Timid usually (It's not available in SV right now)
So technically, yes.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
- Status
If they already Terastallized they cannot
I've been having a lot of fun with Sylveon lately, pretty much the only thing holding it back is the cheese stick on every team. Depending on the gholdengo set it's workable, but it's still annoying. Also thanks to the cheese stick you pretty much have to run HDB, when leftovers would be preferable. Max hp max def with wish, protect, calm mind, and hyper voice makes sylveon a fantastic wish passer and a threatening setup sweeper who can still brawl quite well even without boosts. With the majority of the top tier mons being fighting dark or dragon, pure fairy typing is better than its ever been, and sylveon won't take your tera like skeledirge. Speaking of, I prefer to run tera poison to block toxic and reverse the type chart, but there's plenty of options depending on what you want to cover. Even with gholdengo unbanned its a solid OU mon imo, but if cheese man ever gets banned, it'll become a top tier threat for sure.
espathra broken. shed tail renders balance unviable. revival blessing is cracked. these are the 3 easiest bans rn imo. after that I think annihilape, roaring moon, and chi-yu should probably be looked at in that order. if it wasn't for some hilariously fat pokemon like dondozo, ting lu and garganacl running around the tier would just be an HO slugfest which makes for a pretty boring metagame
Last edited:
alephgalactus
Banned deucer.
Well, this certainly aged well. Bet that friend is having a good time right now
I tried espathra early on in this generation with all of those ridiculous pokemon still running around, with the tera fairy set thats being spammed currently. It had a lot of success with simple cyclizar support. But I had plenty of opportunities to set up even without using cyclizar, expecially since teams were incredibly fat and slow due to palafin running around.
Being able to tera into a type with an immunity or resistance you need is just a godsend for any set-up sweeper, and its more obvious on the more snowbally pokemon like espathra. And things like screens and shed tail support honestly pale in comparison to a type change. You don't even need to run much support beyond not running a different tera reliant sweeper to get espathra going.
Common ways to stop set-up sweepers
-haze: not actually sure if this is common anymore without toxapex, but toxapex is poison type anyway and loses if you are running substitute.
-Revenge killing with something faster: well, its got speed boost and 105 base speed so good luck
-Revenge killing with priority: This still works decently, special mention to scizor and talonflame for having super effective priority for its common tera
-Unaware: stored power circumvents this eventually
-Phazing: works pretty well still, shoutout ting lu, but can sometimes only delay the inevitable. probably the best way to deal with espathra right now
-Resisting moves / just being that tanky and knocking them out after taking a hit: even unresisted stored power hits like a truck after enough boosts, so you'll need immunity with dark type, but then dazzling gleam or tera fighting gets you. pokemon like chi yu or grimmsnarl might be neutral to one tera type, but they are weak to the other. And you can't tera into a good typing because you have to be dark type to take it on, and a mono dark pokemon is weak to dazzling gleam or tera blast fighting.
-ditto: it can stop espathra if its not behind a sub, but has to lock itself into a psychic move, so at least it probably wont sweep you back.
-focus sash: i guess it works, but its probably not worth mentioning since hazard support is really easy this gen
I'm sure I'm missing a lot, and I may be too dismissive of some counterplay, but you can see that a lot of the usual counterplay for sweepers isn't so useful.
Of course, thats assuming espathra got set up, so how well does it set up. With screens or shed tail its fairly easy, you only need like two calm minds to sweep in most cases. But even on its own, most espathra run bulk to tank hits from passive walls with relative ease and click calm mind. Then the choice between protect(more consistent, stay healthier) or substitute(helpful against status) to get those speed boosts. And of course, a timely tera decision can give you an extra turn to click calm mind.
That extra turn (and extra STABs) makes espathra incredibly dangerous and probably broken just on its own, because 1 extra turn to use calm mind makes so many pokemon turn from 2hko to ohko.
