Resource SV PU Viability Rankings - Pre DLC 1 Edition

[rien]

adapted from the swsh pu viability rankings thread

art by IoSonoNeon​

Most of you know the drill by now, but if you don't: viability rankings are a method of sorting Pokemon in a given tier based on how good they are in said tier. S rank is reserved for the defining Pokemon of the tier, while C rank is the place for near unviable Pokemon that have almost no worthwhile use in the metagame. As the metagame changes, the rankings are periodically updated by players who are well-versed in the tier. Note that ranks are done alphabetically and not by viability.

Do not post one-liners in this thread. Unless it is an exceptional sentence that is able to justify or explain something in a few words, one-liners rarely contribute anything of value to a thread. If nominating an unranked Pokemon to be ranked, it is highly recommended that you get feedback from the PU room and/or Discord beforehand to make sure there is a concrete reason that said Pokemon deserves to be ranked, and make sure to include replays. Opinions contribute very little to the discussion if they do not have something to back them up, nor do posts that look at a single point and ignore everything else that has been said. When arguing for a Pokemon's ranking, account for opposition, and do not attempt to ignore the drawbacks of a Pokemon either.

For this thread, remember this: it is not on the community to do the research and debating for your proposed change. If you want something to rise, drop, or be added, please do the work to gather the evidence. If you made a nomination that didn't go through, it didn't get ignored - feel free to ask for reasonings by messaging a mod, or asking in the SQSA or PU Discord chat (but please do not ask in this thread). Also, contact a mod if you find a small error (Pokemon inadvertently omitted from the list, etc.) rather than posting in the thread about it.

PU does not use rank descriptions like some other tiers do. Each Pokemon in a rank should just be seen as above or under Pokemon in other ranks rather than needing to fit a certain set of criteria.

The VR council currently consists of:
asa
Aurist
DugZa
fish anemometer
gum
ishtar
rien
Shaneghoul
Vulpix03

S Rank
S

Persian-Alola

A Rank
A+

Charizard

Gurdurr

Haunter

Pyroar

Rotom-Frost

Skuntank

Whiscash

A

Dugtrio-Alola

Gligar

Leafeon

Misdreavus

Perrserker

Piloswine

Swalot

A-

Crabominable

Dachsbun

Electrode

Gabite

Gogoat

Golduck

Klawf

Komala

Masquerain

Raichu-Alola

Spiritomb

Wyrdeer

B Rank
B+

Avalugg-Hisui

Cacturne

Carbink

Chansey

Dugtrio

Indeedee-F

Lycanroc-Midnight

Sneasel

Thwackey

Tinkatuff

Raichu

B

Clefairy

Flapple

Glaceon

Honchkrow

Houndoom

Rabsca

Sawsbuck

Sliggoo-Hisui

Veluza

Zangoose

B-

Camerupt

Falinks

Mareanie

Quaxwell

Rotom-Fan

Scovillain

Squawkabilly

Vigoroth

C Rank

Ampharos

Beartic

Dartrix

Dunsparce

Fraxure

Glimmet

Hakamo-o

Lumineon

Monferno

Murkrow

Pincurchin

Spidops

Vullaby

Wugtrio

 

[rien]

changelog

17/04/23 - initial vr
01/05/23 - NU > NEW; A+ > NU; A- > NU
07/05/23 - vr update
15/05/23 - NEW > B+
01/06/23 - HOME > NEW; NU > NEW
05/06/23 - NEW > PUBL; (red) A+ > unlisted
11/06/23 - vr update
01/07/23 - OU > NEW; NU > NEW; A+ > NU; A > NU; B- > NU
14/07/23 - vr update
16/07/23 - S > PUBL
17/07/23 - S > PUBL
22/07/23 - S- > S; A+ > S-
01/08/23 - NU > NEW; A+ > NU
14/08/23 - vr update
02/09/23 - NU > NEW
18/09/23 - A+ > PUBL; NEW > PUBL
27/09/23 - vr update

 

[Haffling]

Going from the top

A-

From what I've been told this was the most "controversial" vote in the vr being split between A- and A+(one vote for A) and whilst I don't think Dugtrio is bad by any means, however I believe it should be in A- as it struggles to get in and do meaningful unboosted damage to common phys walls such as Quax, Missy, and Gabite(tera ice moment) Of course one could argue that these are easy to wear down with hazards but the same can be said about non-boots Dugtrio(boots duggy actually does 0 unboosted) the standard lo Dugtrio is quite easy to wear down, and while priority may not be the biggest problem for Dugtrio as it has sucker punch for slower priority users such as Squawkabillty, Raboot(hdb/cb), and Flapple it still struggles vs prio users like rocky helmet Skuntank and Dragonair (Persian xd) and healthy scarf users won't mind an unboosted sucker punch(most healthy scarf users dont mind +2 either) not to mention one of the more common scarf users Indeedee isnt even effected by sucker punch.

B+/B

A- is a bit too high with how weak Vespiquen is to Rock-types pre-tera esp with how common rock coverage is on most mons. As everyone knows Vespiquens typing is awful, most Pokemon have some form of super-effective coverage for it. It's also slow, slow u-turns are good but it really works against it at times i.e it's not able to use roost as a def move(not that pure bug gonna help vs fire or rock) B or B+ seems right for now. Having toxic does alot for it as it forces out defensive mons.

