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Metagame Inheritance
- Thread starter Don Vascus
- Start date
Inheriting Shift Gear from Genesect means that the Pokemon has to be shiny since Genesect only got the move from an event that was locked to be shiny.
A good way to check in the future is to try to validate the base Pokemon. If you try to validate just Genesect with shift gear (for any format) it'll tell you it needs to be shiny.oh that is the reason. thank you very much
Got to 1500 with another account testing weather, and I'd like to share a cool sun team I made to get there. Gonna be a longer post, so feel free to just copy and go if you don't want the deets. Also would love any optimizations or suggestions. TLDR; Heatran is the most expendable IMO so change as you like.
The first thing you might notice about this sun team is it doesn't have a Drought user. Well, the only legal one is Ninetales, which doesn't have any real utility options outside of that. In particular, I find pivoting to be essential. IMO, it's why rain traditionally the best of the weathers--Pelipper is the only automatic weather setter with pivoting in U-Turn. But in this metagame, when you can pin sets on Pokemon with great stats, manual weather setting is extremely viable, with the addition of pivoting + recovery.
Like all new metagames, my laddering on my first account was a learning experience. This team is a culmination of many players I've faced. I fought two sun users: one used this Zarude set with EQ over synthesis. But I figured that Zarude is bulky enough for synthesis to put in work, and it really does. I usually don't feel I need a third coverage move, but it's certainly an option. The other sun user I fought used specs Chandelure (Charizard), which with Overheat pretty much OHKO's literally everything that doesn't have Flash Fire. However, I wanted another Chlorophyll Pokemon, and a powerhouse like Chandelure (Venusaur) still hits absolutely hard as hell. Interestingly, Roserade is basically a strict upgrade to Venusaur if you want STAB Sludge Bomb instead, but I can't think of a situation where Roserade Sludge Bomb hits harder than Chandelure Weather Ball.
I believe it was Don Vascus, the current #1 on ladder, who was using this Zygarde (Arcanine) set with Roar > Sunny Day when I fought him on my first account, and I fell in love with it. I stole it and it's been a mainstay on my balance teams. It was only natural for me to incorporate it into my sun team, as morning sun also heals for more. For a second sun setter, I needed something with high Sp. Def that also wasn't weak to SF LO Pokemon,
and if this post is any indication, I'm a big Snorlax fan, as well as CB Darm (Tini) fan. As it happens, Scarf Darm in sun hits just as hard as Banded Darm without sun, and also provides speed control outside of sun while remaining strong enough to kill Offense teams regardless.
To be honest, I almost never used Heatran. I wanted a stealth rocker out of obligation, but I almost never clicked it. This slot is the most expendable IMO. The team is pretty weak to physical ice attackers, such as Weavile, so I could see a better check for him here.
That's basically it. I was using a Rain team on the account early on but found Sun to be more interesting. I'll probably make a Sand team on one of my fresh accounts, ladder with it, and share if it sees similar success. If you've made it this far, thanks for reading!
The first thing you might notice about this sun team is it doesn't have a Drought user. Well, the only legal one is Ninetales, which doesn't have any real utility options outside of that. In particular, I find pivoting to be essential. IMO, it's why rain traditionally the best of the weathers--Pelipper is the only automatic weather setter with pivoting in U-Turn. But in this metagame, when you can pin sets on Pokemon with great stats, manual weather setting is extremely viable, with the addition of pivoting + recovery.
Like all new metagames, my laddering on my first account was a learning experience. This team is a culmination of many players I've faced. I fought two sun users: one used this Zarude set with EQ over synthesis. But I figured that Zarude is bulky enough for synthesis to put in work, and it really does. I usually don't feel I need a third coverage move, but it's certainly an option. The other sun user I fought used specs Chandelure (Charizard), which with Overheat pretty much OHKO's literally everything that doesn't have Flash Fire. However, I wanted another Chlorophyll Pokemon, and a powerhouse like Chandelure (Venusaur) still hits absolutely hard as hell. Interestingly, Roserade is basically a strict upgrade to Venusaur if you want STAB Sludge Bomb instead, but I can't think of a situation where Roserade Sludge Bomb hits harder than Chandelure Weather Ball.
I believe it was Don Vascus, the current #1 on ladder, who was using this Zygarde (Arcanine) set with Roar > Sunny Day when I fought him on my first account, and I fell in love with it. I stole it and it's been a mainstay on my balance teams. It was only natural for me to incorporate it into my sun team, as morning sun also heals for more. For a second sun setter, I needed something with high Sp. Def that also wasn't weak to SF LO Pokemon,
and if this post is any indication, I'm a big Snorlax fan, as well as CB Darm (Tini) fan. As it happens, Scarf Darm in sun hits just as hard as Banded Darm without sun, and also provides speed control outside of sun while remaining strong enough to kill Offense teams regardless.
