I think Deoxys-LG and Deoxys-E should be allowed in OU.

[Acme]

The tournament has only been over for a few days. Right now, we are collecting opinions from people who played in the tournament about how well Deoxys-e actually worked. Most people we've talked or who have posted on the forum indicate that they did not need a special counter for Deoxys-e, and that it did not break their battles. Not a single person who we've talked to (and we've attempted to collect opinions for everybody in the tournament) has thought that Deoxys-e proved to be unfair, even people who just used their ordinary teams, and not specialised teams.

We plan to leave the discussion open for around a week, and if the clear consensus is that Deoxys-e is not broken, he will be unbanned on the Shoddy Battle ladder. The only reason nothing has been done so far is that the discussion is not yet over.

If you are reading this and played in the tournament and have not posted in that thread yet, I ask that you do it there rather than here (or at least both places) so that we have all the opinions regarding the tournament in one place.

There were only 10 posts in that forum, 2 were from you, and the one guy who did say that Deoxys-S should stay uber had his post deleted for not giving enough reasoning in it.

I understand that you've probably spoken first hand to a few people who didn't post in that thread, but I still think it needs more than a few peoples opinions to go on. I'm all for adding a new Pokemon to OU especially if thats where it belongs, but lets not make the wrong decision here.

 

[Cathy]

There were only 10 posts in that forum

Actually there are 1200 posts in that forum (exactly, at the time of writing).

We just held a tournament that took over two months, with initially 256 participants. That topic -- which is for discussing how Deoxys-e fared in the tournament -- has been broadcast in the main chat in big red letters dozens of times, and the welcome message also mentions Deoxys-e possibly being unbanned. Frankly I'm baffled by the low number of responses to the discussion topic.

However, it is just not possible to do more than this. What more can possibly be done? We held a huge tournament, we're asking for analysis of the results. If people don't reply, clearly they don't care about seeing Deoxys-e in standard (not "OU" as it will take several months to see if he is used enough to be OU). I think you have underestimated the amount of time and effort that went into this tournament. It is not just the opinion of ten people.

In any case, my reason for mentioning this was just to respond to somebody's question about what we are doing in response to the tournament. I do not hold an opinion on whether Deoxys-e should be uber myself, and I am not proposing anything in my posts. I am just answering Anti's question.

 

[Mekkah]

ooooh long posts beat old traditions!!!

"When I heard Deoxys-e was going to be legal, I made all attempts to be sure that I'd be prepared for it...but when I finally found the Deoxys-e, it didn't last two seconds against my lead Yanmega anyway.

Personal experience when facing an opponent with a brain fart. Sounds like a great way to begin an essay. Following this line of logic, since my Sunflora took out that Groudon lead within a time frame of 2 seconds, Groudon should be considered to be not uber.

Yes, he has enough speed to outrun Jolly Scarfchomp and OHKO with Ice Beam, but isn't that a good thing? Yes, he has a massive movepool, but does he really have the stats to use them? Against stall teams, normally vulnerable to mixed sweepers, yes. Anything else? No.

What the hell is this? "Hey, it can do a lot of things of which other Pokemon in this tier can only dream of - and by that I mean do ONE of these and not fuck up its versatility and effectivity complete, and this guy does more than one". What more could you ask for? What else is there, besides "stall teams and vulnerable to mixed sweepers?". I suppose we'll find out soon.

However I mean, Superpower takes down Blissey, Shadow Ball takes out Cresselia, Thunderbolt takes out Skarmory and Ice Beam takes out Gliscor and Hippowdon. Aren't those good things?

It's nice when someone writes an essay completely for one side and represents the facts of the side he's arguing against. The mere fact that Deoxys-E can break through your basic stall team with its eyes closed should at least slightly hint towards the fact that it may be a lot better than what's currently allowed???

The most overused Pokemon in the game are destroyed by this "Uber", and yet the likes of Ludicolo, Dugtrio and Spiritomb fare well against him.

There's plenty of variants that Ludicolo can't handle - in fact, it needs Leech Seed to do :something: and Toxic to really counter it, and even then your odd Calm Mind/Substitute version will run him over. Dugtrio must be a joke, lol.

Azumarril, Arcanine and Ambipom can strike in and KO first. Drapion's typing and Dark status makes it great for Night Slashing it into a grave. Scizor comes in on Ice Beam and Psychic and Swords Dances while the opponent expects X-Scizzor - if he stays in, kill it with Quick Attack. Steelix resists all of his mainstream attacks minus Superpower, which will just bounce off his 500+ defense anyway. Sash Cacturne and Absol can start to see more play thanks to Swords Dance / Sucker Punch.

