Metagame np: SM UU Stage 10.5 - Water Me (weather test)

I think I speak for a good portion of uu players when I say that we should seriously stop suspecting for right now. Me personally, am sick of suspect tests.

In the past 2 or so months we've had 4 suspect tests. Not only is that extremely excessive, but if it was suspect worthy, it should've been done earlier. The choice to suspect Scizor and MAltaria was frankly stupid for the reasoning of "we didn't want to do it earlier so lets squeeze it into the last 5 minutes of the generation". The metagame needs time to develop after a suspect test in order to be considered stable. We dont want a repeat of ORAS OU with the Sableye suspect. Its too late for anymore suspects. Just give up the ghost and let UU enjoy the generation in peace, please.

As far as "nerfing stall", there's nothing you can realm do about it that wont clap the rest of the metagame unless you ban double unaware users, but that's kinda against tiering policy? I don't know, and frankly at this point I could care less. As long as we dont sit through another pointless suspect test.
 

Moutemoute

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Heck yeah, I couldn't agree more.
We need to understand that it's too late, we only have three months left and we will not succeed to "fix" the tier. Like Sickist I'm freaking bored of all this suspect test because this does not allow the tier to stabilize at all. I mean, since may we got 5 suspects (Mega-Sableye, Scizor, Mega-Altaria, Mimikyu and Drizzle + Drought) and it's way too much in my opinion at this point of a generation. As I said in my previous post, could we not take advantage of the last moments of 7th gen UU ?
Even if I do agree that Stall is super good, this has been the case for ages and I do not think a suspect test would change something (+ both EviGaro and Hogg explained why this kind of suspect are shaky af and inadequate with the current tiering policy).

C'mon just enjoy the tier during his last moments :pikuh:
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
The whole line of "it's too late for suspects or bans" has been used in every suspect since Scizor which was what, 3 months ago? I'm so fuc**** tired of people like the posts above saying give up on tiering. Seriously, I and others begged for Scizor to be suspected for over a year so of course it feels very lame to read post after post saying, we can't ban it because it's too late. Now the same logic applies to stall.

If you think the metagame is balanced, I respect that. It would be nice if you engaged with my arguments but you're not obligated to I guess, just let the council spoon feed us then.

If you think the metagame is unbalanced but don't want to tier anyways...I wish you'd try harder.
 

sanguine

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I think I speak for a good portion of uu players when I say that we should seriously stop suspecting for right now. Me personally, am sick of suspect tests.

In the past 2 or so months we've had 4 suspect tests. Not only is that extremely excessive, but if it was suspect worthy, it should've been done earlier. The choice to suspect Scizor and MAltaria was frankly stupid for the reasoning of "we didn't want to do it earlier so lets squeeze it into the last 5 minutes of the generation". The metagame needs time to develop after a suspect test in order to be considered stable. We dont want a repeat of ORAS OU with the Sableye suspect. Its too late for anymore suspects. Just give up the ghost and let UU enjoy the generation in peace, please.

As far as "nerfing stall", there's nothing you can realm do about it that wont clap the rest of the metagame unless you ban double unaware users, but that's kinda against tiering policy? I don't know, and frankly at this point I could care less. As long as we dont sit through another pointless suspect test.
Heck yeah, I couldn't agree more.
We need to understand that it's too late, we only have three months left and we will not succeed to "fix" the tier. Like Sickist I'm freaking bored of all this suspect test because this does not allow the tier to stabilize at all. I mean, since may we got 5 suspects (Mega-Sableye, Scizor, Mega-Altaria, Mimikyu and Drizzle + Drought) and it's way too much in my opinion at this point of a generation. As I said in my previous post, could we not take advantage of the last moments of 7th gen UU ?
Even if I do agree that Stall is super good, this has been the case for ages and I do not think a suspect test would change something (+ both EviGaro and Hogg explained why this kind of suspect are shaky af and inadequate with the current tiering policy).

