Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[Vainness]

kingambit can't really get qbd, its a huge part of the tier, regardless of if its broken or not, and as lameflame put it, outright removing one of the best defensive pokemon in the tier that's also keeping some of the scariest mons in the tier in check (gholdengo and pult) isn't just something you can do on a friday afternoon with little forethought. If and when gambit gets suspected, it's going to massively change the landscape of the tier if it goes though, so the tier should be able to throw in their 2 cents, albeit hopefully with slightly adjusted requirements to vote

A major council member already posted two days ago about actively planning to quickban pult and dengo as well, as a package, just like almost everyone else who posted about banning the beetle. So the scenario you're speaking about isn't happening in the first place.

"outright removing one of the best defensive pokemon in the tier "

Absolutely insane that arguably the best sweeper in the tier is quoted as the best defensive pokemon at the same time yet there you are defending it being quickbanned.

 

[about15gals]

A major council member already posted two days ago about actively planning to quickban pult and dengo as well, as a package, just like almost everyone else who posted about banning the beetle. So the scenario you're speaking about isn't happening in the first place.

yes, because kingambit is the main thing keeping those pokemon in check, if kingambit doens't get banned there's likely no reason to even consider banning pult or ghold, if kingambit goes they all have to go

 

[Vainness]

yes, because kingambit is the main thing keeping those pokemon in check, if kingambit doens't get banned there's likely no reason to even consider banning pult or ghold, if kingambit goes they all have to go

If gambit doesn't get banned literally nothing goes and therefore the tier remains unchanged. Yet everyone is asking for changes especially after the Tera decision. Kingambit's ban is quite literally the CATALYST for changes, if it goes a lot of broken shit goes with it giving a fresh breath to the tier albeit the Tera decision, if it stays then literally nothing goes and everything stays unchanged.

Considering that it makes no sense to suspect it instead of an outright quickban.

 

[about15gals]

"outright removing one of the best defensive pokemon in the tier "

Arguably the best sweeper in the tier is quoted as the best defensive pokemon at the same time yet there you are defending it being quickbanned. Absolute insanity.

if all you needed to be a s tier sweeper in national dex was swords dance, sucker punch and decent bulk then this tier would look very different. A good majority of the reason why kingambit's so good is because it's got great bulk and defensive typing, as, rather notably, both of the pokemon that I just mentioned are unable to hit kingambit super effectively without packing coverage moves. Kingambit's able to keep them in check not only though sucker punch but its incredible bulk allowing it to switch in reliably multiple times throughout a match, finish them off and still be healthy enough to keep going and provide value in a match. While it may be one of the best cleaners in the tier, that doesn't mean it can't have immense defensive utility as well

 

[Vainness]

Also If the justification for pult being allowed is that kingambit keeps it in check then why the fuck megazam is banned?

The second can't even Tera to outplay suckerpunch.

A lot of broken logic in how this tier is handled.

 

[about15gals]

Also If the justification for pult being allowed is that kingambit keeps it in check then why the fuck megazam is banned?

The second can't even Tera to outplay suckerpunch.

A lot of broken logic in how this tier is handled.

mzam gets tools to hit gambit without using up resources, pult needs to run tera blast and also lose a moveslot in order to hit gambit sometimes, while mzam runs it because it's got open slots that it can just use to run focus blast

 

[Moyashi]

Cope

You should try and actually contribute something constructive to discussion. Lameflame had a very well articulated post, and even if I disagree with some of their points (mainly Kingambit being a necessary evil), they still put forth a good effort to get discussion going about how to move forward. You meanwhile have just kind of elected to engage in an almost passive aggressive way with some commenters, and haven't really done anything other than this.