To be honest, I almost never used Heatran. I wanted a stealth rocker out of obligation, but I almost never clicked it. This slot is the most expendable IMO. The team is pretty weak to physical ice attackers, such as Weavile, so I could see a better check for him here.
That's basically it. I was using a Rain team on the account early on but found Sun to be more interesting. I'll probably make a Sand team on one of my fresh accounts, ladder with it, and share if it sees similar success. If you've made it this far, thanks for reading!
Queenly Majesty: "No, you're dead! I killed you!"
Triage: "True evil never dies. It is only REBORN."
Magearna @ Kee Berry
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Worry Seed
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power
Last session of Inheritance I'd mentioned Worry Seed was a way for Triage mons to deal with Queenly Majesty mons (although I didn't come up with the idea), but also that it was overall too gimmicky. However, I think Magearna could be pretty legit with it. The best thing in Tsareena's movepool to hit Magearna is a neutral High Jump Kick, so it can afford to click Calm Mind and Worry Seed in front of QM receivers. Worry Seed also helps out vs Unaware (unless the mon's running Haze or Flamethrower) and Ice Scales. I picked Kee Berry to increase its physical bulk and also provide a stat boost for Stored Power.
Triage: "True evil never dies. It is only REBORN."
Magearna @ Kee Berry
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Worry Seed
- Draining Kiss
- Stored Power
Last session of Inheritance I'd mentioned Worry Seed was a way for Triage mons to deal with Queenly Majesty mons (although I didn't come up with the idea), but also that it was overall too gimmicky. However, I think Magearna could be pretty legit with it. The best thing in Tsareena's movepool to hit Magearna is a neutral High Jump Kick, so it can afford to click Calm Mind and Worry Seed in front of QM receivers. Worry Seed also helps out vs Unaware (unless the mon's running Haze or Flamethrower) and Ice Scales. I picked Kee Berry to increase its physical bulk and also provide a stat boost for Stored Power.
I actually did that, but in the inheritance, where it was simply deemed as illegal. had to check it in ubers. i think that was what confused me.
Been playing Inheritance ladder, peaked at top 10. On paper, I think the idea for Inheritance sounds really cool and prone to lots of creativity, but in practice, there are only a few viable playstyles (stall, semi-stall, weather HO, regen balance), and even then you're kinda forced to run the same stuff every time (for stall you need Sheer Force "check" + Sun check + Rain check + Xatu mon + Regen Core + Zarude check + Unaware mon, which boils down to the same 10 or so mons every time). I think there are serious problems concerning the meta and stuff should go, but before I say that, I would like to post my team.
IIIIIIIIIIIII
Very simple team. You kinda just cover everything with your regen core while spamming KOff. Blissey + two Fire resists check Sun well enough, but if you really want to hard counter it, Flareon!Tapu Bulu is a nice pick that does the same thing Fini was trying to do. I like Wooper!Magearna for checking annoying QD users or Triage mons. Kinda loses to funny Zygarde inheritors and Marowak-A inheritors, but everything else should be fine. In fact, most of the times I recently lost were due to either crits, some other hax, or random Clefable inheritors with a Fire STAB and Calm Mind. This team is so popular I have begun seeing other ladder players with high ELO specifically counter-teaming this team, which I think speaks to how good it is.
With that being said, time for stuff I think should go.
Would like to jump on the Ban SF train. None of these mons have any switchins. Just from Nidoking, BoltBeam + Earth Power + Fighting move of choice covers the entire meta except for...Emogla!Celesteela, and the only reason it's viable anyway is because of Sheer Force. Tauros has the same problem except it gets CC to tear through Blissey faster. Mawile gets the perfect physical and special movepool to pick and choose its counters, and after TPunch + IPunch (Play Rough is honestly unnecessary, Ice Punch already hits everything), it has a choice of SD, Psychic Fangs, and Fire move of choice to trash all but dedicated counters. I think it's SF that's the problem and not these 3 because all the other SF users have solid movepools. Nidoqueen is literally the same movepool that Nidoking has except with TSpikes, Darmanitan has an expansive special movepool with Flamethrower + Psychic + Fighting move of choice, and even something like Druddigon has insane coverage. SF forces normally unviable sets to just check them, and the effect it has on the metagame is unhealthy and way too warping.