C'mon just enjoy the tier during his last moments :pikuh:

The tier’s relative equilibrium is the whole reason we are doing suspects, as it’s a stable environment to add and remove things. We’ve never had that in the past. Yes, it’s relatively “balanced”. Yes, we’re reaching late stages. These things don’t really discount the fact that the vast majority of players find that there are a lot of unhealthy elements still in the metagame. You want to enjoy the meta in its current state? Go challenge friends, watch the large amount of tournament replays at your disposal, ask for roomtours without the suspect change etc etc. However, there are those of us who don’t wish to be memed in r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISM (kek), those of us who wish to advance the metagame into a newer, more “fun”, more interesting/engaging state. I don’t really see the point in posting something like this when the whole point of Smogon tiering is to ban and drop until the a large amount of the playerbase is satisfied, and from the looks of it, we aren’t even close to there yet.

Have a wonderful day.
 
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If you think the metagame is unbalanced but don't want to tier anyways...I wish you'd try harder.
You sound like my dad saying that I'm a disappointment.

Anyways, this would be a different boat if you just wanted to suspect one particular thing, which albeit is still requiring yet ANOTHER boring lengthy process, would at least single out a single issue. However, that isn't the case. You want to suspect...stall?

Hey, I think I've seen the OU room newbies talk about this...

This is almost as unpractical as it is broad and just in general very hard to see what you even want.

I personally agree that stall is very good, but aI feel like that's somewhat healthy for the metagame, as it allows players to explore unique stallbreaking options. Heck, who knows, maybe someone will discover the next Nasty Plot Infernape or whatever. Point is, there really isn't a need for a suspect on stall or whatever the hell you want to suspect/"nerf".

Moving back to the "too late for another suspect point", I feel like I should actually explain this time because in my last post..

I didn't explain shit and now I'm the new mocking post of the cancerous discord chat, so hats off to you asshats and to myself for being so bad at explaining.

What I meant is that A. There's nothing really unbalanced or unhealthy atm, which means I feel like a period of not fucking suspecting every damn fucking Pokemon from S -> A+ rank just because its pretty good at what it does (Sciz is actually broke though, so there's that). This "grace" period lets the metagame develop to the point where it can actually full on expose problematic things and allow us to, once more, mind numbingly suspect it and remove it from the tier before the generation ends.

Thanks for reading this longish post, and no hard feelings to anyone. Have a good day.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
You sound like my dad saying that I'm a disappointment.

Anyways, this would be a different boat if you just wanted to suspect one particular thing, which albeit is still requiring yet ANOTHER boring lengthy process, would at least single out a single issue. However, that isn't the case. You want to suspect...stall?



Thanks for reading this longish post, and no hard feelings to anyone. Have a good day.
Nope I didn't say suspect stall, I said suspect Alomomola or Blissey or Regen. There we go, we don't have an argument, I'm glad we agree.

It looks like suspecting Alomomola would have the least disruption to the metagame and to other tiers so that's what I would go for at the moment.

I agree we shouldn't mock each other and I never will and I promise I will always call people out on it.
 
I'm late but I really don't like the "Just enjoy the tier" arguments because the problem is a lot of people AREN'T enjoying the tier now. There's been several aspects of the metagame (Latias, Terrakion, Stall) that have been pointed out as something that have made the tier increasingly harder to build in and difficult to enjoy. I do partially agree that we've had a lot of suspect tests lately, but I think for the wrong reasons. Drought/Drizzle was a very poor choice of suspect test and extending it was an even dumber idea. A lot of people pointed out that it would be more worthwile to fix unhealthy aspects of the metagame we already have rather than try to introduce new aspects. Drizzle/Drought were never going to balance some of the problems people are mentioning. I do think what needs to be the focus now is putting the metagame into an enjoyable state rather than trying to spice it up, which I think a lot of people are guessing is the reason why there's so many suspects. I like our current metagame, but I think it wouldn't change much and honestly maybe even be a little bit better if we just did a little bit of housekeeping and put some things to rest before the end of the gen. Speaking of which, I also am not fond of "end of the gen" arguments because there's some mons on the chopping block that people have wanted to test for almost a goddamn YEAR at this point and the only reason we haven't is because OU keeps dumping garbage on us. We literally have the prime opportunity to test anything we want right in front of us, without any more interference from a tier shift or whatever, a golden chance to put some people's fears to rest and try and fix unhealthy aspects of the metagame, and I'd prefer not to see it wasted twiddling our thumbs until Sword and Shield comes out. As it stands, a large amount of people are dissatisfied with the current state of affairs and rather than wait for someone to find some tech or miracle cure to all our ailments, we should work on addressing some of the problems people have with the tier.
 