B-

B- choosing between boots and evio is never fun for nfes, I can understand somewhat why it was put into B as it is one of our only knock off users and defog user, and with how prevalent spike stack is a defogger is nice, however losing to every setter and taking 25% aint it(not to mention that it loses to p much all A+/S mons) and also sharing p much all Vespiquens weaknesses. Its 4th move is also kinda meh as you have to choose between bb and night shade(giga drain is ok~ish) but overall it has alot of the same problems Vespiquen has but no u-turn or toxic.

B-/C

Not sold on this as it's quite slow and tera reliant, I much prefer the defensive cm set to the trailblaze one as the defensive one has wish utility. Being weak to both Rock- and Fire-types really aint it in PU, specs sets and scarf sets are of course a thing as well. Tinkatuff and Crabominable are really the main reason Im so low on it(perr to an extent as well) B-/C

B-

Put this in B-, at best this is gonna get up spikes and rocks (or 2 spikes), and if for some reason your opponent doesn't have Skuntank tspikes might do something or as many like to do put up one hazard and save it as a sack(it might get up tspike as I sack it!)/tspike absorber which I don't find all that useful, because 85% of the time me and my opponents have 4 boots users and Missy(it has its times of course, it is thought one of the few hazards setters that loses to hatt). I know people gonna think im wilding with this take.

Other than these I'm very happy with this VR

 

[UberSkitty]

Am I crazy or are the standard for this VR kinda high? ik the meta is kinda stale rn, with mostly the mons in the A and S ranks being used, but overall I think a lotta the mid- and lower-ranked mons should be risen a little. These are the big ones that stick out to me.
B -> B+
It's a really good utility mon, especially with how versatile its options are between TWave, Taunt, Encore, Whirlwind. There's also NP sets for a fun time. Both a decent offensive and defensive presence overall.
B -> B+
A great SpDef wall and isn't too hard to get a setup opportunity with. While Viv being banned lessened the use of Vital Spirit, Lilligant is still around. Honestly I could see this mon in A- if it weren't for Missy, but it's def still above average, aka better than B.
B- -> B
Well, Magic Bounce. While it doesn't have the best matchups against hazard setters, its presence alone creates mind games and hesitation for the opp to set up hazards. Also Healing Wish and Nuzzle are nice.
C -> B-
While on its own it's pretty mediocre, Carkol can make for a decent glue mon when building with that sexy hazard control between Spikes, SR, and Rapid Spin.
C -> B-
Its utility movepool alongside that Speed makes it a bitch to deal with. Just put something to sleep and U-turn out. Set up some Leech Seed and stall with Strength Sap. Use SD with Tera Flying for that stronk Acrobatics.

I also feel like various mons were unjustifiably left UR (not to say they're great ofc). I was told I should get replays for them, so maybe will, maybe wont.
UR -> B-
Lost Triple Axel and Knock, but it still has a decent offensive presence with that speed. While having virtually no good Dark STAB, Icicle Crash is still a fine option, especially alongside its other moves like Ice Shard and Swords Dance. It was also used as a lead in that popular Dark Meat team, further establishing its viability. Or be like me and use Room Service Fling.

UR -> B-
I feel like most users think of the Guts set when seeing Flareon, its better set is as a SpDef wall. Can hard switch into stuff like Pyroar and Houndoom while being able to spread status with Lava Plume and Body Slam while being one of very few mons with Wish.
UR -> C
AV is a decent set, having decent bulk and coverage while being able to para everything with Body Slam.
UR -> C
Council is going to reject this nom but Fletch is good I swear and I even made a post about it here!

These are some other mons that I figured I'd bring up for C, since all of them have been used a decent amount with notable niches. But I don't feel as strongly about them so I won't go into detail.

dw, I also have opinions on some of the more relevant mons too!
A- -> A
This mon has def "fallen off the bandwagon" lately with Misdreavus everywhere and people just giving up on hazard removal. However, it remains a staple on many teams and is the main reason Misdreavus started being used over Haunter on hazard stack teams. While not the most threatening mon, its presence has a huge influence on the metagame which I do believe should be taken into account. Also there's whole "by far best hazard removal" thing.
A- -> A
Stop sleeping on this mon (unless it used sleep powder), cuz it's an amazing sweeper. While maybe not as reliable/consistent as its former QD buddies, it isn't enough to stop Lilli from being a large offensive threat. One thing it does carry on though is feeling the need to run faster scarfers, which impacts the reliability of ~85 base speed scarfers like Fantom, Indeedee, and Golduck as speed control.

 

[rien]

big thanks to everyone who shared their noms so far, i'm interested in seeing way more of these so please don't keep your thoughts to yourself. overall i'm very pleased with the current state of the vr, but here are some of my own noms:

B+ > A-/A
actually one of our best wallbreakers in the metagame with both band and specs sets being extremely good, and scarf is a very formidable revenge killer/cleaner (even if you go with ripen over hustle for accuracy). provides momentum for days during early game with u-turn. obviously not bulky but the 4x water resistance is extremely nice for taking advantage of choice-locked basc. really cool mon that i find increasingly hard to justify not using on a lot of my teams.