Even if all of this were true, it just shows that Deoxys-E would have a really considerable impact in that you now need some lower tiers to beat it. Which may seem like a boost in versatility of teams, until you realize everyone still only has 6 Pokemon and 4 move slots and can't even handle half of the threats in the game with that without losing considerable offense.

But hey, Arcanine cannot OHKO with Extremespeed and cannot switch in reliably. The others cannot either. Focus Sashed Sucker Punching Swords Dancers only work once - that's like the opposite of a counter. Assuming Deoxys-E stays in on Scizor so it fares at its best is so biased I'm not going to bother with it.

Jirachi has virtually nothing to worry about and can setup Calm Mind on it if its bulky, give it paralysis if it has Thunder or hurt it immensely and escape if it has U-Turn.

Kinda underestimating Deoxys-E's bulkiness here. Its massive Spd and Pressure makes it even bulkier, because unlike Blissey it can restore 50% of its HP before anything touches it, and if it needs to, stall out a move that hurts it and still have about half of its Recover PP left. I'll admit paralysis screws the bitch over

Anything with Thunder Wave turns this thing into dead weight. Bronzong and Dusknoir, who are slowly loosing popularity, turn many variants useless as well. The game will become even more diverse, more strategic, turn alot of known facts into guessing games - as the "whores" lose usefulness, the underdogs will rise. The game will even out, meta will merge, and interest in the game will kindle faster. And if I'm wrong, its much easier to ban a Pokemon than to unban it...just look at the Manaphy case. Deoxys deserves a chance...the game deserves to see what it could be with a mixed threat other than Infernape on the table. The game isn't changing radically because of this, but its a breath of fresh air.

Everything in this paragraph is either "eh whatever" or has already been handled. The bolded part...do I even want that? Do I want someone who can do a lucky guess or two to win over someone who knows his facts? No thanks.

So the meta is shattered and diversity reigns supreme. Does that mean that the rest of the Pokemon community besides the incredible overused rapists of Garchomp and Blissey will lose effectiveness? No. Just because an attack is Super Effective doesn't mean its going to KO. In fact, in all my battles using Deoxys-e, he hasn't been even close to KOing a single Pokemon. Not to mention that his item of choice, Life Orb, drains his pitiful health stat to even more deperssing numbers. While Deoxys-e comes in to shatter Hippowdon, I wouldn't swap my hippo. Ice Beam does alot of damage, but definitely doesn't kill it. Then I'll be free to kill it with Earthquake after I absorb the attack. Superpower doesn't KO OU Blissey, unlike Uber Blissey, so she can still get in Thunder Wave, Softboiled, Wish or a finishing Seismic Toss or Ice Beam. Is Tyranitar scared by Superpower? No. Crunch ensures Deoxys-e won't come in on the switch, and Tyraniboah can just hide behind a Substitute as it comes in to finish it with either Dark Pulse or the aforementioned Crunch. Togekiss does extremely well against Deoxys if it doesn't predict a Roost, but Thunder Wave will cripple it, and Air Slash will seal the deal anyway. Weavile might not like Superpower as well, but Deoxys-e hates Ice Shard and Pursuit just as much. Bullet Punch Metagross kills Deoxys-e before it gets a chance to move - let's not forget that it also has the deadly Super-Effective Pursuit as well! Choice Scarf Gengar can hurt it with Shadow Ball if it isn't facing something with an exhausting about of speed. Swampert absorbs an attack and kills it with Earthquake - especially Special Defense Swampert. Shadow Ball Deoxys-e takes awhile to take down Cresselia with Shadow Ball, and it can Thunder Wave it in the meantime or Calm Mind as it hacks away and Rest the damage off. Lucario comes in on alot and uses either Swords Dance / Extremespeed, Crunch, Dark Pulse or Shadow Ball to end its happy day. Special Defense Milotic and Calm Mind Suicune laugh at his attacks (the ladder needs a turn or two of setup to be comfortable) and either OHKO or 2HKO with Surf. Deoxys-e will find itself in heavy competition with itself - who can be the fastest in case of a mirror match. This of course results in weaker and weaker Deoxys-e attacks, which makes it even easier for all the other Pokemon to defend against it and kill it in no time flat. Speed isn't everything, apparently."

Too lazy to counter all of this but...hey, if we're using that logic, I'll just assume Deoxys-E is hiding behind a Substitute all the time so it gets in two hits guaranteed before the opponent even has a chance to move.

