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- Thread starter dhelmise
- Start date
I think that it's pretty obvious that they're joking. Context is sometimes hard to read over a screenshot in which you cut it out not showing the entire conversation. Just a thought...
Attachments
this thread is a trainwreck
anyway
im nominating twice's what is love as a certified Queer Song, it bops and slaps
anyway
im nominating twice's what is love as a certified Queer Song, it bops and slaps
I think this is the exact kind of post that people like crux or starry blanket are posting about. any time any actual discussion or self reflection is brought up someone (usually a core cabal of predictable users) responds with some quip along the veins of yikes sweetie and things move on
I also think the above discord screen is not only really cringy and a pretty poor excuse for a joke it also demonstrates an absurd level of professionalism expected from a community leader and discord server owner. regardless if it was a joke or not its not appropriate for a community leader and ps admin to ever post about having a 13yo gf; especially considering the history smogon has of harboring actual grooming pedophiles in its leadership and how the server (idk for sure but i can make an educated guess) is hosting a median age of probably 15-16
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literally nothing good comes from arguing in the thread, its just... arguing over irrelevant points, people get angry fast, out of context screenshots, personal attacks etc etc etc etc. it serves no purpose except to call people out and the whole thing couldve been resolved as a discord gc/smog conversation/etc
Given Haunter was literally an admin during his predation there should definitely be higher expectations and standards placed and enforced upon those in leadership positions and positions of power over youth, regardless of intent.
bicurious isn't a sexuality. it's a label supposed to convey that someone is questioning their sexuality, usually from a starting point of identifying as straight to thinking one can be bi, as that's the large majority of people who find that label fitting. it's also used a lot by people who really want to fit in with LGBT circles for whatever reason but aren't actually LGBT; not saying that's necessarily the user dice is talking about but it's a very real thing, and i don't see why a gay dude can't be at least cautious with someone that posted something like that while using the 'bicurious' label.
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Heyo! That's me you're referring to, and I'd like to clear some things up. First of all, you've provoked some great discussion in PokePride. Just about everyone now agrees that "questioning" is a better term than "bicurious" for various reasons. I'd also like to note that I've been questioning my sexuality pretty heavily since early fall, but being in a heterosexual relationship for much of the time until now hadn't given me much time to reflect as much as I'd like to have had. I've expressed my questioning in sexuality with users like Nalei since December as well. I assure you that this is not a new thing I manufactured in order to "gain attention" or somehow shirk responsibility for what can be seen as an offensive meme. I originally joined PokePride to both make new friends and ask questions about what to call what I feel, and I'm devastated to have failed in the former in this instance.
In reference to this: I found this in r/copypasta; I did not create it. I had meant it as a meme in the channel that it was posted in: #memes. It was clearly interpreted differently than I thought it would be, and I'd like to apologize for that. I was under the impression that it was rather unoffensive and blatantly ironic, which seems to be pretty standard in terms of memes. I absolutely did not mean to offend anyone and I'm sorry if my intent was different than the effect. I will certainly be more careful with what I post in the future.
neutrality grants you.. that. as acceptable. in a queer chat. just a joke though!
I was also fairly defensive after being confronted for that meme, not because I cared to "defend my innocence" in what I posted (Again, my goal was never to offend you or any others and I apologize if I did), but because of how I was approached.
I'm sure that you can recognize that this is fairly confrontational and not necessarily a great strategy in promoting intelligent discourse. I don't mind being called out for bad taste, especially when I hadn't recognize how offensive such a meme could be, but I do think that you may have been better with more effective results from the moderation team if a slightly different method of approach was utilized. You told me that my shitty meme was deliberately intended to be, which it was not. I take my position as an ally (despite questioning my sexuality, I'm currently just an ally) very seriously, and I don't mean to offend the LGBT+ community. I also refuse to be selfish enough to deny my wrongdoing behind my interpretation of my own innocence. In response to your callout, I apologize for being defensive when confronted. I was incredibly concerned that anyone would think that I was being homophobic, however unintentionally, because of the content of the copypasta.
I would like to hypothesize as to why discourse on this meme was never able to happen. The moderation team in PokePride was more immediately concerned about the public callout assuming that I was deliberately being homophobic or insensitive, which I was absolutely not. I apologize for any impression I could give otherwise, but I solely had meant to post something I had recently found on reddit without understanding how it could offend. I think that a discussion about the perceived offensiveness of such a copypasta could've certainly come to fruition if it had be approached in a slightly different tone, perhaps one that takes into account that the user never meant to offend. I also think that your posts here today have helped promote discussion in PokePride about being more open to debates.
I hope that I helped clear some things up with you dice. I apologize for my wrongdoings and hope that I have given everyone here another perspective.