B- > B
i think darkload is still largely underused and underutilized, offensive sets may be a bit of a dud but resttalk just stands out as an eternal spinblocker that provides not only reliable spinblocking and phazing for hazard stacking teams but also a very reliable answer to the increasingly threatening np raichu. cursed body is busted on every mon that gets it but you don't need me to tell you that.

C > B-
i think the negative perception of ston comes from people mostly seeing/using purely offensive sets like choice scarf, which yeah are very much inferior to lycanroc. however, its real viability comes from its gargantuan defense stat, iron defense, and a defensive typing that is generally poor but helps a lot against normal-types like squawk. iron defense-boosted body press is plain silly and it can even comfortably take on stuff like basculin after two boosts, or end up sweeping with rock polish.

B > B-
a bit of a shitmon to be frank, it's just not powerful or bulky enough or has a wide enough moveset to reliably clean opposing teams, and finding setup opportunities is a chore due not only to its poor bulk but also how common encore is nowadays. choiced sets have never impressed me either, banded first impression is fun but it really dislikes being locked into any of its moves and it's almost completely useless against common ghosts like missy outside of tera.

B- > C
i'm sorry but this is truly a digimon, yeah sure being able to switch in on both of doom's stabs is nice but it's otherwise really just sad and miserable, i absolutely don't get the hype. the fact that its dragon tail is forever doomed to have 72% accuracy just makes me never want to use it, i really view it as a high-risk low-reward pokemon that is unfortunately useless outside of zwei vs. doom matchups.

B- > C
not a nom i feel very strongly about, while its presence does alter the way you play and makes you more careful in setting hazards (as UberSkitty said in their nom above), it just really suffers from poor matchup against the majority of viable hazard setters and ends up doing almost nothing in a game. physdef sets are somewhat underwhelming, spdef sets were one of the better viv checks with nuzzle and mystical fire but it tends to get overwhelmed by masq and lilli (which sometimes use bug buzz and pollen puff respectively).

there's also a currently unranked mon which i think might be worth putting in c but i'm still not entirely sold on it, might or might not update this post later

other noms i tend to agree with (might end up agreeing with more as we get closer to the first update): B > B-, UR > C (definitely an overlook of the first slate but B- might be a reach)

 

[Aurist]

B > B-
a bit of a shitmon to be frank, it's just not powerful or bulky enough or has a wide enough moveset to reliably clean opposing teams, and finding setup opportunities is a chore due not only to its poor bulk but also how common encore is nowadays. choiced sets have never impressed me either, banded first impression is fun but it really dislikes being locked into any of its moves and it's almost completely useless against common ghosts like missy outside of tera.

Falinks is definitely clunky but I'm finding as sticky web becomes more common this thing continues to justify its place in the meta as pretty much the only thing that actively punishes it. It is overly tera reliant but I do think it is quite rewarding to tera. I personally think it's fine where it is and has a shot at improving over time too.

 

[eeriespell]

Falinks is definitely clunky but I'm finding as sticky web becomes more common this thing continues to justify its place in the meta as pretty much the only thing that actively punishes it. It is overly tera reliant but I do think it is quite rewarding to tera. I personally think it's fine where it is and has a shot at improving over time too.

Even as a pretty big Falinks hater overall I'm inclined to agree with this. Not opposed to dropping it to B-, but I do think that it is worth considering how good the ability to punish webs really is right now seeing as it's absurdly strong as a playstyle. The speed drop really hurts but at the very least coming in and immediately being +2 does force some kind of response which is great for disrupting the pacing of the game.

 

[asa]

Only gonna be talking about some of the above nominations :)


For now, I think Vespiquen should stay in A-. The issues Haffling brought up are of course valid (and part of why I'm not too big on this mon myself), but I think it has enough going for it right now to justify its ranking. Vespiquen is probably one of the best and most flexible defensive Terastallizers in the tier, which is huge for the types of teams it usually fits on. Tera Ghost is still good for the spinblocking, but with less Quaxwell around, it feels like you can comfortably use other Tera types (Dragon, Steel, and Poison come to mind) to patch up bad weaknesses without wasting another teamslot or losing out on Vespiquen's amazing role compression. Even if you don't Terastallize with Vespiquen, which is fair, you're still incredibly annoying to take down and only really get blanked by Steel-types, all of which are grounded and usually don't outlast you due to your own Spikes. I could definitely see Vespiquen falling off over time, but I don't quite think we're there yet.


I think these two should switch places, or at the very least be ranked the same (don't really mind if that means Zweilous drops instead of Sliggoo rising). Other than the Houndoom and (sometimes) Indeedee matchups, Zweilous's typing never really feels much more useful than Sliggoo's; if anything, I'd argue Sliggoo is an overall better special wall right now due to having higher special bulk without being weak to Bug or 4x weak to Fairy. Zweilous's maxed out Special Defense is the same as non-invested Sliggoo, so you could even invest some in Defense to check stuff like Basculin in a pinch without losing out on much of anything, which cannot be said for Zweilous. Hustle also makes Zweilous feel way too unreliable at times, which is really not what I want out of my wall or phazer right now. Sap Sipper on Sliggoo is also nice, if situational without Vivillon around, since it + Tera Fairy lets you wall a lot of Flapple sets, and it also helps you pivot around Gogoat and other random Grass-types.