Wigglytuff

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Sickist Moutemoute

I think the 2-3 responses you got adequately covered this point:
I'm freaking bored of all this suspect test because this does not allow the tier to stabilize at all.
The metagame needs time to develop after a suspect test in order to be considered stable.
Pif et. al responded to this with
The whole line of "it's too late for suspects or bans" has been used in every suspect since Scizor which was what, 3 months ago? I'm so fuc**** tired of people like the posts above saying give up on tiering. Seriously, I and others begged for Scizor to be suspected for over a year so of course it feels very lame to read post after post saying, we can't ban it because it's too late. Now the same logic applies to stall.
which is a fair argument.

But even practically speaking, how does suspecting existing elements in the metagame (Terrak lati common components of stall etc) prevent the tier from stabilizing? We (the people posting in this thread for future potential suspects) are not talking about unbanning UUBLs; we're talking about suspecting current existing elements. If those elements are not found to be banworthy, then they'll continue to exist, just as they have for months or possibly years (idk i'm too new to know when these mons were in uu), and nothing changes. If those elements are found to be banworthy, then that should take precedence over whatever stability is bought by keeping banworthy Pokemon in the tier. This argument just feels flimsy to me in the absence of calls to retest UUBLs.
 
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Interesting enough you can still run an modified version of Christos team if you replace an Move on torkoal with Sunny Day but it's not guaranteed at that point sun for some may or may not be worth it.
 
Im getting ptsd from witnessing the amount of people refusing to adress the points pif and adaam are making. I honestly think its just because what they are saying are indisputable facts. Just to add another thing I find problematic with how strong stall is as a playstyle:

If you want to have a shot at beating a well played stall you HAVE to start the teambuilding process with a stallbreaker. Stallbreakers are generally not very splashable and If you think adding NP infernape without any afterthough at the end of the teambuilding process gives you an out vs stall you are sorely mistaken. You need something that can last long and repeatedly switch into toxics and Stosses (often roost scizor), and you need an offensive rocker that can keep them up (often krookodile) and you have to have some elaborate plan on how to bust trough alo/quag/bliss. Examples on what ive Personally used are manual sun, pursuit lo bish together with work up primarinium Z and future sight slowking w/ zap cannon and another breaker. This is all very farfetched stuff, and I would never ever use this shit if I didnt have to in order to have good stall MU.

Lets say you wanted to use something fun. Maybe build a team around mega Absol or Mega Blastoise. Honestly the stall MU is out the window already. You cant build teams around these mons that lets you deal with the multitude of threats in the tier while simultaneaously being able to deal with stall. Its just not possible. Because you started with a mon with terrible defensive typing, and now you also have to add a stallbreaker and some backup for typical stall builds. It just aint happening. So naturally the consequense is like Adaam said.
People start gambling with MU. They know this person never uses stall. "Ah then I can just ignore the MU". If they know the opponent has a history of using stall, then suddenly there is a virizion on the field. What I find to be very shocking is how pearls opponents in UU open are unable to bring teams that fare well vs stall even though they are in the late rounds of a big tour. Hes bringing the same fucking team over and over and his opponents cannot for the life of them figure a way to get past it. This is propably because they dont have friends who are able to pilot stall or have had the fortune of facing pif enough times on the ladder. Which is understandable. Very few people bother to learn how to properly use stall. Which is a part of the problem I think. Because you beat a couple of terrible ladder players who uses stall does not mean stall isnt OP.
 