I’m sorry but did you guys really think making a Discord server full of people within Smogon about this topic (as much as us LGBTQ+ folk need to stick together) would be a great idea? Of course it would come crashing down with bad users, moderation, and the circlejerking that comes in servers like those. I’m not saying an idea like that will never work ever but it’s really not that difficult to see why an idea like PokePride doesn’t work in practice.
just a note on behalf of cong moderation:
owing to the fact that the server in question is advertised in the OP of this thread, i fully support crux (and by extension dice) in their right to have a forum to scrutinise the administration of the server. it would be extremely dangerous to suppress potential dissent in these situations in light of what has previously happened on this website and its associated websites, assuming said dissent is genuine of nature. the server being linked in the OP, and on showdown, means there must be some accountability for actions within. so, with regards to mismanagement in that server, i am perfectly happy with those discussions taking place itt. i mean genuine discussion though, this is not a green-light to start throwing shit at each other, but i think crux's post in particular showcases how you can air a grievance in a genuine manner.
i steer clear of this mostly, as i do not like telling people how to run their safe spaces, but i am also not comfortable with advertising a server that is potentially questionable in my forum. i have no power on ps, so i cannot change anything there, but if the general community view is that this server is not fit for purpose then its advertisement in the OP will be removed. discussions like this are a good way to gauge the community opinion. if anyone more involved in the smogon lgbt community wants to get in touch and offer their thoughts, that would be welcomed.
nevertheless, i cannot stress this enough, if accusations go beyond that of mismanagement then i would implore those with said accusations to seek out site leadership immediately.
owing to the fact that the server in question is advertised in the OP of this thread, i fully support crux (and by extension dice) in their right to have a forum to scrutinise the administration of the server. it would be extremely dangerous to suppress potential dissent in these situations in light of what has previously happened on this website and its associated websites, assuming said dissent is genuine of nature. the server being linked in the OP, and on showdown, means there must be some accountability for actions within. so, with regards to mismanagement in that server, i am perfectly happy with those discussions taking place itt. i mean genuine discussion though, this is not a green-light to start throwing shit at each other, but i think crux's post in particular showcases how you can air a grievance in a genuine manner.
i steer clear of this mostly, as i do not like telling people how to run their safe spaces, but i am also not comfortable with advertising a server that is potentially questionable in my forum. i have no power on ps, so i cannot change anything there, but if the general community view is that this server is not fit for purpose then its advertisement in the OP will be removed. discussions like this are a good way to gauge the community opinion. if anyone more involved in the smogon lgbt community wants to get in touch and offer their thoughts, that would be welcomed.
nevertheless, i cannot stress this enough, if accusations go beyond that of mismanagement then i would implore those with said accusations to seek out site leadership immediately.
Hi! Time to share my story I guess...
For those who don't know me, Hi My names Zodiax (or Graham, I don't mind what you call me) and I'm a Bisexual male living in England.
I knew from a young age that I wasn't straight. Probably when I was 11. I was mainly attracted to guys (just remember seeing attractive males over the media and having a different feeling towards them). However at that time when I was in a rough high school I kept that side of myself quiet.
I was a quiet person when I was younger, mainly because I knew that coming out wasn't going to be easy for me and was holding me back. Sadly, I didn't choose come out to my family. A person that I hooked up with when I was 18 did it in revenge. It was a guy that I met once, and it was okay, we hooked up and had a drink afterwards, I said I would text him the day after, told him that even though it was a fun night that I don't think now is right for me to get into something serious as I wasn't out to my family. He texted back saying "Totally get it, have a good one". To then a few days later my sister calling me with a shocked expression on her tone of voice over the phone saying "Graham are you gay? I just got a message from this guy with screenshots from your number" and that's when I came out as Bi to my sister.
My sister and I talked it over and I said that I would come out to my dad in my own time (sadly my mother passed away when I was 13 but I'm sure she knows in spirit). So fast forward to when I was 20. I had a boyfriend, still not out to my dad. My ex was a DJ and he would have gigs up in London on a Saturday night and occasionally I would go up with him to support him and have drinks along side with him. One Saturday I was working but I said to him to text me when he got there, he did, I replied saying have a good night and text me tomorrow morning. I didn't hear from him, and got worried. I went into work on Monday to find the police there asking for me. My ex was declared missing. Obviously I was distraught, and after 5 days of him being declared missing he was found, quiet, wouldn't speak to anyone. He was found on the Friday morning. I get a call from one of his friends on the Saturday, telling me "Why the fuck is [ex boyfriends name] going back up to London to gig" and at that point my ex hasn't messaged me once in a full week. In my mind, I went a bit psycho and I went up to London. at 11pm, to go to his club. But wait, I have no money, its late and how am I supposed to get to the station? At that point I needed help from my dad, and that's when I had to come out to him and explained everything. His response was "I don't care what sexuality you are, what I care about is that you're going to get the last train to sort this out." and honestly, I never expected that reaction from him. It made me feel so happy and privileged to have a family like mine. (long story short, wasn't my boyfriend for long, as when I got there I saw him making out with one of the club managers outside, both of their expressions when they saw me were hilarious).
Fast forward to now... 24 years old, still thankful for the many friendships I have made through the LGBTQ+ community, not just in real life, but mainly on this forum, and on PS, where my friendships are still growing, hearing new stories from my old friends and even people that I just knew of and honestly being so proud of them for sharing their experiences. For those who have also supported me on here for being my true self, thank you.
What I will say is that I'm a firm believer of everything happens for a reason, so if you are struggling to come out and need time, take it. If you need to speak to someone, I'm sure one of the amazing people from this community are more than happy to listen (I certainly am), and enjoy life. Thanks for reading :)
For those who don't know me, Hi My names Zodiax (or Graham, I don't mind what you call me) and I'm a Bisexual male living in England.