Not ranking this was definitely an oversight, oops. Naturally outspeeding pretty much every offensive threat besides Dugtrio and Electrode is big, packing Ice Shard to revenge kill threats like Squawkabilly, Flapple, and Dugtrio (while resisting Sucker Punch from the latter two) is big, and turning a lot of common Pokemon into potential offense is big. Quaxwell and Crabominable aren't quite as common as they used to be, which is also very nice for Sneasel and gives you more room to run different coverage options without a lot of risk. I don't know exactly where I'd rank this, but somewhere like B- might be fine.


I agree with raising this to A-, incredibly cheap Pokemon (dishonest, even). I find myself running a lot of Tera Fairy/Steel on my teams in part due to how hard stopping Flapple can be otherwise, and even then, there's not much to keep it from pivoting out with U-turn. This is probably one of the Pokemon that most appreciates how good Spikes stacking is, since most of its defensive counterplay is grounded and can't really afford to run Heavy-Duty Boots. Choice Scarf in particular is really good at revenge killing, while Choice Specs feels incredibly underprepared for unless you have Tinkatuff specifically. Not to theorymon too hard or anything, but I also think setup sets have a lot of room for development, too, and can basically win games on the spot if you can't defensively Tera/don't have the right defensive Tera type.

 

[Aurist]

Alright I promised to post on the day a few days ago and here I am... thanks ADHD. Anyway I'd like to respond to some of the nominations I agree with and make a couple nominations of my own. I'll start with the former.


[Vespiquen] down to B+: I too feel this is a little high as Vespiquen is quite easily pressured, its main benefit is Spikes into slow pivot which is useful especially as it makes it not as much of a momentum loss against set up mons, but its bulk doesn't tend to lead to more layers than other spikers and its speed is otherwise pretty hampering as even most defensive mons are competing in speed tiers above it. Teraing, especially Ghost actually makes this really good but Tera is incredibly taxed right now with so much wanting to use it. I just wouldn't usually pick this as a spiker over several others right now.


[Dartrix] down to B-: This mon is lucky to guarantee hazard removal before it dies because that's literally all it does in an average game. This thing is destined for Carkol tier but it's justifiable enough for now.


[Flapple] up to A- (or A): Over the course of PU we've been slowly realising that Flapple does a lot of different sets and does them well, rather than the monotonous CB hustle user it was seeming to be. Band, Specs, Scarf and DD are all proving strong sets and although they're usually answered by similar things, you almost always have to keep your Perrserker/whatever very healthy in a game or you're just gonna lose. Big threat, switches in to a decent amount, u-turns on checks. It's really good.


[Stonjourner] up to B-: Ston keeps a lot of physical threats in check by existing, gets up SR and can threaten with ID/BP. Definitely always being considered when building, it's better than it is on paper for sure.


[Sneasel] rank it somewhere for sure but needs more testing, unclear on where its damage rolls end up right now.

as for noms I'd like to make...


[Pincurchin] down to C: Magneton being gone just makes this thing totally out-competed for the spiker slot. It's still viable to patch up a team's weakness to Raichu/Rotom-Fan but that's the only real niche it has I feel.


[Shroodle] UR->C: Viable suicide utility for Rain which is enough for a rank imo as full Rain is quite threatening. Generally achieves more for rain teams than Electrode.

That's what I have for now, this VR is pretty clean even after some meta shifts affecting it. I have some developing thoughts on and in particular that I'd like to test out more as I think they may have a bigger role to play in the tier than they are currently.

 

[j0gurt]

A -> A+
Ground/Dragon resists a lot right now. Fire moves from Pyroar and Houndoom, Stone Edge from Lycanroc, Poison moves from Skuntank, etc., alongside its pivotal Electric immunity. While Gabite is not going to check these Pokemon forever outside of RestTalk sets, it makes playing around them a lot easier and can threaten them out as well. Gabite's Eviolite boosted bulk allows it to switch in against a lot of weaker neutral hits as well. This, along with its access to Stealth Rock, provides Gabite with a lot of role compression, leaving it very splashable as a result. It gets a lot of opportunities to switch in, allowing it to get Rocks or a Swords Dance up pretty consistently. Gabite’s set diversity is another top-tier trait it possesses, with the Swords Dance set alone having a multitude of offensive and defensive EV spreads to suit different needs. The Tera type used can be a lot of options as well, whether it be Dragon to boost your secondary STAB, Steel or Fairy to flip your type matchups and potentially find a setup opportunity, or even Fire to help against Misdreavus who is otherwise a bit obnoxious for Gabite. These Swords Dance sets are really difficult not to lose a mon to thanks to Gabite’s coverage and is one of the main reasons you need to account for it in the builder.

C -> UR
I don’t think this needs much explaining. Between being entirely outclassed by Basculin as an offensive Water type and the increase in teams that handle Water types well due to Basculin, this Pokemon lacks any niche in the tier. Even its speed tier is shared by Dugtrio.

 

[Gross Sweep]

I would like to join the echo chamber, and suggest a rise for Flapple. It's most splashable set right now is probably scarf. Fast U-turn is always good, and Tera Dragon Scarf Outrage feels free in a lot of end games as the tier lacks fairy types and Steel types with any sort of recovery outside of Lefties. I've yet to load up a game with this thing where I think it wont be important or strong vs my opponent, which in my experience means it's in a really solid place.