On the subject of Kingambit, I briefly mentioned that I think it's an overbearing presence in a meta with terastilize and think it's deserving of a ban, but I'd like to slightly expand on it because it's the most important and dominant pokemon in the tier. It's a fantastic glue pokemon, both providing key defensive utility as well as a potent pursuit (perhaps the best pursuit user ever), and it helps force progress with knock off sets that keep even sturdy walls from being too immortal. It helps play around two huge pokemon, Dragapult and Gholdengo, both are both very important and defining pokemon in the tier, the former for its superb offensive profile that sets speed tiers, and the latter for its unique defensive/offensive profile thanks to Good as Gold. Both have to account for Kingambit when loaded in builder and in battle as careless/greedy plays can easily lead to their being trapped and removed. They also influence building highly as well... Which brings me back to Kingambit.

Yes it helps play around these, and other pokemon. Yes it brings positives to the tier. But it also has an uncanny ability to facility late game reverse sweeps in a consistency that is disturbing, and it isn't terribly difficult either. Whether with tera dark it cleaves bulky neutral targets after an SD, sometimes even offensive resists. The ease of this, and the mindgames, Gambit vs Gambit mirrors too, all make me feel like the centralizing nature of Gambit, and it's power, is simply too much. I have to respectfully disagree about it being a necessary evil, because I feel like this mentality can lead to a "broken checks broken" kind of metagame which isn't exactly a desirable state to be in.

Kingambit should definitely be priority number one, but pokemon like Dragapult should be monitored closely as well, especially if something happens and Gambit leaves the tier. Stuff like Sneasler also are worth keeping an eye on because it feels like a very volatile sweeper that tera enables to break would be checks, and sometimes it's just hoping it isn't running a certain tera type I'm weak to.

 

[Nish the Great]

Funny how whoever is moderating likes to pick their message to delete. I'd just assume it's newcomers treatment.

Wow, I wonder why the post claiming that qualified voters weren’t actually qualified and also blaming this on an entire country for some reason got banned… really blows my mind

 

[Ryuji]

small post abt my thoughts on the tier rn:
to me this tier isn't beyond repair but. to be fixed you'll need to ban a shit ton of mon to make it actually work: for example its no secret that Kingambit is an awful mon and needs to be banned, and its also no secret the mon is a staple of the tier, as its able to patch/soft check a lot of mon. While this shld never be taken in account in tiering policy (ie: the mon checking stuff and therefore needs to stay), its interesting to theorycraft how the meta will evolve. If kingambit gets banned obviously Dragapult will follow, Gholdengo might asw, and if these 2 ends up getting banned, what cld follow? a good guess wld be the following: you lose arguably 2 of the best fighting check in the tier, so certain borderline fighting will rise and overcentralize the meta, such as Zamazenta/Urshifu in dragapult's case and Sneasler/Valiant in ghold case, Sneasler being already way too centralizing.
Also, despite Gambit being able to reverse a 6v1 situation and rewarding "bad" plays in a way thx to Supreme Overlord, its also an insanely good anti-cheese, as its bulky enough to easily trade and give you sort of a joker card. I can't wait to see Latios stored cm being back and this time without the need of carrying aura sphere kek.
Maybe saying the tier is doomed isnt really true. Reality is that its extremely depressing to see the results of this vote, esp after reading certain posts in a certain social media. And its even more depressing to have that many bans not because the mon are necessarily broken on their own but bc of tera (ie: roaring moon, shedinja, wake, luna, melmetal, regieleki, crowned zama, to an extend spectrier, espathra, and ape. not saying some of them wldnt be broken without tera, more that tera is the main reason of why these are banned)
anw on what shld follow, Gambit / Pult / Sneasler will obviously go, wether by suspect or quickban slate. Id be honesly more in favor of the later. As for the after, ig Ghold will most likely follow, w maybe Valiant and Shifu asw, and then we'll see how the meta can evolve. Maybe other stored power dumb mon will be banned, the infamous weakness policy latios for example, or even the move itself. Unbanning stuff isnt really planned rn for obv reasons, tier needs to be settled before.
and thats abt it

 

[Steorra]

Funny how whoever is moderating likes to pick their message to delete. I'd just assume it's newcomers treatment.

there's a difference between asking a question and blaming a country on the result of the suspect. we dont really want to tolerate the latter in particular and Its not that hard to be constructive with your arguments

overall i dont want to see anything on china brought up anymore, any further posts on it will be deleted and possibly infracted.

