Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[1LDK]

Not this mixed Set:

Palafin-Hero @ Life Orb
Level: 100
Naughty Nature
Ability: Zero to Hero
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch
- Boomburst
- Bulk Up

Edit: Now give me my 5 Bucks :P

Bro really forgave flip turn/u turn/Wave crash just to steal my lunch money
On another topic, we dont know yet who is the second mon gone but with Flutter Mane out of the picture, what are the mons that would love it and see more use out of it, in my opinion, probably defensive mons like bliss, Goldhengo, and offensive frail mons like Pult, also Frosted Flakes tiger, Wallmart Mega Gallade and Moonbird be looking real tasty rn fr fr no cap on god sheeeeeeeeesh

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Guys the bans are all but confirmed to be Flutter Mane + Houndstone unless Finch has been absolutely jebaiting OU Chat with "its spooky season"

The reason seems kinda simple enough: If both are eventually gonna be a problem, why ban one when the other will relatively slot in. At this point, Flutter Mane has warped the meta so much to have so many answers that people are unironically stating it isn't a problem while running 3 checks and a Tera normal. Houndstone is hitting the same problems but still being a menace despite that. You're not moving the needle on the metagame enough to see real change if you just have one fast ghost bomb threat banned for another to replace in reasonably well.

Are they not banning Last Respects? Or is it just Houndstone in the vein of Dracovish?

 

[Empress Mobile]

Are they not banning Last Respects? Or is it just Houndstone in the vein of Dracovish?

I imagine it would be the Pokemon. Moves are usually only banned if they are widely distributed and broken across many different Pokemon

 

[Joseph Gomes]

Are they not banning Last Respects? Or is it just Houndstone in the vein of Dracovish?

There is only one user of Last Respects atm, so might as well ban the pokemon

 

[sufys]

Are they not banning Last Respects? Or is it just Houndstone in the vein of Dracovish?

Because Fishious Rend is not broken on Arctovish, Dracovish is a different case entirely.
Since it's a signature move, they have no way to prove that Last Respects is what's broken (though I would say that it is axiomatic that it is) so they'll just ban Houndstone (which is unfortunate since it looks like it could have a niche in some lower tiers when they come out - after all it is a bulky Pokemon with Fluffy and Will-O-Wisp).
Last Respects will probably be banned if there are ever are any other users at some point.

 

[escarlata]

BU Palafin will get 100% banned at this rate, encore Iron Bundle seems quite desperate tbh lol

Second Wave ban surely? I don't see anything handling this set consistently

Palafin@ Leftovers
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Taunt
- Jet Punch
- Drain Punch

PDef Gyarados is probably the most consistent check to Taunt BU Palafin because it hits for 2-4% after Intimidate and Lefties. Half of Gyarados's effectiveness lies in the surprise value of Thunder Wave though, since some Palafin user like to plays greedy with BU expecting DD. I always try for TWave regardless, if I get Taunted I just DTail it out the next turn. The main problem is that Gyarados doesn't really do much in return either, I've tried Chilling Water to blank out BU's Atk boost forever, but funny enough Chilling Water literally doesn't deal any damage through Palafin's own Lefties. I've even considered running Body Slam to Paralyse Palafin through Taunt, which just exemplifies the fact that Palafin is still a big problem.

Set

Gyarados @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Waterfall
- Dragon Tail
- Thunder Wave
- Protect
I used to run Iron Head with 88 SpD for Flutter and Valiant, but with Flutter basically confirmed to be gone, it has a lot more freedom to run DTail. Really solid check to Chien-Pao, Roaring Moon and Iron Valiant too depending on your choice of moves over Protect

Scarf Rotom-W with WoW and Trick is pretty nice tech too, you can either outspeed to dodge the Taunt, then burn him or just Scarf lock him forever, though admittedly both of these are just band-aid solutions to this stupidly overpowered Dolphin.

 

[Porygon2Bandit]

Because Fishious Rend is not broken on Arctovish, Dracovish is a different case entirely.
Since it's a signature move, they have no way to prove that Last Respects is what's broken (though I would say that it is axiomatic that it is) so they'll just ban Houndstone (which is unfortunate since it looks like it could have a niche in some lower tiers when they come out - after all it is a bulky Pokemon with Fluffy and Will-O-Wisp).
Last Respects will probably be banned if there are ever are any other users at some point.

By time Home releases and we get the other last respects users that will cause the complex ban, we won't even be CLOSE to a tier Last Respect-less Houndstone will fall into. That thing is NU or lower without it as none of the sand setters should be lower than UU this year.

 

[sufys]

By time Home releases and we get the other last respects users that will cause the complex ban, we won't even be CLOSE to a tier Last Respect-less Houndstone will fall into. That thing is NU or lower without it as none of the sand setters should be lower than UU this year.