Honestly don't know how I'd feel about a Vespiquen drop. Dissimilarly to Flapple I have looked at plenty of team previews lately and thought Vespiquen isn't great here, and yet it always manages to do something. It's a weird conundrum where it looks bad on paper / preview, then without fail it seems to get up a Spike or two, Toxic a mon, switch in at least 2-3 times (which feels decent in a meta that I feel is leaning offensive), and provide some momentum with a slow U-turn or two mixed in. Essentially this mon always seems to help make progress in games I've played / watched, but whether or not that's good enough to be in A- rank is a tough question. It is definitely missing an X-factor that makes it have a standout effect on games, but I don't want it to get looked past too much for showing up and namelessly doing it's job on a consistent basis.

Gabite is on most of the teams I've enjoyed using in this tier to be completely honest, but it's another change I'm a little unsure on. j0gurt went into great detail on all the things Gabite does really really well, however, it still feels lacking in some way when I use it. This might not make the most sense but I view this mon very similarly to Perrserker, in terms of what they provide for a team. Being bulky pivots with utility and some power. I apologize that my description is a little unacademic, but it's all I got. That said when looking at this role I think Gabite and Perrserker are the best at fulfilling it outside of bulky Skunktank, if you want to clump it in with those two. Having said that, is being the best at something worth a rise? In a tier where the A+ mons are all strong breakers it's hard to say whether a strong pivot with some exploitable weaknesses (Spikes / no recovery method / and I at least find its lack of U-turn annoying and a tad restricting) on the same level as mons like Pyroar and Basculin. Don't get me wrong I think Gabite is very good in this meta, but it never truly feels dominate. Some of that is probably just due to a difference of roles as well. I wouldn't be mad if Gabite rose, but I also don't think it's a slam dunk either and I honestly don't know if it belongs above Perrserker.

Sorry if some of this is babble. It's my first time making a post like this in a fairly long time. I've really been enjoying PU as of late, and am excited to be making more posts like this in the near future!

 

[rien]

quick update, council will be voting on the first vr slate of the gen (incl. the new drops) this monday (may 8th). make sure to get any remaining noms in beforehand!

e: gonna take advantage of this post and make a couple more quick noms:

A- > A
super good mon rn, psychic terrain is really really good in the current meta where priority is getting increasingly common. scarf is an excellent speed control mon with great utility in trick+hwish, specs is an excellent breaker that also makes great use of said utility, and like pyroar always getting stab bonus on tera blast is super useful.

A+ > A
still a really good sweeper/wallbreaker, it just feels slightly worse than pyroar and maybe on par with charizard if not slightly worse than it too. while dachsbun's presence isn't crippling as doom can get around it with tera poison, it gives doom less liberty to use sucker punch or trailblaze, which ultimately makes doom's job at sweeping just a tiny bit more difficult.

 

[Theblobfishman9]

C -> B
[Lumineon]
Butterfly Fish is in my opinon is quite easily the best rain setter in the tier. While it is slower then electrode it has better bulk, defensive typing, and access to uturn. Electrode does get access to volt switch but that can be blocked by switching in a ground type, additonally 2 common leads so far have been dug and gabite which prevent it from switching causing it to run explosion to avoid wasting rain turns. Butterfly fish on the other hand has the bulk to set up rain dance, take a hit, and then uturn out so that it can set up rain dance once again. Butterfly fish can also run both swift swim to abuse the rain with golduck/bear/striped fish or it can use water absorb any water attacks from opposing swift swimmers and striped fish. Water absorb Lumi can also be used to act as a deterrent for basculin( I think the 3rd best mon in the tier right now) to not wave crash your whole team which is even more helpful now that NU stole the cactus. Also it gets encore which makes it 56 times more annoying to deal with.


[Electrode]
B- -> C
Electrode as stated in my Lumi rant, is in my opinion outclassed by the butterfly fish. Even as a second rain setter in gets outclassed by raichu which is still faster then most mons in the teir, because it can deter ele moves with volt absorb and be useful offensively itself. Additonally It gets outclassed outside of rain again by raichu as both a pivoting mon and as spAtk ele type.


[Dachsbun]
UR -> B+/A-
Dough dog just existing makes np doom not very viable, and tera steel dough dog makes the best doom check in the tier which in itself justifies usage. It also is generally a solid mon to use in the tier due to its defensive bulk and typing which gives it the ability to switch into outrage from apple dragon/gabite/drak and stall out other physical attackers.

 

[eeriespell]

UR > A-

Yeah, no, this thing is excellent. Being able to just bulwark through Darks and entirely blank the large number of dangerous Dragon and Fire threats in the tier is huge. Single-handedly putting a stopper on NP Doom, physical Charizard and Flapple sets, Honchkrow, etc etc etc is nothing short of great. It has about two problems (admittedly meaningful ones, it has a shit HP stat that prevents it from effectively Wish passing and a little 4MSS) that just do not really outweigh the positives at all.


UR > A

Faster than Doom, as strong as Pyroar, and with better coverage than the former and a better STAB combo than the latter. Losing Roost did suck but I think people really did overblow how bad it was gonna be. There's the surprise factor as well, DD and BD sets do exist and they will whoop your ass if you aren't prepared for them. Having to run boots isn't a big deal in this meta because removal is so shit that boots is kinda mandatory on pretty much everything. Good Tera abuser too.


