Lots of responses! Thanks to everyone for asking their questions and I am excited to get through as many as I can. This will be part 1 of what could ultimately be a few.
Rhyperior is an ok check to Volcarona and Zeraora, but it also is a Ground type facing stiff competition from other more versatile and practical options. With Rotom-Heat on the decline and team structures slowly beginning to standardize, there really has been no place for Rhyperior to settle and not too much reason to make use of it.
As for Victini, it provides a versatile offensive pivot that soft-checks Tapu Lele and abuses common defensive pivots like Corviknight, Clefable, and Skarmory. Both specially and physically oriented sets function, too, which makes it a little challenging to approach initially for most teams. Overall, Victini is still very limited and does not strike me as an A tier presence, but it has enough going for it to overcome a handful of shaky match-ups when it has tools to cover them and also pivots around many would-be roadblocks with U-turn.
Zapdos has actually had a few really impactful games in WCoP and I think its rank is more than justified, but Mandibuzz can likely drop. There was no consensus on it yet, perhaps due to lack of firsthand experience, but I agree a small drop could be appropriate. I would not be surprised if we voted on it next time around, so stay tuned!
Finally, thanks for helping out with your responses!
As for Bisharp, check my response to IQMathlete above!
I disagree with the bolded claim profusely. For reference, it was squarely C+ -- receiving 4 votes for B-, 4 votes for C+, and 2 votes for C. There is virtually no reason to use Crawdaunt right now outside of Trick Room teams and that is a fringe archetype where it is not even mandatory. If Crawdaunt had not initially been ranked higher, I would have personally backed it to go lower, too, giving it another vote for C. Why? Let's examine it.
If you want a Dark type breaker, CB Weavile is a bit less strong, but faster and far easier to string together progress with. In addition, Triple Axel can actually lure common switch-ins to be 2HKOs if it connects. Bisharp with both Choice Band and SD is more common, effective, and also practical/possible to fit onto teams. As for Crawdaunt, it previously had a niche as an absolute wrecking ball offensively, but we are seeing Tapu Fini and Urshifu-R often, both of which make this no longer possible. Buzzwole also is barely taking half and can Roost off damage while always outspeeding it, which is essentially another strong check to add on. Hell, even Tapu Bulu and Kommo-O are slowly starting to resurface, which is adding insult to injury at this point.
And say you do not want it as a breaker, but rather as a win condition with SD or even DD, there is no way this will ever work out well. Free turns are oftentimes a struggle to come by, it faces stiff competition from other physical sweepers like Garchomp, Zeraora, the aforementioned Dark types, Landorus-T, Dragonite, Kartana, Rillaboom,, etc., and it does not ever actually...sweep...which seems like a bad quality for a sweeper. +2 Aqua Jet is never going to get past Dragapult, Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, Dragonite, Kyurem, Grasses, etc...like at best it can pick one kill if a team lacks one of the handful of common Pokemon that actually checks it. This metagame could not possibly be less friendly to Crawdaunt and we have seen absolutely no succesful uses of Crawdaunt in recent weeks.
It is absolutely not standing out in C+ either. Azumarill has a much greater chance to actually steal a win than it, Jirachi has a practical defensive niche, Latis cling on to viability in a number of regards, Suicune can be a gnarly win condition, and various others have actually seen uses at a high level succesfully recently. None of these Pokemon are worse than Crawdaunt right now. Meanwhile if you go through B-, every single option is fringe, but they all have clear niches in the tier and are not facing the same outclassing issue (besides maybe Blaziken, which at least is beginning to pop up on offenses despite this). Given this, I really disagree with the claim you made that I bolded and I believe Crawdaunt deserved to drop as it did.
Thanks to everyone for their posts -- more responses coming!
It is true that Amoonguss does well against Urshifu-R and Tapu Fini, which are both trendy picks, but you also have to realize that this then means you are...using Amoonguss. Amoonguss, outside of Spore, is one of the most passive Pokemon, enabling Spikes, virtually every Steel type, and a ton of threatening offensive options such as Weavile, Dragonite, and Volcarona. Spore is less likely than ever to land with the abundance of Misty Terrain, clashing status, and other Grass types, too. There is really no way for it to fit teams and be worthwhile right now; this is not even mentioning the fact that we never see it either.What's the rationale behind Amoonguss dropping? I'd imagine it'd be doing better rather than worse now with the rise of Urshifu-R and Fini and the constant demand for Knock Off absorbers, I've used it a decent amount and it's still quite reliable.
Just because they are both Dark types does not mean there is anything else tying them together, let alone their individual viability. Weavile is faster, which is a huge plus right now, making it far less reliant on Sucker Punch and far more threatening to opposing offense. Weavile has approached staple status on bulky-offense and hyper-offense due to this. Bisharp is still strong, but it struggles to break for a Pokemon that provides little premium status offensively (unlike Weavile, which is a premier revenge killer) or defensively (not even checking what most other Steel types can).Why did Weavile rise, but Bisharp drop?