 

[Payasiko]

I would like to give my point of view on the matter of terastallization. I have seen doomerposting about the end of the tier, and I believe that sentiment has been fueled by the decisions made since the initial tera test. In my opinion, the council's actions have been aimed at forcing a second test rather than improving the tier itself. Now everyone seems to clearly see that Gambit is too powerful, and that banning Gambit would cause a domino effect that would require banning Pult, then Dengo, and finally Zama. Wasn't this known four months ago? So why was Zama evaluated when player surveys indicated that there were other more problematic mons? Then Ape was quickbanned (for those who argue that Gambit cannot be quickbanned) with virtually the same score as Gambit, which wasn't even tested. Later, with the release of HOME, the council quickbanned Ursaluna instead of Sneasler. Decisions were being made, but those decisions did not contribute to balancing the meta but rather created a feeling of overwhelm until people began to massively demand a retesting of tera. And now what? Will measures be taken to move forward, or will a third test be sought? I understand that council members may feel uncomfortable with the voting results, but we must be fair and try to move forward for the good of everyone.

That being said, I would like to invite reflection. In this tier, we are slaves to very inflexible Smogon rules that should not be applied so strictly in this case. The problem of terastallization would have been solved in a balanced manner if it was tied to an item for terastallizing. Most tera-abusers rely on their items, and if we equate tera to z-moves and megas, its effect would be moderated. To terastallize, a mon couldn't carry a choice item (solving the stacking effect of tera stab on mons like Barra, Float, Zama, Shifu...), nor HDB (Volcarona or Dragonite would be vulnerable to rocks), nor focus sash (Polteageist), nor seeds (goodbye unburden Sneasler), nor covert cloak (Mew and Cress), nor WP (Latios), nor toxic orb (Gliscor)... In this way, the number of tera users would be indirectly limited to one or two per team, they would be easier to scout, creativity would be maintained (no spoilers on preview), and it would still be useful for mons that can do without items, like Valiant, Tusk, Heatran, etc. This is not an official tier, this metagame cannot be played in official games, and the mechanics are not intended to interfere with each other. The rules of allowed moves and items are arbitrary and should be subject to change if the community agrees. Let's not be slaves to our own rules and appeal to common sense and logic.

 

[Kyo]

That being said, I would like to invite reflection. In this tier, we are slaves to very inflexible Smogon rules that should not be applied so strictly in this case. The problem of terastallization would have been solved in a balanced manner if it was tied to an item for terastallizing. Most tera-abusers rely on their items, and if we equate tera to z-moves and megas, its effect would be moderated. To terastallize, a mon couldn't carry a choice item (solving the stacking effect of tera stab on mons like Barra, Float, Zama, Shifu...), nor HDB (Volcarona or Dragonite would be vulnerable to rocks), nor focus sash (Polteageist), nor seeds (goodbye unburden Sneasler), nor covert cloak (Mew and Cress), nor WP (Latios), nor toxic orb (Gliscor)... In this way, the number of tera users would be indirectly limited to one or two per team, they would be easier to scout, creativity would be maintained (no spoilers on preview), and it would still be useful for mons that can do without items, like Valiant, Tusk, Heatran, etc. This is not an official tier, this metagame cannot be played in official games, and the mechanics are not intended to interfere with each other. The rules of allowed moves and items are arbitrary and should be subject to change if the community agrees. Let's not be slaves to our own rules and appeal to common sense and logic.