UR > D

Straight to blacklist. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200. Worse Spiker than Vespiquen, worse TSpiker than Glimmet and Skuntank, worse Webber than Masquerain and even Kricketune, and a worse First Impression user than Fraxure and Falinks. It's just so, so bad.

 

[eeriespell]

C -> B
[Lumineon]
Butterfly Fish is in my opinon is quite easily the best rain setter in the tier. While it is slower then electrode it has better bulk, defensive typing, and access to uturn. Electrode does get access to volt switch but that can be blocked by switching in a ground type, additonally 2 common leads so far have been dug and gabite which prevent it from switching causing it to run explosion to avoid wasting rain turns. Butterfly fish on the other hand has the bulk to set up rain dance, take a hit, and then uturn out so that it can set up rain dance once again. Butterfly fish can also run both swift swim to abuse the rain with golduck/bear/striped fish or it can use water absorb any water attacks from opposing swift swimmers and striped fish. Water absorb Lumi can also be used to act as a deterrent for basculin( I think the 3rd best mon in the tier right now) to not wave crash your whole team which is even more helpful now that NU stole the cactus. Also it gets encore which makes it 56 times more annoying to deal with.

I think it's also worth adding to this that Lumineon has some good matchups against common leads that you mentioned as well as partnering well with things that are already good on their own. The threat of Ice Beam makes Gabite leads a complete momentum sink and most other things can just be U-Turned on. Snuffing Basculin is, as you said, excellent, but pairing Lumineon with a Ground or Raichu can force opposing Electrics to grind to a halt, especially opposing Raichu. Raichu also appreciates Lumineon setting up rain for it anyways, giving it extra power on Surf and the option of running Thunder. I also find that it forms a very solid pivot core with Vespiquen that is an absolute nightmare to break through since Lumineon's matchup against most special breakers in the tier, particularly the ones that threaten Vespiquen most, is pretty good. Great nom, I'd even argue as far as B+.

 

[Thundercalf101]

C -> UR
I don’t think this needs much explaining. Between being entirely outclassed by Basculin as an offensive Water type and the increase in teams that handle Water types well due to Basculin, this Pokemon lacks any niche in the tier. Even its speed tier is shared by Dugtrio.

This hurts as the #1 Wugtrio Fan and the only person who uses Wug in the tier.
I've personally been able to use it to good results

 

[Morge]

, worse Webber than Masquerain and even Kricketune,

I really wanna hear your reasoning for spidops being a worse webber than kricketune because like, what
Edit: I feel like I should clarify that I don't really think spidops is that good but its a hell of a lot better than kricketune


UR -> A
In spite of the nerfs charizard is still great, comparable to houndoom and pyroar, although I don't feel confident enough yet putting it on the same level as them. Great speed and special attack alongside great coverage. 4x rocks weakness means very little when half of the tier is running boots anyway, just gotta play around knock off users a bit more carefully. The added flexibility from physical sets is just the cherry on top, I haven't played around with them much myself but they seem very viable options.


UR -> A-
I expected this to be broken but it doesn't really feel like it, the loss of basically all its physical coverage really sucks. Still pretty good though, stab 125 attack sucker punch is very scary and with moxie it can be a threatening revenge killer or cleaner. 71 speed is a bit slow however, and if it wants to run scarf it has to contend with the rocks weakness limiting how often it can come in. Lack of coverage also really sucks, flying resists can often easily play around sucker punch, or something bulky like perserker can just often take the sucker punch. Tinkatuff also just walls it completely.

 

[third bonnie]

i'm not really that experienced, not as good as some of the folks writing here, but I hope some of these are going to convince someone that the mons are better/worse than the VR suggest, now that there's a couple of new mons and changes

first of all, the new mons (that i had used):


UR -> A/A+
I'm not exactly sure which tier it would fit better in, hence the slash. On one hand, mon is either eternally tied to HDB or teams in which your side of the fields never has hazards and it's weak to some of the most important types in electric and water. On the other, wow it's diverse. Specs, Scarf, DD, Band...? Belly Drum set if you're a big fan of living on the edge. It's really hard to read it well. You switch in something like Glimmet only to get nuked by Earthquake, for instance. Or switch to see a DD. I'm talking primarily about physical variant as it's the new thing its presence provides. Prior to the shifts we didn't have a reliable physical fire breaker/sweeper, closest thing being Raboot and that boy... uh, bunny... needed Eviolite, HDB and Band all at the same time. Technically Camerupt is here, but it's really slow to a fault.


UR -> A-
Thing's a nuke with wings. Plenty of sets (mixed, physical, even special) to work with, absolutely massive attacking stats to back them up. However, there's some more pronounced issues than there were with charizard, namely the speed tier and item choice. With Life Orb i don't think you can afford to run its strongest physical flying stab and have to rely on much less accurate Hurricane (nor do you have recovery, why can't this bird Roost?), Scarf falls behind other Scarf users (and as a bonus, if your nature isn't +Spe you're outsped by Dugtrio) that can revenge kill it or abuse the move it's locked onto and Band means you should consider running Sucker Punch which... isn't really ideal to have on a Banded mon. There's also a nasty SR weakness. I think it's still a really good mon, but it requires much more careful switch-ins than other things, to not wear it down too fast and have it die on the spot.


