No I'm saying that if the metagame doesn't change (ie get in your sweeper in, press setup move+tera to avoid weakness, proceed to sweep) even with the inclusion of new toys from the DLC, then I might have to switch my views from Pro-Tera (Ban Blast it is overkill) to anti-tera because it punishes mistakes too hard and allows you to get free turns.
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Metagame Terastallization Tiering Discussion, Part II [CLOSED FOR DLC]
- Thread starter Finchinator
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moving to tera thread so the normal one doesn't get derailed again
i agree that tera needs restrictions. a majority of the playerbase agrees, and if a suspect is ever held i can almost guarantee that we'll end up with tera preview this time. but the fact that lower tiers are far more stable relative to ou proves that tera is not the problem behind why ou is the way that it is. if tera was truly a meta-breaking nightmare mechanic, it would be fucking up every tier, not just one specifically.
OU will by definition have the most powerful Pokemon (that don't get sent to Ubers) who will get the most out of any free turn or move. It's natural that tiers with less explosive Pokemon will be less volatile.
Not really? Moves/mechanics that are unhealthy in OU aren't necessarily unhealthy in lower tiers, and that doesn't matter. Did we see baton pass chains rocking NU's meta? No, and that doesn't change the fact that a baton pass ban in OU was necessary.
Tera is a mechanic that makes strong pokemon even stronger, so it's going to be more unhealthy the higher the power level is. You can see this reflected in people's opinions on tera in OU (lower power level) when comparing it to people's opinions on tera in natdex (higher power level). It's much more chaotic and unhealthy in that tier because there's already so much to consider, tera increases that exponentially. Meanwhile, if you go back down to SV NU, there's much less to prepare for and a lower power level overall, so tera will be relatively stable.
Also let's not act like tera is completely innocent in lower tiers. It's a major factor why mons like jolteon (tera ice), oricorio (there's a lot), and dudunsparce (tera poinson/fairy) get quickbanned from NU. Even they need to clean up their tier because tera abusers get out of control.
Let's not ignore the full story here.
Take a look at the natdex surveys. Tera narrowly avoided a full ban twice, and it was constantly rated as a problematic part of the tier.
Take a look at the enjoyment+balance scores before and after the tera suspect: enjoyment-6.38 / balance-5.21 before and enjoyment-6.03 / balance-4.92 after, which is a significant drop off from already poor scores.
Ultimately, getting reqs to vote for that test was incredibly easy (I would know), and that meant the test was easy to influence. I don't have a great solution to prevent that from happening in the future because I think that suspect tests should be as accessible as possible (and anybody who can get reqs should be able to vote, regardless of their "agendas") But let's not act like tera was beloved by the natdex community bc it scraped by. Read through the natdex tera discussion threads and suspect threads. By and large, they hated it and they still do, for good reason.
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Yeah, but the absolute power disparity isn't that different. They're just not engaged in a struggle between the old school of thought (bans being a last resort) and the new (bans are a required part of dealing with Gamefreak's design decisions). It's completely normal to send things up from UU (and especially lower tiers) just because they have the wrong vibe.
I've never really agreed with the argument that "we're banning too many things", but increasingly, I at least understand it. It stems from an era when Gamefreak wasn't dropping nearly 2 dozen 570+ BST mons into a new tier and letting God sort it out. And that doesn't even capture the full scope of the problem, because Annihilape, Espathra, Kingambit and Garganacl are (mostly) just regular mons!
So i mean, yeah. Sure. Tera is definitely having an effect on the format. But Gen 9 having more new legendary-BST mons than the first 3 gens did, combined, means that it was always going to be a herculean effort to get the format into a balanced state.
...and then they started shadow-dropping things like Walking Wake into the tier. God help us.
There's certainly a chance that banning Tera might make things appreciably better, but as long as the specter of "older formats never needed to ban things" looms overhead, we'll all continue to suffer.
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I don’t think tera will be banned, and I don’t think tera preview will win out on a vote. If anyone wants something to be done, the only real chance of change is doing a tera blast test, and I think that should be done as soon as possible because the constant tera debate is becoming a rather large distraction. Any other test is going to just waste time at this point.
Now would be a perfect time to test it since we can unban Espathra, Volcarona, and Regieleki when DLC 1 drops.
tera preview blew every other option out of the water last time. if the two options were to go head-to-head, i have no doubt that tera preview would win over tera blast ban
Read the Policy Review thread, where a couple of top players gave very strong (and very highly upvoted) explanations why they feel tera preview is a net negative. Support for that proposal dropped a fair bit as a result.
wow, the people who are best at the guessing game want it to remain a guessing game. who coulda thunk it
Tera preview doesn't make it less of a guessing game. I'd take Alternator's advice and actually read posts of those top players so you can actually see what they're saying. Puts things into perspective
What I'm saying is exactly what you mention "(ie get in your sweeper in, press setup move+tera to avoid weakness, proceed to sweep)" is exactly why it will not change.