Before I started laddering, I didn't think Regen was a problem. Now? I will physically fight to remove it from the tier. It's different than SF that, while it's still dumb, it's dumb in a worse and ultimately detrimental way. At least SF is fun to use. I find no enjoyment in constantly switching out for 100 turns until we can draw. Of course, Regenerator has other problems besides the subjectivity of fun, such as weird Koffing inheritors with NGas + Wisp + Infestation build for the sole purpose of removing Regenerator mons, which I find to be unhealthy, but banning Regenerator would make the tier widely more accessible imo. It would be demoralizing to a new player to find that the best strategy is either to stall for 100+ turns or build to beat stall while leaving yourself open to other matchups. I've seen some rambling about Magic Bounce also being broken, and while I can see it, I think Regenerator is really what enables Magic Bounce to be so good, and vice versa. Both would probably still be good without the other, but I think Regenerator is easily the dumbest of the two and needs to go. If Magic Bounce is still dumb after a Regen ban, then we can talk about it, but for now I'm against (btw free Sableye, he did nothing wrong).
Garchomp may possibly be too much for the meta. Zygarde sets are absurdly dumb, especially SubGlare ones. They have enough bulk to tank a Night Shade, cripple a switchin, and set up on whatever the hell it wants because nothing is taking a boosted Thousand Arrows. Only the most physically defensive resists, like Persian-A!Tangrowth, can even stand up to it, but nothing that can switch in and take hits can threaten it back either. Zygarde!Garchomp also forces way too many guessing games because of what set it might be. Is it SubGlare, or Band, or DD, or Waves Trapper? Who knows? Each of them is built to beat its very few checks, and while it obviously can't use all of them, simply the threat of one and how hard each of them hits. If it was just Zygarde I would be up for a Zygarde donor ban, but Haxorus sets really push it over the edge for me. It gets access to Poison Jab, meaning those physically defensive Grasses that beat Zygarde sets simply fall. I think Garchomp is really dumb, can easily break past all of its checks, and is just kinda broken.
EDIT: Been playing more with Zygarde inheritors and I think a Zygarde donor ban is necessary. Even without Garchomp, stuff like Lando-T and Excadrill can fire off drawbackless Thousand Arrows and chunk everything, while mons like Hippowdon can abuse Coil + TArrows as a bulky win con. Garchomp is still dumb because Haxorus!Garchomp still kinda breaks teams effortlessly, but I wouldn't be mad if Zygarde donoring left as well.
I don't want it gone yet, but is it possible to start talking about weather in general? Drizzle and Drought being able to be slapped on any mons, combined with potent abusers such as Charizard!Chandelure, Venusaur!Lando-T, and Barraskewda!Urshifu-R might be too much. I think Drought is much worse than Drizzle because of how few Fire resists are in the meta (there are 7 Fire resists out of 22 mons from A- to S, and 3 of those are running offensive sets, so realistically only 4 Fire Resists) and even fewer immunities (there are 4 Flash Fire mons on the entire VR, and they're either not put first or running Intimidate), and how much of a nuke V-Create is, 2HKOing stuff like Tapu Fini or Toxapex after Rocks under Sun. Drizzle isn't as bad imo, but could still be problematic in the future because automatic weather and popular abusers are strong. I haven't seen a level close to the nuke V-Create is, so they're more centered around Flip Turn until it finds a good MU. Sand Stream and Snow Warning aren't even close to broken, but there's some good room for experimentation.
Finally, would it be possible to separate the ban list of banned Pokemon and donors? I find it very hard to believe a donor of Chansey would be broken, especially considering Blissey sets work just fine. And I think that mons such as Toxtricity could work even if they weren't allowed to inherit from themselves. Of course, this would impact a limited number of mons, but I find it weird that mons are unable to be used because of one quality and not the other.
Thanks for reading!
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Son of a bitch, you FINALLY axe Unburden and you don't tag me? All those months in gen 7 finally pay off.
Looking forward to hopping back in this weekend. Weather Abilities might still be okay, just maybe get used to bringing something to disrupt opposing weather (which couldn't be done with Unburden).
Looking forward to hopping back in this weekend. Weather Abilities might still be okay, just maybe get used to bringing something to disrupt opposing weather (which couldn't be done with Unburden).
I would just like to put my opinion out there, I really think a ban or a complex ban needs to happen regarding weather. In my experience, it's almost all I see besides Trick Room occasionally. There was a complex ban for Shared Power and I think a similar thing should be implemented here too. Maybe like ban Swift Swim and Drizzle being used together on the same team (and the other weather variants ofc)?