 

[eric the espeon]

colin i am also surprised at the small number or posts, i have posted twice and though their are few posts they are almost all interesting.
here is a link for anyone who has not found it yet.
http://shoddybattle.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=254

also here is one of my posts from shoddy:

darth spell, i love that post. it explains that although its movepool is good is does not have the raw attacking power to hurt anything it does not hit super effective and even those things it does hit super efective can often survive, to put it in perspective i have found pokemon with the same base attacks as deoxys-e, its physical attack is the same as Cloyster or Kingdra and its special attack is the same as Chimecho or Metagross, not bad but its not going to be taking down bulky Pokemon without super effective attacks and/or a choice item. it's supporting movepool is awsome and if it had halfway decent defences it would be extremely good, but they are crap. 50/90/90 it dies to almost any non-resisted attack unless you invest masively in HP, if you do that can't attack efectively from both sides. ANY set is walled by rest talk zong, cressy (Max sp. attack + nature Choice specs shadow ball will only do 37-44% to the rest talk cressy from smogon). Psyco bost is powerful, but like draco meteor it harshly lowers sp. attack and is resisted by alot more than draco meteor. It can out speed + nature, 252 evs choice scarf Garchomp (499 speed), though it needs 236 speed evs and a + nature which detracts from its ability to attack from both sides. Even with no ev’s and a + nature it reaches 435 speed, more than enough to outrun all non-scarfed, non-speed boost Pokemon and some scarfed Pokemon as well, but speed is not everything. If Deoxys-speed is allowed in OU matches we may see a drop in choice scarfers, mainly Garchomp, who is outspead and 1ko’d (if its outrageing, otherwise it would simply switch out, even if it has superpower bliss can switch in on a predicted ice beam and T-wave it). Deoxys-speed would certainly be popular, a prime choice for a revenge killer, and it would certainly be a threat but, though fast, it is quite easy to wall and is easy to take down with pursuit weavile or tyranitar if you can predict them in on something like a specs Psycho boost.

and one of the other best posts from shoddy:
(by Aldaron)

Unfortunately, I was only able to battle 5 times out of 7 for the tournament, but I still used Deoxys-e in all of those battles.

The best way I can sum up Deoxys-e is that it is a very weak, non-choiced, scarf'd Pokemon. It essentially allows you to metagame against choice scarfers; that is the only consistent role it can play. I used a set that allowed me 500 speed, or 1 more than a 333 speed choice scarfed Garchomp. The move set was Ice Beam for Garchomp, Thunderbolt for Dragon Dancing Gyarados, SuperPower for Blissey and Shadow Ball for other Deoxys-e and coverage. I was able to get boltbeam and the fighting/ghost combination, yet even with a life orb the attack was rather weak, as I completely ignored any advantages of STAB on that set.

To summarize, I earnestly believe Deoxys-e should be allowed in standard play, or at the very least tested again for a set time on ladder play, simply because it is not at all overpowered, and its only real purpose is to metagame against scarfers or dragon danced Pokes. It can conceivably function as a mixed sweeper with life orb and 289 in both attack stats with still 300+ speed with 0 speed evs, yet it won't get STAB on any of its wall breaking moves and therefore isn't ohko'ing much anytime soon.

Aldaron's vote, make Deoxys-e standard!

 

[Acme]

LOL looks like Mekka went to town on Darth. I really did want to say all that, but I'm way too lazy and I decided a couple of words was my time better spent, its not like the guys even from this forum to read your counter-argument. I figured as long as Smogon to ignore him then purpose served right? Good job for doing what I was too lazy to do though Mekka. I guess that's why you have a star next to your name and I dont.

 

[Blue Kirby]

Deoxys-E is the fastest thing in the game, maxing at 504 speed, but has very mediocre attack/sp. attack(95/95). It has a great movepool, but with the low attack...even when scoring a SE hit it might not have enough power to OHKO stuff. It has very low HP, and decent defenses for a sweeper.

Until there are more conclusive results, honestly, this has been talked about time and time again - opening another thread purely to say you think it should be unbanned isn't aiding the situation. I personally do not find one tournament conclusive enough to disclose results. Further testing needs to be done.

Deoxys-LG has base 160 defenses, 10 more than Registeel's base 150, while Registeel has base 80 HP which is way more than Deoxys' base 50. LG suffers from Shuckle syndrome ...

... but I don't think its better than what's available in OU(Cress, most notably), and DEFINETELY isn't in the uber league with the likes of Lugia and Giratina.

