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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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If Tera is going to be looked at again, I'd prefer if Eleki and Pao got looked at first , if needed, so pro-Tera arguments aren't littered with "Tera isn't the problem, Eleki is the problem!" Though unless Gastrodon makes some miraculous comeback, Eleki's probably gonna get banned in a week.
I'm not a fan of Pao on principle (basically it's all the worst things about Pokemon's power creep rolled into one). It seems like it's going to be "problematic, but it has enough resists where you can't argue it's completely broken" kinda like Urshifu was in IoA. As it still beats Koko in a race and its strength still makes Kartana blush, I'd rather it stay in Ubers but gets legalized for a suspect test.
I'm not a fan of Pao on principle (basically it's all the worst things about Pokemon's power creep rolled into one). It seems like it's going to be "problematic, but it has enough resists where you can't argue it's completely broken" kinda like Urshifu was in IoA. As it still beats Koko in a race and its strength still makes Kartana blush, I'd rather it stay in Ubers but gets legalized for a suspect test.
If how its worded, don't expect all the knock off and toxic spam to return. It seems like its just Gen 8 onwards stuff. If it can get it gen 8+, then its fine. For example, Bisharp hasn't had Knock Off available to learn in a game since gen 7, and Toxic has been nearly wiped from the movepool.
Hello Finch, are the 2 forms of Basculegion included in the votes?
Why not propose Last Respects in vote rather than Basculegion?
Don't know why some of you want a dog with 120 atk, 138 spd and 92/115/115 defenses in the tier... Madnesss...
Does anyone else think that Zamazenta-Hero could be better than Crowned?
Zamazenta-Hero reaches 412 speed at 252 Jolly, whilst Crowned reaches 390. Zama-Hero outspeeds Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane and Bundle (If they get unbanned). Hero can run band, scarf, lefties, boots, etc, whilst crowned is stuck to rusted shield.
Zamazenta-Hero isnt weak to Tusk's stabs, though it will be worse against Valiant, and can be poisoned. Crowned is quad resistant to rocks anyway, so maybe boots arent necessary.
Zamazenta-Hero reaches 412 speed at 252 Jolly, whilst Crowned reaches 390. Zama-Hero outspeeds Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane and Bundle (If they get unbanned). Hero can run band, scarf, lefties, boots, etc, whilst crowned is stuck to rusted shield.
Zamazenta-Hero isnt weak to Tusk's stabs, though it will be worse against Valiant, and can be poisoned. Crowned is quad resistant to rocks anyway, so maybe boots arent necessary.
I agree that it's madness, but not on our part. GF has invited power creep so bad that a fast, Legendary Contrary Fairy-type isn't going to be broken, Unaware mons with actual stats roam the land and Garchomp's trademark Speed tier isn't patently ridiculous anymore. They're balancing it in the Yu-Gi-Oh sort of way and I can't say I'm a fan.
free my man annihilape
Did they actually explain how the move relearner functionality in Home is going to work? The details seemed vague in the announcement. I just kinda took it as it’ll be a game-by-game basis where when you have a certain game selected in Home, the moves you want to relearn for your Pokémon adhere to the moveset restrictions for that game.
The Japanese site honestly isn't all that ambiguous. It mentions the only limitations being removed moves and moves a pokemon has learned before.
Does relearning moves from prior games include relearning all moves from SwSw?
Because honestly if so, suspect Scald. It's been a frustrating moves for generations and I think the gen 9 OU playerbase greatly enjoyed its time without the move. Let's look into mons first but once those are somewhat in order, I would greatly appreciate a vote on the legality of Scald
Because honestly if so, suspect Scald. It's been a frustrating moves for generations and I think the gen 9 OU playerbase greatly enjoyed its time without the move. Let's look into mons first but once those are somewhat in order, I would greatly appreciate a vote on the legality of Scald
Only moves that the pokemon can learn in any of the gen 8 or gen 9 games carry over when transfered (some moves from BDSP are excluded)
This also seems to be universal functionality for any linked game and not just S&V (swords dance urshifu in gen 8
)Source: https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-...mon-scarlet-and-pokemon-violet-is-coming-soon
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If Scald returns in droves, it's highly likely that Covert Cloak will finally be a useful and legit item, as it's a move that will be very widespread, and there will finally be a real reason to use this item.