Creating a hypothetical held item to represent Tera is not up for discussion. While it is true that National Dex is not replicable on cartridge, we knew that from the inception of the tier as we are allowing mons that straight up don’t exist in the current generation. I don’t want this to be used as a jumping off point to justify creating any number of new mechanics when we have other more straightforward options to balance the tier. Our goal should be to stick as close to official mechanics as possible and only when there are interactions that we have no precedent for we fill in the gaps (i.e. disallowing Tera to be used alongside Z moves and megas). We already know that Tera can be used with a held item and thus the mechanic should remain that way.

Smogon formats in general are not properly playable on cartridge. For a particularly relevant example, just look at any tier with sleep clause which is most of them. Spamming spore against a sleeping opponent causes the move to fail and will also fail if the opponent switches to another mon. This is a perfectly viable and common sequence of plays when you’re trying to reset sleep turns on your opponent immediately after their mon wakes up. Doing this in a cartridge game would cause you to instantly forfeit the match if your opponent switches and a second mon is put to sleep. This is just one example but there are quite a few where showdown and cartridge play do not line up. Inconsistencies like these exist mostly out of necessity and we should try to avoid introducing more whenever possible. Considering we have other options to deal with Tera’s impact on the tier, I think we should stick to those.

 

[sh0shin]

Also If the justification for pult being allowed is that kingambit keeps it in check then why the fuck megazam is banned?

The second can't even Tera to outplay suckerpunch.

A lot of broken logic in how this tier is handled.

people would just run terrain extender lele + eject button pivot lol

 

[Kidd Birds]

I couldn't tell you exactly why these tiers have a ladder on PS, but if I am not mistaken gen6 is the most popular pure hackmon gen (I believe it also is the only gen that forces an EVs cap in this format), JolteMons is literally the only ladder the PetMod community has on PS, and every gen gets a randbats ladder. I don't know anything about DPP Doubles but I imagine it wasn't put there randomly, especially since it is one of the metagames featured in the upcoming Derby tournament, which aims to develop lesser seen doubles tiers. If you dig around for any ladder on this website I'm sure you can find out why these exist.

I also personally believe it would be an horrible timing to open a non tera ladder: NatDex is already going through difficult times right now, and even though I generally dislike the "community splitting" argument when arguing about creating new metagames, in this specific case I'd be extremely reluctant to do that. It also sets a really dangerous precedent: are we really going to create new ladders every time a suspect decision doesn't go our way? We told pro-dyna people to cope last gen when that mechanic got banned, and now it is our turn.

You still are free to play with your own rules with other people, like every other natdex other tiers did when they started, but in the current state of things I'm am completely against giving support to a teraless natdex format right now, as my current priority is to keep the tier afloat despite the doomer atmosphere going on right now. I might be more favorable to the idea in the future once things settled down, but not now.

Personally, I can see both sides of this argument. On one hand with the meta in the place it is currently, letting National Dex get divided in half before we even begin taking proper tiering action on a Tera-filled metagame is a horrible, impulsive, and frankly kind of childish decision. However, from a competitive perspective, I have a hard time imagining the higher level of players being enthusiastic about upcoming play.

Considering a lot of pro-Tera players believe that the primary reason it should stay is because "it's fun" rather than "it's unhealthy and uncompetitive," Tournaments should have some sort of restriction, such as Tera captains, TTP, or another alternative that I couldn't think of cause its 3:12 AM where I live rn. To go with that a ladder for practice in such a meta would be very productive, albeit unnecessary since you could be practicing your higher-level teams with higher-level players and probably learn more anyway, instead of a place where someone might bring FEAR Aron because they really like its blue eyes.

At the very least, I think the higher-ups who decide what gets to be a ladder should discuss the idea and its possible ramifications on both the present National Dex Tiers and the actual competitive scene going forward.

P.S. Quickban Gambit, Ban Stored Power, Suspect everything else.