I knew from a young age that I wasn't straight. Probably when I was 11. I was mainly attracted to guys (just remember seeing attractive males over the media and having a different feeling towards them). However at that time when I was in a rough high school I kept that side of myself quiet.
I was a quiet person when I was younger, mainly because I knew that coming out wasn't going to be easy for me and was holding me back. Sadly, I didn't choose come out to my family. A person that I hooked up with when I was 18 did it in revenge. It was a guy that I met once, and it was okay, we hooked up and had a drink afterwards, I said I would text him the day after, told him that even though it was a fun night that I don't think now is right for me to get into something serious as I wasn't out to my family. He texted back saying "Totally get it, have a good one". To then a few days later my sister calling me with a shocked expression on her tone of voice over the phone saying "Graham are you gay? I just got a message from this guy with screenshots from your number" and that's when I came out as Bi to my sister.
My sister and I talked it over and I said that I would come out to my dad in my own time (sadly my mother passed away when I was 13 but I'm sure she knows in spirit). So fast forward to when I was 20. I had a boyfriend, still not out to my dad. My ex was a DJ and he would have gigs up in London on a Saturday night and occasionally I would go up with him to support him and have drinks along side with him. One Saturday I was working but I said to him to text me when he got there, he did, I replied saying have a good night and text me tomorrow morning. I didn't hear from him, and got worried. I went into work on Monday to find the police there asking for me. My ex was declared missing. Obviously I was distraught, and after 5 days of him being declared missing he was found, quiet, wouldn't speak to anyone. He was found on the Friday morning. I get a call from one of his friends on the Saturday, telling me "Why the fuck is [ex boyfriends name] going back up to London to gig" and at that point my ex hasn't messaged me once in a full week. In my mind, I went a bit psycho and I went up to London. at 11pm, to go to his club. But wait, I have no money, its late and how am I supposed to get to the station? At that point I needed help from my dad, and that's when I had to come out to him and explained everything. His response was "I don't care what sexuality you are, what I care about is that you're going to get the last train to sort this out." and honestly, I never expected that reaction from him. It made me feel so happy and privileged to have a family like mine. (long story short, wasn't my boyfriend for long, as when I got there I saw him making out with one of the club managers outside, both of their expressions when they saw me were hilarious).
Fast forward to now... 24 years old, still thankful for the many friendships I have made through the LGBTQ+ community, not just in real life, but mainly on this forum, and on PS, where my friendships are still growing, hearing new stories from my old friends and even people that I just knew of and honestly being so proud of them for sharing their experiences. For those who have also supported me on here for being my true self, thank you.
What I will say is that I'm a firm believer of everything happens for a reason, so if you are struggling to come out and need time, take it. If you need to speak to someone, I'm sure one of the amazing people from this community are more than happy to listen (I certainly am), and enjoy life. Thanks for reading :)
I should share some interesting parts of my life too.
Im just a 9 1/2 year old boy going through life and Ive had experiences and learned many things.
Ive experienced how it feels to get something you really ever wanted
Ive experienced how it feels to get scammed
Ive experienced my inner passion(IRL I keep a straight face but y'know, Im passionate)
Ive experienced anger,sadness,happiness,embarrasment,annoyance and boredom
Im also hesitant to tell people I have a stuffed bunny plush so I dont get embarrassed.
Im just a 9 year old growing through life and Im surprisingly smart
I wanted to share my story so yall would know facts about me and know how I live.
Regardless of my passion, I can get set off easily by things you would/wouldnt understand.
Ive never fallen in love all my literal life.
There is my story, hope you understand.
Im just a 9 1/2 year old boy going through life and Ive had experiences and learned many things.
Ive experienced how it feels to get something you really ever wanted
Ive experienced how it feels to get scammed
Ive experienced my inner passion(IRL I keep a straight face but y'know, Im passionate)
Ive experienced anger,sadness,happiness,embarrasment,annoyance and boredom
Im also hesitant to tell people I have a stuffed bunny plush so I dont get embarrassed.
Im just a 9 year old growing through life and Im surprisingly smart
I wanted to share my story so yall would know facts about me and know how I live.
Regardless of my passion, I can get set off easily by things you would/wouldnt understand.
Ive never fallen in love all my literal life.
There is my story, hope you understand.
so many experiences, and yet they didn't think to read the rules...
Thank you shade for posting that, as I feel more comfortable coming forward with what I have to say. I was a long time moderator of the Pokepride server, from its inception up until a couple months ago, and have been a member of the server since as well, so I feel as if I can comment fairly on the state of the moderation of the server. The server was in a good state for months actually, I would argue that the initial leadership of Pokepride, albeit inactive, was apt at handling an LGBTQ+ server. Subsequent promotions to some questionable users has made the server unusable for the most part. Pokepride is now a liberal circlejerk masquerading as an LGBTQ+ safe space.
Now what do I mean by that? Well, there are a myriad of reasons Pokepride went downhill, and I'd like to cover them today, if you'll allow me. For starters, I'd like to state that I don't believe this server should be affiliated with Smogon in any way, whether it be linked in the OP as it currently is, or even advertised as the "smogon gay chat". I am friends with a few members of the moderation team, so while I'll be walking on eggshells by posting criticism, it's necessary for you to gain an understanding of what's going on.