Right. It also has a reliable recovery move in the form of Recover, whereas Registeel and Shuckle are both forced to Rest if they want to replenish their HP. It can also make use of Taunt, Snatch, Calm Mind, and can lay down two types of Spikes. It can bounce back moves with Counter and Mirror Coat if it wishes, as well as setting up Reflect and Light Screen. Can Cresselia, Registeel or Shuckle do all of that? Not by a long shot.

 

[umbarsc]

I would agree that a single tournament is not enough evidence to bump down Deoxys-E to OU. Plus you have to take into consideration WHAT set was being used and HOW well people were using it. In Aldaron's post, all he wanted to do with his Deoxys-E was to revenge-kill Dragon Dancers or Choice Scarf users, and thus, that's all it did. Noob A didn't feel like putting Superpower on it, and thus Tyranitar came in easily to Pursuit it, and Blissey walled it like there's no tomorrow.

I think these factors have to be considered as well. Deoxys-A has few OU counters (Spiritomb and Cresselia come to mind), and those already counter big brother Deoxys-A. Deoxys-E is a scaled-down Deoxys-A, but he is still very fucking deadly. He has a gargantuan movepool that makes any stall team cry, and he has an insane Psycho Boost and insane speed to wreck offensive teams (with a little help from Superpower). some people have just called him an inferior Infernape, but Infernape doesn't have access to moves like Pursuit, Extremespeed, Ice Beam, Zen Headbutt, Thunderbolt, etc., and Deoxys can just get HP Fire to make up for lack of Fire Blast (to help against Metagross).

I think the best way to test is to just put him in OU for a certain amount of time, NOT just for a tournament. Or just challenge random people and say "Before this starts, I'm going to tell you that I'm testing an uber".

 

[Shiny Crobat]

Cress can set up Reflect, Toxic/Para, and Calm Mind sweep(which I have done on many occacions). Cresselia neutralizes so many things in the OU it's not even funny, I really think you're understating how good Cress is.

LG has 22 more defenses, and 60 less HP.

To the first poster, the reason Mew is banned is because it has 100 Base across the board and can pass Nasty Plots, Bulk Ups, Calm Minds, etc.

Mew isn't banned because of that. It's banned because it can learn almost any moveset and with those 100 base stats can actually make very good use of that.

Edit: Deoxys LG can do that too :P

 

[Luck]

I stop playing pokemon for couple months and things are still same,People still don't understand what pokemon mess with the balance of the game.If deoxy E was allow in standard play people still wouldn't use it.I am not waste my time arguing because people have their stigma of certain pokemon.

I stop waste my arguing poke,especial ubers it is to subjective for anybody to win.At least see that we are making our own pokes which will put a good fresh spin on the game,I wish instead of trying to put them in current game they basically start for from scratch almost making totally new game but change does not happen over night it takes time.

 

[Peanut-Lover]

Back when the OU tier list was being formed, I think it was Mekkah who said this: Just because it sucks in the tier its in doesn't mean it is to be moved down - If it sucks in that tier and has counters in the lower tier that can effectively wall it, it can be used in the lower tier.

In other words, Deoxys-N and Deoxys-S are to good for OU, and thus shall remain in uber.

 

[Yoko Rains]

I agree with you, those Deoxys are probably one of the weakest ubers...but are they "weak enough" for OU?

...look at Manaphy, hes nothing "amazing" unless hes used in conjunction with Kyogre's Drizzle. But hes an uber.

 

[Great Sage]

I was once inclined to allow Deoxys-D in OU, because a Psychic wall is an extreme liability in D/P and it isn't even immune to Ground like Cresselia, but it has a huge support pool. Spikes, Stealth Rock, and Recover are awesome moves, and Knock Off make Pursuit users less scary, because even Tyranitar won't OHKO if it loses its Choice Band. Deoxys-S can deliver some good attacking power, but it essentially is forced to use Superpower in OU, which kinda limits it. Additionally, it isn't threatening without Life Orb, and dies quickly with it through residual damage. So in conclusion, I'd say Deoxys-S is possible, but not Deoxys-D.

 

[eric the espeon]

i totaly agree with great sage, and though i disagree with almost all of what blazeken_57 is saing i agree with this

I think the best way to test is to just put him in OU for a certain amount of time, NOT just for a tournament. Or just challenge random people and say "Before this starts, I'm going to tell you that I'm testing an uber".

this will decide it once and forall if it is uber then it will be incrediby overused (even after the first few weeks of exitement) and overcentrilise the metegame towards the pokemon that wall it.

