Resource SS OU DLC2 Viability Ranking Thread [SEE: Page 105, Post 2618]

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Finchinator

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Lots of responses! Thanks to everyone for asking their questions and I am excited to get through as many as I can. This will be part 1 of what could ultimately be a few.
What's the rationale behind Amoonguss dropping? I'd imagine it'd be doing better rather than worse now with the rise of Urshifu-R and Fini and the constant demand for Knock Off absorbers, I've used it a decent amount and it's still quite reliable.
It is true that Amoonguss does well against Urshifu-R and Tapu Fini, which are both trendy picks, but you also have to realize that this then means you are...using Amoonguss. Amoonguss, outside of Spore, is one of the most passive Pokemon, enabling Spikes, virtually every Steel type, and a ton of threatening offensive options such as Weavile, Dragonite, and Volcarona. Spore is less likely than ever to land with the abundance of Misty Terrain, clashing status, and other Grass types, too. There is really no way for it to fit teams and be worthwhile right now; this is not even mentioning the fact that we never see it either.
Why did Weavile rise, but Bisharp drop?
Just because they are both Dark types does not mean there is anything else tying them together, let alone their individual viability. Weavile is faster, which is a huge plus right now, making it far less reliant on Sucker Punch and far more threatening to opposing offense. Weavile has approached staple status on bulky-offense and hyper-offense due to this. Bisharp is still strong, but it struggles to break for a Pokemon that provides little premium status offensively (unlike Weavile, which is a premier revenge killer) or defensively (not even checking what most other Steel types can).
why did blacephalon rise? seems worse than the other fire and ghost types roaming the tier
It was barely hanging on to viability before, but recently a lot of teams have been using the Choice Specs set with Teleport support. It is one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, always forcing progress with the aid of Trick. Blacephalon is still mediocre, but it is absolutely a viable option and can be distinguished from other Fire and Ghost types, which play very differently right now. Dragapult is weaker and lacks trick, Volcarona is more of a sweeper than breaker, Heatran is a vastly different option, etc.
im curious about the drop of Excadrill and Rhyperior, Excadrill is still strong as a sand sweeper being able to take care of most teams and even its checks with help or even as a lead on HO teams, and Rhyperior can still be useful as a check to Heatran and Volcarona
Excadrill is not really able to "take care of most teams" with the abundance of Corviknight, defensive Landorus-Therian, and Skarmory right now. This coupled with strong priority like Grassy Glide or natural checks like Urshifu-Rapid and Garchomp being common makes it a tough metagame for Excadrill, which also does not handle the same things other Steel types tend to. Dedicated Sand with Sand Rush(ers) in general is on the decline right now while Hippowdon balance takes a tick up in viability.

Rhyperior is an ok check to Volcarona and Zeraora, but it also is a Ground type facing stiff competition from other more versatile and practical options. With Rotom-Heat on the decline and team structures slowly beginning to standardize, there really has been no place for Rhyperior to settle and not too much reason to make use of it.
Why hasn't Zeraora dropped yet? The pivoting sets aren't very useful in the current state of the format with the rise of Hippo and the Bulk Up set is a pretty good cleaner but not enough to warrant A+
Zeraora was not close to dropping in all honesty. The pivot and BU sets are both phenomenal. Hippowdon does steamroll it, especially if Zeraora lacks Toxic, but every Pokemon can have one hard counter and still be ok. Look at Volcarona with Heatran or Landorus-T with Skarmory. Zeraora still provides an alternative form of speed control, an Electric immunity, a Tornadus-T check, and a very dynamic offensive option against virtually every offensive team in a metagame growing more fast paced each day. BU Zeraora carves up teams reliant on Landorus-T or Garchomp for it as it gets an early Knock Off and outlasts them with ease with some timely pivots and the help of Heavy Duty Boots.
say, why'd zapdos-g rise? I thought the whole "regenerator mons eat through its HP quicker than acid" making it not all that good of a breaker thing was holding it back.
We see a lot less Slowbro and physically defensive Toxapex though, which makes Regenerator a bit less problematic as damage sticks or even turns into kills outright.
I think the rises are just about what was being expected but Vic and Blace are 2 mons I am still a bit curios about. Most of the mons that rose have seem to have a good matchup against them like Tran, Pex, Fini, Kommo O, Hippo, etc. The meta game trends seem be going even most against them than before yet they rose. What new functions/sets are they fulfilling/using?
Blacephalon I answered in response to aqh so check that out.