Banning a move isn't a complex ban. But yeah it'll just continue to fall until those tiers become available.

 

[Finchinator]

Flutter Mane and Houndstone are banned from SV OU via unanimous decision! For more, check out the post on their ban here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/flutter-mane-and-houndstone-are-banned-from-sv-ou.3711131/

 

[Fancy1]

Flutter Mane and Houndstone are banned from SV OU via unanimous decision! For more, check out the post on their ban here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/flutter-mane-and-houndstone-are-banned-from-sv-ou.3711131/

bro just banned my pet Gunther rip

 

[Vurnoise]

Basculegion can't be released quick enough

Houndstone died for Last Respects sins...

 

[Bugboy]

Damn cyclizar was pretty close to ban

 

[Trickydood]

Flutter Mane is a very viable Tera-Fire user, so Iron Treads is only a good check

252 SpA Tera-Fire Flutter Mane Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads: 168-198 (52.3 - 61.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

And God forbid if it's sunny out there, because sun is super popular right now

252 SpA Tera-Fire Flutter Mane Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Iron Treads in Sun: 252-296 (78.5 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is ignoring any chip damage or spike, btw.

Thanks, didn't think about tera fire.

 

[Wizarus]

I'd hate to lose Basculegion just for Last Respects, just ban the move. Houndstone even had potential Fluffy sets it could have used in lower tiers. Unfortunate.

 

[G-Luke]

And if Palafin Jet Punches Bundle?

It's ass loses lol

 

[Morkal]

Really happy with the quick ban results; personally, I didn't have too much issue with Houndstone, but I could see how it would be a huge problem, and I'm just overall glad that Flutter Mane got the boot. I'd like to share a Pokemon and set I've been using to great results

Gholdengo @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Good as Gold
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Make It Rain
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Power Gem

Scarf Gholdengo is such a nice surprise tech option that nukes half of the tier with its great coverage, and thanks to its ability, it can't be stopped by status as other Scarf users can.

Make It Rain and Shadow Ball are both great STAB moves, while Thunderbolt and Power Gem round out the set with nice coverage. I run Tera Type Grass so that I can nail something that will use Earthquake on Gholdengo for a good amount of damage.

 

[furyofyuriy]

Well with Flutter Mane gone, it might be worth looking into Mismagius this gen. It's movepool is vast this gen, but something that I find interesting is it's interaction with the electric tera type functionally making it have 0 weaknesses. 105 is a respectable speed stat and it is immune to spikes. Will it be a solid OU mon? I can't be sure on that, but the idea of a mon that has 0 weaknesses is pretty interesting.

I would also like to add that thanks to Orthworms ability, Earth Eater, it also has this unique no weakness combo with Tera type electric

 

[Rikter]

I'm not really sure if i'm surprised or unsurprised that Chien-Pao got 0 votes in favor for banning. While it looks super strong it never really felt like it just decided the entire game on it's own when I used it or played against it. I haven't played very much since day 1 but not having to dedicate 1 slot to my own Flutter Mane then another 3 for checks to Flutter Mane sounds like it'll be a lot funner. Houndstone I am happy to see go but I will fully admit I am not a very good player and had no idea how to actually play around it considering like everything else it can just Terastalize itself and deal with those supposed amazing normal types who ignore last respects.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Flutter Mane's gone. Good riddance, although I saw like 2 of them only? Houndstone is...a bit surprising, but Last Respects breaks it to hell and back. Sad to see, but if Basculegion turns out broken too, maybe it could establish a niche in the lower tier?

Now, we should have another ban wave coming up. Palafin might be made into sushi, but it may have a niche in Ubers as a Koraidon check that can do some damage. Other ban options might be good, too. Roaring Moon is surprisingly hard to set up, but Chien-Pao is...a better Weavile. Surprised it didn't get a vote to ban though. Revival Blessing is likely going to be nuked as soon as it's implemented.

On another note, Sandy Shocks could be decent as a Flutter Mane-esque wallbreaker that can't quite clean and is slower, but hits around as hard after a Booster Energy. Electric/Ground is decently potent, and it also has quite a strong Volt Switch. Finally, it can smack stuff such as Iron Jugulis, Iron Treads, and other things. With the dearth of good pivots, I think it could be worth a try on some teams.

 

[Morkal]

I'm not really sure if i'm surprised or unsurprised that Chien-Pao got 0 votes in favor for banning. While it looks super strong it never really felt like it just decided the entire game on it's own when I used it or played against it. I haven't played very much since day 1 but not having to dedicate 1 slot to my own Flutter Mane then another 3 for checks to Flutter Mane sounds like it'll be a lot funner. Houndstone I am happy to see go but I will fully admit I am not a very good player and had no idea how to actually play around it considering like everything else it can just Terastalize itself and deal with those supposed amazing normal types who ignore last respects.