I just am finding it a wee bit too centralizing atm in the sense of I have at least to one mon on my team to try and counter it (I am mainly referring to rain here, as it is the best variant). It renders a lot of mons less viable due to speed issues and being frail and priority is few and far between in regards to hard countering it.
If you can give me an example of maybe a move or the use of only one mon that counters the strategy (specifically rain) on its own at least 90% of the time then maybe a complex ban won't be needed (if the coding isn't too difficult to implement however), but if not, I think a ban of some sort should be implemented.
I was thinking Grassy Glide with terrain, but again, that's utilising a whole different strat just to take down a Swift Swim Keldeo (example). But if they have another Swift Swimmer, maybe it resists Grass, the issue will still remain.
I just am finding it a wee bit too centralizing atm in the sense of I have at least to one mon on my team to try and counter it (I am mainly referring to rain here, as it is the best variant). It renders a lot of mons less viable due to speed issues and being frail and priority is few and far between in regards to hard countering it.
If you can give me an example of maybe a move or the use of only one mon that counters the strategy (specifically rain) on its own at least 90% of the time then maybe a complex ban won't be needed (if the coding isn't too difficult to implement however), but if not, I think a ban of some sort should be implemented.
I was thinking Grassy Glide with terrain, but again, that's utilising a whole different strat just to take down a Swift Swim Keldeo (example). But if they have another Swift Swimmer, maybe it resists Grass, the issue will still remain.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ is where all replays are saved, just search "gen 8 inheritance" in the Format box.
As far as using pre-evolutions, many Pokemon don't have that many differences between them and their evolved forms. A notable one is Grookey, who had Swords Dance, Grassy Glide, U-turn, Wood Hammer, and most of the other moves you would still run on Rillaboom inheritors. The script just defaults to the first Pokemon in dex order who has all the attributes that you want.
Hello, the council has voted on Tapu Koko, Drizzle and Drought. As a result of this, Tapu Koko and Drizzle are now banned from Inheritance.
Tagging Kris to implement these bans.
Tapu Koko was banned due to how excessively adaptable its Mawile set was. All you really needed was three moves: Thunder Punch, Play Rough, and Swords Dance. The fourth move had an insane amount of techs as a result, moving from Substitute to stop stray Toxics from Emolga inheritors and to get SD up easier, Sucker Punch to KO faster threats, Fire Fang for particular Steels, Taunt for passive checks like Emolga inheritors, etc. Tapu Koko could also mix it up with a Specs set using Magearna that got momentum rather quickly and could force Choice Specs onto Emolga inheritors, significantly crippling whatever defensive utility they may have had. Other sets like Victini saw fringe usage, but none-the-less contributed to why we saw Tapu Koko as the problem and not Mawile / Sheer Force.
(not Pelipper, just rain in general)
Drizzle was banned due to how it boosted already powerful threats into excessively powerful wallbreakers that needed specific immunities to even check reliably, like Keldeo and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. Alongside this, the amount of Swift Swim users that could be boosted alongside Rain, using Barraskewda and Drednaw usually, often overwhelmed offense, leading to very little scenarios where either side could win unless they had specific checks to rain teams. As a result of the former statement, Drizzle was banned instead of Swift Swim, as banning Swift Swim would not fix the issue of overpowered wallbreakers.
Drought on the other hand was not banned due to a lack of evidence of its potency. The council did not feel that Drought was oppressive enough yet to be conclusively unhealthy for the metagame. We may revisit Drought in the future, but for the time being, we believe it to not be broken.
Some other news: the council is looking into suspect testing Unaware or Regenerator. We currently feel that stall teams are too oppressive in the current metagame and can be exceptionally frustrating to deal with in the builder due to the amount of adaptations they have. Our current priority within the council is Unaware, as theoretically, removing the ability to utilize Unaware allows for setup to have considerably more potency against stall teams, however, I have been listening into the thread and determined that even with the 2 Ability Clause, Regenerator may still be a broken ability due to its ability to draw out games. This is not necessarily a component of stall, but rather a component of long game lengths that the council is currently seeking to address. As well as this, some more recent Regenerator users have gotten significantly better movepools since last generation - most got Nasty Plot, making it considerably harder to wall them over the course of a game without utilizing Regenerator yourself. This type of centralization is why I consider Regenerator to be potentially suspect worthy.
Tagging Kris to implement these bans.