As for Victini, it provides a versatile offensive pivot that soft-checks Tapu Lele and abuses common defensive pivots like Corviknight, Clefable, and Skarmory. Both specially and physically oriented sets function, too, which makes it a little challenging to approach initially for most teams. Overall, Victini is still very limited and does not strike me as an A tier presence, but it has enough going for it to overcome a handful of shaky match-ups when it has tools to cover them and also pivots around many would-be roadblocks with U-turn.
Grimm rise is also interesting as I have mostly seen Koko as the preferred screens setter on teams. Wonder about this too.
Grimmsnarl has a nice niche as a screen setter that does well against Dragapult, which oftentimes shreds these hyper offensive teams otherwise. This salvages it for now, but I am not huge on it as a consistent presence in the metagame myself.

As to drops, I have little clue about most below the C ranks. I have not seen these mons in OU in a long time let alone use them so I have so idea of why they dropped. From what I understand, the C ranks were not updated for a long time so mons like Zarude, Obstagoon, Diggersby were part of the older Spectrier meta and were deserving of a drop since then.
Would love to know the reasoning of the changes to the C ranks. These mons have been agreed to be niche but what have made them worse in the current meta game trends?
I'd prefer specific questions rather than general; the main point of opening this thread up was giving the people what they specifically needed rather than listing descriptions like normal due to the size of the update, so I think this would be a little counterintuitive. With this said, you still are someone who follows the thread and you asked this, so I will confirm that those Pokemon were far more viable during the Spectrier metagame, yes. If you have other specific questions, ask here or message me and I will gladly expand.
Most of these drops and rises were as I expected, but why was Crawdaunt dropped so much, what niche does Celesteela still have, and why weren't Mandibuzz and Zapdos dropped after their near-disappearance and low usage and success, respectively in WCoP?
Crawdaunt is pretty much impossible to use right now. It was already fringe in a metagame where it did work every time it got in due to how slow and fragile it was. Now that is far from a given. We see an uptick in Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, and Buzzwole, which all check it a couple of times. Crawdaunt is not something I would ever consider using right now.

Zapdos has actually had a few really impactful games in WCoP and I think its rank is more than justified, but Mandibuzz can likely drop. There was no consensus on it yet, perhaps due to lack of firsthand experience, but I agree a small drop could be appropriate. I would not be surprised if we voted on it next time around, so stay tuned!

Finally, thanks for helping out with your responses!
Why the rises for Glowking and Fini?
What Katy said is accurate entirely on these; if you have more questions on specifics, ask in the SQSA and I will be sure to provide my input there.
Really agree with most changes, but I don't understand why Gyarados to UR. Sure, it can only really be used on HO but there it always felt like it has better snowball potential and better typing than its main competition dragonite.
Mostly agree with what Katy said here as well, but I do want to note that I think it at least has some fringe viability and ranked it C-. Yes, it is mediocre and harder to fit, but some teams it outright devours. I think C- is just as fair as UR right now and we may return to it later on!
Why is mimikyu unranked? I know its not that good and usally outclassed but i figured disguise, ghost priority and sd along with good utility moves would give it a niche? Something i missed in the meta maybe?

Also recently got it on my switch and i have been keen to use it alongside clef and dragopault as a sorta ghost/fairy spam thing.
Mimikyu is pitifully weak and incapable of accomplishing anything defensively. With the abundance of Landorus-T, Toxapex, Scizor, Melmetal, and revenge killing options, Disguise is not enough to salvage Mimikyu in OU given how lackluster it is as a Pokemon otherwise. You cannot really fit it onto any teams right now either, unfortunately.
What’s the reason for Crawdaunt’s drop?
See my response to TailGlowVM for this one!
How did Pex rise back to A+? Future Sight is still rampant, and Heatran is as good as ever

Also, why did Bisharp fall to A-?
As for Toxapex: Not entirely true, Slowking dropped down from S and we are seeing a lot more Toxapex with Knock Off, Toxic, and even sometimes Light Screen in order to at least mitigate the issues in that match-up. Heatran is as good as ever, but that has been a constant that also was true when Toxapex was A+ previously. I think it is fringe between A and A+ right now, but it would stand-out a bit too much in the A rank crowd, so it got the votes for A+ right now. This could change -- we are likely to continue voting on Pokemon in the A and A+ ranks anyway.