As a side note, I think without tera it would still find itself as a very strong sweeper that you need to remember in teambuilder, but maybe not overpowering. And I think that we are going to find the same thing with a lot of set up sweepers. That extra turn or two from a good tera makes mons that can sweep very very good at it. An extra turn on stallish or passive pokemon means you get a hazard or a status condition off. An extra turn for these offensive sweepers means a pokemon is gone or your entire team is about to be swept.
Being able to tera into a type with an immunity or resistance you need is just a godsend for any set-up sweeper, and its more obvious on the more snowbally pokemon like espathra. And things like screens and shed tail support honestly pale in comparison to a type change. You don't even need to run much support beyond not running a different tera reliant sweeper to get espathra going.
Common ways to stop set-up sweepers
-haze: not actually sure if this is common anymore without toxapex, but toxapex is poison type anyway and loses if you are running substitute.
-Revenge killing with something faster: well, its got speed boost and 105 base speed so good luck
-Revenge killing with priority: This still works decently, special mention to scizor and talonflame for having super effective priority for its common tera
-Unaware: stored power circumvents this eventually
-Phazing: works pretty well still, shoutout ting lu, but can sometimes only delay the inevitable. probably the best way to deal with espathra right now
-Resisting moves / just being that tanky and knocking them out after taking a hit: even unresisted stored power hits like a truck after enough boosts, so you'll need immunity with dark type, but then dazzling gleam or tera fighting gets you. pokemon like chi yu or grimmsnarl might be neutral to one tera type, but they are weak to the other. And you can't tera into a good typing because you have to be dark type to take it on, and a mono dark pokemon is weak to dazzling gleam or tera blast fighting.
-ditto: it can stop espathra if its not behind a sub, but has to lock itself into a psychic move, so at least it probably wont sweep you back.
-focus sash: i guess it works, but its probably not worth mentioning since hazard support is really easy this gen
I'm sure I'm missing a lot, and I may be too dismissive of some counterplay, but you can see that a lot of the usual counterplay for sweepers isn't so useful.
Of course, thats assuming espathra got set up, so how well does it set up. With screens or shed tail its fairly easy, you only need like two calm minds to sweep in most cases. But even on its own, most espathra run bulk to tank hits from passive walls with relative ease and click calm mind. Then the choice between protect(more consistent, stay healthier) or substitute(helpful against status) to get those speed boosts. And of course, a timely tera decision can give you an extra turn to click calm mind.
That extra turn (and extra STABs) makes espathra incredibly dangerous and probably broken just on its own, because 1 extra turn to use calm mind makes so many pokemon turn from 2hko to ohko.
As a side note, I think without tera it would still find itself as a very strong sweeper that you need to remember in teambuilder, but maybe not overpowering. And I think that we are going to find the same thing with a lot of set up sweepers. That extra turn or two from a good tera makes mons that can sweep very very good at it. An extra turn on stallish or passive pokemon means you get a hazard or a status condition off. An extra turn for these offensive sweepers means a pokemon is gone or your entire team is about to be swept.
Espathra @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Lumina Crash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick
- U-turn
I'm having fun with THIS Espathra set. Why use the best option when you can meme? Lumina Crash is a fun move, Opportunist is a fun ability.
Ability: Opportunist
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Lumina Crash
- Dazzling Gleam
- Trick
- U-turn
I'm having fun with THIS Espathra set. Why use the best option when you can meme? Lumina Crash is a fun move, Opportunist is a fun ability.
i found trace gardevoir to be a good check to it (espathra)
Just to be totally clear so there's no confusion: Charizard is fully available in game with its Gen 9 movepool as of Thursday afternoon. Charmander and Charmeleon too since this Charizard has no trouble breeding. You can get it in whatever nature you want, ability you want, or shiny (We also would have nature mints now, so there are no awkward nature lock outs a la the Gen 4 beasts anyway anymore).
