crucibelle and Plasmanta, have a similarly crippling weakness and are still completely viable in the metagame. I also think this typing also has a very interesting niche in that it can hit a ton of the Grass-types in the tier. Electric also adds a really diverse possibility of movepool options attached to it, which I think could translate well to the later stages of the process. Possibly the biggest weakness is that this typing is almost guaranteed to get Volt Switch due to its abundance among Electric types, however it is pretty unlikely to actually use it thanks to its large weakness to Stealth Rock, which also generally limits its capabilities as an offensive mon. This is a trait that is carried among most proposed typings for Fire, but I think this is felt most with Fire/Electric.

Fire/Ground: This typing has actually really grown on me. Mega Camerupt almost entirely struggles because of its speed stat, and I think this is a typing that should be re-evaluated in the CAP scope. This is actually one of the few fire-type combinations that is not weak to Stealth Rock, which already offers a major niche in itself as an offensive fire type. It also only has 2 weaknesses, although they are large and common, and has some resistances to some really common types in the metagame like Fairy and Steel. I think where this type really falls flat is that the Ground typing doesn't have many great attacking options besides Earthquake, which generally doesn't synergize well with a ton of abilities since it doesn't really have any secondary effects. However, Earth Power is still totally an option and I have been known to be a hypocrite about movepool synergy sometimes. Finally, this typing has some of the best STAB combinations we have been offered, and I think it would turn into a solid offensive mon.

Fire/Ice: While absolutely a flawed typing due to its connection to the Ice typing, it shouldn't be disregarded and I think would turn into a solid typing. While being unable to break through any of the big bulky Water-types and having a massive weakness to the omnipotent Stealth Rock, the big appeal for me for this type is how it is able to actually beat some of the most common Pokemon in the tier such as Landorus-T, Magearna, Zygarde, and Tomohawk all without having to resort to more than just STABs. Ice types also have a very interesting set of movepool options, possibly giving the opportunity of moves like Freeze-Dry, Blizzard, and even the possibility of an offensive Aurora Veil if we really feel inclined.

Fire/Rock: Its STAB combinations is quite interesting, as it doesn't have to worry about Steel types before spamming Rock moves. I feel this is certainly the least of all the types I like however, just because of how many cons this typing carries. Its weakness are even more damaging than Fire/Ground and Fire/Ice, meaning you would have to play very carefully to use this Pokemon effectively. I also think this type would go in one pretty predictable direct based on its movepool, so I think it is overall a more restrictive type. I still like it though.

Fire/Psychic: This is one I don't know a lot about since it was recently brought up, but I like where it is going in a lot of ways. The STABs are able to complement each other quite well, and they can offer a few great movepool possibilities while still synergizing with abilities. The weaknesses are troublesome though, so I still need time to decide how I feel about it.

Fire types I don't like:

Fire/Flying: While some will actually argue that this is better than some of the types on my like list, I think this choice is mostly down to personal preference. I simply don't like this type nearly as much as the others. Fire/Flying is great coverage and all, but I simply don't like it as much as the ones above. I can see some ways of going with it thanks to its movepool, I think we will confine it down to only one or two that I feel are pretty sufficiently explored.

Fire/Fairy: I have overall been a major opposer to the Fire/Fairy typing for a while, and this dislike has yet too fade. While the typing is quite solid offensively, since they complement each other, I feel that this type specifically stumbles when it comes to movepool. This has a minuscule amount of actually viable offensive moves, meaning that we will be severely limited when it comes to our ability choice for an offensive Pokemon. While the same can be said for Fire/Ice possibly, I think what hurts more is we already have a plethora of offensive fairy types in our metagame, which includes Tapu Koko, Tapu Lele, Magearna, and the freshly minted Jumbao. This tells me that CAPf will struggle to find a niche among both the Fire types, where we have the massively powerful Volkraken and others, but as well as other Fairy types, meaning that our work load will be that much harder to create a sufficiently powerful mon.

Fire/Fighting: While there are a number of good arguments for Fire/Fighting, I think that its just not as interesting as some of the other typings here. Fire/Fighting types traditionally only succeed for a few reasons, the most glaring of those being speed. Emboar sucks because its not fast enough. Blaziken is too good because it can get too fast. Infernape is somewhere in the middle. I feel this would lead to a pretty uninteresting project as a whole, even if it would create a competitively viable Pokemon behind it.


I'm not quite sure how I feel about Fire/Dragon yet, as the typing is solid and the options are there, but I feel it would almost automatically deviate towards once specific course of action. I think I will need more time to digest it and complete develop my thoughts.