 

[gengod]

I think the best way to test is to just put him in OU for a certain amount of time, NOT just for a tournament. Or just challenge random people and say "Before this starts, I'm going to tell you that I'm testing an uber".

The immediate problem with this method is how you are going to obtain and process results to determine if you would allow it in OU or not.

As for just asking random opponents, those fights would probaly be even harder to obtain results for.

After everything it would most likely still end up like the Deoxys -S tournament held on Shoddy with the participants replying in a forum thread to discuss its viability in OU

 

[eric the espeon]

I think the best way to test is to just put him in OU for a certain amount of time, NOT just for a tournament. Or just challenge random people and say "Before this starts, I'm going to tell you that I'm testing an uber".

The immediate problem with this method is how you are going to obtain and process results to determine if you would allow it in OU or not.

As for just asking random opponents, those fights would probaly be even harder to obtain results for.
true, as you say alowing it in OU for a time to test it would be better than the random oponent method.

After everything it would most likely still end up like the Deoxys -S tournament held on Shoddy with the participants replying in a forum thread to discuss its viability in OU
yes. but people who post will have real experiance rarther than a few battles (7 at the most, i only got 4 and only 1 of them even had deoxys, it had icy wind, T wave, psycho bost and recover. not a good test) or theory.

 

[Vampy34]

And we give a damn what you think why...?

This has been debated to death. If you wish to discuss something, bring up something new that hasn't been thrown into a meat grinder already.

this.

I mean honestly, just shut the hell up with Uber->OU discussions. This is almost as bad as the Ho-oh topic that was up a while ago.

 

[Superbro]

Cress can wall a lot of pokes. without multiple stat ups it cannot hit back for much damage. It also cannot do too much statusing. Toxic yes, But you have to have an over specialized set to burn/sleep. Defence form deoxys can recover, knock off, set up spikes, and seismic toss. And toxic, countercoat, AND taunt. That makes if the most active wall ever

Defence Deoxys @ leftovers
Bold 252 hp 152 def 104 sdef
-Recover
-Knock off
-Spikes
-Taunt

This set WILL set up 3 layers of spikes, knock off at least 2 items, and disrupt the opponents setting up of spikes/rocks. Also, cannot be roared out.

Also,

Defence Deoxys @ Leftovers
Calm 252 Hp 252 Sdef 4 def
-recover
-cosmic power
-taunt
-seismic toss/night shade

Cannot be roared out due to taunt. Gets imba defences with cosmic power, kill with toss/shade. Does this better than blissey.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

By "put it into OU for a while", I'm sure you mean "unban on the Shoddy Battle ladder" which is exactly the purpose of the tournament. Note that so far the results have been pretty conclusive (Deoxys-e is not only not uber but mediocre in OU). That's a pretty huge margin of error since being uber means being "way better than Blissey, Garchomp, Gyarados, and friends".

The thing that perturbs me about so many people's attitudes about this is that most people seem to want to say "this is the uber list that we originally got from really dubious methods; never, ever question it". It was actually on the advice of tenchi17 that this tournament happened in the first place since arguing convincingly that a Pokemon isn't uber doesn't seem to be enough (he suggested, probably correctly, that no one cares about such arguments regardless of content), but now that there has been a tournament with so far seemingly clear results (we're still waiting for everyone to weigh in), it's still not enough? The way this should and really needs to work is "not uber unless we have good reason for it to be uber" as opposed to "the current list is right unless you beat us over the head with reasons why it is wrong". I mean, seriously, if Beedrill somehow ended up on the uber list, you guys would want 6 months of foot dragging before unbanning him.

My next project was to focus on Wobbuffet, but it seems like that will be even more problematic. Deoxys-e doesn't even seem that great (when we look at real battles and not theorycraft), but Wobbuffet seems like he'd be top 5 OU if allowed (which is also based on real battles, but I'm the only one I know who has used him). I really think he's about equal in usefulness to Blissey which isn't uber but, with the current process that's 100% opposed to getting anything done, puts him in a nearly impossible position to be unbanned.

So, basically, if we come out of any sort of process to deuber something really unsure about whether it is uber or not, I really think we need to drop the super conservative "never change anything" outlook and go with a "if it's only maybe uber, it's not on the uber list" plan.