 

[adem]

short post because i am lazy and jetlagged but

im ngl i do not think we will have any semblance of an improved meta if we quickban / suspect test (i am confident this will result in a ban) gambit. the mon is holding together the tier and with it gone will result in a very annoying domino effect thatll remove a large part of natdex’s identity: the variance of the tier and the options we have to use, and frankly will make the meta much less fun. i know fun is not a real argument but hey thats what was used to keep this mechanic, so fair game, but if we want to still play an enjoyable meta banning the tiers number one flex tape mon is not the way, and would both ruin the building and playing experience.

i also think keeping everything the way it is is the best way to go forward (minus maybe cress ban ill talk about next para, idrc if that goes or not), and that you cannot pick and choose any specific mon to want to nuke going forward since all of them equally have big issues.

i think banning spower is also mega cope, theres like 1 mon that has had much success in it in recent times and thats cress, latios has had like 2 games ever of being cool and mew also only had one shining moment and was just bleh cp cheese which a lot of mons would have done that game regardless. spower has never been broken, cress i can understand people being mad about it so nuke it idrc, everything else is just super fishy cheese which has existed since the dawn of time.

free moon and bear too, mickey bans

tldr dont ban gambit, dont ban anything else, dont ban spower ban cress (if u want), free moon and bear

 

[Joseph Gomes]

short post because i am lazy and jetlagged but

im ngl i do not think we will have any semblance of an improved meta if we quickban / suspect test (i am confident this will result in a ban) gambit. the mon is holding together the tier and with it gone will result in a very annoying domino effect thatll remove a large part of natdex’s identity: the variance of the tier and the options we have to use, and frankly will make the meta much less fun. i know fun is not a real argument but hey thats what was used to keep this mechanic, so fair game, but if we want to still play an enjoyable meta banning the tiers number one flex tape mon is not the way, and would both ruin the building and playing experience.

i also think keeping everything the way it is is the best way to go forward (minus maybe cress ban ill talk about next para, idrc if that goes or not), and that you cannot pick and choose any specific mon to want to nuke going forward since all of them equally have big issues.

i think banning spower is also mega cope, theres like 1 mon that has had much success in it in recent times and thats cress, latios has had like 2 games ever of being cool and mew also only had one shining moment and was just bleh cp cheese which a lot of mons would have done that game regardless. spower has never been broken, cress i can understand people being mad about it so nuke it idrc, everything else is just super fishy cheese which has existed since the dawn of time.

free moon and bear too, mickey bans

tldr dont ban gambit, dont ban anything else, dont ban spower ban cress (if u want), free moon and bear

I would agree with this. Banning dozens of mons will kill Natdex eventually. If the bans start, they will never stop. As we now have to live with tera, we should also try to keep around mons like Gambit, and unban mons like Moon and Ursaluna (who are not broken in OU)

Banning Kingambit/Dragapult would just be self-fulfilling prophecy of killing the tier. We won't have much of Natdex if 20+ popular mons get banned, players won't be happy if most of their favorites get banned.

I hope the anti-ban proposal is taken into consideration, along with a change of philosophy regarding the format's tiering

 

[about15gals]

I would agree with this. Banning dozens of mons will kill Natdex eventually. If the bans start, they will never stop. As we now have to live with tera, we should also try to keep around mons like Gambit, and unban mons like Moon and Ursaluna (who are not broken in OU)

Banning Kingambit/Dragapult would just be self-fulfilling prophecy of killing the tier. We won't have much of Natdex if 20+ popular mons get banned, players won't be happy if most of their favorites get banned.

I hope the anti-ban proposal is taken into consideration, along with a change of philosophy regarding the format's tiering

agree with a good portion of this, but we just cannot unban moon and luna right now, the tier's already offensively powercrept to shit, which is in no small part due to tera, and the last thing we need right now are more super threatening sweepers in the tier

 

[Oculars]

Banning Kingambit/Dragapult would just be self-fulfilling prophecy of killing the tier. We won't have much of Natdex if 20+ popular mons get banned, players won't be happy if most of their favorites get banned.