To me it just comes down to the same stuff enabling easy Espathra/Ape/any sweeps, in conjunction with screens that are impossible to defog and Cyclizar just getting a field day passing a sub on broken mons. Tera just adds a layer of impredictability and i don't think the metagame is in a place where i can enjoy it atm compared to VGC.
I really think the Cyclizar noban was pivotal for this and while i do think Ape and Espathra are stupid, it's just the many layers of support they get and the lack of options to deal with them that really push them to the top in my opinion
Even if we get to ban them, we'll just get new abusers on the field that can set up as easily. I think there is a clear consensus on what should probably go by that point
I really think the Cyclizar noban was pivotal for this and while i do think Ape and Espathra are stupid, it's just the many layers of support they get and the lack of options to deal with them that really push them to the top in my opinion
Even if we get to ban them, we'll just get new abusers on the field that can set up as easily. I think there is a clear consensus on what should probably go by that point
Last edited:
Honestly I think the biggest problem we have currently is just the overabundance of offensive threats that can't be stopped reasonably. I am fine when a meta is more inclined to offense, but it gets very tiring when the whole meta revolves around it and defensive counterplay is so limited. Chi-Yu is the worst offender of this in my opinion, Chien-Pao is also a mess however
Cyclizar is very difficult but I think we need to look at these super offensive threats first. They would be (and already are in many games) problematic without a sub
Annihilape however I am really fine with. The condition to get huge BPs on Rage Fist isn't all that easy to reach and when you reach it, yeah it's kinda deserved. It's like getting up 5 Dragon Dances or something
Espathra is something I never thought much about, but yeah they're really fucking braindead to play
I was against banning Gholdengo at first but now, yeah fuck the coin stack. Hazard Stacking will still be prominent if/when it goes, but at least reasonable counterplay without overstraining the teambuilding will be possible
So yeah I just really wanna see Chi-Yu and Gholdengo get the boot. Chien-Pao I would be on board with too, Espathra I am not fully sure, somewhat against Cyclizar and fully against banning Annihilape
Cyclizar is very difficult but I think we need to look at these super offensive threats first. They would be (and already are in many games) problematic without a sub
Annihilape however I am really fine with. The condition to get huge BPs on Rage Fist isn't all that easy to reach and when you reach it, yeah it's kinda deserved. It's like getting up 5 Dragon Dances or something
Espathra is something I never thought much about, but yeah they're really fucking braindead to play
I was against banning Gholdengo at first but now, yeah fuck the coin stack. Hazard Stacking will still be prominent if/when it goes, but at least reasonable counterplay without overstraining the teambuilding will be possible
So yeah I just really wanna see Chi-Yu and Gholdengo get the boot. Chien-Pao I would be on board with too, Espathra I am not fully sure, somewhat against Cyclizar and fully against banning Annihilape
Things that I think that need to be banned (won,t elaborate, just mention them):
1. Terastal.
2. Gholdengo.
3. Cyclizar.
4. Booster Energy. This one would have been a fine item if it was given to average Mons, I really like the concept of Stick, Light Ball, Thick Cub and even Megastones. Yet, it was given to the highest BST Mons of the Meta instead. At least Roar/Whirlwind are still a thing...
Annihilape: This does look broken with Terastal in mind, but further test is needed without it.
Chi Yu: Maybe its just me overpreparing for it, but I am not having big problems with the fish.
Chien Pao: Same here, top Tier threat for sure, but isn,t that much better than Weavile was.
1. Terastal.
2. Gholdengo.
3. Cyclizar.
4. Booster Energy. This one would have been a fine item if it was given to average Mons, I really like the concept of Stick, Light Ball, Thick Cub and even Megastones. Yet, it was given to the highest BST Mons of the Meta instead. At least Roar/Whirlwind are still a thing...
Annihilape: This does look broken with Terastal in mind, but further test is needed without it.
Chi Yu: Maybe its just me overpreparing for it, but I am not having big problems with the fish.