I'm not an avid stall player so I honestly can't speak from that perspective, but I can still provide some thoughts as an offense player when it comes to dealing with this matchup. I also just wanted to mention that I don't see a problem with having more suspect tests if it is going to benefit the tier. While I can understand some people want to enjoy the current meta these suspects really don't have a massive impact on it. The only one that has done so was weather because we were testing a subject from UUBL, which ended up warping the meta a bit. The other suspects like Scizor and Mega Altaria had no impact on changing ladder or meta experience unless you consider running into some experienced players on their climb a hindrance to your enjoyment. Even if we only have a few months left, people seem to forget that this gen will still exist once gen 8 begins so I very much disagree with the 'we have no time left' arguments. Changes to improve the meta can still be carried on and the meta can continue to adapt and settle beyond its time. I have seen some interesting discussions on things that might be worthwhile to suspect being Latias and Terrakion, which I wouldn't be opposed to testing if the community wanted it but I myself am kind of indifferent about it. Though I do believe there is some issue regarding there being too much to try and handle when building a team.

Anyways regarding stall, I agree that the playstyle is a pretty strong right now to the point that I kind of just settle for hoping for a better MU. A lot of people have already shared replays of high-level play struggling to break stall and shown statistics to showcase this also. Imo it isn't feasible to be able to check the rest of the meta while incorporating all the countermeasures you need to combat everything on stall. In most cases, offensive teams incorporate one stallbreaker like Infernape and Lucario with maybe some support from certain variants of Scizor or Mega Altaria etc. but even then it isn't easy to break through the common stall cores. A lot of these stallbreakers in general just can't be so easily slotted into a team. With the introduction of SpD Pyuku walling the other spectrum of stallbreakers like Infernape and Togekiss, it becomes more apparent that your ability to break stall will just be a coinflip on the team and your opponent misplaying drastically to breakthrough. The way it feels to me is that there is more emphasis on hoping your opponent gives you the opening to break than getting yourself into a position to do so, which does feel pretty shitty. An offense player can look to make aggressive doubles to keep up pressure, but there is only so much traction that can be made off of these plays without adequate support like Toxic Spikes and offensive entry hazard users like Krookodile with Taunt support. All of which you can't solely dedicate onto a team without screwing yourself over in every other MU. As Mysil mentioned if you wish to build around nicher stuff in the tier like Mega Sceptile, Shaymin, or w/e else you probably have to just forfeit most of the stall matchups because they don't provide enough to a composition to pressure stall and provide enough support to handle most of the meta.

As it stands I am kind of in the dark as to what about stall is actually the problem as I am unable to pinpoint whether it is Alomomola, Blissey, one of the Unaware users etc. I only really use stall on some req runs but even then I am not a very good user of stall at that. So I unfortunately cannot speak on what about stall actually could be nerfed to make it less oppressive. But I would like to see something looked at if it gives teambuilding a little more freedom because I believe this is a huge thing for making a meta healthier. I'm very interested in the current discussions and hope to read more posts regarding this subject.
 

Moutemoute

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Alright I think people actually didn't understand what I meant to say. I didn't say that I like or dislike the current metagame, actually I struggle a lot to build effective teams atm but I would like to point out a major issue.

Some players acknowledge that Stall is atm a major issue because it would be too powerful and hard to deal with. While I agree with that I don't think we can actually fix that issue. Indeed some players said that Alomomola may be the problem so we could ban it but it would't change anything imo. pokeisfun has built some nasty stall teams recently and some of them don't have Alomomola (please correct me pif if I'm wrong but I do remember that you beat me several times on the ladder recently with some non-Alomomola Stall). So he has already demonstrated that a Stall can be really good without Alomomola. The ban of "Unaware" or the restriction of one user per team looks like a bad idea too and it's actually against the tiering policy. We can ban Blissey but then it means the end of Stall in UU since there isn't any Pokemon which would be able to replace Blissey in Stall. So what do we do ? I don't think we can nerf Stall effectively without condemning this archetype..