That's because Chien-Pao is easily counterable, I'm not surprised at all. Really its only advantages are that it hurts hard and has a good STAB combination. In all honesty, I think Weavile is better in some regards.

I think Shed Tail as a move should be the next major concern; as it's not just Cyclizar that can abuse it in a ridiculous manner. (Also Bulk Up Palafin is kinda nasty)

 

[GraylyHen94]

Don't immediately ban Tera as a whole. Aim to tame it and give it time with various nerfs to try and keep it in the game. This isn't like DMax where it's completely unrealistic. If there's gonna be a ban I urge everyone to consider limiting it to one designated Pokemon per team that is announced to the opponent. This mechanic is fascinating and deserves to be moderated rather than completely removed. It's been a blast in doubles and I don't want to see every meta just throw it out the window. If having one Mon with it clear to the opponent is still too much then more action is appropriate but at the very least it must be given time and nerfs. People kept Drizzle around in BW for ages and went through bans for it, as did Baton Pass's messy history. It is not out of the question to attempt to tame Tera types. This gen has so much potential in it for Tera and I don't want to see it gone immediately

As for paradox Mons I believe removing Booster Energy should be taken into account. Pardon me if I'm late on info, I've been grinding SFIV for a tourney and I haven't had time to read through this. Booster Energy is a free one time boost that you get off the rip with a plethora of powerful Mons. I know sun still enables Mons like Flutter to be menaces to society but at least you can do something vs weather. These Mons need time to settle down rather than a Battle Spot Singles supreme item ruining their potential and reputation

 

[Dead by Daylight]

I think Shed Tail as a move should be the next major concern; as it's not just Cyclizar that can abuse it in a ridiculous manner.

Here's the thing: Cyclizar has such an optimized array of attributes that let it abuse Shed Tail to its full potential. If you think about it, smacking the substitute on the switch out could just net you free damage on the Shed Tailer and nothing that you lost; however, Regenerator means that even after a failed Shed Tail attempt, it can keep trying until it manages to pull one off.

Don't immediately ban Tera as a whole. Aim to tame it and give it time with various nerfs to try and keep it in the game. This isn't like DMax where it's completely unrealistic. If there's gonna be a ban I urge everyone to consider limiting it to one designated Pokemon per team that is announced to the opponent. This mechanic is fascinating and deserves to be moderated rather than completely removed. It's been a blast in doubles and I don't want to see every meta just throw it out the window. If having one Mon with it clear to the opponent is still too much then more action is appropriate but at the very least it must be given time and nerfs. People kept Drizzle around in BW for ages and went through bans for it, as did Baton Pass's messy history. It is not out of the question to attempt to tame Tera types. This gen has so much potential in it for Tera and I don't want to see it gone immediately

I doubt Smogon has the ability to nerf mechanics. That was the focal point of the argument on frostbite, which for the record is a way better option than freeze. If we are keeping a (probably busted) mechanic in the game for the sole reason that "oh, it's the gen's mechanic!", we end up with chaotic metagames such as pre-Dynamax ban G8 OU or Pure Hackmons. Also, Baton Pass's messy history was since it could be used in a way not detrimental to the competitive spirit of the game; Terastallization can't do even that. Defensive Terastallization still changes the defensive core of a team significantly, and one should not be punished for losing since their opponent Terastallized their Pokemon into something that they could not break.

 

[nabstadex]

All the "counters" to Chien-Pao are demolished by Fire or Electric Tera Blast. Pao has too many viable sets and it's one of the few mons that can make full use of the Terastal gimmick in all 3 variants (defensive, Tera Blast coverage and super-STAB). Once more people will figure this out its brokeness will become self-evident. Take a look at more complete metagames such as NatDex to see its full potential -- Pao is top 5 material there.

Iron Bundle is Flutter Mane's replacement in many ways worse. Snow teams will dominate until the next wave of bans. Protip: Slowking has excellent synergy with ice types and Bundle gets Aurora Veil and Flip Turn. Get ready to deal with this cancer core.

 

[Finchinator]

I'd hate to lose Basculegion just for Last Respects, just ban the move. Houndstone even had potential Fluffy sets it could have used in lower tiers. Unfortunate.

As I explicitly said, it's likely we can ban the move when another Pokemon learns it and then both Pokemon get unbanned.

 

[Morkal]

Honestly, if we're talking about nerfing Tera as a mechanic, why not ban Tera Blast as a move?
That way, random Pokemon don't just get a third STAB move in coverage unless a coverage move is already part of a Pokemon's movepool.
I think it's a decent first approach, and it means we don't have to do weird complex mechanic bans; it's just a move ban.