As for Bisharp, check my response to IQMathlete above!
Why did Crawdaunt drop two subranks to C+ rather than one to B-? I can understand a drop, as the meta’s a lot less friendly than it used to be (Gomi’s post makes sense to me), but at least IMO it’s inarguably better than everything else in C+ and very in-line with the B- mons, so it kinda stuck out as a weird jump to me.
Again, really mainly intended this to be open to questions rather than criticisms, but this is obviously in good faith and it can be construed as more of an inquiry for further explanation rather than a rebuttal, so this is fine so long as a million other posters do not follow suit with less genuine intent. It seems like you read the other Crawdaunt responses given this, so going to elaborate a bit more on this bolded claim regardless of my prior points in Crawdaunt in response to other people asking about it.

I disagree with the bolded claim profusely. For reference, it was squarely C+ -- receiving 4 votes for B-, 4 votes for C+, and 2 votes for C. There is virtually no reason to use Crawdaunt right now outside of Trick Room teams and that is a fringe archetype where it is not even mandatory. If Crawdaunt had not initially been ranked higher, I would have personally backed it to go lower, too, giving it another vote for C. Why? Let's examine it.

If you want a Dark type breaker, CB Weavile is a bit less strong, but faster and far easier to string together progress with. In addition, Triple Axel can actually lure common switch-ins to be 2HKOs if it connects. Bisharp with both Choice Band and SD is more common, effective, and also practical/possible to fit onto teams. As for Crawdaunt, it previously had a niche as an absolute wrecking ball offensively, but we are seeing Tapu Fini and Urshifu-R often, both of which make this no longer possible. Buzzwole also is barely taking half and can Roost off damage while always outspeeding it, which is essentially another strong check to add on. Hell, even Tapu Bulu and Kommo-O are slowly starting to resurface, which is adding insult to injury at this point.

And say you do not want it as a breaker, but rather as a win condition with SD or even DD, there is no way this will ever work out well. Free turns are oftentimes a struggle to come by, it faces stiff competition from other physical sweepers like Garchomp, Zeraora, the aforementioned Dark types, Landorus-T, Dragonite, Kartana, Rillaboom,, etc., and it does not ever actually...sweep...which seems like a bad quality for a sweeper. +2 Aqua Jet is never going to get past Dragapult, Urshifu-R, Tapu Fini, Dragonite, Kyurem, Grasses, etc...like at best it can pick one kill if a team lacks one of the handful of common Pokemon that actually checks it. This metagame could not possibly be less friendly to Crawdaunt and we have seen absolutely no succesful uses of Crawdaunt in recent weeks.

It is absolutely not standing out in C+ either. Azumarill has a much greater chance to actually steal a win than it, Jirachi has a practical defensive niche, Latis cling on to viability in a number of regards, Suicune can be a gnarly win condition, and various others have actually seen uses at a high level succesfully recently. None of these Pokemon are worse than Crawdaunt right now. Meanwhile if you go through B-, every single option is fringe, but they all have clear niches in the tier and are not facing the same outclassing issue (besides maybe Blaziken, which at least is beginning to pop up on offenses despite this). Given this, I really disagree with the claim you made that I bolded and I believe Crawdaunt deserved to drop as it did.

Thanks to everyone for their posts -- more responses coming!
 

Finchinator

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Why did Conkeldurr (and other trick room mons) drop at least I don't see any significant changes that warrant the drop? and why did Rhyperior get UR it still threatens most deffogers thanks to its typing and even smack down as well as being able to check some beasts like Volc and Zera?
Trick Room has probably been a C- playstyle for a while now, but we finally got to voting on the C ranks this update. It has been uncommon and unremarkable for months. Conkeldurr is viable on it, but it faces stiff competition in other settings, so it fell accordingly.

