Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Some thoughts on Tera, mainly circling Kingambit, but I think the mechanic is ultimately the problem: Offensive Tera, getting Adaptability and potentially dropping one of your types, is mostly balanced. The instances where Kingambit gets a 2HKO on Dondozo with Kowtow Cleave and Kilowattrel gets a 2HKO on Clodsire are the natural result of getting a game-unique one-mon power boost, and the defensive downsides of losing a second type usually balances that out. If Kingambit loses his Steel-type, well, I was going to list all the negatives of losing Steel-type and then I realized the post would be too long.

All of my "This is bullshit" moments with Tera have been the result of what I think of as a defensive Tera, such as Kingambit changing his type to Flying or Fire, flipping his defensive type-chart on its head but maintaining both of his STABs while gaining a potential third STAB. Dragonite and Volcarona also engage in this, favoring Normal and Grass respectively (as far as I've seen). I also see (read: use myself because I'm an idiot) Electric Valiant for resisting Flying and getting STAB on Thunderbolt to hit Corv that much harder. This is less of a direct issue for more explicitly defensive Teras like Garganacl, because they're not often relying on STAB without the ST part like Iron Moth or Bax, but I've found that even these worsen matchup fishing. I'll often build teams with a sort of "I can reliably break two mons of X type for my sweeper to clean" mindset, when time and time again their last mon will happen to have the necessary Tera to shut down my team.

The defensive type-changing feels unchallengable in a way that, comparatively, Megas didn't. Altaria may have dropped its Rock and Dragon weaknesses every time it Mega Evolved, but it always kept its Ice weakness (even if it halved it) and reliably gained Steel and Poison weaknesses. Maybe you'll have another Steel-type Attack if that Skeledirge Teras into Fairy, but if it's Water you're just screwed, and there's no way to tell.

Every measure of balancing Tera without fully removing it I've seen smells just a little like a complex ban, and while I appreciate that we're trying to preserve the signature mechanic of the generation, I think it would be better to either fully ban it or accept as a community that we're going to be dealing with an extremely fishy generation.
 
Eeveeto said:
Match-up reliant
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Only against Dozo, in every other scenario it does something. Beats Gambit always even if teras into flying, reverse sweeps several physical sweepers. It is just too good and don't know why people likes to use Tusk without fighting stab when it is the answer to dark mons.
 
Mega Breloom said:
Bulk up + body press>>>>>>>>>>>>knock off Tusk.
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Walled by Talonflame, amusingly. Another victory for superior defog bird.

I'm on the Fighting Stab / Ground Stab / Knock Off / Rapid Spin train. Even in an unfavorable matchup, nothing really enjoys coming into a Knock Off, allowing Tusk to contribute.
 
Alternator said:
Walled by Talonflame, amusingly. Another victory for superior defog bird.

I'm on the Fighting Stab / Ground Stab / Knock Off / Rapid Spin train. Even in an unfavorable matchup, nothing really enjoys coming into a Knock Off, allowing Tusk to contribute.
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With home and all the returning flying types, which move will you drop for something like stone edge or ice spiner? I think spinner will be a must with Zapdos and Lando around.
 
tyranitar vs hippowdon? ttar kind of fell off since losing pursuit this gen but ive been really liking him as a resto-chesto rock setter. his entire purpose is really just making sure sand is breaking focus sash of meow, ceruledge, breloom, and multiscale dragonite. Id been using him over hippo because hes a better 1 time answer to volc and better lead matchup against glimmora etc.

Tyranitar @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
- Crunch
- Rock Blast

Even though there arent any good sand abusers at the moment, i think derailing sun and rain makes it a viable weather just for that reason, it does well against torkoal and you're outsped by pelipper which means lead vs lead you keep sand up. i think he's still got what it takes for OU
 
1LDK said:
I have been using Cyclizar myself and from what I recollected

Choice Specs sets sucks ass, they don't hit anything particularly hard enough aside from tusk and they are easily exploitable

Mix sets with LO draco meteor a la chain chomp are 100% maximum cringe beyond belief, don't even bother

Choice Band tho, now THIS is where the heat at, Double edge always 2HKOs Offensive tusk and 3HKOs defensive tusk, your uturns, knocks and spins are also juicer, and regenerator + uturn makes it a really choice locked friendly user

I haven't used shift gear sets but shift gear + taunt sounds like a cool stallbreaker
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The set I use for Draco/Overheat isn't mixed, its full on Special Attack invested so it can score key KOs on things like Gholdengo and to dent non-Dragon resists when they come into Cyclizar. I've found that even an uninvested Knock Off does well enough damage and you're not clicking Knock/U-Turn/Rapid Spin for the damage, you're doing it for the utility. I do agree that the Choice sets/Wallbreaker sets are kind of bad... Cyclizar is definitely an utility mon that can do some respectable damage, but trying to set up/wall break with it is a fool's errand imo.