Tapu Koko was banned due to how excessively adaptable its Mawile set was. All you really needed was three moves: Thunder Punch, Play Rough, and Swords Dance. The fourth move had an insane amount of techs as a result, moving from Substitute to stop stray Toxics from Emolga inheritors and to get SD up easier, Sucker Punch to KO faster threats, Fire Fang for particular Steels, Taunt for passive checks like Emolga inheritors, etc. Tapu Koko could also mix it up with a Specs set using Magearna that got momentum rather quickly and could force Choice Specs onto Emolga inheritors, significantly crippling whatever defensive utility they may have had. Other sets like Victini saw fringe usage, but none-the-less contributed to why we saw Tapu Koko as the problem and not Mawile / Sheer Force.
(not Pelipper, just rain in general)Drizzle was banned due to how it boosted already powerful threats into excessively powerful wallbreakers that needed specific immunities to even check reliably, like Keldeo and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. Alongside this, the amount of Swift Swim users that could be boosted alongside Rain, using Barraskewda and Drednaw usually, often overwhelmed offense, leading to very little scenarios where either side could win unless they had specific checks to rain teams. As a result of the former statement, Drizzle was banned instead of Swift Swim, as banning Swift Swim would not fix the issue of overpowered wallbreakers.
Drought on the other hand was not banned due to a lack of evidence of its potency. The council did not feel that Drought was oppressive enough yet to be conclusively unhealthy for the metagame. We may revisit Drought in the future, but for the time being, we believe it to not be broken.
Some other news: the council is looking into suspect testing Unaware or Regenerator. We currently feel that stall teams are too oppressive in the current metagame and can be exceptionally frustrating to deal with in the builder due to the amount of adaptations they have. Our current priority within the council is Unaware, as theoretically, removing the ability to utilize Unaware allows for setup to have considerably more potency against stall teams, however, I have been listening into the thread and determined that even with the 2 Ability Clause, Regenerator may still be a broken ability due to its ability to draw out games. This is not necessarily a component of stall, but rather a component of long game lengths that the council is currently seeking to address. As well as this, some more recent Regenerator users have gotten significantly better movepools since last generation - most got Nasty Plot, making it considerably harder to wall them over the course of a game without utilizing Regenerator yourself. This type of centralization is why I consider Regenerator to be potentially suspect worthy.
This is all great news. I agree that Unaware is the main issue in stall being so good, as regen cores do get dismantled by setup mons. Has the council considered a 1 Ability Clause just for Regenerator? I imagine the issue outside of stall arises when pivoting between the two regens, but I can't see having just one as being an issue, and I feel that SF LO abusers would get too strong if AV regen were banned altogether.
I second this. One is a lot less threatening than two for Regen.
Thank yuo for this, although eliminating Drizzle altogether may be a bit harsh. I was looking forward to using Dry Skin more haha But happy that it's gone.Hello, the council has voted on Tapu Koko, Drizzle and Drought. As a result of this, Tapu Koko and Drizzle are now banned from Inheritance.
Tagging Kris to implement these bans.
Drizzle was banned due to how it boosted already powerful threats into excessively powerful wallbreakers that needed specific immunities to even check reliably, like Keldeo and Urshifu-Rapid-Strike. Alongside this, the amount of Swift Swim users that could be boosted alongside Rain, using Barraskewda and Drednaw usually, often overwhelmed offense, leading to very little scenarios where either side could win unless they had specific checks to rain teams. As a result of the former statement, Drizzle was banned instead of Swift Swim, as banning Swift Swim would not fix the issue of overpowered wallbreakers.
Drought on the other hand was not banned due to a lack of evidence of its potency. The council did not feel that Drought was oppressive enough yet to be conclusively unhealthy for the metagame. We may revisit Drought in the future, but for the time being, we believe it to not be broken.
:)
I see, I was trying to search simply for "inheritance".
As for the script. It makes sense, but I can see it being faulty. It'd be better to let the player choose the donor so faking certain abilities or moves was a choice.
So, I just hit #25 on the ladder with my alt ("Teammoustache") without using Stall, Weather or Regen. The thing I want you guys to take away from this, is that Comfey!Magearna and Tauros!Zeraora are fucking ridiculous. Here's my team: https://pokepast.es/26b4299b873e2546
The Lycanroc-Dusk!Urshifu set is new, so I can't vouch for its effectiveness. It's used to be DD Crawdaunt!Urshifu, which was great but I didn't really have anything to touch Emolga!Toxapex. A surprising amount of people did not expect the Weavile to be Scarfed, and I got some Turn 1 kills with Triple Axel and Knock Off. Didn't really encounter too much priority abuse this time round, so I don't know if it's worth running Queenly Majesty anymore. Emolga!Toxapex was just as amazing as the last iteration of Inheritance. Quagsire!Celesteela was great; good typing and decent bulk meant I usually prevented sweeps with Haze. Encore is a new addition, used to be Infestation to Toxic Trap setup sweepers, but that generally didn't work out as I climbed higher.