Rhyperior reasoning can be found in my response to Mimikyu Stardust in my prior post!
Great VR shift imo, really nice to see the C ranks getting cleaned up a bit. I feel as tho zarude could have dropped further than C+ though, as a relic of the spectrier meta. Curious to see reasoning that keeps it on par with mons like the latis and terrakion. Also, what's with bulu and victini to B+? Seems like they are strictly worse than the rest of that rank.
Zarude was close to dropping further, but it still has some niches with Future Sight giving it free set-up opportunities and making it challenging to swap into. I think next drop will make it more likely to fall again and it was on the fringe anyway, so stay tuned!

Tapu Bulu and Victini got touched on nicely by TailGlowVM's post, but just to note: Tapu Bulu's SD + 3A LO set is quite threatening, especially with Future Sight support, and Victini I touched on in my response to Jokler in my prior post if you want to see more.
Why is Regieleki still at C? I have seen a lot of UR or C- nomination for this mon, but is there a reason to stay Regieleki at C?
Why is Glastrier at C+? TR specific mons are mostly at C-(Hatt, Mak-A) or C(Cresselia), and ice horse is near useless outside of TR.
Nah, we should really unrank Regieleki. I agree. It has no niche, but a lot of people still seem to use it on the ladder compared to other C-, C, and even C+ Pokemon, so there is some pause there. I am hoping to vote on it this time -- we did not really address it this time around as much as other Pokemon. Stay tuned!

Glastrier has a slight niche outside of TR with an SD 3A set being pretty hard to 1v1. It is able to tank even super effective attacks like Heatran Magma Storm or Buzzwole Close Combat depending on spreads and deal out tons of damage with a Swords Dance, which is very easy to get. Of course, it is still fringe due to being slow and not truly checking anything, leading to it ending up a challenging option. I think this niche alone saves it from C-, but I believe C rank would be very fair. We will try to vote on it again moving forward.
Soo why did victini rise to B+, it seems like a B pokemon, it struggle sto keep up with threats like heatran, toxapex, dragapult, weavile, the rising tapu fini and dragonite. I may be missing tho since I have been out of date with the world cup and also have not seen very many noms on it
Check out what TailGlowVM said and what I said in response to Jokler in my prior post on this topic. It has tools to get past a number of those Pokemon and Victini's versatility and ability to pivot around would-be hard checks gives it some leverage here.
I nominated Toxicroak here and just wanted to know the reasoning behind leaving it UR
Nobody really thought it was worth ranking, unfortunately. There are a ton of match-ups where it is outright useless and it never fits on to truly competitive teams. I would argue that the barrier to be ranked right now is lower than normal, with C- rank in particular being a bit bloated, so I am ok looking into it again in the future, but for now we absolutely did not support it enough.

It is not even a reliable check to Rillaboom/Kartana, which is the main reason to use it on Rain, and Rain teams thrive on being overwhelming while accepting some vulnerabilities. You are compromising your overall effectiveness to have a flimsy line of defense against a couple of Pokemon that you ultimately still struggle with. I appreciate creativity and using Pokemon from lower tiers (have a whole YT series dedicated to it right now even -- I am sure Toxicroak is a fun bring), but I do not think this reaches the threshold necessary to be ranked right now.
Why Melmetal rose btw? It is completely shutdown by corvi and pex, two mons you see pretty much everywhere in OU.
It is not completely shut down by either of these two Pokemon.

This should be caught up now. If you guys have anymore questions over the next 24 hours, go for it. I will try to get to each of them sometime this weekend, but no promises -- could bleed into Monday. Thanks again and hope everyone enjoys :)
 

scorbunnys

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Pls rank Sylv and Lurk :pleading_face:
On a serious note, I want to ask, why did Alakazam dropped to C-? It looks like a powerful wallbreaker so im interested on that.
 