With that being said, I hadn't considered physical Cyclizar... maybe I'll try it out, I just wasn't convinced about it because of the many physical walls that exist in the tier, despite the lizard having higher physical attack.

------

RE: Intelleon. While I do agree that it looks... unfortunate in-game, I have warmed up to it after seeing it on other media. Like, did you know Intelleon has a water knife hidden inside its tail that it can use to Assassin's Creed style cut up dudes from the shadows? I didn't until I saw the concept art and I'm sad that it isn't featured ANYWHERE in-game. Regardless, the lizard is definitely popular so I'm not surprised that GF went for a Tera Raid slot for it.
 
Mega Breloom said:
With home and all the returning flying types, which move will you drop for something like stone edge or ice spiner? I think spinner will be a must with Zapdos and Lando around.
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Ice spinner is almost guaranteed to be the choice. Stone edge, aside from accuracy issues has poor PP and is useless into LandoT. TornT as well will force it to run spinner. (All the fliers returning will also screw the viability of bulky tusk, which is a set I personally dislike already).

tommytt22 said:
tyranitar vs hippowdon? ttar kind of fell off since losing pursuit this gen but ive been really liking him as a resto-chesto rock setter. his entire purpose is really just making sure sand is breaking focus sash of meow, ceruledge, breloom, and multiscale dragonite. Id been using him over hippo because hes a better 1 time answer to volc and better lead matchup against glimmora etc.

Tyranitar @ Chesto Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rest
- Crunch
- Rock Blast

Even though there arent any good sand abusers at the moment, i think derailing sun and rain makes it a viable weather just for that reason, it does well against torkoal and you're outsped by pelipper which means lead vs lead you keep sand up. i think he's still got what it takes for OU
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The problem with this sort of set is the same as it always is. Spdef Ttar is passive as all get out, weak and exploitable. Sash users like Loom or Meow are often leads, and Ttar can't even beat them. While Ceru is hazard weak and thus... Just break sash that way. Rain isn't common enough to need to waste a slot with a useless mon just to cut off rain, especially when you can use Slowking who can cut off weather while being a good pivot, which also applies to sun.

Ttar just doesn't have any tangible niche in OU. Sadly for its fans.
 
Mega Breloom said:
With home and all the returning flying types, which move will you drop for something like stone edge or ice spiner? I think spinner will be a must with Zapdos and Lando around.
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Depends on the team and what you're using Tusk for, but if I'm dropping a move to hit the fliers, I'm taking Ice Spinner over Stone Edge every time. Bulky sets can drop Rapid Spin if the team has other removal, while offensive sets might not mind losing Knock Off too badly, since Ground/Fighting/Ice can handle anything short of a Dondozo well enough.

If you need to keep Knock Off, I'd sooner drop the fighting move than the ground move. Ground/Ice is outstanding, and the only scary bug doesn't resist ground attacks anyway.
 
Schpoonman said:
Some thoughts on Tera, mainly circling Kingambit, but I think the mechanic is ultimately the problem: Offensive Tera, getting Adaptability and potentially dropping one of your types, is mostly balanced. The instances where Kingambit gets a 2HKO on Dondozo with Kowtow Cleave and Kilowattrel gets a 2HKO on Clodsire are the natural result of getting a game-unique one-mon power boost, and the defensive downsides of losing a second type usually balances that out. If Kingambit loses his Steel-type, well, I was going to list all the negatives of losing Steel-type and then I realized the post would be too long.

All of my "This is bullshit" moments with Tera have been the result of what I think of as a defensive Tera, such as Kingambit changing his type to Flying or Fire, flipping his defensive type-chart on its head but maintaining both of his STABs while gaining a potential third STAB. Dragonite and Volcarona also engage in this, favoring Normal and Grass respectively (as far as I've seen). I also see (read: use myself because I'm an idiot) Electric Valiant for resisting Flying and getting STAB on Thunderbolt to hit Corv that much harder. This is less of a direct issue for more explicitly defensive Teras like Garganacl, because they're not often relying on STAB without the ST part like Iron Moth or Bax, but I've found that even these worsen matchup fishing. I'll often build teams with a sort of "I can reliably break two mons of X type for my sweeper to clean" mindset, when time and time again their last mon will happen to have the necessary Tera to shut down my team.