The server used to have a defined purpose. We had a place where anyone queer-identifying on Smogon could come and join and interact within a safe environment. That being said, debate was still allowed and not frowned upon. We wouldn't shut down debate if it was kept civil, and I and the other moderators at the time found this to be a good balance. It wasn't perfect, for sure, but it was the best we could do in a server where we were attempting to abide by Smogon's rules and also give anyone LGBTQ+ a place to feel safe and comfortable.
A few months into the server's existence, a user called Asheviere joined. This user is notably a Pokemon Showdown administrator, who is known for being very outspoken, who engaged in anti-queer spaces for years prior to joining the server, and somewhat recently has come to the realisation that she is trans. As soon as Asheviere became an active presence within the discord, the server's quality rapidly went downhill. The first notable thing I recall from Asheviere is her hounding one of our at the time moderators, one of the friendliest, kindest people you've even met, dibs, for being somewhat inactive until he felt pressured to quit.
With this came a ton of changes within the server, I believe after that we promoted Quote, who did a good job at moderating for the most part. There were some times where they would be overbearing and step on people's toes but generally they were fine, and active, so there were no real issues there. We then promoted Robyn, who was a really good candidate, who was kind to the regular users and wasn't overbearing in moderation whatsoever. Another one of our early moderators stepped down soon after, so Quote suggested we promote Asheviere to moderator. I was very strongly against this, I'd known of Asheviere's history and her behaviour in the chat was egregious at times. Despite this, I was the only one to stand against this promotion (other than another one of the moderators who hadn't logged on in the ten hours they were discussing this).
Once Asheviere became a moderator, the server's quality declined significantly. Issues that had never even arisen before were starting to become common. Pokepride regulars were leaving left and right, all stating to me in PMs how much Asheviere ruined the server for them. It wasn't long before Asheviere felt like the leader of the group due to the decisions being made. These decisions made and pushed by Asheviere, are in my humble opinion, the main reason for Pokepride's demise.
So what exactly did Asheviere do that was so negative? Why were people leaving? Well, there were a few notable factors in which I'd like to elaborate on today. I'd like to start by saying I don't doubt Asheviere's ability as a Pokemon Showdown administrator, or her place as a developer, nor is this a personal attack against her. This is solely based on my and other's interactions with her and others within the Pokepride server, and the ability of the moderators to manage a queer safespace such as this.
Firstly, any important debate to have about queer issues was essentially outlawed within Pokepride. As Crux earlier stated, discussions about the negative effect of the military, about Israel's human rights records towards LGBTQ+ people, about how the police force are not our allies; any discussion that actually challenges the liberal status quo the server has set is told to "take that to cong" and immediately stopped. This is a problem for multiple reasons, it for one is instilling a political ideology among the people within the server, but it is also solely politically driven moderating in a queer-space, where the political bias is against the LGBTQ+'s community's best interests. It isn't difficult to see why Asheviere, a 4chan frequenter, is halting any leftist discussion. On a somewhat unrelated note, it's also somewhat disheartening that when people do come to cong they're regularly shut down by people attempting to halt any discussion.
Secondly, Asheviere's behaviour and demeanor are unsuitable for moderation here. She's increasingly antagonistic, views herself as above everyone else within the server, regularly breaks the rules she imposed herself and additionally shittalks regulars frequently in staff channels. Back in the early stages of Pokepride, the moderation team and regular users actually got on well, we'd only really need to ban outright trolls and occasionally bad users but nowhere near to the extent we have now. Anyone who dissents against the liberal status quo, against the poor moderation is outright banned without warning, yet users who are considerably toxic on a regular basis and post stuff that isn't suitable for a safespace by any means are fine, because as long as they're not talking about why Israel is bad or why cops suck, there's no reason to remove them from the environment. This has created a very skewed community.
Lastly, Asheviere's behaviour has impacted how other members of the moderation team, notably Robyn and newcomer Nalei view the server. I'm not going to dwell on these users for too long, as I do consider them my friends but generally they enforce these aforementioned biases, they have no room to speak up to Asheviere, because of how toxic her responses may be. The server's moderation has become very strict, on a server that was initially enjoyable, and it feels like a chore to talk in there anymore. Asheviere attempts to treat this server as if it's PS at times, and like it's 4chan at others. The remainder of the moderation team doesn't bother questioning it.
These reasons alone are not all the wrongdoings of the Pokepride server, but they are what I've chosen to elaborate on today. So that this isn't just a one-sided post, allow me to explain what I love about Pokepride. I love that people have a place to be themselves (for the most part, see above paragraphs) and be able to talk to other queer-identifying people, I love that people feel free to express themselves in whatever way they seem fitting, feel comfortable enough to come out here instead of being closeted and surpressing their feelings. I've met a lot of nice friendly people I would have never met otherwise if not for this server. And for Asheviere, I don't fully believe she intends to do the wrong thing, but her complacency and poor ability as moderator of a safe space should be put into question.