The Lycanroc-Dusk!Urshifu set is new, so I can't vouch for its effectiveness. It's used to be DD Crawdaunt!Urshifu, which was great but I didn't really have anything to touch Emolga!Toxapex. A surprising amount of people did not expect the Weavile to be Scarfed, and I got some Turn 1 kills with Triple Axel and Knock Off. Didn't really encounter too much priority abuse this time round, so I don't know if it's worth running Queenly Majesty anymore. Emolga!Toxapex was just as amazing as the last iteration of Inheritance. Quagsire!Celesteela was great; good typing and decent bulk meant I usually prevented sweeps with Haze. Encore is a new addition, used to be Infestation to Toxic Trap setup sweepers, but that generally didn't work out as I climbed higher.
"Without stall", but you're using an Unaware Celesteela and an electric immune Toxapex? It's a great team and it's not a full stall team, but you are using stall :)
And I agree Zeraora is OP. Sheer force damage output with life orb is insane.
Well, I need defensive mons if I'm going to run Balance, and any defensive mon can conceivably be used on Stall, so I guess? But regardless, my point was that I'm not running full stall, yeah.
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Save Inheritance With These Major Changes (Plus 6 Creative Sets To Use Post-Bans)
After playing for half a month, I think Inheritance would benefit from a serious overhaul. With all of the broken abilities flying around, I feel like I'm playing BH. In my opinion, the metagame needs a large round of bans to eliminate the upper crust of broken abilities so Inheritance can be fun again.
I'm going to make a banning argument for Unaware, Sheer Force, and Regenerator (and other things) based not solely on their strength, but also because of how much they take away from the enjoyment of building and playing the format.
TLDR: Inheritance has the potential to be more than combining the best bodies with the best movesets, but only if we ban the abilities that are so strong that you don't need to consider synergy when building.
As a closing note, I'd like to share with you some fun sets that I haven't been able to make work in this metagame of titans, but that I think could be pretty good post-bans. These sets are cool on their own but they also happen to make a fun little team that you're free to try out!
https://pokepast.es/ab68c0e8aaded648
Thanks for reading, and happy laddering!
After playing for half a month, I think Inheritance would benefit from a serious overhaul. With all of the broken abilities flying around, I feel like I'm playing BH. In my opinion, the metagame needs a large round of bans to eliminate the upper crust of broken abilities so Inheritance can be fun again.
I'm going to make a banning argument for Unaware, Sheer Force, and Regenerator (and other things) based not solely on their strength, but also because of how much they take away from the enjoyment of building and playing the format.
TLDR: Inheritance has the potential to be more than combining the best bodies with the best movesets, but only if we ban the abilities that are so strong that you don't need to consider synergy when building.
* * * * *
I have broken up my post into three mini-essays:Inheritance is a format where Pokemon choose their movesets based on which moves are best for their particular stats and typing. The best version of Inheritance — the one I'd love to play — would have tons of viable base Pokemon, each of which have tons of movesets they might want to inherit, and there'd be room for creativity in deciding which sets to choose.
This is not the version of Inheritance we're playing. At the top of the ladder, it's Pokemon with broken stats and abilities designed to counter the other Pokemon with broken stats and abilities.
Take a look at some of the teams that have been posted in this thread:
I've used this team for about a dozen games on ladder, and it's effortlessly effective. There's a flow to it, where very few special attackers can threaten Blissey, while very few physical attackers can put a dent in the Regen core. There are times when you lose, but it's due to things like their setup attacker matching up well with Magearna; in most of those games, I think I could have won if Blissey was Unaware and Magearna Magic Bounce.
By the way, I'm not meaning to throw shade on any of users I'm referencing — hate the game, not the player. Let's look at another team:
I think Pokemon is at its most interesting and fun when the Pokemon on a team can work together and support each other rather than just being 6 strong Pokemon. In order for that to happen, we need the pool of available donors and receivers to be roughly flat in power level, so that subtle changes in movesets and abilities can help a team function more effectively if it commits to a strategy, like running Defiant on a Sticky Web team or Intimidate on BO.
This is not the version of Inheritance we're playing. At the top of the ladder, it's Pokemon with broken stats and abilities designed to counter the other Pokemon with broken stats and abilities.