Chien Pao: Same here, top Tier threat for sure, but isn,t that much better than Weavile was.
I honestly have no problem with Gholdengo. I've been trying various teams with Talonflame, generally offensive sets that need Stealth Rocks to be clear, and I've had no trouble dealing with it. Even had a team with Corv as my Defog option. Corv gets hard countered by it, but the combination of U-Turn + a couple attackers that beat or threaten Gholdengo makes it not a problem. It's really not that hard to play around and I still don't see how it is ban worthy. People need to stop crying about it and learn to account for it in the team builder.
I have come to the opinion that Shed Tail is the problem, not Cyclizar. Whenever I run a team that has Breloom, I don't get any problems with Cyclizar or Orthworm. Orthworm is generally easier to deal with, but both really punish a decent amount of passive mons. Like if you switch into a check for an offensive threat and they U-turn or Double Switch whatever into one of those two, the sub pass is nearly impossible to prevent. Whenever I have a team without Breloom that somehow let's one of those things gets a sub off, it's very problematic if it's given to a set up sweeper like Roaring Moon or Espathra. Doesn't always mean a loss, but usually means multiple sacrifices to break the sub and then get damage. And it's really hard to prevent a good player from getting up a Shed Tail in the first place if you are anything but HO.
Espathra is weird. On one hand, I suspect priority is being very underutilized right now outside of a few like E-killer Dragonite. Outside of subs, I don't have a problem with its speed boosting on teams where I run enough priority. On the other hand, it's very scary behind a sub and the thought of pairing this thing with Psychic Terrain would invalidate that strategy. I've not yet seen Espathra on a team with Psychic Terrain, but I've seen plenty with Shed Tail and I definitely agree that at least the combination of the two is too much.
Roaring Moon is something I generally don't mind too much, with two exceptions. The first trying to guess which Tera type. Because it's so deadly with a single Dragon Dance, getting it wrong means you are sacrificing like half your team trying to get it under control or just straight up losing in a turn. The same effect happens with Shed Tail because the sub always let's it get the free set up and take multiple hits before dying. It just makes it so much harder to revenge kill. I really don't think Roaring Moon would be so problematic without those two factors.
Chi-Yu is scary under sun with Fire Tera, but honestly, I think you can play around it otherwise. It's a glass cannon and its fairly predictable what it is going to do. Even Azumarill can often switch into it multiple times without even having the Thick Fat ability or AV.
Chien-Pao, on the other hand, is problematic. It's nearly impossible to switch into unless you have Dondozo or a dedicated stall team. It's also nearly impossible to bank on out speeding it with +1 priority or stat boosting moves and abilities because of the insane 135 base speed. You also don't know if it's going to be Sucker Punch and/or Ice Shard, or not, so you basically have to assume you can't out speed it with anything. Weavile is far easier to deal with. A lot of things that could deal with Weavile just flat out lose to Chien-Pao, especially if you are trying to switch into it.
I have come to the opinion that Shed Tail is the problem, not Cyclizar. Whenever I run a team that has Breloom, I don't get any problems with Cyclizar or Orthworm. Orthworm is generally easier to deal with, but both really punish a decent amount of passive mons. Like if you switch into a check for an offensive threat and they U-turn or Double Switch whatever into one of those two, the sub pass is nearly impossible to prevent. Whenever I have a team without Breloom that somehow let's one of those things gets a sub off, it's very problematic if it's given to a set up sweeper like Roaring Moon or Espathra. Doesn't always mean a loss, but usually means multiple sacrifices to break the sub and then get damage. And it's really hard to prevent a good player from getting up a Shed Tail in the first place if you are anything but HO.
Espathra is weird. On one hand, I suspect priority is being very underutilized right now outside of a few like E-killer Dragonite. Outside of subs, I don't have a problem with its speed boosting on teams where I run enough priority. On the other hand, it's very scary behind a sub and the thought of pairing this thing with Psychic Terrain would invalidate that strategy. I've not yet seen Espathra on a team with Psychic Terrain, but I've seen plenty with Shed Tail and I definitely agree that at least the combination of the two is too much.