In summary, the Pokepride server was initially a good idea and executed well, but after months of toxic moderation the server's quality has rapidly decreased to the point where any political discussion that is disagreed with by the moderators is instantly shut down in bad faith. I implore the cong moderators to at least remove the link to the server, until the issues Crux, dice and I have mentioned are acknowledged and fixed. Thank you.
Now what do I mean by that? Well, there are a myriad of reasons Pokepride went downhill, and I'd like to cover them today, if you'll allow me. For starters, I'd like to state that I don't believe this server should be affiliated with Smogon in any way, whether it be linked in the OP as it currently is, or even advertised as the "smogon gay chat". I am friends with a few members of the moderation team, so while I'll be walking on eggshells by posting criticism, it's necessary for you to gain an understanding of what's going on.
The server used to have a defined purpose. We had a place where anyone queer-identifying on Smogon could come and join and interact within a safe environment. That being said, debate was still allowed and not frowned upon. We wouldn't shut down debate if it was kept civil, and I and the other moderators at the time found this to be a good balance. It wasn't perfect, for sure, but it was the best we could do in a server where we were attempting to abide by Smogon's rules and also give anyone LGBTQ+ a place to feel safe and comfortable.
A few months into the server's existence, a user called Asheviere joined. This user is notably a Pokemon Showdown administrator, who is known for being very outspoken, who engaged in anti-queer spaces for years prior to joining the server, and somewhat recently has come to the realisation that she is trans. As soon as Asheviere became an active presence within the discord, the server's quality rapidly went downhill. The first notable thing I recall from Asheviere is her hounding one of our at the time moderators, one of the friendliest, kindest people you've even met, dibs, for being somewhat inactive until he felt pressured to quit.
With this came a ton of changes within the server, I believe after that we promoted Quote, who did a good job at moderating for the most part. There were some times where they would be overbearing and step on people's toes but generally they were fine, and active, so there were no real issues there. We then promoted Robyn, who was a really good candidate, who was kind to the regular users and wasn't overbearing in moderation whatsoever. Another one of our early moderators stepped down soon after, so Quote suggested we promote Asheviere to moderator. I was very strongly against this, I'd known of Asheviere's history and her behaviour in the chat was egregious at times. Despite this, I was the only one to stand against this promotion (other than another one of the moderators who hadn't logged on in the ten hours they were discussing this).
Once Asheviere became a moderator, the server's quality declined significantly. Issues that had never even arisen before were starting to become common. Pokepride regulars were leaving left and right, all stating to me in PMs how much Asheviere ruined the server for them. It wasn't long before Asheviere felt like the leader of the group due to the decisions being made. These decisions made and pushed by Asheviere, are in my humble opinion, the main reason for Pokepride's demise.
So what exactly did Asheviere do that was so negative? Why were people leaving? Well, there were a few notable factors in which I'd like to elaborate on today. I'd like to start by saying I don't doubt Asheviere's ability as a Pokemon Showdown administrator, or her place as a developer, nor is this a personal attack against her. This is solely based on my and other's interactions with her and others within the Pokepride server, and the ability of the moderators to manage a queer safespace such as this.
Firstly, any important debate to have about queer issues was essentially outlawed within Pokepride. As Crux earlier stated, discussions about the negative effect of the military, about Israel's human rights records towards LGBTQ+ people, about how the police force are not our allies; any discussion that actually challenges the liberal status quo the server has set is told to "take that to cong" and immediately stopped. This is a problem for multiple reasons, it for one is instilling a political ideology among the people within the server, but it is also solely politically driven moderating in a queer-space, where the political bias is against the LGBTQ+'s community's best interests. It isn't difficult to see why Asheviere, a 4chan frequenter, is halting any leftist discussion. On a somewhat unrelated note, it's also somewhat disheartening that when people do come to cong they're regularly shut down by people attempting to halt any discussion.
Secondly, Asheviere's behaviour and demeanor are unsuitable for moderation here. She's increasingly antagonistic, views herself as above everyone else within the server, regularly breaks the rules she imposed herself and additionally shittalks regulars frequently in staff channels. Back in the early stages of Pokepride, the moderation team and regular users actually got on well, we'd only really need to ban outright trolls and occasionally bad users but nowhere near to the extent we have now. Anyone who dissents against the liberal status quo, against the poor moderation is outright banned without warning, yet users who are considerably toxic on a regular basis and post stuff that isn't suitable for a safespace by any means are fine, because as long as they're not talking about why Israel is bad or why cops suck, there's no reason to remove them from the environment. This has created a very skewed community.
Lastly, Asheviere's behaviour has impacted how other members of the moderation team, notably Robyn and newcomer Nalei view the server. I'm not going to dwell on these users for too long, as I do consider them my friends but generally they enforce these aforementioned biases, they have no room to speak up to Asheviere, because of how toxic her responses may be. The server's moderation has become very strict, on a server that was initially enjoyable, and it feels like a chore to talk in there anymore. Asheviere attempts to treat this server as if it's PS at times, and like it's 4chan at others. The remainder of the moderation team doesn't bother questioning it.