UR -> C/B-
I think it has some genuinely good niches for it to be lower. Not the best HP, but adequate defenses mean you could use AV set with Leech Life, it's got enough okay moves to make it work. Besides that, slow speed tier means save switch-in with U-turn, access to sticky web is always a nice bonus. It's absolutely nowhere near as good as Masquerain, but it's got enough going for it to place it at the bottom of VR.

Now for some of the existing stuff that IMO changes after the shifts:


A -> A+
Not only did it just gain two new mons to prey on in the form of two aforementioned part-Flying types, it lost something that walled it (aside from the pretty unreliable Focus Blast) in Cacturne and something that outsped it with scarf in Haunter. All that on top of already being great with its speed tier, pivoting, access to Nasty Plot, good coverage and the like. There's absolutely no bias because i'm a gigantic Raichu fan. None at all.


B+ -> A-
Similarly, Sawsbuck gained a lot with the shifts. No more being Sucker Punched by Cacturne, no more ineffective damage dealt to Haunter. Both Charizard and Honchkrow are threatening of course, but they aren't impossible to deal with by our deer friend, let alone its teammates. You can even afford using banded variant and swap headbutt for an additional coverage move, allowing you to use Sap Sipper if you so desire to surprise Gogoat who thinks it's save for it to switch in on it. It's actually excellent at surprising Gogoat, because it has access to Megahorn.


C -> B-/B
The drops really help justify Carkol's spot in teams now, to some extent. Its typing is still not really good and the only good way to circumvent it is with Tera, but it can now wall Charizard's stabs (and take one Focus Blast) while, surprisingly enough, almost OHKOing it with Power Gem (25% chance to do so). Of course DD variant is still problematic for it with its EQ, however it's still worth to mention considering Fire type become increasingly more important to answer well. Honchkrow also doesn't appreciate getting WoW'd or suffering 30% chance from Flame Body (completely disregarding how well it walls the bird lmao). It's also ever so slightly flexible. I don't think you can justify compressing hazard set-up and removal onto it, but Flamethrower, Power Gem, WoW and Spin/Rocks/Spikes is a pretty neat combination of moves for a pretty bulky mon, despite the typing issues.


UR -> C/B-
This is the wildest nom, but I'm genuinely shocked it's not ranked. Its bulk is quite alright thanks to its HP stat, it's got reliable recovery in Roost, access to Paralysis, Poison AND Sleep, Stealth Rock. Alternatively you can go for some memey stuff with the usual stuff you saw on ladder. Now that probably its #1 nemesis in Haunter is gone (there's still Drakloak but i don't think it's on quite the same level) its walling capabilities are more present.
EDIT: As per suggestion from rien i'm going to post some replays with this mon so that it's not a completely unsubstantiated nom:
Replay 1
Replay 2

I hope you found these reasonable and that i didn't just waste my time because of my inexperience

 

[TTK]

B- to B: One of the best Raichu checks in the tier, which has gotten better thanks to these shifts. I think this mon is pretty slept on, can check Zard and Honchkrow to a certain extent, has Spikes and forces out the tier's premier spiker Vespiquen. Tera Water also allows it to soft check a good amount of common things like the fires, Dugtrio and Camerupt, Basculin and just is an annoying pokemon to deal with thanks to spreading para with Discharge and actually having reliable recovery.

Don't have much else to say, , are probably A rank mons with potentially being A+ idrc where it is. is like B/B-, actually can differentiate itself from Vespiquen with Webs and can go offensive somewhat. is cool too and definitely deserves the hype and and are whatever.

I also agree with a rise, whoever nommed it good job. Spdef is an actual good fire check, has good momentum but it finds itself chipped down so quickly since odds are you aren't going leftovers. Every rocker bar Perrserker kinda folds to it too.

 

[Chloe]

just rushing out some quick noms

a -> a+ | this should've been a+ from the get go and i don't really know how it managed to get slotted in a instead; anyone who has played the tier in the last few months should not be shocked my this nom. it switches into a plethora of potential wallbreakers, has rocks access, can phaze. you all know what gabite does. not rly sure what else to say as new meta trends dont rly help or hinder its viability imo, it just definitely belongs above the likes of the mons currently in a rank.

a -> b+ | rotom-fan kind of struggles to justify itself in the current meta over other volt turn pivots, benefited a lot more from the vivillon meta but now that viv is gone i feel like this drop in rank is fairly justified. still a fairly good pokemon but i find it hard to evaluate it as of similar viability to the other pokemon currently in a-.

b- -> b | electrode's speed tier is insane and volt switches on everything, its access to ice tera blast allows it to scare out dugtrio / scarf flapple / gabite, and it lacks substantial defensive counterplay due to this. really cool thing in practice that i've been getting a lot of mileage out of lately.

c -> b | solid defensive water that is easy to slot on a lot of balance builds, can check offensive fires pretty decently / force their tera. its access to uturn and encore allows it not to be passive set up fodder / pivot into offensive mons with ease. fairly underrated i think it definitely deserves higher than c.