Since so much people are complaining, I do think that it's our fault and our failure if the tier is like that. We haven't been able to fix the tier and make it enjoyable for as much players as possible, it's not only the fault of the council, neither of our tier leaders and neither of us. All of us are responsible. I know some players will disagree with this and say that they made some posts to highlight some major issues in the past but it's our fault if we didn't take it enough into account.

I know many of you guys hate the argument "it's too late to do something" but I do believe it's a fact and no matter what we do, it will not change before the end of this generation. That's why I think it's a waste of time and effort since at the end, the tier will not be clean and stable. I know it sucks and I don't like that but I prefer to enjoy the tier as much as I can even if I have to play some gimmicks in order to beat Stall rather than waste time for a hypothetical ideal...
 
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Assuming banning Blissey is the death of stall is the definition of theorymonning imo. Stalls with Audino, Umbreon, Cresselia etc as sp def walls havent been looked into at all so whos to say stall would become unviable. There is no doubt stall would become worse, but thats kinda the point.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
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I think if you’re looking at it as “we must take something that literally every stall team uses in order to nerf stall in UU” then that’s incorrect imo. You don’t need to take something from every single stall team for it to represent a nerf to the playstyle as a whole. Yes not every usable stall currently uses Alomomola but a significant enough number of them do, and in particular those that have seen the most success in tournaments (Pearl stall and the Altaria Nihilego stall).

It’s my firm belief that if you remove Alomomola, taking away that safety net of Wish+Regenerator+mostly risk free Scizor pivot would limit the way stall builds can be built in the future, to the point where it becomes simpler to prep for them because there aren’t as many viable builds running around. It’s as much the variety of stall teams that you can face as the strength of any individual stall team that makes them so tricky to prep for in this tier, for me anyway.

I’m still not entirely decided on which of Blissey/Quagsire/Alomomola I think would be the best choice because I can make cases for any of those 3, but I definitely don’t think anything should be ruled out just because they don’t see 100% usage on stall.

I should also clarify that I haven’t found it reasonable in any tier to expect to automatically be able to get a good stall matchup however and whatever you build, sometimes you will build around concepts that will be great or solid enough for 90% of matchups but leave you with a not so good stall matchup. Right now I think the balance is way too far over to the stall side of things though, in that it seems super difficult to get a good matchup even vs individual stall teams, let alone against multiple.
 
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While banning Blissey would limit stall, it would also come with heavy collateral damage to fatter balance builds, and specs breakers like Primarina would easily get out of hand. This applies even more so to Regenerator - Amoonguss does a good job at keeping many threats in check, and to a lesser extent so does Slowbro. Banning just Blissey or just Regenerator will definitely cause more problems for the tier than it solves. I agree with pif that maybe the best way to deal with stall without affecting the rest of the tier as much is to suspect Alomomola. Another possible way would be to resuspect stallbreakers from UUBL Xurkitree anyone? but that of course is a very iffy idea.
 
While banning Blissey would limit stall, it would also come with heavy collateral damage to fatter balance builds, and specs breakers like Primarina would easily get out of hand. This applies even more so to Regenerator - Amoonguss does a good job at keeping many threats in check, and to a lesser extent so does Slowbro. Banning just Blissey or just Regenerator will definitely cause more problems for the tier than it solves. I agree with pif that maybe the best way to deal with stall without affecting the rest of the tier as much is to suspect Alomomola. Another possible way would be to resuspect stallbreakers from UUBL Xurkitree anyone? but that of course is a very iffy idea.
As someone who has never used Blissey ever I have to say I disagree with this. To deal with prim on offense you either need alot of strong pokemon that dont let primarina in, or if you happen to use something like Hydreigon which is an example of something that invites in prim then u have to add tenta, amoongus or empoleon. Balance teams have to have one of those three otherwise prim becomes an issue. And yes I know primarina can use psychic but a healthy metagame shouldnt let you have surefire stops to everything. If you let your opponent get in a slow powerful breaker then yes there should be some repercussions, its only natural. Stall is different, because the playstyle relies on always having switch ins to everything. But say sp def cress for example, can easily eat hydro pumps from Primarina. But it has to waste a turn to recover after, which is more balanced than Blissey just eating any special hit as a snack and throwing out status and Stosses.
 