It was barely hanging on to viability before, but recently a lot of teams have been using the Choice Specs set with Teleport support. It is one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, always forcing progress with the aid of Trick. Blacephalon is still mediocre, but it is absolutely a viable option and can be distinguished from other Fire and Ghost types, which play very differently right now. Dragapult is weaker and lacks trick, Volcarona is more of a sweeper than breaker, Heatran is a vastly different option, etc.why did blacephalon rise? seems worse than the other fire and ghost types roaming the tier
Excadrill is not really able to "take care of most teams" with the abundance of Corviknight, defensive Landorus-Therian, and Skarmory right now. This coupled with strong priority like Grassy Glide or natural checks like Urshifu-Rapid and Garchomp being common makes it a tough metagame for Excadrill, which also does not handle the same things other Steel types tend to. Dedicated Sand with Sand Rush(ers) in general is on the decline right now while Hippowdon balance takes a tick up in viability.im curious about the drop of Excadrill and Rhyperior, Excadrill is still strong as a sand sweeper being able to take care of most teams and even its checks with help or even as a lead on HO teams, and Rhyperior can still be useful as a check to Heatran and Volcarona
Rhyperior is an ok check to Volcarona and Zeraora, but it also is a Ground type facing stiff competition from other more versatile and practical options. With Rotom-Heat on the decline and team structures slowly beginning to standardize, there really has been no place for Rhyperior to settle and not too much reason to make use of it.
Zeraora was not close to dropping in all honesty. The pivot and BU sets are both phenomenal. Hippowdon does steamroll it, especially if Zeraora lacks Toxic, but every Pokemon can have one hard counter and still be ok. Look at Volcarona with Heatran or Landorus-T with Skarmory. Zeraora still provides an alternative form of speed control, an Electric immunity, a Tornadus-T check, and a very dynamic offensive option against virtually every offensive team in a metagame growing more fast paced each day. BU Zeraora carves up teams reliant on Landorus-T or Garchomp for it as it gets an early Knock Off and outlasts them with ease with some timely pivots and the help of Heavy Duty Boots.Why hasn't Zeraora dropped yet? The pivoting sets aren't very useful in the current state of the format with the rise of Hippo and the Bulk Up set is a pretty good cleaner but not enough to warrant A+
We see a lot less Slowbro and physically defensive Toxapex though, which makes Regenerator a bit less problematic as damage sticks or even turns into kills outright.say, why'd zapdos-g rise? I thought the whole "regenerator mons eat through its HP quicker than acid" making it not all that good of a breaker thing was holding it back.
Blacephalon I answered in response to aqh so check that out.I think the rises are just about what was being expected but Vic and Blace are 2 mons I am still a bit curios about. Most of the mons that rose have seem to have a good matchup against them like Tran, Pex, Fini, Kommo O, Hippo, etc. The meta game trends seem be going even most against them than before yet they rose. What new functions/sets are they fulfilling/using?
As for Victini, it provides a versatile offensive pivot that soft-checks Tapu Lele and abuses common defensive pivots like Corviknight, Clefable, and Skarmory. Both specially and physically oriented sets function, too, which makes it a little challenging to approach initially for most teams. Overall, Victini is still very limited and does not strike me as an A tier presence, but it has enough going for it to overcome a handful of shaky match-ups when it has tools to cover them and also pivots around many would-be roadblocks with U-turn.
Grimmsnarl has a nice niche as a screen setter that does well against Dragapult, which oftentimes shreds these hyper offensive teams otherwise. This salvages it for now, but I am not huge on it as a consistent presence in the metagame myself.Grimm rise is also interesting as I have mostly seen Koko as the preferred screens setter on teams. Wonder about this too.
I'd prefer specific questions rather than general; the main point of opening this thread up was giving the people what they specifically needed rather than listing descriptions like normal due to the size of the update, so I think this would be a little counterintuitive. With this said, you still are someone who follows the thread and you asked this, so I will confirm that those Pokemon were far more viable during the Spectrier metagame, yes. If you have other specific questions, ask here or message me and I will gladly expand.As to drops, I have little clue about most below the C ranks. I have not seen these mons in OU in a long time let alone use them so I have so idea of why they dropped. From what I understand, the C ranks were not updated for a long time so mons like Zarude, Obstagoon, Diggersby were part of the older Spectrier meta and were deserving of a drop since then.
Would love to know the reasoning of the changes to the C ranks. These mons have been agreed to be niche but what have made them worse in the current meta game trends?
Crawdaunt is pretty much impossible to use right now. It was already fringe in a metagame where it did work every time it got in due to how slow and fragile it was. Now that is far from a given. We see an uptick in Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, and Buzzwole, which all check it a couple of times. Crawdaunt is not something I would ever consider using right now.Most of these drops and rises were as I expected, but why was Crawdaunt dropped so much, what niche does Celesteela still have, and why weren't Mandibuzz and Zapdos dropped after their near-disappearance and low usage and success, respectively in WCoP?
Zapdos has actually had a few really impactful games in WCoP and I think its rank is more than justified, but Mandibuzz can likely drop. There was no consensus on it yet, perhaps due to lack of firsthand experience, but I agree a small drop could be appropriate. I would not be surprised if we voted on it next time around, so stay tuned!
Finally, thanks for helping out with your responses!