These reasons alone are not all the wrongdoings of the Pokepride server, but they are what I've chosen to elaborate on today. So that this isn't just a one-sided post, allow me to explain what I love about Pokepride. I love that people have a place to be themselves (for the most part, see above paragraphs) and be able to talk to other queer-identifying people, I love that people feel free to express themselves in whatever way they seem fitting, feel comfortable enough to come out here instead of being closeted and surpressing their feelings. I've met a lot of nice friendly people I would have never met otherwise if not for this server. And for Asheviere, I don't fully believe she intends to do the wrong thing, but her complacency and poor ability as moderator of a safe space should be put into question.
In summary, the Pokepride server was initially a good idea and executed well, but after months of toxic moderation the server's quality has rapidly decreased to the point where any political discussion that is disagreed with by the moderators is instantly shut down in bad faith. I implore the cong moderators to at least remove the link to the server, until the issues Crux, dice and I have mentioned are acknowledged and fixed. Thank you.
We're talking about it over the next few days and I'll be making a post after we've decided on stuff
They left on their own accord earlier today, so that isn't something that needs to be worried about anymore (other than future prevention of similar situations of course).
I suppose while I'm not necessarily staff in Pokepride, I should still share my two cents, being the next closest thing.
First of all, as someone who's only really stuck to 1v1 and a bit to OMs, before 1v1 became its own thing, I have little to no clue about people's history with one another external to the server, as well as prior to when I first joined the server in late 2019. In my time spent in Pokepride, I have come to learn that different people holding personal grudges against one another is an inevitability. Such grudges naturally lead to infighting and drama, which can be pretty harmful for the intended safe space/hangout that Pokepride is meant to be. Considering that it's impossible to control how people feel about each oher, the best I can do is ask that people don't air their dirty laundry out in public, staff included. I know that I, for one, wasn't really on the best terms with Chloe prior to joining the server, but it was that opportunity to talk with people in a safe space that led to us becoming friends, rather than enemies. I believe giving people a chance, like I was given, should be the idea behind the server (within reason), where people can very well bury the hatchet and become friends, despite their negative history.
Second, I'm all for staff scrutiny. Questioning authority almost always serves to lead to a healthier environment, where the general public and staff actively communicate and understand one another, creating a more unified server. This also works in reverse, where people should thoroughly examine arguments made against staff, as the greater picture is almost never going to be as necessarily black and white as either side tries to paint it. For example, one of the biggest arguments used in this fallout is how Asheviere supposedly broke her own rules by posting this:
Bear in mind that this was indeed pertinent to the conversation at the time, as people were talking about the Paul brothers and their controversies. On the other side of this, we have a user being banned for posting Guts, by Chuck Palahniuk, with absolutely no conversational context whatsoever. I won't be linking the document itself, as its contents are simply heinous shock porn akin to the likes of 2 girls 1 cup. As far as the debate of "how nsfw is too nsfw" goes, I leave no comment. You can decide for yourselves if the statement made by Asheviere shouldn't have been said, but it would simply be lying to yourselves to try and equate what she said to this "gay literature" that was posted. If there are other instances of Asheviere supposedly not following her own rules that anyone would like to shine light upon (preferably with proof this time), I'd be glad to delve deeper.
Third, as far as debate goes, I'm not necessarily opposed, though I do have some preferences. Debate, itself, is an inherent good thing; people get to become more informed about a given subject, agreements can be reached, and, in general, people get a better understanding of one another. These notions, however, can be tarnished by how people may carry out debate; namely semantics and aggression. All too often, I've seen good discussion points turn into petty disputes because one or more parties got stuck on a particular thing that was said and are too miffed to carry on discussion once the topic is redirected back to what was actually being discussed. Similarly, I've seen other parties try to stir up debate by calling out a typically inocuous post or action with a lengthy response when nobody was trying to engage in debate in the first place, which is a clear disruption to an otherwise peaceful environment. These people, who either don't know how, or outright refuse to simply say something is in poor taste and explain how without effectively flaming others, have no business in what is meant to be a safe space/hangout like Pokepride. For proper discussion, to avoid the former notion of semantics I mentioned, I believe it would be best to make an opt-in channel for the discord that is dedicated to solely debate, such that the other channels don't become cluttered with dozens of messages resulting from a back-and-forth between multiple parties, in addition so that people have the choice for themselves if they want to be involved. An added caveat would be that the server staff team can reserve the right to revoke someone's access to the channel if they've demonstrated that they have no place being involved in civil debate.
Lastly, the community should absolutely be more involved in how the server is run. As a community formed by the people, for the people, the people should definitely have a say in what the intended vision of the server should be, as well as to what extent rules be enforced. I, personally, would prefer that we retain the idea that the server be a safe space that reasonable people are welcome in, rather than what most Congregation of the Masses environments end up becoming, though if the greater community feels otherwise, then who are we to say no? In general, we plan to do a lot of community surveying within the server, moving forward, to gather people's opinions and do our best to accomodate them as much as possible.
I suppose this became a bit more than my two cents and more like two dollars- I just really like the server and feel like it's become a home for me where I can be a marginally less filtered version of myself. I hate to see it collapsing like this, and hope that the pending reforms will help to continue making it a great place where others can feel the same way about it as I do!