Take a look at some of the teams that have been posted in this thread:
This team pairs the Pokemon with the best typing and bulkiest stats with the best abilities in the game — Magic Bounce, Unaware, 2x Regen. It makes no attempt to use any clever synergies between donor and receiver; 4 of the Pokemon don't even have STAB. Thanks to these abilities, the Regen/Unaware/MBounce core is well-prepared to deal with hazards, status, and setup, only losing to a select few breakers, which the team checks with type immunity abilities (Motor Drive Pex for Mawile Koko, Flash Fire Bulu for Sun).IIIIIIIIIIIII
Very simple team. You kinda just cover everything with your regen core while spamming KOff.
I've used this team for about a dozen games on ladder, and it's effortlessly effective. There's a flow to it, where very few special attackers can threaten Blissey, while very few physical attackers can put a dent in the Regen core. There are times when you lose, but it's due to things like their setup attacker matching up well with Magearna; in most of those games, I think I could have won if Blissey was Unaware and Magearna Magic Bounce.
By the way, I'm not meaning to throw shade on any of users I'm referencing — hate the game, not the player. Let's look at another team:
This is another team using Goodstuff™ to get a leg up on the competition. Zera kills most things slower than it, Steela walls most setup mons, Toxapex walls most breakers, and Magearna sweeps most teams that don't have explicit checks to it, plus some teams that do. It's not like these Pokemon work particularly well together — they're just all very strong Pokemon that, individually, perform very well in the tier.So, I just hit #25 on the ladder with my alt ("Teammoustache") without using Stall, Weather or Regen. The thing I want you guys to take away from this, is that Comfey!Magearna and Tauros!Zeraora are fucking ridiculous. Here's my team: https://pokepast.es/26b4299b873e2546
I think Pokemon is at its most interesting and fun when the Pokemon on a team can work together and support each other rather than just being 6 strong Pokemon. In order for that to happen, we need the pool of available donors and receivers to be roughly flat in power level, so that subtle changes in movesets and abilities can help a team function more effectively if it commits to a strategy, like running Defiant on a Sticky Web team or Intimidate on BO.
Now we get to the fun part. I think that Sheer Force, Regenerator, Unaware, Magearna, and Natu/Xatu should all be banned.
Sheer Force should have been banned day 1. It's unreasonable that a Pokemon with base 143 Speed should have no switchins and require a dedicated defensive slot to check. The problem isn't Mawile or Tauros or Tapu Koko; it's the fact that you can get so much immediate power and coverage on almost any Pokemon for minimal investment.
Regenerator is, in my opinion, the biggest problem with this meta and with OMs as a whole. There are many issues with Regenerator, but in the context of this post, the main issue with Regenerator is that it is far and away the most useful defensive ability and is so exceptionally strong that there is little reason not to use it. It kills metagame diversity, since there is no alternative to running it, and its presence in the meta has changed things for the much grindier.
Unaware is another metagame diversity killer — gone are the days where you could be rewarded for taking a risk setting up with a Pokemon. In the presence of Unaware, Pokemon can essentially be taken for face value. Removing setup removes one of the core elements of surprise in the game and allows for extreme consistency in defensive and bulky offensive strategies.
Magearna is a receiver that is able to do too many things. The main issue with it is that it is a fairy type that's immune to Toxic, making it exceptionally good at pulling off cheesy monoattacking strategies. It was the main abuser of Butterfree, now the main abuser of Comfey, and as we've seen above it can also just pull off the role of a generic Unaware tank making use of the fact that it has the best typing in the game.
Xatu has Magic Bounce + Teleport + Wish going for it, and that's all it needs to forcefully seize momentum. Aside from the obvious hazards denial, being able to pass Wishes while being immune to Toxic, Willo, and Taunt seriously limits the effectiveness of stallbreaking options. As people have put it, even if all Blissey was able to do was click Teleport, it'd still be broken. Then it gets other moveslots to defog or trick or Night Shade or whatever.
Sheer Force should have been banned day 1. It's unreasonable that a Pokemon with base 143 Speed should have no switchins and require a dedicated defensive slot to check. The problem isn't Mawile or Tauros or Tapu Koko; it's the fact that you can get so much immediate power and coverage on almost any Pokemon for minimal investment.
Regenerator is, in my opinion, the biggest problem with this meta and with OMs as a whole. There are many issues with Regenerator, but in the context of this post, the main issue with Regenerator is that it is far and away the most useful defensive ability and is so exceptionally strong that there is little reason not to use it. It kills metagame diversity, since there is no alternative to running it, and its presence in the meta has changed things for the much grindier.
Unaware is another metagame diversity killer — gone are the days where you could be rewarded for taking a risk setting up with a Pokemon. In the presence of Unaware, Pokemon can essentially be taken for face value. Removing setup removes one of the core elements of surprise in the game and allows for extreme consistency in defensive and bulky offensive strategies.