I hope the anti-ban proposal is taken into consideration, along with a change of philosophy regarding the format's tiering

keeping broken stuff because its popular or someones favourite or "fun" is the worst possible way to do tiering as we all saw with the tera vote, bottom line is the current meta right now is incredibly unbalanced and over centralized around gambit, pult and ghol. Clearing out 20 mons over a few ban waves is still way better than keeping a super uncompetitive tier patched together around a few interactions, the fact that banning one or two mons makes people think well have to ban 17-18 more goes to show just how overcentralizing these mons are and why they have to go.

 

[Ryuji]

Going to echo the previous post but indeed banning something because it holds the tier is an awful way to tier stuff, especially if you intend to release even dumber mons onto the tier. As I stated in my previous post obviously banning Gambit means banning potentially several mons but that's an necessary evil, and I don't need to remind you guys how fucked it is to see a Gambit with the right tera completely reverse sweep a game from nowhere just because Supreme Overlord. The fact even Great Tusk who's supposedly its best check can actually lose from full against it with the right set just proves this Pokemon can't stay in a Tera Economy, and that's about it. When it comes to tiering actions, a mon should only be judged on how unbalanced it is, and that includes how it can invalidate certain mons/playstyle by just existing. On the Kingambit question; the tier literally is similar to SV OU, you need one if not two or three ways to deal with it, and you also need to accept sometimes it won't work because of Tera. That's just how absurd the mon is, and even if it keeps in check people from using idk Specs DM Latios, i'd rather have it banned and find a way around Latios (just an example) than keep playing unfair mindgames that don't even reward the best player in-game wise (referring to dumb sucker punch 50-50)
If there's other mon to ban then they will eventually get banned, as the tier needs to evolve anyway. I'll just say, the tier should be locked for NDLT POff if the next bans are done with a slate instead of a suspect test and if the results are positive for a gambit ban.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

keeping broken stuff because its popular or someones favourite or "fun" is the worst possible way to do tiering as we all saw with the tera vote, bottom line is the current meta right now is incredibly unbalanced and over centralized around gambit, pult and ghol. Clearing out 20 mons over a few ban waves is still way better than keeping a super uncompetitive tier patched together around a few interactions, the fact that banning one or two mons makes people think well have to ban 17-18 more goes to show just how overcentralizing these mons are and why they have to go.

This isn't about fun, this is about keeping the tier alive. Natdex will never be balanced as long as tera around. It won't necessarily stop at 20, there will always be new broken tera user that's currently low-key because it's outclassed.

If most of the current top mons get banned, interest in Natdex will wane considerably. All of this could be avoided if Tera was banned instead, but here we are.

 

[about15gals]

This isn't about fun, this is about keeping the tier alive. Natdex will never be balanced as long as tera around. It won't necessarily stop at 20, there will always be new broken tera user that's currently low-key because it's outclassed.

If most of the current top mons get banned, interest in Natdex will wane considerably. All of this could be avoided if Tera was banned instead, but here we are.

nah, main draw of natdex as a tier is the zmoves, the megas and the removed move options. first 2 are not changed in basically any way by banning tera abusers. while banning 20 mons sucks ass considerably, it's also currently the only option out there, kingambit ghold and pult have almost completely warped the metagame around them, as about 70% of teams it feels have at least one on them, while we can't ban every tera abuser at least we can ban the most egregious of the bunch, which right now is gambit pult and ghold

It's not much but its a start and a step in the right direction

 

[Runo]

This isn't about fun, this is about keeping the tier alive. Natdex will never be balanced as long as tera around. It won't necessarily stop at 20, there will always be new broken tera user that's currently low-key because it's outclassed.

