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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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The top half of your screenshot proves my entire point while the bottom has nothing to do with anything. Come on now LMAO
My point is, if something like chien Pao can be retested, then why not espathra? With the increased viability of blissey, an increase of special walls and special attacking competition, AND the ban of espathra’s most powerful tool, shed tail, espathra looks like it could fit in post post-home meta.
jesus you’ve gone through like 3 different “points” now in an attempt at gotcha’ing finch. give it a rest & let us actually discuss the meta in the meta discussion thread.
I've been using Skeledirge on the team that broke me into 1500+ for the first time in OU and Skeledirge isn't "kind of shit into everything else": Skeledirge also deals with Sneasler and Zamazenta quite well barring Dire Claw hax, Tera Flying Acrobatics on the switch, and offensive Zamazenta getting the switch-in predict right:
252 Atk Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 98-116 (23.8 - 28.2%) -- 93.3% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Sneasler Shadow Claw vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 154-182 (37.4 - 44.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tera Flying Sneasler Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 180-213 (43.7 - 51.8%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 136-160 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 166-196 (40.3 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Zamazenta Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 206-244 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 248-292 (60.3 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Skeledirge also forces Enamorus into using Choice Specs or Expert Belt and getting the predict right, and it doesn't do too badly into Iron Valiant:
252 SpA Enamorus Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 69-81 (16.7 - 19.7%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
252 SpA Enamorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 176-208 (42.8 - 50.6%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Enamorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 211-250 (51.3 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Enamorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 262-310 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 127-150 (30.9 - 36.4%) -- 64.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 212-250 (51.5 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 144-170 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Valiant Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Skeledirge: 316-374 (76.8 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 144-170 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 214-254 (52 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The legends of Skeledirge forcing the Tera from Volcarona are also true:
252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 66-78 (16 - 18.9%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Tera Ground Volcarona Tera Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 234-276 (56.9 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 91-108 (29.2 - 34.7%) -- 6.3% chance to 3HKO
+1 8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 135-160 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 8 SpA Skeledirge Torch Song vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 180-213 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 91.4% chance to 2HKO
In terms of generic special walling, Skeledirge does fine and can deal with Nasty Plot Tornadus-T for you and doesn't do too badly into Thundurus-T, either:
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 138-163 (33.5 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 136-160 (33 - 38.9%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Thunder vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 169-199 (41.1 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 164-194 (39.9 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
If half or more of the opposing team is made of physical attackers and they don't have Heatran in the back, Will-O-Wisp is a pretty free click and I have been willing to use that move on Magearna just to pump Hex and scorch away Leftovers. (Ceruledge needs to run Shadow Claw just for Fire and Fighting resists like Skeledirge, Slowking, and Azumarill, so it's not as scary a Flash Fire mon.)
Skeledirge feels like a more predictable defensive Gholdengo that, however, makes progress more easily during the one turn my opponent spends switching a better answer into the defensive Ghost. Their resist profiles are fairly similar, with the biggest differences being that Skeledirge resists Fire, while Gholdengo is neutral to Water, resists Rock, and is immune to Poison. Skeledirge even manages to have better special bulk than Gholdengo. U-turn always puts a wrench into both their plans of making progress, but every defensive wall shares the pivot move problem.
(And, while I personally think of Tera as a forbidden fruit that flips around checks and sometimes counters too often for me to support it staying in OU, and Tera Preview will not solve this because the true pain of dealing with Tera is in the teambuilder since mons like Tera Water Garganacl and Tera Fairy Garganacl behave like different defensive Pokemon entirely, Tera Fairy Skeledirge suddenly deals with Chien-Pao much better.)
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increased viability of what now
edit: oh, the pokemon that straight-up loses to espathra unless it gets really good twave hax, okay
Dude, just take the L and move on good lord.
Bro who the FUCK is running non stall Blissey right now
People who have heal bell
Hey guys, just came here to bring some hope to everyone
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 90-107 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 255-300 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Iron Defense and Synthesis/Leech Seed/Drain Punch lefties, you can potentially stall out its stabs
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 182-216 (47.8 - 56.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch
- Iron Defense
- Leech Seed
this is literally corviknight level check for people like me who would rather not use corviknight
and that's basically it, see ya
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 90-107 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 255-300 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
With Iron Defense and Synthesis/Leech Seed/Drain Punch lefties, you can potentially stall out its stabs
252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 228+ Def Chesnaught: 182-216 (47.8 - 56.8%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO
Chesnaught @ Leftovers
Ability: Bulletproof
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Impish Nature
- Wood Hammer
- Drain Punch
- Iron Defense
- Leech Seed
this is literally corviknight level check for people like me who would rather not use corviknight
and that's basically it, see ya
Heal Bell is not enough to justify Blissey usage outside of stall in this current iteration of the meta. Heal Bell Seismic Toss Softboiled ur strapped to hell for a last slot, and no matter what u choose you still fail at beating specific good special attackers.