I'd prefer specific questions rather than general; the main point of opening this thread up was giving the people what they specifically needed rather than listing descriptions like normal due to the size of the update, so I think this would be a little counterintuitive. With this said, you still are someone who follows the thread and you asked this, so I will confirm that those Pokemon were far more viable during the Spectrier metagame, yes. If you have other specific questions, ask here or message me and I will gladly expand.
Ah, I guess I couldn't word it properly. I was not asking for the rationale behind every individual mon, I was just more so curious about the drastic change to the C ranks as a whole. I remember people rallying for the C ranks being cleared up sometime ago so I wanted to confirm if this is putting that plan in action or have there been some drastic changes for these mons. I was pretty sure that these mons were relics of older metagames changing and have gotten worse overtime rather than instantly become bad due to new trends in the same meta game but seeing the usage stats or lack of thereof for them made me wonder if there is more to it than just them just being parts of outdated meta games which you did confirm to be the reason so I did get my answer. Well thanks and sorry for the miscommunication.
 

AM

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Pls rank Sylv and Lurk :pleading_face:
On a serious note, I want to ask, why did Alakazam dropped to C-? It looks like a powerful wallbreaker so im interested on that.
Alakazam is a powerful wallbreaker with Life Orb but because of the frequency of Dragapult and Weavile on teams it's too hard to justify on a regular basis, providing 0 defensively utility, relying on Focus Blast to hit to break past things like Corviknight among other issues. Most times it would be forced to run Sash so that it doesnt just die right away but at that point you've committed yourself to a Spikes build and delegated it as a cleaner of sorts, thus losing most of your power to break fat. Not a good mon, can be fun to use once in awhile.
 
:tapu-koko:
ayo I’m wondering about Tapu Koko? Mon is so sick rn, I think it could’ve warranted a rise up to A+ personally- it has great matchups against the majority of the top mons right now, and most Ground types just get worn away so fast by Gleam and Uturn. It even has that dope CM set popping up, tbh I think it should’ve risen. Am I missing something?
 

Finchinator

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I want to ask, why did Alakazam dropped to C-? It looks like a powerful wallbreaker so im interested on that.
AM did a great job on this! Alakazam is really hard to get going right now. It is in a speed tier which is just behind the revenge killers like Dragapult, Zeraora, Weavile, Tornadus-T, etc. and it is just shy of being a true special powerhouse as it cannot 2HKO things like Slowking, Mandibuzz, and even SDef Clefable. Being too fragile and a hair too slow does not make Alakazam worthwhile of the sacrifices you have to make with the rest of your team sadly.
Ah, I guess I couldn't word it properly. I was not asking for the rationale behind every individual mon, I was just more so curious about the drastic change to the C ranks as a whole. I remember people rallying for the C ranks being cleared up sometime ago so I wanted to confirm if this is putting that plan in action or have there been some drastic changes for these mons. I was pretty sure that these mons were relics of older metagames changing and have gotten worse overtime rather than instantly become bad due to new trends in the same meta game but seeing the usage stats or lack of thereof for them made me wonder if there is more to it than just them just being parts of outdated meta games which you did confirm to be the reason so I did get my answer. Well thanks and sorry for the miscommunication.
This was just backlog of C rank changes that did not get address in the prior slate due to focusing more on higher ranks. Some of these even dated back to Spectrier meta, so you know it was a while. And no worries, always glad to discuss and sorry for the miscommunication!
Why is Heatran S- and not S?
We do not believe it is on par with Dragapult or Landorus-T, but we also believe it is above the A+ rank Pokemon. It received no real support to be among those two, but it was almost universally believed to be above the A+ rank Pokemon currently.
:tapu-koko:
ayo I’m wondering about Tapu Koko? Mon is so sick rn, I think it could’ve warranted a rise up to A+ personally- it has great matchups against the majority of the top mons right now, and most Ground types just get worn away so fast by Gleam and Uturn. It even has that dope CM set popping up, tbh I think it should’ve risen. Am I missing something?
Tapu Koko is a great option and we considered moving it up to A+, but we did not quite get the support. I personally see it as being A right now due to stiff competition among other potential forms of speed control, specifically Zeraora. Tapu Koko can use the CM set, which is popular, but it is still pretty inconsistent. It also can use the pivot set, which is still good, but nothing remarkable alone. Finally, the dual screens set is solid, but it does not stand out now more than ever before. I believe we should keep it as is due to it largely remaining the same and the metagame not favoring it much more. I think it has room to bump up to A+ if it has a bit more room and we will likely re-vote on it again moving forward!
 