We need to unban everything that isn't obviously broken and embrace the power creep.
We also need to discover what mons are broken and what mons are broken by Tera.
Annihilape: Obviously broken- Rage Fist invalidates entire playstyles
Basculegion: Obviously broken - Last Respects is a meme
Chi Yu: Unban- No one dislikes Cheese-Yu more than me but as stated, we should try to embrace the power creep
Chien Pao: Unban- Pushed out by Tera, needs another chance
Espathra: Unban -SP cheese would be fine w/o Tera
Flutter Mane: Unban- Paper defense but we need to at least test this monster out
Houndstone: Obviously Broken- Last Respects is a meme
Iron Bundle: Unban- Same logic with Flutter- we need to see how it performs in the meta
Lando-I: Test- Yes. Even Lando-I, even w NP.
Magearna: Test- This thing lost SP- which was a huge reason it was OP last gen. It's still insane, but we need a steel/fairy in this meta
Palafin: Unban- We need to see how Fin performs w the power creep meta
Regieleki: Test- Clodsire exists and you have to Tera basically. Essentially, we deserve to play the meta w Leki, then see how Tera pushes it out.
Spectrier: Test- Gambit and Garg exist and we need to see how it performs
Urshifu: Test- Just embrace the creep
Zamazenta: Test- See above
Zamazenta Test- See above
To quickban something like Leki feels like major Tera cope.
Leki is a well designed, fun mon with obvious flaws baked in for balancing.
It feels like we want to ban as many mons as possible before they even get a chance, to mitigate the argument that Tera is forcing out a dozen or more mons from the meta.
Like, you can't miss what you never had? Wild.
If gen 9 OU looks a bit like Ubers for a min, so be it.
Even something insane like Lando-I could be revenged with Ice Shard. (but not if it Teras.)
Early meta should always be chaotic and have a power creep.
We either:
A) Keep Tera and allow most mons to be tested in OU, then ban accordingly to which mons Tera pushes out.
B) Ban a bunch of mons we know will be OP due to Tera, such as Leki (Terrible choice)
C) Keep Tera, allow most mons, QB a handful that we assume would be broken w or w/o Tera, then suspect test Tera.
We should also look into a separate ladder where mons like Leki are allowed but Tera is banned- and thus obviously Leki will be fine.
Quickbanning mons because they might be broken with Tera is lazy and unproductive-it doesn't gather pertinent data nor does it allow the playerbase to make the most informed decision with their Tera suspect vote.
This info is needed to have a legitimate Tera suspect. There will be players who enjoy the fast-spinner, spa elec mon for a few days, and then load up another day and see it's been banned due to Tera Fairy/Ice whatever.
Even if we ban all these mons day 1 deemed broken by Tera before they ever get a chance, all this does is move the Tera power creep down to things like G-Molt, G-Zap, Volcanion, Hoopa, Tran, - as well as letting Val, Gambit, Tusk, etc to set the benchmark on what's broken or not.
The initial suspect wasn't handled properly- too soon, too convoluted, too much hype.
It's a mistake that anyone would have made if they were council.
Now is the time to properly road map a Tera suspect.
What are we going to do, ban Leki, have a Tera suspect, then unban it if Tera does get banned?
Losing mons to Tera was whatever in the Mickey Mouse meta that is/was Pre-Home, like who cares right? It was just Espa and Pao pretty much.
But now with Home and upcoming DLC, how many Pokemon are we really going to sacrifice without giving Tera a proper suspect?
Tera can no longer be ignored and played around with like we have been. It's been a cute little ride, but now the variance just went through the roof.
Tera can only work in a small, limited meta.
It's been working out because we have a handful of viable mons, and their Teras are well known to some extent after several months.
When you add in another 50+ mons, it falls apart.
Even something as benign as Gliscor when it drops in DLC could be OP with Tera.
The party is over, sorry.
No one wants to see some DLC mon, look at its stats/moves/ability/design and be like oh this is really cool, really balanced and looks fun, but then have to think again and go.. ah, but if it Teras into a Fairy....