First of all, as someone who's only really stuck to 1v1 and a bit to OMs, before 1v1 became its own thing, I have little to no clue about people's history with one another external to the server, as well as prior to when I first joined the server in late 2019. In my time spent in Pokepride, I have come to learn that different people holding personal grudges against one another is an inevitability. Such grudges naturally lead to infighting and drama, which can be pretty harmful for the intended safe space/hangout that Pokepride is meant to be. Considering that it's impossible to control how people feel about each oher, the best I can do is ask that people don't air their dirty laundry out in public, staff included. I know that I, for one, wasn't really on the best terms with Chloe prior to joining the server, but it was that opportunity to talk with people in a safe space that led to us becoming friends, rather than enemies. I believe giving people a chance, like I was given, should be the idea behind the server (within reason), where people can very well bury the hatchet and become friends, despite their negative history.
Second, I'm all for staff scrutiny. Questioning authority almost always serves to lead to a healthier environment, where the general public and staff actively communicate and understand one another, creating a more unified server. This also works in reverse, where people should thoroughly examine arguments made against staff, as the greater picture is almost never going to be as necessarily black and white as either side tries to paint it. For example, one of the biggest arguments used in this fallout is how Asheviere supposedly broke her own rules by posting this:
Third, as far as debate goes, I'm not necessarily opposed, though I do have some preferences. Debate, itself, is an inherent good thing; people get to become more informed about a given subject, agreements can be reached, and, in general, people get a better understanding of one another. These notions, however, can be tarnished by how people may carry out debate; namely semantics and aggression. All too often, I've seen good discussion points turn into petty disputes because one or more parties got stuck on a particular thing that was said and are too miffed to carry on discussion once the topic is redirected back to what was actually being discussed. Similarly, I've seen other parties try to stir up debate by calling out a typically inocuous post or action with a lengthy response when nobody was trying to engage in debate in the first place, which is a clear disruption to an otherwise peaceful environment. These people, who either don't know how, or outright refuse to simply say something is in poor taste and explain how without effectively flaming others, have no business in what is meant to be a safe space/hangout like Pokepride. For proper discussion, to avoid the former notion of semantics I mentioned, I believe it would be best to make an opt-in channel for the discord that is dedicated to solely debate, such that the other channels don't become cluttered with dozens of messages resulting from a back-and-forth between multiple parties, in addition so that people have the choice for themselves if they want to be involved. An added caveat would be that the server staff team can reserve the right to revoke someone's access to the channel if they've demonstrated that they have no place being involved in civil debate.
Lastly, the community should absolutely be more involved in how the server is run. As a community formed by the people, for the people, the people should definitely have a say in what the intended vision of the server should be, as well as to what extent rules be enforced. I, personally, would prefer that we retain the idea that the server be a safe space that reasonable people are welcome in, rather than what most Congregation of the Masses environments end up becoming, though if the greater community feels otherwise, then who are we to say no? In general, we plan to do a lot of community surveying within the server, moving forward, to gather people's opinions and do our best to accomodate them as much as possible.
I suppose this became a bit more than my two cents and more like two dollars- I just really like the server and feel like it's become a home for me where I can be a marginally less filtered version of myself. I hate to see it collapsing like this, and hope that the pending reforms will help to continue making it a great place where others can feel the same way about it as I do!
pokepride is a public server, as it is advertised in this thread. as such, it makes sense for the server to welcome non queer people who aren't causing any problems. where the problem lies is when the server is not being used to facilitate productive discussion on LGBT topics, which was outlined by chloe, dice, crux, etc.
this server is borderline official. it makes sense why smogon would never have an actual official LGBT server, but given the public nature and high usercount of this one, it filled that role. regardless of whether it is actually official or not, it needs to be more responsibly moderated and led. that is, if we insist on having a server like this open to the public to begin with.
what is the purpose of having an LGBT server publicly advertised on a pokemon forum? i guess it helps "younger queer people blossom" by giving them a good environment to meet people like them, which a lot of people can't do irl. i think this is a noble cause, but not when the chat devolved into whatever this one devolved into. on PS, it makes sense to not have an official LGBT room since it would be easily accessible by trolls. pokepride did the best a public LGBT chat could do with its screening system and also because of how discord operates... even though the invite is publicly posted in this thread, you still gotta go looking for it. i do think smogon having a chat for LGBT people in this community to meet is a good idea. however, given that this type of server is most useful for younger people, it needs to be handled seriously.
i think some members of smogon's upper staff, maybe the cong staff, should take the server over and restructure the mod team. from there, i don't think they need to be too involved, but they should still have administrative powers to be able to handle any issues that might come up. smogon has a rough history with awful moderators taking advantage of young people, and a chat like this, full of especially vulnerable young people, needs to be given special attention by the mod team. the screenshots of the jokes that Asheviere made aren't too crazy imo... i've seen countless people make jokes like this. however, making jokes like this when you are in a position of power in a public discord that is full of and indirectly geared towards young people is unacceptable.
i am usually against heavily moderated chats, but in one as sensitive as this one, i really think you do need to keep a watchful eye on things.
this server is borderline official. it makes sense why smogon would never have an actual official LGBT server, but given the public nature and high usercount of this one, it filled that role. regardless of whether it is actually official or not, it needs to be more responsibly moderated and led. that is, if we insist on having a server like this open to the public to begin with.