 

[eric the espeon]

AA brilliant post, good argument and exelent point. i personly think wobby should probably be Uber, but have no experience so ignore me. i agree that the tiers need to be more flexable, i think the are so unflexable partly because of the "no talking about Ubers>OU rule" that was in place (has it beed removed? i can not find it anymore.) they are many Ubers that are debatable lati@s, Ho-oh, deoxys-d, manaphy, wobby and even though i myself beleve all of the aformentiond pokemon deserve a ban we NEED to be able to talk about them, if the discution thread turns into a flame war then close it but i urge any mod who sees this NOT to reimpose a blanket ban on talking about this issue.

 

[Deucalion2]

The debatable Ubers are, IMO:

Manaphy
Ho-oh
Deoxys-S
Wobbuffet
Wynaut (NFE policy...)
Latias
Latios

Deoxys-D is doubtable, and I'm fairly open on the whole thing. Personally, I think that all of the above list could be non-Uber, and while they would all be in the top 20 used, that doesn't stop us from banning Bliss/Chomp, etc. I support AA's post.

EDIT: first off, read the NFE policy. NFE's belong in the same tier as thier final evolution unless widely different. That places Wynaut in Uber. Second, the Ho-oh logs were not set-ups. Third, I personally disgaree with the Wobbuffet analysis. Forth, theorymon often fails. Just try things out. People like you are why the metagame never moves on. Which is why I entirely support AA's post. I may even sig part of it.

 

[Jediment]

First off, Wynaut isn't an uber. Second, you're the only one debating Ho-oh. In fact, you yourself proved that your "definitive" logs were setups. Manaphy isn't currently under debate IIRC (that is NOT an invitation for someone to make some setup logs and start an argument). Also, read Wobbuffet's analysis for a completely logical and widely accepted explanation as to why he's uber.

The reason Ubers are what they are is because they would too heavily alter the OU metagame to be acceptable. If Deoxys-E were in OU, every team would find itself carrying a Ninjask or Protect/Substitute Yanmega. While Deoxys-E's offensive stats are pretty poor in Ubers, they're respectable for OU. Couple that with Choice Band/Specs and Deoxys' GIGANTIC movepool and you're +1 uber.

A tournament is a relatively poor testing environment. When you go around warning everyone "DEOXYS-E IS IN THIS TOURNAMENT SO PREPARE YOUR TEAMS FOR IT!!!!", you're going to have skewed results. Likely the most accurate way (though it still has flaws) is to simply unleash it on the OU metagame. If the metagame is drastically altered and all sorts of Deoxys-E counter-specific sets pop up, then it's straight back to ubers. And with a Pokemon like Deoxys, that's very likely.

Also, just because a Pokemon isn't used heavily in Ubers doesn't mean it's not uber. Deoxys-RS is the least used Uber by far, but nobody is going to debate its status because it's too powerful for OU.

 

[Chozo]

Couple things.

It's nice when someone writes an essay completely for one side and represents the facts of the side he's arguing against. The mere fact that Deoxys-E can break through your basic stall team with its eyes closed should at least slightly hint towards the fact that it may be a lot better than what's currently allowed???

Infernape can break stall teams, but I don't see a lot of people arguing about how that should be an uber. Worst case scenario is that stall teams find a Pokemon that can shrug off a Boltbeam/Shadow Ball/Superpower Deoxys-S (aka Jirachi, Bronzong), much like Tentacruel walls most mixed Infernapes.

Kinda underestimating Deoxys-E's bulkiness here. Its massive Spd and Pressure makes it even bulkier, because unlike Blissey it can restore 50% of its HP before anything touches it, and if it needs to, stall out a move that hurts it and still have about half of its Recover PP left. I'll admit paralysis screws the bitch over

Yeah, when I think bulky, I think pure psychic typing and 50/90/90 defenses which will likely have little/no EV investment. Anything that can do 75% (+6.25% for lefties) on those defenses (not hard) is not going to be Recover-stalled, and if you are facing the odd Deoxys using Recover that means it's lost a vitally important moveslot for coverage. Admittedly, you could try using a bold 252 Def/252 HP spread, but then you're looking at a wall that is going to be slower than a lot of choice scarfers and one that can't handle most choice banders.

AA:

The thing that perturbs me about so many people's attitudes about this is that most people seem to want to say "this is the uber list that we originally got from really dubious methods; never, ever question it". It was actually on the advice of tenchi17 that this tournament happened in the first place since arguing convincingly that a Pokemon isn't uber doesn't seem to be enough (he suggested, probably correctly, that no one cares about such arguments regardless of content), but now that there has been a tournament with so far seemingly clear results (we're still waiting for everyone to weigh in), it's still not enough? The way this should and really needs to work is "not uber unless we have good reason for it to be uber" as opposed to "the current list is right unless you beat us over the head with reasons why it is wrong". I mean, seriously, if Beedrill somehow ended up on the uber list, you guys would want 6 months of foot dragging before unbanning him.