Roaring Moon is something I generally don't mind too much, with two exceptions. The first trying to guess which Tera type. Because it's so deadly with a single Dragon Dance, getting it wrong means you are sacrificing like half your team trying to get it under control or just straight up losing in a turn. The same effect happens with Shed Tail because the sub always let's it get the free set up and take multiple hits before dying. It just makes it so much harder to revenge kill. I really don't think Roaring Moon would be so problematic without those two factors.
Chi-Yu is scary under sun with Fire Tera, but honestly, I think you can play around it otherwise. It's a glass cannon and its fairly predictable what it is going to do. Even Azumarill can often switch into it multiple times without even having the Thick Fat ability or AV.
Chien-Pao, on the other hand, is problematic. It's nearly impossible to switch into unless you have Dondozo or a dedicated stall team. It's also nearly impossible to bank on out speeding it with +1 priority or stat boosting moves and abilities because of the insane 135 base speed. You also don't know if it's going to be Sucker Punch and/or Ice Shard, or not, so you basically have to assume you can't out speed it with anything. Weavile is far easier to deal with. A lot of things that could deal with Weavile just flat out lose to Chien-Pao, especially if you are trying to switch into it.
Last edited:
I have to commend GF for being able to out-frustrate me after all these years of repeated misses, key crits and lucky freezes/burns/paras thanks to Revival Blessing. Can't wait for that crap to be banned
I wanted to make a set for my favorite Pokemon of all-time, and astralydia helped me out.
Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 68 HP / 248 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Morning Sun
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunder Wave
the goal of this set is to deny glimmora/great tusk/garchomp hazards against a fat team allowing leftovers to be... playable
this set outspeeds even max speed chomp and while it wont win the 1v1 if it has attack invest, you can weaken it and make it very hard to come in
garchomp is the worst case scenario but thankfully it's not as big a deal as glimmora, which it pretty much dominates
psychic has a very good roll against great tusk unless it is invested mostly into spdef
0 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 404-476 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
if you want a guaranteed OHKO against tusk, you can decrease the bulk and get that with:
88 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
glimmora's only potential problem for espeon is getting a poison off via the spin move, but as long as espeon isn't necessary to counter other pokemon on that team.you'll be completely fine
some other things espeon can do:
obviously, it can revenge breloom, locked or not. also obviously, it can't really jump in the way of grass attacks, or you will be down a pokemon
it is able to revenge kill annihilape if it has 30% of damage, but it's only really a check
it will 2HKO at 0 invest even a 252/252 HP+SPDEF Annihilape but you shouldn't be counting on it for that
clodsire, non-quark speed iron valiant, there's a general lack of fast Psychics in the tier and Espeon can be a soft check to a lot of these Pokemon, but this set is moreso to help protect fat teams
is it that good?
not exactly, but I think it's an interesting choice to consider on fat. I also might experiment with espeon as a Bad Tapu Lele in this limited meta, but with so many dark types that's a tough challenge
maybe in a lower tier
oh also, twave is filler, you can go a more offensive option or a bunch of things. i considered yawn to be annoying but meh
Espeon @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 68 HP / 248 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Morning Sun
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunder Wave
the goal of this set is to deny glimmora/great tusk/garchomp hazards against a fat team allowing leftovers to be... playable
this set outspeeds even max speed chomp and while it wont win the 1v1 if it has attack invest, you can weaken it and make it very hard to come in
garchomp is the worst case scenario but thankfully it's not as big a deal as glimmora, which it pretty much dominates
psychic has a very good roll against great tusk unless it is invested mostly into spdef
0 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 404-476 (93 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
if you want a guaranteed OHKO against tusk, you can decrease the bulk and get that with:
88 SpA Espeon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Great Tusk: 434-512 (100 - 117.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
glimmora's only potential problem for espeon is getting a poison off via the spin move, but as long as espeon isn't necessary to counter other pokemon on that team.you'll be completely fine
some other things espeon can do:
obviously, it can revenge breloom, locked or not. also obviously, it can't really jump in the way of grass attacks, or you will be down a pokemon
it is able to revenge kill annihilape if it has 30% of damage, but it's only really a check
it will 2HKO at 0 invest even a 252/252 HP+SPDEF Annihilape but you shouldn't be counting on it for that
clodsire, non-quark speed iron valiant, there's a general lack of fast Psychics in the tier and Espeon can be a soft check to a lot of these Pokemon, but this set is moreso to help protect fat teams
is it that good?