 

[rien]

VR Update - May 7th, 2023

first update of the gen just in time for pu open, hooray Shaneghoul decided to sit this one out due to not getting much playtime post-shifts, so we invited Togkey to vote in his place as rotational voter. in order to encourage transparency, we'll be making the vr voting sheets public along with short reasonings from each council member regarding each of their votes. you may view the sheet here!

new
Charizard NEW > A+
Honchkrow NEW > A
Dachsbun NEW > A-
Spidops NEW > B-
Crocalor NEW > C

rises
Gabite A > A+
Raichu A > A+
Indeedee-F A- > A
Lilligant A- > A
Flapple B+ > A-
Lumineon C > B
Sneasel UR > B-
Dunsparce UR > C
Flareon UR > C
Fraxure UR > C

drops
Houndoom A+ > A
Quaxwell A- > B+
Rotom-Fan A- > B+
Falinks B > B-
Glimmet B > B-
Zweilous B- > UR

looking forward to reading your future noms as the metagame progresses. if you have any questions about the voting slate feel free to ask in the pu discord. thank you for participating!

 

[eeriespell]

Making some noms again because I've really been loving this tier lately :)!


B+ > B
This is by no means bad, it's just... hard to fit on teams. It has Yawn and sets hazards while having some serviceable bulk, but that's about all that sets it apart from the three other excellent special Fire breakers we have. You can't really afford a move to hit Zard, you get dunked on by Lumineon which is beginning to rise in popularity, and you lose to the most common spinner we have. Meta just isn't super kind to camel rn and I think a drop to B reflects that.


C > B-
Now that we have actual defensive pieces, stall is beginning to take its first steps, and Sliggoo is starting to establish itself on these teams as a very reliable way to absorb big hits from a lot of threatening special breakers. Dragon's resistances as well as the immunity provided by Sap Sipper and the added bulk from Eviolite allow it to be an extremely fat wall that just sits on things for a little while and wears them down. The lack of Knock Off users is also really helpful as it means Sliggoo doesn't have too much to worry about in terms of losing Eviolite. Lack of being able to hold Boots in a meta with like, 0 removal does hurt, but I think that establishing itself as a core piece of a playstyle is good enough to warrant a rise. If we had a C+ that'd be my nomination but for now I think B- is fine.


A > A+
Duggy's got a lot going for it right now, the speed tier it's in is extremely relevant, allowing it to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame bar Electrode and hit back extremely hard. EdgeQuake covers all of the Fires as well as Tinkatuff, Skuntank (!), Perrserker, and Vespiquen, while Sucker Punch gives handy priority and Stealth Rock and Memento give functionality as a lead. It does have competiton with Gabite as a Ground, but aside from offering a way to absorb Volt Switch the two honestly do entirely different things.

 

[Morge]

B+ > B
This is by no means bad, it's just... hard to fit on teams. It has Yawn and sets hazards while having some serviceable bulk, but that's about all that sets it apart from the three other excellent special Fire breakers we have. You can't really afford a move to hit Zard, you get dunked on by Lumineon which is beginning to rise in popularity, and you lose to the most common spinner we have. Meta just isn't super kind to camel rn and I think a drop to B reflects that.

Seconding camerupt dropping, I really liked camerupt early on in the tier but its become increasingly hard to justify running over other options. There's a plethora of fire types better than it and as a ground type rocker gabite gives it some rough competition. Its also not great as a ground type IMO, with raichu as the best electric type in the tier and packing surf camerupt kinda struggles as an electric immunity. It checks rotom fan, ampharos and electrode just fine but those last two are fairly niche, and even pincurchin packs surf and hydro pump for it. Its still got yawn and arguably preforms better against electrode and ampharos due to being neutral to ice/resisting dazzling gleam, but its a hard sell over generally more consistent options.

 

[Aurist]

As the tier's resident Camerupt defender I have to agree that its place in the tier has been shrinking lately. It still does its job of tanking a hard hit and KOing back while having some decent utility, but the meta really has picked up a lot of mons that dumpster it to the point where it's not as broadly applicable as it once was. The increase in actual defensive mons in the tier reduces its viability as a mon that to some extent was pretending to be a bulky mon for a tier that didn't have any. Agree to fall to B, it's certainly no worse than that though.

The logic above with increase of defensive mons applies positively to Sliggoo as semi-stall is seeing slivers of usability. It's also an evio wall that actually takes hits after hazard damage. I can agree with a rise to B-, the tier of "it's bad but it has a place"...

Dugtrio has always been A+ good and the world is finally catching up. Outspeeding everything unboosted with the flexibility of priority, combined with the fact it can just tera and 2hko anything at worst makes this a mon that's hard not to slot in. If there's any argument against it's that the tier does have quite a bit of priority and Dug loses the priority wars, but frankly that's the only real way you're revenging this mon anyway so I don't find that compelling.

 

[Theblobfishman9]

A -> B+
Crab looks way better on paper then how it actually is in the tier. Previously AV ele crab had good matchups against , , and but as they got the axe, crab became less useful. Crab is also pretty reliant on tera and there are just better mons to use your tera on like , , and . It can be good on a tr team but then you have to run a tr team which is unfortunate. Its a good mon on a well made team but it doesnt deserve A tier status.

UR -> B-
Pupitar is a widely underused mon in the teir, it is a good rocker that can also has somewhat reliable recovery with rest + shedskin. Additionally it has access to both dragon dance and curse which can turn pupitar into a problem of its own. Those sets are a bit reliant on tera due to its 4x weakness to water and grass, but these sets are still more than useable. I wouldnt argue this is a great mon, but this mon at the bare minimum deserves a spot on the vr ranking. (Also the shiny form is awesome)