what is the purpose of having an LGBT server publicly advertised on a pokemon forum? i guess it helps "younger queer people blossom" by giving them a good environment to meet people like them, which a lot of people can't do irl. i think this is a noble cause, but not when the chat devolved into whatever this one devolved into. on PS, it makes sense to not have an official LGBT room since it would be easily accessible by trolls. pokepride did the best a public LGBT chat could do with its screening system and also because of how discord operates... even though the invite is publicly posted in this thread, you still gotta go looking for it. i do think smogon having a chat for LGBT people in this community to meet is a good idea. however, given that this type of server is most useful for younger people, it needs to be handled seriously.
i think some members of smogon's upper staff, maybe the cong staff, should take the server over and restructure the mod team. from there, i don't think they need to be too involved, but they should still have administrative powers to be able to handle any issues that might come up. smogon has a rough history with awful moderators taking advantage of young people, and a chat like this, full of especially vulnerable young people, needs to be given special attention by the mod team. the screenshots of the jokes that Asheviere made aren't too crazy imo... i've seen countless people make jokes like this. however, making jokes like this when you are in a position of power in a public discord that is full of and indirectly geared towards young people is unacceptable.
i am usually against heavily moderated chats, but in one as sensitive as this one, i really think you do need to keep a watchful eye on things.
You're entirely correct that those inappropriate messages, especially the joke about the gf, are unacceptable and in horribly poor taste. No amount of "jk btw" can cover that. I don't know what I was thinking at the time, and it was a severe lapse of judgment on my part.
Combined with all the other points brought up, I have decided to leave the Poképride Discord, and will not return there. I'm really sorry to all the people I have disappointed and angered. I have a lot to reflect on, and will work hard on myself to learn from every mistake I've made.
Combined with all the other points brought up, I have decided to leave the Poképride Discord, and will not return there. I'm really sorry to all the people I have disappointed and angered. I have a lot to reflect on, and will work hard on myself to learn from every mistake I've made.
Chloe's post talks about "the issues Crux, dice and I have mentioned", so I think it's crucial to point out that all three of them are currently not in the Discord server being discussed. What I do know about these users, however, is that they have attacked others users in the server.
I also think if you read between the lines a bit, you'll notice Chloe's post says that Asheviere was "so unanimously liked by the other server staff that they promoted Asheviere over Chloe's objections."
From what I've seen in the server while I have been there, the users seemed pretty happy with the way it was run, and also with Asheviere.
I also noticed that dice's post says "if you want to participate in a friendly queer disc with folks who possess an actual sense of humor, grounding in sociopolitical and queer theory, and cynicism toward allies and liberals, hmu and i'll send you a link". Which is pretty weird to me, because I've definitely heard the fact that multiple individuals in this server by Crux have done things pretty low, even stooping down to making fun of Asheviere's appearance...
WOW!!! I wonder why a marginalized person might want their safe space not to have cynicism towards the only people who stood by them when they were being bullied??? I wonder why a marginalized person might want their safe space not to have people making fun of trans women for their appearance. I wonder why a marginalized person wants their safe space not to have people who use "queer theory" mostly as a justification for bullying other queer people.
But that's just my two cents...
I also think if you read between the lines a bit, you'll notice Chloe's post says that Asheviere was "so unanimously liked by the other server staff that they promoted Asheviere over Chloe's objections."
From what I've seen in the server while I have been there, the users seemed pretty happy with the way it was run, and also with Asheviere.
I also noticed that dice's post says "if you want to participate in a friendly queer disc with folks who possess an actual sense of humor, grounding in sociopolitical and queer theory, and cynicism toward allies and liberals, hmu and i'll send you a link". Which is pretty weird to me, because I've definitely heard the fact that multiple individuals in this server by Crux have done things pretty low, even stooping down to making fun of Asheviere's appearance...
WOW!!! I wonder why a marginalized person might want their safe space not to have cynicism towards the only people who stood by them when they were being bullied??? I wonder why a marginalized person might want their safe space not to have people making fun of trans women for their appearance. I wonder why a marginalized person wants their safe space not to have people who use "queer theory" mostly as a justification for bullying other queer people.
But that's just my two cents...
What on earth is this lol
1) Noone has attacked anyone - disagreeing with or having conflict with people is not objectionable and should be a fundamental part of queer spaces, as has been explained in depth above. Grow up.
2) Nothing you say about the quality of the Pokepride server engages with anything anyone above you have said at all, it is literally meaningless nonsense. This is a truly bizarre response to criticism.
3) This has not happened to my knowledge but also it's my private server we have no obligations to include or be nice to anyone. Stop making shit up.
Please don't just make up nonsense in some weird smear campaign to avoid accountability. I am having trouble even conceiving of what purpose this posts serves.
1) Noone has attacked anyone - disagreeing with or having conflict with people is not objectionable and should be a fundamental part of queer spaces, as has been explained in depth above. Grow up.
2) Nothing you say about the quality of the Pokepride server engages with anything anyone above you have said at all, it is literally meaningless nonsense. This is a truly bizarre response to criticism.
3) This has not happened to my knowledge but also it's my private server we have no obligations to include or be nice to anyone. Stop making shit up.
Please don't just make up nonsense in some weird smear campaign to avoid accountability. I am having trouble even conceiving of what purpose this posts serves.