Finchinator

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FTMP I agree with the changes but howcome Clefable didn’t rise? It has great utility and support and I feel like it should go at least -S with Heatran. I’m also confused on why Hydregion didn’t rise because it’s great for checking Heatran and the Nasty Plot set is definitely great for breaking nowadays.
Clefable got some discussion between A+ and S-, but ultimately fell a couple of votes short. It is easily one of the best utility options as it soaks up status and checks things like Dragapult, but there are more and more ways to abuse it by the day, even if it has some versatility between sets. Things like Melmetal are just the tip of the iceberg and you need to hold yourself accountable for these things when building balance, which does lead to limiting team structures. Clefable is still a top 7 Pokemon in the tier and it is probably next closest to S-, but for now, we will keep it in A+ and vote again next time.

As for Hydreigon, we did not really consider bumping it. If anything, it has seen a huge dip in usage recently. Clefable, as we alluded to, is superb ad Tapu Fini is seeing more usage than ever. Every possible revenge killer makes quick work of Hydreigon and Heatran can run Toxic to limit it. Hydreigon has a clear niche and can be strong in the right match-up, but it is checked by a lot of things both offensively and defensively, leaving it in an awkward spot right now.
 
was tyranitar considered for a drop in the slate? with the decline of sand and the extreme passiveness of defensive sets, i'm not sure if it has a place sitting with victini and mew esp since it doesn't check it's main target dragapult well. (cb sets at least)
 
Why is hatterene and slowbro-galar still ranked? I'm guessing for hatterene it's because of trick room but I genuinely can't think of a good argument you could make for slowbro-galar being ranked. Have you guys also considered ranking Terrakion and Mamoswine higher because I know that was a discussion a lot of people were having in this thread a while ago.
 

pulsar512b

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Why is hatterene and slowbro-galar still ranked? I'm guessing for hatterene it's because of trick room but I genuinely can't think of a good argument you could make for slowbro-galar being ranked. Have you guys also considered ranking Terrakion and Mamoswine higher because I know that was a discussion a lot of people were having in this thread a while ago.
something something belly drum quick draw/quick claw gg for slowbro-galar
(ok yes thats a meme set but its something)
 
What niche does victini have? I assume a V create band set would be effective but not against heatran, a recent s rank edition and it can’t deal a lot of damage to it. With focus blast it could, but it would have to spread its evs too thin. I just don’t understand what it does well.
 
What niche does victini have? I assume a V create band set would be effective but not against heatran, a recent s rank edition and it can’t deal a lot of damage to it. With focus blast it could, but it would have to spread its evs too thin. I just don’t understand what it does well.
victini is a cool pokemon right now because it is a threatening wallbreaker with appealing and practical defensive utility. v-create is a ridiculously strong move that has great nuking power, especially with more hippowdon going for a spdef ev spread it can be ridiculously difficult to switch into. glaciate fucks with the other good ground-types. toxapex are also shifting to specially defensive ev spreads some more, meaning bolt strike does a very fair amount. the fact slowking is one of the main fire-type resists being used is also a nice bonus; victini sends it to the shadow realm.

on top of all that it has going for it as a wallbreaker, victini's honestly quite durable with heavy duty boots and can make great use of its typing with them as a result; being able to switch into stuff like lele atleast once or twice is great for bulky offenses.

its true that heatran is annoying but bolt strike + stealth rock does ~40%, which can quickly rack up, especially if you manage to remove heatran's leftovers.
 

Finchinator

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was tyranitar considered for a drop in the slate? with the decline of sand and the extreme passiveness of defensive sets, i'm not sure if it has a place sitting with victini and mew esp since it doesn't check it's main target dragapult well. (cb sets at least)
It was briefly, but it did not quite drop. It may be a candidate in the future, but CB may leave it hanging on to some similar levels of viability. We will keep an eye on it!
Why is hatterene and slowbro-galar still ranked? I'm guessing for hatterene it's because of trick room but I genuinely can't think of a good argument you could make for slowbro-galar being ranked. Have you guys also considered ranking Terrakion and Mamoswine higher because I know that was a discussion a lot of people were having in this thread a while ago.
Hatterene is a unique offensive presence with a premium ability. Hard to use in general, but still fits on TR as you indicate.