I agree with this.

People come up with some pretty stupid bullshit about how some Pokes aren't uber ("Ho-Oh is weak to SR", as if putting Ho-Oh on your team precluded you from using Rapid Spinners), but I think the results from the tournament warrant at least a test period on the Shoddy ladder. If the Obis of the Pokemon world figure out how to break Deoxys so badly and prove that he truly is uber, he can go back and hang with Groudon and Kyogre: if not he can stay OU. The problem with theorycraft is that every Pokemon has 20 moveslots, 252 EVs in every stat and always has the best nature for the calculation you're performing at that moment.

EDIT:

The reason Ubers are what they are is because they would too heavily alter the OU metagame to be acceptable.

This is a rather arbitrary designation. Garchomp heavily alters to the OU metagame, but no one's banning him even though nearly every OU team under the sun is packing 2+ Ice Beams with 266 SpA just for him. A better definition of an uber IMO is something that alters the metagame so much that you either have to have it or dedicate a heavy portion of your team just to dealing with it. You can make that argument for Mewtwo, I think you'll have trouble justifying that same argument with Deoxys-S.

If Deoxys-E were in OU, every team would find itself carrying a Ninjask or Protect/Substitute Yanmega. While Deoxys-E's offensive stats are pretty poor in Ubers, they're respectable for OU. Couple that with Choice Band/Specs and Deoxys' GIGANTIC movepool and you're +1 uber.

Not really. 95 is acceptable but definitely in the "I need to hit SE to do anything" category. If your team can handle the offensive force that is Nidoking and special attacking Sharpedo you can likely deal with Deoxys-S no problem.

A tournament is a relatively poor testing environment. When you go around warning everyone "DEOXYS-E IS IN THIS TOURNAMENT SO PREPARE YOUR TEAMS FOR IT!!!!", you're going to have skewed results. Likely the most accurate way (though it still has flaws) is to simply unleash it on the OU metagame. If the metagame is drastically altered and all sorts of Deoxys-E counter-specific sets pop up, then it's straight back to ubers. And with a Pokemon like Deoxys, that's very likely.

Either one is better than theorycraft wanking. Remember when we though Rhyperior was going to be an unstoppable juggernaut? Real experience made liars out of us, so why not try the same with Deoxys?

 

[umbarsc]

You're right, theorymon DOES fail. So therefore, I propose...


MEWTWO IN OU!!!

I know what you're thinking, "He has godly speed and Special attack, not to mention those impressive Swampert-level defenses, with Aura Sphere negating Blissey and Tyranitars as counters, blah blah blah". But I tested and here's what I found out:

Log #1:

Alakazam is Paralyzed! It can't move!
Uxie used Thunderbolt!
(30% Damage)
Alakazam fainted.

Opponent sent out Mewtwo.

I switched in Porygon-Z.
Mewtwo used Shadow Ball!
It doesn't affect Porygon-Z...

Porygon-Z used Tri-Attack!
(70% Damage)
Mewtwo used Psychic!
(97% Damage)

Porygon-Z used Tri-Attack!
Mewtwo fainted!

Theorymonshit didn't take this into account, did they? As you can see, Mewtwo has a hard time switching in (hence why they used it to revenge-kill), and absolutely DIES to Scarf Porygon-Z. This is what first got me into testing Mewtwo for OU. Here's what Mewtwo has died to:

- AgiliGross
- Tyranitar
- Extremespeed Lucario

This was out of eight matches, about. The few times Mewtwo did sweep, it was ONLY because of Ambipom's Nasty Plot passing. Not too impressive, eh? Definitely not as good as Garchomp. Here's another log:

Log #2:

Mewtwo used Ice Beam!
Gliscor fainted!

Opponent sent out Tyranitar!

Mewtwo used Psychic!
It doesn't affect Tyranitar...
Tyranitar used Crunch!
(100% Damage)
Mewtwo fainted!

Honestly, anything that dies to ONE attack is horrible.