I’ve been out of UU for a while, but I still lurk- I think Blissey is the best test just because pif has shown the variety stall can bring, meaning Alo isn’t necessary, and I think Regenerator would not be a good choice for the tier as a whole.
 

Moutemoute

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Assuming banning Blissey is the death of stall is the definition of theorymonning imo. Stalls with Audino, Umbreon, Cresselia etc as sp def walls havent been looked into at all so whos to say stall would become unviable. There is no doubt stall would become worse, but thats kinda the point.
Blissey is the main core of Stall. I have never seen a good Stall without Blissey because there is absolutely not a single Pokemon which can do the same than Blissey. You're talking about Audino which is a garbage Pokemon which force you to get rid of Mega-Altaria or Mega-Aggron or things like Umbreon or Cresselia but none of this Pokemon can replace Blissey, not even a little bit. Blissey has Natural Cure, great instant healing recovery thanks to Soft-Boiled (which is a million time better than Cresselia's shitty recovery Moonlight), access to Stealth Rock, Wish or Heal Bell. How can you compare Cresselia to Blissey ? Just because they can handle Pokemon on the special side ? C'mon.. Max SpD Cresselia takes about 40-45% on Hydro Pump from Specs Primarina which force it to recover.. but wait it only has 8 PPs to heal itself. Even Moonblast is troublesome because it deals about 35-40%.

I mean, you said you never played Blissey so how can you know if its ban would not be the end of Stall teams, seems a bit ironic right ?
 
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Kink

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Boredom of the process of Suspect Test is not an element worthy of consideration. We don't make tiering decisions based on shit being boring or fun. If you're bored of the suspect process, go find another game to play. This is how we do things. We also have a fundamental responsibility to follow our tiering policies when pushing for or arguing against any tiering change. Boredom of the suspect process or changing the metagame to be more fun is NOT part of our tiering policies.

The moderation team hasn't been too strict regarding these posts because we're at the tail-end of gen 7 and frankly, any tests we're doing now is because a CONSENSUS has been reached via the last few suspects, particularly amongst the UU council, on how we're going to close out gen 7 uu. If you think that process is boring, no one is asking you to participate. If you think the process is excessive, you can make your reasons known here but you should also expect people to address and potentially disagree/poke holes in any substantively weak argumentation.

Fair warning to those participating in the discussion, I'm going to personally be deleting posts that focus on whether or not people are bored or having fun. Pokemon isn't fun you losers, this is WORK.

Edit: discussion regarding Blissey need to be reasonable and well-thought, otherwise the post will be immediately removed.
 
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Freeroamer

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So, if you really believe that stall is unhealthy in UU, the first step would be to look at individual ‘mons such as Blissey, Alomomola or Quagsire. I’m not sure that I would personally support a ban of any of these, but I wouldn’t veto a suspect test if there was strong community support for one.
edit: no more dumb discussions about suspecting blissey. Not going to happen.
Can we get a clear line on this?
 