As time passes, the more obvious it is that Magearna is completely busted with or without screens. Starting to see a bigger variety of sets people are running to completely confound counters.
I think people are lying to themselves about how broken this thing is and are looking for skapegoats because they think it's really fun to use and because this tier lacks a solid, defensive fairy type presence like Clef to help stabilize the meta. But don't let yourself be fooled by the comforting feeling that brings, or high ELO players telling you it's something else, this thing is unbelievably broken and shouldn't be in OU.
I think people are lying to themselves about how broken this thing is and are looking for skapegoats because they think it's really fun to use and because this tier lacks a solid, defensive fairy type presence like Clef to help stabilize the meta. But don't let yourself be fooled by the comforting feeling that brings, or high ELO players telling you it's something else, this thing is unbelievably broken and shouldn't be in OU.
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I still find the Dirge will get overwhelmed if a team has tera ground Volc+Zama+Stored Power Mag. It’s just hard to keep up with everything. Ive been using Skeledirge a lot but there are a lot of match ups outside of screens where it ends up just being a sack.
Yes, the same happens with effect spore and relic song, that is why I don't understand why peopl want to change sleep clause because of dire claw.
Because Dire Claw is popular (viable if we wanna be nice to the haters)
Idk why people are arguing for a Dire Claw ban, isn’t it better to just ban Sneasler. During the Cinderace suspect, people wanted a Libero ban, and basically they said:
“We’re not gonna ban Cinderace + Libero, that’s dumb, that’s what banning Libero means”
and Light Clay
Sets like this are why it overpowered. You need to run a specific set that makes the Mon overall somewhat worse just to beat every set EXCEPT one. Having to heavily adapt a standard set just to not lose to most sets is inherently unhealthy for the meta.
Yeah, I've found that Skeledirge gets overloaded by multiple opposing mons on the same team that it's the best check for fairly often (e.g. I found Volcarona + Magearna + Sneasler on the same opposing team before, I think). The scary part is that a third of such opponents that overload Skeledirge force out mixed defensive Gholdengo. Figure that Stored Power Magearna tears out half of Skeledirge's health, Specs Magearna forces the Slack Off, and I have gotten bit by sleep hax from Sneasler before and Skeledirge falls sooner than I hope. (For the matter, I also sleep haxed a Lando-T who got 2HKOed by Dire Claw at that point and sleep haxed a Zamazenta, switched to Enamorus, and got her OHKOed by said Zamazenta because it/he woke up in time. Sleep is not quite as guaranteed a win button as you might think.)
I'm curious
I wonder why no one is talking about the "gimmick" of Fury Cutter Kleavor ?
Fury Cutter is bp 40
With terrastalisation, moves under 60bp up to 60bp (except for multi-hit and priority moves)
With terrastalisation type bug, fury cutter 60bp up to double-stabb 120
With sharpness 120bp up to 180 wich is equal to a stabb close combat ...
Then the second move is nearly doubled (no more up to 60 because base became 80, but 160 with tera then 240 with sharpness)
Then the third ...
This pokemon is particuliar .....
I wonder why no one is talking about the "gimmick" of Fury Cutter Kleavor ?
Fury Cutter is bp 40
With terrastalisation, moves under 60bp up to 60bp (except for multi-hit and priority moves)
With terrastalisation type bug, fury cutter 60bp up to double-stabb 120
With sharpness 120bp up to 180 wich is equal to a stabb close combat ...
Then the second move is nearly doubled (no more up to 60 because base became 80, but 160 with tera then 240 with sharpness)
Then the third ...
This pokemon is particuliar .....
Throw a metronome on that bad boy and you got a stew going!I'm curious
I wonder why no one is talking about the "gimmick" of Fury Cutter Kleavor ?
Fury Cutter is bp 40
With terrastalisation, moves under 60bp up to 60bp (except for multi-hit and priority moves)
With terrastalisation type bug, fury cutter 60bp up to double-stabb 120
With sharpness 120bp up to 180 wich is equal to a stabb close combat ...
Then the second move is nearly doubled (no more up to 60 because base became 80, but 160 with tera then 240 with sharpness)
Then the third ...
This pokemon is particuliar .....
And here I was thinking you could put multiple Pokémon asleep the way people were talking about it. If that’s the case I don’t really see what the big deal is.
It’s mainly that sleep clause is non-replicable on cart, which is especially obvious with dire claw (and to a lesser extent, effect spore and relic song). Allen clause has been grandfathered in to the “be as accurate to cart as possible” policy due to some precedence in older Pokémon games having sleep clause built in. The policy inconsistency is what people are mostly complaining about, dire claw just brought it to attention once again
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