What Katy said is accurate entirely on these; if you have more questions on specifics, ask in the SQSA and I will be sure to provide my input there.Why the rises for Glowking and Fini?
Mostly agree with what Katy said here as well, but I do want to note that I think it at least has some fringe viability and ranked it C-. Yes, it is mediocre and harder to fit, but some teams it outright devours. I think C- is just as fair as UR right now and we may return to it later on!Really agree with most changes, but I don't understand why Gyarados to UR. Sure, it can only really be used on HO but there it always felt like it has better snowball potential and better typing than its main competition dragonite.
Mimikyu is pitifully weak and incapable of accomplishing anything defensively. With the abundance of Landorus-T, Toxapex, Scizor, Melmetal, and revenge killing options, Disguise is not enough to salvage Mimikyu in OU given how lackluster it is as a Pokemon otherwise. You cannot really fit it onto any teams right now either, unfortunately.Why is mimikyu unranked? I know its not that good and usally outclassed but i figured disguise, ghost priority and sd along with good utility moves would give it a niche? Something i missed in the meta maybe?
Also recently got it on my switch and i have been keen to use it alongside clef and dragopault as a sorta ghost/fairy spam thing.
See my response to TailGlowVM for this one!What’s the reason for Crawdaunt’s drop?
As for Toxapex: Not entirely true, Slowking dropped down from S and we are seeing a lot more Toxapex with Knock Off, Toxic, and even sometimes Light Screen in order to at least mitigate the issues in that match-up. Heatran is as good as ever, but that has been a constant that also was true when Toxapex was A+ previously. I think it is fringe between A and A+ right now, but it would stand-out a bit too much in the A rank crowd, so it got the votes for A+ right now. This could change -- we are likely to continue voting on Pokemon in the A and A+ ranks anyway.How did Pex rise back to A+? Future Sight is still rampant, and Heatran is as good as ever
Also, why did Bisharp fall to A-?
As for Bisharp, check my response to IQMathlete above!
Again, really mainly intended this to be open to questions rather than criticisms, but this is obviously in good faith and it can be construed as more of an inquiry for further explanation rather than a rebuttal, so this is fine so long as a million other posters do not follow suit with less genuine intent. It seems like you read the other Crawdaunt responses given this, so going to elaborate a bit more on this bolded claim regardless of my prior points in Crawdaunt in response to other people asking about it.Why did Crawdaunt drop two subranks to C+ rather than one to B-? I can understand a drop, as the meta’s a lot less friendly than it used to be (Gomi’s post makes sense to me), but at least IMO it’s inarguably better than everything else in C+ and very in-line with the B- mons, so it kinda stuck out as a weird jump to me.
I disagree with the bolded claim profusely. For reference, it was squarely C+ -- receiving 4 votes for B-, 4 votes for C+, and 2 votes for C. There is virtually no reason to use Crawdaunt right now outside of Trick Room teams and that is a fringe archetype where it is not even mandatory. If Crawdaunt had not initially been ranked higher, I would have personally backed it to go lower, too, giving it another vote for C. Why? Let's examine it.
If you want a Dark type breaker, CB Weavile is a bit less strong, but faster and far easier to string together progress with. In addition, Triple Axel can actually lure common switch-ins to be 2HKOs if it connects. Bisharp with both Choice Band and SD is more common, effective, and also practical/possible to fit onto teams. As for Crawdaunt, it previously had a niche as an absolute wrecking ball offensively, but we are seeing Tapu Fini and Urshifu-R often, both of which make this no longer possible. Buzzwole also is barely taking half and can Roost off damage while always outspeeding it, which is essentially another strong check to add on. Hell, even Tapu Bulu and Kommo-O are slowly starting to resurface, which is adding insult to injury at this point.
And say you do not want it as a breaker, but rather as a win condition with SD or even DD, there is no way this will ever work out well. Free turns are oftentimes a struggle to come by, it faces stiff competition from other physical sweepers like Garchomp, Zeraora, the aforementioned Dark types, Landorus-T, Dragonite, Kartana, Rillaboom,, etc., and it does not ever actually...sweep...which seems like a bad quality for a sweeper. +2 Aqua Jet is never going to get past Dragapult, Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, Dragonite, Kyurem, Grasses, etc...like at best it can pick one kill if a team lacks one of the handful of common Pokemon that actually checks it. This metagame could not possibly be less friendly to Crawdaunt and we have seen absolutely no succesful uses of Crawdaunt in recent weeks.
It is absolutely not standing out in C+ either. Azumarill has a much greater chance to actually steal a win than it, Jirachi has a practical defensive niche, Latis cling on to viability in a number of regards, Suicune can be a gnarly win condition, and various others have actually seen uses at a high level succesfully recently. None of these Pokemon are worse than Crawdaunt right now. Meanwhile if you go through B-, every single option is fringe, but they all have clear niches in the tier and are not facing the same outclassing issue (besides maybe Blaziken, which at least is beginning to pop up on offenses despite this). Given this, I really disagree with the claim you made that I bolded and I believe Crawdaunt deserved to drop as it did.
Thanks to everyone for their posts -- more responses coming!