If a mon is broken by Tera, then Tera needs another suspect.
A simple ban/no ban vote, ideally coupled with a separate test ladder so players can actually see what they're voting for.
The initial Tera suspect mishandling can be forgiven, but to sit back and continually ban mons that are pushed out by Tera every few weeks for the next 2 years would be beyond the pale when it comes to leadership of this metagame.
We also need to discover what mons are broken and what mons are broken by Tera.
Annihilape: Obviously broken- Rage Fist invalidates entire playstyles
Basculegion: Obviously broken - Last Respects is a meme
Chi Yu: Unban- No one dislikes Cheese-Yu more than me but as stated, we should try to embrace the power creep
Chien Pao: Unban- Pushed out by Tera, needs another chance
Espathra: Unban -SP cheese would be fine w/o Tera
Flutter Mane: Unban- Paper defense but we need to at least test this monster out
Houndstone: Obviously Broken- Last Respects is a meme
Iron Bundle: Unban- Same logic with Flutter- we need to see how it performs in the meta
Lando-I: Test- Yes. Even Lando-I, even w NP.
Magearna: Test- This thing lost SP- which was a huge reason it was OP last gen. It's still insane, but we need a steel/fairy in this meta
Palafin: Unban- We need to see how Fin performs w the power creep meta
Regieleki: Test- Clodsire exists and you have to Tera basically. Essentially, we deserve to play the meta w Leki, then see how Tera pushes it out.
Spectrier: Test- Gambit and Garg exist and we need to see how it performs
Urshifu: Test- Just embrace the creep
Zamazenta: Test- See above
Zamazenta Test- See above
To quickban something like Leki feels like major Tera cope.
Leki is a well designed, fun mon with obvious flaws baked in for balancing.
It feels like we want to ban as many mons as possible before they even get a chance, to mitigate the argument that Tera is forcing out a dozen or more mons from the meta.
Like, you can't miss what you never had? Wild.
If gen 9 OU looks a bit like Ubers for a min, so be it.
Even something insane like Lando-I could be revenged with Ice Shard. (but not if it Teras.)
Early meta should always be chaotic and have a power creep.
We either:
A) Keep Tera and allow most mons to be tested in OU, then ban accordingly to which mons Tera pushes out.
B) Ban a bunch of mons we know will be OP due to Tera, such as Leki (Terrible choice)
C) Keep Tera, allow most mons, QB a handful that we assume would be broken w or w/o Tera, then suspect test Tera.
We should also look into a separate ladder where mons like Leki are allowed but Tera is banned- and thus obviously Leki will be fine.
Quickbanning mons because they might be broken with Tera is lazy and unproductive-it doesn't gather pertinent data nor does it allow the playerbase to make the most informed decision with their Tera suspect vote.
This info is needed to have a legitimate Tera suspect. There will be players who enjoy the fast-spinner, spa elec mon for a few days, and then load up another day and see it's been banned due to Tera Fairy/Ice whatever.
Even if we ban all these mons day 1 deemed broken by Tera before they ever get a chance, all this does is move the Tera power creep down to things like G-Molt, G-Zap, Volcanion, Hoopa, Tran, - as well as letting Val, Gambit, Tusk, etc to set the benchmark on what's broken or not.
The initial suspect wasn't handled properly- too soon, too convoluted, too much hype.
It's a mistake that anyone would have made if they were council.
Now is the time to properly road map a Tera suspect.
What are we going to do, ban Leki, have a Tera suspect, then unban it if Tera does get banned?
Losing mons to Tera was whatever in the Mickey Mouse meta that is/was Pre-Home, like who cares right? It was just Espa and Pao pretty much.
But now with Home and upcoming DLC, how many Pokemon are we really going to sacrifice without giving Tera a proper suspect?
Tera can no longer be ignored and played around with like we have been. It's been a cute little ride, but now the variance just went through the roof.
Tera can only work in a small, limited meta.
It's been working out because we have a handful of viable mons, and their Teras are well known to some extent after several months.
When you add in another 50+ mons, it falls apart.
Even something as benign as Gliscor when it drops in DLC could be OP with Tera.