The defensive type-changing feels unchallengable in a way that, comparatively, Megas didn't. Altaria may have dropped its Rock and Dragon weaknesses every time it Mega Evolved, but it always kept its Ice weakness (even if it halved it) and reliably gained Steel and Poison weaknesses. Maybe you'll have another Steel-type Attack if that Skeledirge Teras into Fairy, but if it's Water you're just screwed, and there's no way to tell.

Every measure of balancing Tera without fully removing it I've seen smells just a little like a complex ban, and while I appreciate that we're trying to preserve the signature mechanic of the generation, I think it would be better to either fully ban it or accept as a community that we're going to be dealing with an extremely fishy generation.
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I’m the exact opposite. When someone teras defensively and screws me I just think “damn that was a good bait”. When I switch in my counter and it gets 2hkoed by a mindless offensive tera is when the mechanic gets annoying to me.
 
Alternator said:
Depends on the team and what you're using Tusk for, but if I'm dropping a move to hit the fliers, I'm taking Ice Spinner over Stone Edge every time. Bulky sets can drop Rapid Spin if the team has other removal, while offensive sets might not mind losing Knock Off too badly, since Ground/Fighting/Ice can handle anything short of a Dondozo well enough.

If you need to keep Knock Off, I'd sooner drop the fighting move than the ground move. Ground/Ice is outstanding, and the only scary bug doesn't resist ground attacks anyway.
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I don't know Stone Edge avoiding static or flame body may be something to consider, it also hits Enamorus-T.
 
Mega Breloom said:
With home and all the returning flying types, which move will you drop for something like stone edge or ice spiner? I think spinner will be a must with Zapdos and Lando around.
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you drop fighting stab because you 100% need ground stab in this meta

also because tusk is better lando and gen 7 lando used to run hp ice with eq, knock and defog
 
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okay here's my personal take on tera, as someone who isn't INSANELY good at the tier, but knows it well enough:
i dont really like it so far. and its not cause i hate losing to a well timed tera pop that removes a weakness and lets them sweep, thats something i would personally have to get used to! knowing the most common tera types and predicting when the opponent might use them is a new skill we have to learn, even if it does inherently sting when you lose a game to it.

does that make tera an auto win button even with good play? no, far from it! you can still get your ankles shattered even with changing a weakness. the main reason its so nasty, in my honest opinion, is two things in particular. defensive pokemon getting better types, and adaptability boosted same type tera offenses.

THE DEFENSE BAYBEEEEE
i dont personally struggle too much against stall in this gen, even with stuff like garg running around. the main issue is something like garg or toxapex being able to go tera water or maybe tera fairy respectively, i believe. flipping the checks on an offensive mon? yeah its rough, but its still the same threat to your team at the end of the day. a breloom with or without tera fire still has spore and mach punch. but losing a mon to a defensive trap like block garg or infestation pex because they tera'd? that stings! counterplay will always be there, but its inherently harder to stop defense from going hog wild if they can change their weaknesses- the entire point of the mons is to be support. but if the support can just pull a gotcha card and flip the script out of nowhere, with no drawbacks? personally, i dont like that.


dear god why can you boost your stab with tera god whywhwyhwy
offense is offense- everybody knows it. the offense in this generation is some of the nuttiest we've ever had, but they still have their checks and counters. HOWEVER. i genuinely hate the fact that you can just go one of your attacking types and blow a hole with an adaptability boost. your checks may not even consistently BE checks anymore if they just get blown through by you getting a boost with no real downside, all things considered. yeah you lose a type, but what does that really change? chances are if you were a dragapult beforehand, and you go tera ghost, what does that really do? you beat fairies now, but your checks remain mostly the same, kingambit will just break your kneecaps like usual.
YOU DONT EVEN LOSE YOUR OLD STAB WHEN YA TERA! you can still toss out dracos or dragon darts willy nilly, you just become better and stronger, out of nowhere, and your opponent doesnt get to really bring in any interesting counterplay for it. its like somebody slapped a slightly weaker adaptability on their pokemons ability list and said to have fun.
i truly, truly hate how the rich get richer and the poor stay neutered with tera. and this is my main gripe with it, plain and simple.
(sorry if this was kinda cluttered, i'm very very new to writing these long essay type replies. i'm fairly new to the forums, i mostly browse. if you're reading this far, go drink water and have a lovely day)
 
tera is annoying sometimes yes
if im playing against a kingambit as great tusk and they tera fairy me id be pretty pissed but the more you play the more you can expect of what mons will tera to roughly what types and play around that
as someone who is pro tera I like to think of tera as an opportunity cost; using tera early on in a game is not the best idea however say if they straight up just tera to kill 1 Pokemon and I still have tera it is very playable and easy to play around that terad mon. sometimes there are games where tera is unnecessary as well, or even worse for your team; tera requires skill to play with and around and I would consider it strategic and not broken like shed tail
if u have played OU u would know the basic gist of tera types on most mons and you can play around that as well; ofc there is always the random surprise tera like tera fighting Amoonguss or something but in most cases you can kinda tell what tera the opponents are going based on team comp and stuff
for eg. dragonite normally tera normals but u shouldn't be surprised if it tera fires
on a team with plenty of dragon types u shouldn't be surprised if one of them tera steels and fucks you over
if you switch great tusk in front of a roaring moon 99% of the time they tera flying