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prikshit

Banned deucer.
Why So Much Passive Aggressive In The Last Page... Please Let Us Remember We Are All Friends And Striving For A Better UnderUsed Tier Together... No More Sewage Attitudes Please I Beg.... Stall Arguers Do Bring Up Some Good Points And I Look Forward To Seeing The Exploration Of This Discussion :smogthink:
 
rip weather i kinda enjoyed while it lasted (iam new to ps and this was my first weather team experience) but tbh i agree with the ban,mega doom is op with and nasty plot can reach to 1000+ spa and it also makes venusaur and speed demon instead of a tank (growth would also make it super strong).while drought was weaker than drizzle,drought was too stronk for uu,and drizzle needed no explanation its super strong
 

Moutemoute

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Alright folks.. As I said before, I'm not one of those who firmly believe that we should nerf Stall because it's a too good archetype and I have already outlined why BUT I'm not a complete dummy and that's why I've used some Stall teams on the ladder to see and understand the issue raised by some players. Unlike Clefable or pokeisfun I trully believe that Blissey and/or Regenerator are not an issue for Stall teams and I still believe that a possible ban of one of those would be something worse than anything else for the tier. However, I agree with Adaam and itsjustdrew when the said that Alomomola may be an issue with Stall teams and I'm gonna try my best to explain why.

Alomomola is an incredible Pokemon because it has a great Bulk and type but mostly because of its ability Regenerator which allows it to pivot into strong threats in order to check them or scout them. For instance, Alomomola will be most of the time, the prime choice in order to check or scout a opponent's Scizor because it can handle really well its Choice Band set but also scout with Protect a Buginium Z Scizor. One of the main reason it's such a strong answer to Scizor is also because Scizor will rarely be able to nuke Alomomola because its only option to punish Alomomola pretty hard is by using a +2 Savage Spin-Out :

+2 252+ Atk Scizor Savage Spin-Out (140 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 417-492 (86.6 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Even LO Bug Bite Scizor or Z-Superpower Scizor struggle to deal enough damages to Alomomola in order to OHKO it :

+2 252+ Atk Scizor All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 377-444 (78.3 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bug Bite vs. 40 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 348-411 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Thanks to Alomomola, Stall teams are able to check effectively threats which abuse of Volt-Turn such as Scizor or Terrakion. Since Alomomola has access to Wish + Regenerator it can also opt for another item instead of its Leftovers like Rocky Helmet which is even better to punish U-turn users and especially Scizor. I think players who are used to playing Stall teams will agree with me on the following point :
"Stall without Alomomola requires "more skills" in order to be as effective as possible because they're not as good as Stall with Alomomola to handle well played Volt-Turn"
Indeed, without Alomomola to sponge hits from U-turn abusers like Scizor, Stall teams need to use other stratagems which are more iffy in my opinion. You can play Counter Quagsire to punish U-turn but it means your Quagsire is already in front of Scizor. While Quagsire may be effective to deal with Scizor, it doesn't like at all to come again and again on U-turn because this forces it to recover more often. Amoonguss is another user of Regenerator but it doesn't have the same physical Bulk than Alomomola neither Wish+Protect (and sadly Synthesis is only 8 PPs) which means it's not as good to deal with Volt-Turn. While there is a plethora of Pokemon which can be used in Stall teams, there isn't a single one in my opinion which punish U-turn users as hard as Alomomola. However, it's possible to build really effective Stall teams without Alomomola and contrary to Blissey which is in my opinion mandatory in any kind of Stall teams, it's not the case of Alomomola which can be replace by a second Unaware users like Pyukumuku or another fat Pokemon. In my opinion, a ban of Alomomola would be a reasonable nerf for Stall teams because even if it would affect their effectiveness, it would not make them unplayable or non-viable.

As I said before, I don't think we should nerf Stall because I do believe that Underused has enough tools to pressure them. I also believe that it's normal for people to be prepared to deal with Stall teams because they are threats just like Scizor, Latias, Terrakion or Spikes HO. But if we have to do it, I firmly believe that a Suspect Test of Alomomola is the best option we have so far and the less invasive for the future of the tier.


I'm sorry for my behavior in my last few posts. I didn’t mean to be derogatory or hurtful, I was just pissed and salty to see a new topic talking about "ban and/or suspect test something" when we already had so many in a short amont of time. I do believe the current Underused is great and probably one of the best we've had in a long time and that's why I was kinda fed-up..
 
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