The party is over, sorry.
No one wants to see some DLC mon, look at its stats/moves/ability/design and be like oh this is really cool, really balanced and looks fun, but then have to think again and go.. ah, but if it Teras into a Fairy....
If a mon is broken by Tera, then Tera needs another suspect.
A simple ban/no ban vote, ideally coupled with a separate test ladder so players can actually see what they're voting for.
The initial Tera suspect mishandling can be forgiven, but to sit back and continually ban mons that are pushed out by Tera every few weeks for the next 2 years would be beyond the pale when it comes to leadership of this metagame.
See I wasn't actually going to because I don't think Zamazenta should be freed yet (there are already very few good Fighting resists in this tier) but I do think Zacian is much more palatable than you'd think just based off "omg it's Zacian". Also for clarity the stats in the image above are wrong, it got nerfed to 120 Attack this gen.
I'll keep it short but essentially Zacian Hero and Zamazenta Hero are now the same Pokemon with different typings. They have small movepool differences - Zacian gets SD, Zamazenta gets ID (+ BPress), and obviously they have their different abilities but those matter a lot less now considering they only activate once per battle; in a sense they're basically Booster Energy.
Based on that you'd think Zacian >>>>>>> Zamazenta a billion times but relatively weak Fairy STAB just doesn't cut it once Intrepid Sword is used up. It's still not helping you break past Corviknight or Gholdengo or w/e and especially the new very good Unaware mons; Crunch chunks the dirge but nothing else hurts, nothing at all really hurts Dondozo, and Clod blanks anything except Psychic Fangs, so you're definitely gonna have 4MSS either way. Zamazenta doesn't really have this issue (other than skele) bc CC is a funny button that does funny damage and is a much better click than Play Rough. Zacian can also do it with tera fight but then you're just wasting your tera to use Zamazenta at home.
they're both ultra giga broken pre-dlc though, too bulky and too fast relative to our lack of (good) fighting resists. It'll be fun to try them tho and I look forward to making the inevitable zacian shill post at some point but I think for now both should end up in the Ubers list
goat opinions let this man in council
In the ideal world, there’s never an OU with both banned — we just ban the move at that point. The vote is to see how to proceed overall
Torn losing defog is pretty huge, I expect corv to still be very popular
Anihilape: horrible, ban. Having Zoroark-H isn't enough to make it manageable at all. Even in National Dex he is banned.
Last Respects: Ban. Female Basculegion will be a Rain Version of Dragapult Specs, it's may be cool.
Chi-yu: absolutely nothing new manages it. Ban
Chien-Pao: to retest in OU, it will probably be banned however. Even in Nat dex he is banned despite the powercreep
Espathra: ban while Tera remains intact, or Tera Preview Only
Flutter Mane: lmaoooooooooooooooooooooo, ban
Iron Bundle: banned
Landorus-I: lmao Nasty Plot, ban
Magearna: unchanged since 8g, ban
Palafin: Zapdos could be a good check in Palafin, but hey, ban
Regieleki: OU. I don't really see why it is proposed in the vote, admittedly it is banned in Nat Dex and will be broken with Téra Ice, but it has no precedent in 8G, and the reason for the "ban worthy" is entirely new. There is no reason to want the ban without testing it.
Spectrier: WTF he has Draining Kiss!!! Ban
Urshifu-S: Well it's fine to have his signature attack slightly nerfed, but if he has Swords Dance next to it...
Zamazenta-Hero: always difficult to decide on a legendary cover. It is perfectly legal in Nat Dex so it is tempting. Trying a very bulky pokemon that hits hard and is very fast seems absurd, but its movepool is very limited and its monotype not necessarily great, especially since the Flying type is back in force with HOME.
Zamazenta-Crowned: Uber, because Body Press. I will wait for meta stabilization and action on Tera to test it, however.
Regarding Tera, I would like a suspect to come forward after Regieleki's ban, and for Urshifu-Water, Sneasler and Enamorus to be watched closely. The first suspect intervened much too quickly, much too soon.
Last Respects: Ban. Female Basculegion will be a Rain Version of Dragapult Specs, it's may be cool.