Slowbro-Galar has seen a few sporadic uses as a mixed defensive tank, but it's close to falling off. It was more fringe to be ranked in all honesty. CM Slowbro-Galar is viable for now, but this could drop off in the future. I have seen it less and less over time personally. Of course, there's Quick Draw, too, but that's nothing relevant right now.
What niche does victini have? I assume a V create band set would be effective but not against heatran, a recent s rank edition and it can’t deal a lot of damage to it. With focus blast it could, but it would have to spread its evs too thin. I just don’t understand what it does well.
Jordy hit the nail on the head here!
 
For Victini, is there an argument to using a Hasty nature when running glaciate? Victini is better at pivoting into special moves like psychics and freeze drys, while not having a negative special nature allows you to cleanly 2HKO a tank garchomp with leftovers. Sorry if this should go in simple questions thread, I just figured there has been a lot of victini discussion here so it would be appropriate here.
 
For Victini, is there an argument to using a Hasty nature when running glaciate? Victini is better at pivoting into special moves like psychics and freeze drys, while not having a negative special nature allows you to cleanly 2HKO a tank garchomp with leftovers. Sorry if this should go in simple questions thread, I just figured there has been a lot of victini discussion here so it would be appropriate here.
Even when running Jolly with Glaciate you still get the 2HKO to the main targets, and sure getting the clean 2HKO on tank Garchomp could be nice , but being Hasty basically makes you weaker from Bullet Punch for no reason, especially since Victini acts as an offensive check to Scizor so the Special Attack drop isn't that bad while giving you some decent bulk without affecting them.
 
Ok let’s go first nominations.

:garchomp: +A -> A
I’m probably wrong but yea I don’t think this thing is +A tier anymore. Lando is 100% a Garchomp check. The calcs at +1 are way too small and Lando can Toxic it, and basically trade for it. There are also a variety of other things that slow the SD set down like priority users, and strong defensive birds like Skarmory. Additionally, we see the rise of faster mons with type advantage like Weavile and Fairy types like Fini that easily take it out.

:Arctozolt: C -> C+
Hail is probably the new best weather now and Arctozolt is actually really good. This thing has NO switch ins with Bolt Beak + Freeze Dry + Low Kick/ ST. Hail is just really strong rn especially with Aurora Veil and other good partners like Swampert that go with Arctozolt.

:Volcarona: A -> -A
This mon really isn’t as good as it seems imo. Teams seem to either completely lose to this, or completely destroy it. There’s just so many ways to stop the sweep. Many mons like Landorous survive +1 Flamethrower and OHKO with something like Stone Edge, and there’s hard walls like Fini, Heatran, Blissey, Dnite, and it’s not that big of a problem nowadays.
 
Ok let’s go first nominations.

:garchomp: +A -> A
I’m probably wrong but yea I don’t think this thing is +A tier anymore. Lando is 100% a Garchomp check. The calcs at +1 are way too small and Lando can Toxic it, and basically trade for it. There are also a variety of other things that slow the SD set down like priority users, and strong defensive birds like Skarmory. Additionally, we see the rise of faster mons with type advantage like Weavile and Fairy types like Fini that easily take it out.

:Arctozolt: C -> C+
Hail is probably the new best weather now and Arctozolt is actually really good. This thing has NO switch ins with Bolt Beak + Freeze Dry + Low Kick/ ST. Hail is just really strong rn especially with Aurora Veil and other good partners like Swampert that go with Arctozolt.