I believe a tier like SV UU (pre-home) is pretty balanced and fun with Tera in the picture, and I believe that NatDex can get to that same point as well, even with an expanded dex. But its not gonna get there on its own and keeping the status quo because you fear instability is just denying potential progress we could be making. New threats popping up to fill the power vacuum is a given, but saying that every single sweeper that abuses tera is going to be broken is definitely a reach. With time and effort we can get a balanced and fun tier, but we can't ever get that if people are constantly going to be negative at any idea of tiering action.

"If most of the current top mons get banned, interest in Natdex will wane considerably"

Do you really think that preserving a broken mon is going to draw in new players, or even keep the ones we have already? Because I don't.

Interest in NatDex is already waning because of how overcentralized and unbalanced the current metagame is. Personally I find building in this tier to be kinda boring and repetitive, and playing the tier is just straight up miserable to me for those same reasons. But also because Kingambit has a chokehold on this metagame and it is not balanced with Tera at all, it needs to be banned along with Dragapult and Gholdengo. I am fully aware of the ripple effects a ban like Kingambit's will cause, but the future of the metagame is something I rarely take into account when I want something banned (this is why I hate to see arguments that are basically saying broken checks broken). If Kingambit getting banned is going to result in a future metagame being filled with broken mons, were those mons even balanced to begin with? In fact, why should I care about a future metagame full of unknowns at all when the present metagame has glaring issues? I don't care if we get a potentially worse metagame for a bit or that we have to ban a ton of mons because the current metagame is already a shit show.

 

[Vladimir Capuchin]

Kingambit is in an awkward position in the meta. It's undeniably the best mon in the tier, but it has counterplay such as volcarona and unaware mons. The other counters and checks are less consistent, and terastallizing into flying (who would have thought) is almost inevitable and despite this being blatantly obvious, kingambit relies on full checks and counters or surprise counters (tera fighting blast pult.) Gambit is undeniably broken, right? Right? RIGHT?

Not exactly.

Despite the negative implications of Kingambit, it's a mon with counters, and if you predict it right, it can be removed. But this still makes it a mon that is broken, albeit SOMEWHAT skill-based. But the reason Kingambit isn't quickbanned yet or deserves one, is because it also functions as glue. This has other sets other than swords dance, which prevents gholdengo from getting out of hand, and the swords dance set is stopping devastating forces such as cresselia and dragapult from becoming too problematic.

So, the position here is similar to that of gen 8 Kyurem. I don't want to see it quickbanned, I think a gambit ban would be better in general, but even with that being said, a suspect test for it would allow it to be more fairly viewed for the sake of balance, as kingambit isn't unstoppable, it's still very toxic for the meta, but at the same time, it's the glue holding the meta together.


AND ALSO IF YOU'RE GOING TO GIVE ESPATHRA OF ALL MONS A SUSPECT, THEN QBING KINGAMBIT IS OUT OF THE PICTURE.

*sorry*

anyways

 

[Oculars]

Kingambit is in an awkward position in the meta. It's undeniably the best mon in the tier, but it has counterplay such as volcarona and unaware mons.

Volc is in no way a gambit counter
252+ Atk Tera Dark Kingambit Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 340-400 (109.3 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 306-361 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
even bulky volc dies to one sucker

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 176 Def Volcarona: 348-411 (93.2 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

and cant kill it back in one flamethrower

as for unaware mons they all lose except dondozo which is barely a mon but also loses to tera dark gambit long term especially if it gets its boots knocked off the first time it comes in and now has to deal with hazards .

 

[Oculars]

Also can someone please explain to me why in gen8 national dex we had a suspect test for mega metagross and voted Do Not Ban
may 25th, 2020 as shown by this post here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...-computer-mega-metagross.3663780/post-8478591

and then only a month and a half later on july 4th, 2020, we quickbanned it anyways invalidating the results of the suspect we had started only two months earlier as shown here:

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...u-s-are-now-banned-from-national-dex.3666855/

If this was allowed to happen why is it that I keep hearing we cant do the same thing with tera? If its fine to invalidate the results of a suspect using a quickban only a month and a half after why is it not being considered here?