not exactly, but I think it's an interesting choice to consider on fat. I also might experiment with espeon as a Bad Tapu Lele in this limited meta, but with so many dark types that's a tough challenge
maybe in a lower tier
oh also, twave is filler, you can go a more offensive option or a bunch of things. i considered yawn to be annoying but meh
Its more valuable due to less distribution, because items have more chance to stay, sure, you know can run away from the few selection of mons, but somebody has to take the hit, and you better belive that Air Baloon gholdengo you have doesnt want, nor the rocky helmet corv so that meme mouse can sweep, nor lefties since recover got nerfed, it also helps that the mons that do have knock off, also have a ton of utility besides that
Yeah in case anyone was wondering the team improved significantly once I switched from Laminar Crash to Speed Boost lol
Question for the forum: do you prefer tera fighting or tera fairy?
Depends. Tera fighting is overall more useful for the steels, but with fairy you can run Dgleam over being forced to run Tblast, which is useless until you tera. If you run Tera fighting and you waste your tera on another mon, you effectively have an 80bp normal move which does nothing.
The thing is, i'd agree cause it would be the most reasonable thing to do, but you'd have to think of the implication and consequences when it comes to keeping that thing in the meta. Actually it's not Cyclizar but clearly Shed Tail but let's say Cyclizar for now.
I don't think it's too unreasonable at all, take it that it enables SO MANY offensive threats despite the fact that we're in pre-home meta. The archetype isn't dying off anytime soon when it got reliable support such as gholdengo and screens to enact any of those strats... Sure, you could ban Ape and Espathra, but then Volc, Roaring Moon, Dragonite or Chien-Pao take their place (though they're already present lol), or even literally any good setup mon. Do we ban those too? Then Home comes around and we eventually get double dance Lando behind screens/sub, Urshifu, Blaziken or anything else really. The options are limitless. I may be wrong but I can easily see it being a trend, in which case the problematic variable would definitely be Shed Tail. Gen 9 OU isn't fun to me atm which is fine, but i think we can all agree that this metagame is a bit too chaotic and action needs to be enacted in the near future.
Whenever i see Gholdengo i just think of it as the modern gen 6 Deoxys, granted i don't exactly remember every reason why it was broken but i remember hazard stacking and deosharp, I could possibly see it coming but i could hardly deal with it and atm we're probably scratching the surface of the amplitude of sets Golden Boy could run in the future to even cripple it's counters like Gen 8 Magearna did with Specs trick for example.
Stupid bike dragon i hate it
Last edited:
How do you imagine Charizard would do in this meta? Terastallization gives it yet another way to get around its SR weakness (and its default Tera Type of Dragon gives it a great STAB combination), and I imagine it may have good synergy with some of the Ancient Paradox mons on sun teams. Granted, if Tera is banned then it'll head straight to the lower tiers again.
In this case, Gholdengo is the Bisharp and Glim is DeoD. Though I think its a bit more justifiable to have these Pokemon here than in Gen 6 because of Knock Off having 2nd least amount of Pokemon, and HDB. Currently there is only Cyclizar, Great Tusk, Iron Threads, and Iron Valiant as good Pokemon with Knock Off, so I think it’s fair to have something that lets you keep up hazards.
- Status