This just proves one thing: theorymon fails. Sure, on paper Mewtwo has passable defenses and decent Special Attack, but this is real life. When are you going to find the time to sweep when their are Choice Scarfs and priority moves thrown around? Base 130 looks good on paper, but in real life it's much too slow compared to the likes of Gengar, Garchomp, and Infernape. Oh yeah, go ahead and repeat your dumb "OMG SURGO/JUMPMAN/CHAOS SAYS ITS TEH 00BER, NUB!!!"
---

</satire>

Yeah, for all of you on Shoddy annoyed at my Mewtwo testing, here's why. =P

This is why I believe that actual testing can be as unreliable as theorymon. A lot of experienced players just used their original teams, and had little trouble countering Psychic/Taunt/Zen Headbutt/Snatch Deoxys-E or random shit like that. A lot of people didn't think very much of Deoxys, and just used a BoltBeam/Shadow Ball/Grass Knot Deoxys-E, or just something like that. Some used it purely to Pursuit things, or for support, or for whatever. It doesn't look as reliable as actually looking at things, seeing what can or can't counter something, and how it can switch in.

 

[footballfanatic]

First off, Wynaut isn't an uber. Second, you're the only one debating Ho-oh. In fact, you yourself proved that your "definitive" logs were setups. Manaphy isn't currently under debate IIRC (that is NOT an invitation for someone to make some setup logs and start an argument). Also, read Wobbuffet's analysis for a completely logical and widely accepted explanation as to why he's uber.

The reason Ubers are what they are is because they would too heavily alter the OU metagame to be acceptable. If Deoxys-E were in OU, every team would find itself carrying a Ninjask or Protect/Substitute Yanmega. While Deoxys-E's offensive stats are pretty poor in Ubers, they're respectable for OU. Couple that with Choice Band/Specs and Deoxys' GIGANTIC movepool and you're +1 uber.

A tournament is a relatively poor testing environment. When you go around warning everyone "DEOXYS-E IS IN THIS TOURNAMENT SO PREPARE YOUR TEAMS FOR IT!!!!", you're going to have skewed results. Likely the most accurate way (though it still has flaws) is to simply unleash it on the OU metagame. If the metagame is drastically altered and all sorts of Deoxys-E counter-specific sets pop up, then it's straight back to ubers. And with a Pokemon like Deoxys, that's very likely.

Also, just because a Pokemon isn't used heavily in Ubers doesn't mean it's not uber. Deoxys-RS is the least used Uber by far, but nobody is going to debate its status because it's too powerful for OU.

You've got to be kidding me. Of course people are going to prepare for Deoxys-E. Just like teams prepare for Garchomp, and Infernape. Deoxys-e wouldn't centralize the metagame anywhere close to what Blissey does to it. Something like 90% of OU teams carry Blissey, and everyone has something to counter Blissey. On my current team, I have Dugtrio, who's only job is to trap Blissey, he of course does other things, but that's the reason he's on my team. I also carry a Lucario who can OHKO Blissey with Close Combat, and of course, I have my own Blissey. That's 3/6 of my pokes that are in someway related to Blissey.

Deoxys-e WON'T be on 90% of teams and there's tons of options for countering it(all of the Steel/Psychics, Forretress, Blissey with decent prediction, Cresselia, etc. etc.).

The question we should be asking ourselves isn't if it would be good, or even VERY good(which there are a lot of in OU) but if it would be TOO good.

IMO it doesn't come close to things like Blissey or T-tar.

 

[Jediment]

For one thing, just because something has counters in OU doesn't mean that it's not an Uber. Skarmory is countered by Probopass so therefore Skarmory must be UU. Of course not. When you look at the suggested movesets for Deoxys-E, you don't realize they're tailored specifically for the Uber environment alone. Those movesets obviously don't hold up as well as they could in OU. Deoxys-E could easily have a destructive OU moveset with Hidden Power [Fire]//Superpower//Shadow Ball//Psycho Boost/Grass Knot. That just removed every counter you listed with room to spare. You could even put Recover on it, since its defenses are decent (sans the HP) and it'll be able to snag a recover in before any non-priority attack or Ninjask (after 1 speed boost).

Blissey doesn't exactly shatter the metagame the way you seem to think it does. There are things in this world called "physical attackers" that kill Blissey no problem. But for Deoxys-E, you'd need priority moves on at least 2 Pokemon or you'd need a Substitute/Protect/X-Scissor Ninjask (which may not OHKO, I'll calc that). 476 SpA is a lot and very few things can withstand it (that's Choice Specs, LO is 412). It's not simple enough that an Aldaron Hitmontop will OHKO it no problem with Bullet Punch (like Deoxys-A...by your logic then, that would make Deoxys-A an OU).

Additionally, people who think only Kyogre and Rayquaza and Palkia should be in Ubers (people who post these topics) simply prove they know nothing about Ubers.