Chi-yu: absolutely nothing new manages it. Ban
Chien-Pao: to retest in OU, it will probably be banned however. Even in Nat dex he is banned despite the powercreep
Espathra: ban while Tera remains intact, or Tera Preview Only
Flutter Mane: lmaoooooooooooooooooooooo, ban
Iron Bundle: banned
Landorus-I: lmao Nasty Plot, ban
Magearna: unchanged since 8g, ban
Palafin: Zapdos could be a good check in Palafin, but hey, ban
Regieleki: OU. I don't really see why it is proposed in the vote, admittedly it is banned in Nat Dex and will be broken with Téra Ice, but it has no precedent in 8G, and the reason for the "ban worthy" is entirely new. There is no reason to want the ban without testing it.
Spectrier: WTF he has Draining Kiss!!! Ban
Urshifu-S: Well it's fine to have his signature attack slightly nerfed, but if he has Swords Dance next to it...
Zamazenta-Hero: always difficult to decide on a legendary cover. It is perfectly legal in Nat Dex so it is tempting. Trying a very bulky pokemon that hits hard and is very fast seems absurd, but its movepool is very limited and its monotype not necessarily great, especially since the Flying type is back in force with HOME.
Zamazenta-Crowned: Uber, because Body Press. I will wait for meta stabilization and action on Tera to test it, however.
Regarding Tera, I would like a suspect to come forward after Regieleki's ban, and for Urshifu-Water, Sneasler and Enamorus to be watched closely. The first suspect intervened much too quickly, much too soon.
View attachment 517282
Only moves that the pokemon can learn in any of the gen 8 or gen 9 games carry over when transfered (some moves from BDSP are excluded)
This also seems to be universal functionality for any linked game and not just S&V (swords dance urshifu in gen 8
Source: https://www.pokemon.com/us/pokemon-...mon-scarlet-and-pokemon-violet-is-coming-soon
Now that this is brought up, don't most of the mons that learn that dumbass scald, toxic and knock off get them in gen seven? So, does that mean that if they're transferred over to SV, they don't get those three moves? If I understood this correctly, wouldn't this change also affect gen eight ou since everyone's most hated toxic spammers, Garchomp, Heatran and Landorus will also lose access to the move? Or am I mistaken because that did say "you will be able to change" which implies that the change is optional and we're getting this stupid scald and toxic this generation again?
And speaking of sd Urshifu in gen eight, imagine spikes Garchomp and draining kiss Spectrier in gen eight lol. It almost makes me wish we can use Spectrier in gen eight ou again. Almost
Yeah things like Lando-I, Flutter, Bundle, etc are 99% going to be OP, but I don't think day 1 bans are the answer.
We don't really know forsure what the meta could morph into.
AV mage can handle Flutter/Bundle, Lando-I can be technically revenged, and like you said Fin has to deal w Zapdos now.
Again, I highly doubt these mons stay OU, but we have an insane power creep and I'd like to at least test the boundaries of that.
Finch's list is basically the objectively correct list of mons that will most likely be banned eventually, but there could be some surprises.
Tera's variance issue aside, it's really the Tera into your own STAB that causes the other half of the issues.
Specs Flutter Sball is a 4hko vs an AV Mage, but turns into a 3hko if it Tera Ghosts.
The same issue was why Pao got banned. It turned band Crunch into a 2hko vs Don instead a 3hko without Tera Dark.
You'd be surprised at how some of these mons you find comically broken are actually just really strong and are pushed out of OU by Tera.
The part I'm sketchy about (read: coping) is that the wording technically only says moves that can be learned in Gen 8, but not specifically by that Pokemon, so it may be auto-pruning Dexited moves themselves (like Heal Block or Pursuit) rather than bothering to remove moves that exist in the Gen but just aren't learned by the Pokemon in that Gen's learnset.
As far as Gen 8 OU, I don't think it would change much (maybe get a "current transfer" ladder?) since the Pokemon can legally exist within the game, however roundabout the method or now locked out they are (look at how long Wish Chansey or Softboiled Clefable were kept legal despite the obscurity of actually obtaining things like those for Cart play), but I'm not on any Council or Policy squad so this is speculation rather than factual
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