Magearna is a receiver that is able to do too many things. The main issue with it is that it is a fairy type that's immune to Toxic, making it exceptionally good at pulling off cheesy monoattacking strategies. It was the main abuser of Butterfree, now the main abuser of Comfey, and as we've seen above it can also just pull off the role of a generic Unaware tank making use of the fact that it has the best typing in the game.
Xatu has Magic Bounce + Teleport + Wish going for it, and that's all it needs to forcefully seize momentum. Aside from the obvious hazards denial, being able to pass Wishes while being immune to Toxic, Willo, and Taunt seriously limits the effectiveness of stallbreaking options. As people have put it, even if all Blissey was able to do was click Teleport, it'd still be broken. Then it gets other moveslots to defog or trick or Night Shade or whatever.
Regardless of whether we ban the things I've argued for or not, there will still be a balance that the metagame reaches. The question is whether that metagame is fun to play or not, and I think a metagame without overpowered or drawbackless abilities will indeed be much more fun to play.
I think there's this idea floating around that if you remove the most overpowered abilities from a tier, some new set of overpowered abilities will emerge, but this is not true. There are only a few abilities as strong as Sheer Force, Regenerator, and the other abilities I mentioned above — most abilities are fairly average in power level and require certain conditions to be met in order to be effective. Once we're at a point where these average-ish abilities are viable enough to see use on high ladder, I think the metagame will be in a reasonable spot.
Instead of Sheer Force, teams could try inheriting from Pokemon like Cinccino, Dhelmise, Farfetch'd, Mew, Riolu, Sigilyph, Thievul, Exeggutor-Alola, Scrafty, Jirachi, Darumaka-Galar, and other creative options that have been outcompeted in the current metagame.
For those who think defensive teams will cease to exist after this, it is true that the bread and butter of stall and bulky strategies will be gone. It will be difficult for slow teams to survive when offensive mons get perfect coverage and high base power moves, but perhaps that's a good thing. After all, if it's possible to cover all the metagame's threats on one unkillable team, the game just gets boring. Defensive strategies will have to get creative and use movesets from mons like Clefable, Mudsdale, Coalossal, Accelgor, Moltres, Cryogonal, Salazzle, Starmie, Salamence, Hippowdon, Jellicent, and many others.
Obviously, with fewer defensive resources, some offensive threats could get out of hand. Drought + Chlorophyll, Tough Claws Terrakion, Adaptability and Dragon's Maw Dragapult, V-Create Darmanitan, Expanding Force Alakazam and more could all become overpowered. We'll just have to wait and see and ban those too when they become a problem.
I think there's this idea floating around that if you remove the most overpowered abilities from a tier, some new set of overpowered abilities will emerge, but this is not true. There are only a few abilities as strong as Sheer Force, Regenerator, and the other abilities I mentioned above — most abilities are fairly average in power level and require certain conditions to be met in order to be effective. Once we're at a point where these average-ish abilities are viable enough to see use on high ladder, I think the metagame will be in a reasonable spot.
Instead of Sheer Force, teams could try inheriting from Pokemon like Cinccino, Dhelmise, Farfetch'd, Mew, Riolu, Sigilyph, Thievul, Exeggutor-Alola, Scrafty, Jirachi, Darumaka-Galar, and other creative options that have been outcompeted in the current metagame.
For those who think defensive teams will cease to exist after this, it is true that the bread and butter of stall and bulky strategies will be gone. It will be difficult for slow teams to survive when offensive mons get perfect coverage and high base power moves, but perhaps that's a good thing. After all, if it's possible to cover all the metagame's threats on one unkillable team, the game just gets boring. Defensive strategies will have to get creative and use movesets from mons like Clefable, Mudsdale, Coalossal, Accelgor, Moltres, Cryogonal, Salazzle, Starmie, Salamence, Hippowdon, Jellicent, and many others.
Obviously, with fewer defensive resources, some offensive threats could get out of hand. Drought + Chlorophyll, Tough Claws Terrakion, Adaptability and Dragon's Maw Dragapult, V-Create Darmanitan, Expanding Force Alakazam and more could all become overpowered. We'll just have to wait and see and ban those too when they become a problem.
As a closing note, I'd like to share with you some fun sets that I haven't been able to make work in this metagame of titans, but that I think could be pretty good post-bans. These sets are cool on their own but they also happen to make a fun little team that you're free to try out!
https://pokepast.es/ab68c0e8aaded648
Thanks for reading, and happy laddering!
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