I understand that its hella cringe that the opponent can just tera out of a weakness but you gotta understand that if they tera out of a weakness an you still have tera that Pokemon will get new weaknesses/strengths and if you have tera you can play around that
its all around playing around this niche and tbh the more you play the more you can experience tera gimmicks and stuff

if you think tera is so op as its claimed to be perhaps you could also go and abuse it its just something you have to adapt to
 
Exotic64 said:
if you think tera is so op as its claimed to be perhaps you could also go and abuse it its just something you have to adapt to
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i never said it was overpowered, though! i said it was annoying, and that i didnt personally like it. i even said this exact argument," knowing the most common tera types and predicting when the opponent might use them is a new skill we have to learn, even if it does inherently sting when you lose a game to it." my main gripe, like i said before, was just how getting stronger with no downside and no interesting or new counterplay is kinda goofy, and i dont personally enjoy it.
i'm not trying to say tera is broken or that we should ban it, i'm just voicing my own thoughts here. as annoying as it can be to face, its probably one of the better in game gimmicks we've gotten, next to meta evolutions. it was practically designed for competitive play it feels, there are just some things i have issues with.
 
cosmogii said:
i never said it was overpowered, though! i said it was annoying, and that i didnt personally like it. i even said this exact argument," knowing the most common tera types and predicting when the opponent might use them is a new skill we have to learn, even if it does inherently sting when you lose a game to it." why so passive aggressive with that reply?
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haha didn't mean to direct towards you, in general ive seen about 70% of the player base saying tera is hella broken and stuff but if you wanna see op take a look at shed tail and chiyu
I do agree with the flipping checks on stuff like iron valiant and gambit being hella annoying, if there's one thing that loses me games its gotta just be that
recently I lost my peak game because of a tera dragon corviknight, I can't lie stuff like that is just something you have to deal with when it comes to tera
 
Exotic64 said:
haha didn't mean to direct towards you, in general ive seen about 70% of the player base saying tera is hella broken and stuff but if you wanna see op take a look at shed tail and chiyu
I do agree with the flipping checks on stuff like iron valiant and gambit being hella annoying, if there's one thing that loses me games its gotta just be that
recently I lost my peak game because of a tera dragon corviknight, I can't lie stuff like that is just something you have to deal with when it comes to tera
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i feel like a jerk now lol, thats my fault man. probably should've guessed since it wasnt actually directed as a reply. tera will always have cheese ig, but so did z moves and megas. and we allowed those too. not really an apt comparison since both force you to sacrifice something, your item slot, in order to get the boons. tera is so controversial imo because its risk simply isnt a factor, the risk is not being able to tera another mon.
 
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If the argument is
Tera is broken
VS
You can predict common teras/You can bait a tera and punish it later with your own tera

Then the question would be: Are you still able to save yourself even if you know that?
If you know Moon or gambit are probably going Flying
Does that really help you speaking strictly about battle timing/momentum?
Will you still be able to save your team from a sweep with that information?
You knew the Orthworm would Shed Tail as soon as it hit the field. Was that enough to save you from it's sub-passing scheme?
Not trying to be pro tera ban, just asking in a neutral way
 
I find it really interesting that while Inteleon dropping isn't going to mean anything to the tier right now, but that it pretty much just missed its shot.

If it was in the meta before Walking Wake dropped, it probably would've had some respect on it's name. The strongest special attacking Water type in OU besides Wake is Rotom-Wash, which is not winning any awards for strength, (It's beat in power by Samurott.) and the likes of Clawitzer, Tatsugiri and Vaporeon don't bring a lot to the table in OU. Inteleon meanwhile is much faster than Walking Wake while still being just as strong and packing U-turn. Prior to the rise Slowking, Toxapex, and Water Absorb!Clodsire in the meta as specific anti-Walking Wake measures, it wasn't super uncommon to make a team that just didn't have a great Hydro Pump switch-in. Now they're aplenty.
 
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