:Volcarona: A -> -A
This mon really isn’t as good as it seems imo. Teams seem to either completely lose to this, or completely destroy it. There’s just so many ways to stop the sweep. Many mons like Landorous survive +1 Flamethrower and OHKO with something like Stone Edge, and there’s hard walls like Fini, Heatran, Blissey, Dnite, and it’s not that big of a problem nowadays.
I completely disagree with not only the arctozolt nomination but the claim that hail is the best weather. I mean I know that sand has fallen off a bit but to say that it's worse than hail is complete blasphemy. I have never seen a rise in arctozolt or hail ever since arctozolt rose.The only time I've seen arctozolt in high level play is in one WCOP replay and in no way does that automatically mean a pokemon is now C+ in the viability rankings.You're going to need to clarify more about why arctozolt should rise because simply claiming that hail is the best weather out of nowhere is a complete BS claim that isn't going to convince or fool anyone that arctozolt deserves a rise.Also don't get me started about the no switch ins argument,It's been done before with primarina and I'm not about to explain for 3 pages as to why that argument is flawed
 

pulsar512b

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is a Pre-Contributor
I completely disagree with not only the arctozolt nomination but the claim that hail is the best weather. I mean I know that sand has fallen off a bit but to say that it's worse than hail is complete blasphemy. I have never seen a rise in arctozolt or hail ever since arctozolt rose.The only time I've seen arctozolt in high level play is in one WCOP replay and in no way does that automatically mean a pokemon is now C+ in the viability rankings.You're going to need to clarify more about why arctozolt should rise because simply claiming that hail is the best weather out of nowhere is a complete BS claim that isn't going to convince or fool anyone that arctozolt deserves a rise
look at your teambuilder and see how many can deal with arctozolt well

:)

FWIW- I decided to do this with my teambuilder- most of the recent teams (since Zama suspect) I have lose hard to it, and the one team that doesn't has Scizor as it's main means of dealing with it which is uh not ideal
 
I completely disagree with not only the arctozolt nomination but the claim that hail is the best weather. I mean I know that sand has fallen off a bit but to say that it's worse than hail is complete blasphemy. I have never seen a rise in arctozolt or hail ever since arctozolt rose.The only time I've seen arctozolt in high level play is in one WCOP replay and in no way does that automatically mean a pokemon is now C+ in the viability rankings.You're going to need to clarify more about why arctozolt should rise because simply claiming that hail is the best weather out of nowhere is a complete BS claim that isn't going to convince or fool anyone that arctozolt deserves a rise.Also don't get me started about the no switch ins argument,It's been done before with primarina and I'm not about to explain for 3 pages as to why that argument is flawed
I 100% agree with you. I should have explained more. Hail is good mainly because of Aurora Veil + the strong sweepers like Arctozolt. Like the post above me already says Arctozolt literally has 0% switch ins as of now which is why it should rise. With Slush Rush it outspeeds almost all of the tier and it hits super hard. Hail is super strong and annoying to deal with because of this and you can add other partners and sweepers along with it.

Edit: Ok I read the post again. Yea not even defensive Melmetal can switch into Arctozolt because it is 3 hit KOed and Double Iron bash may not even 2 hit KO with Aurora Veil. There is literally nothing you can bring in against this thing. You have to sac like half your team to take it out. It’s probably been C+ or higher all along now that I’m thinking. This Ninetails + Arctozolt combination hands down tops all other weather combinations. Here’s some calcs for Arctozolt, and it under Aurora Veil.
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Bolt Beak (170 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Melmetal: 185-218 (39 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO :melmetal: (max def)
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Stomping Tantrum vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 338-400 (87.5 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO :Heatran: (spdef)
252 Atk Arctozolt Stomping Tantrum vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 158-186 (56.2 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO :Tapu Koko:
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Ferrothorn: 177-208 (50.2 - 59%) -- 75.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery :Ferrothorn: (Utility)
252 Atk Life Orb Arctozolt Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 309-367 (76.2 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO :Kyurem: (sub roost)

252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt with an ally's Aurora Veil: 228-268 (71 - 83.4%) -- approx. 2HKO :Melmetal: (Banded)
116 Atk Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt with an ally's Aurora Veil: 126-150 (39.2 - 46.7%) -- approx. 3HKO :Melmetal: (non banded)
252+ Atk Choice Band Rillaboom Grassy Glide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt in Grassy Terrain with an ally's Aurora Veil: 130-153 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery :rillaboom:
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt with an ally's Aurora Veil: 77-90 (23.9 - 28%) -- 93% chance to 4HKO :scizor:
 
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