The mechanic promotes doing this and unless we were to get significantly better defensive options against it or some a way to mitigate the offensive profile of the mechanic you will get more of the same.
Preview literally creates even more guessing games.
"revealing information somehow doesn't give you any more information. source: the people most likely to have a personal agenda against any change whatsoever"
i read the posts and the arguments are all the same—weak, overly speculative, and debunked several times over in this very thread
without preview, every turn you have to factor in 19 potential tera-related options your opponent can take: no tera, tera normal, tera fire, tera water, tera grass, etc. with preview, you only have to factor in 2: tera or no tera. you just told me with a straight face that 2 is more than 19 and this is the narrative i'm supposed to believe
If all you can do is make baseless conspiracy theory posts like this, probably don't bother. It looks ridiculous.
Somehow I doubt you did, given the posts by those top players were well constructed and actually highlights the issues with Tera preview.
Also rich of you to accuse their arguments of being overly speculative when Tera preview arguments are also highly speculative at best. And no, their posts weren't debunked. Try again.
Knowing what type they are doesn't solve the issue and just induces new mindgames: do they Tera or not, should I click x move expecting tera?
It's not just about considering the 2 types vs 19. Like Moyashi points out preview creates entirely new mindgames that you will have to consider essentially every turn. It also changes the mental game a lot.
those mindgames already exist, to a far greater degree than what you two are describing, and i know you're both fully aware of this. please don't insult the intelligence of everyone in the thread like this
Nearly everyone who I've seen support tera preview from the last vote no longer supports it as an option - the opinions have changed drastically and while of course anything can "happen" in a vote, it seems pretty clear to me that it will not win based on what I've seen and heard. For you to say "no doubt" is kinda silly since there is plenty of doubt, and if these types of posts keep brushing aside the possibility of testing Tera Blast, then, to me, there is nearly "no doubt" that no change will happen and tera will remain fully untouched because most people do not want any compromise that does not suit them. If anyone actually wants some sort of tiering to happen with tera, then push for a tera blast test. Otherwise enjoy the status quo.
Kind of agree here. as a prior tera preview supporter, I will say that it on paper makes sense but it does take a big portion of skill out when you know all the tera types. You can play the format using PS by entering a specific challenge code but it removes a lot of the fun out and the skill. I don't think Tera Preview is the worst option but I am pretty firm on if we do go with a restriction it will be to ban Tera Blast.
i've played the format. i've also played with an informal ban on tera blast and with tera clause. out of what i've played, i think tera preview is the closest we have to something enjoyable and balanced, but i can't properly tell because of fucking kingambit ruining everything
You been saying this fir a long time now, even though quite a few bans in all of the main stream tiers have Terastillization as a major aspect of why said Pokémon had to be banned from their metagame.
Calyrex-Shadow is self explanatory.
Iron Hands and Hisuian Lilligant were already borderline offensive Pokémon, and thus could be argued that they may be worth banning regardless, but their ability to run different viable Tera Blast options to break the few genuinely solid forms of counterplay that existed in the tier + the nature of giving essentially free turns via Tera to potent set up sweepers such as them is a major reason why they ultimately had to go.
Gyarados was noted by the RU playerbase to be more Tera reliant than the average set up sweeper in the tier, never the less when it did Tera it was so rewarding that it simply could not be ignored. From Tera Flying to Tera Fairy to other more Niche options, Gyarados could bypass walls and the like that may more comfortably check its coverage options. Iron Leaves is another example, taking its painfully exploitative typing that helped keep itbin check in regards to priority and counterplay and flips it on its head, limiting what revenge kills it and what it could break. Mew's Nasty Plot Tera Fairy Draining Kiss set and it's suicide lead set (bolstered by the above Tera sweepers) were what led to it being banned from the meta, since the former was near impossible to take down and wall after a Nasty Plot or Two and the latter for more obvious reasons. Polteageist ofc was Toxic for its obnoxious Tera Fighting sets giving it super coverage to break the one type designed to counter it.
I'll bunch all of the Oricorios together since all of them have been banned from a lower tier at some point. These are the textbook definition of Tera granting STAB coverage to Pokémon not designed to have them. All these birds use Tera to flip the effectiveness of their counterplay while gaining the coverage necessary to eliminate the few natural checks to their STAB coverage. Its yhat limited counterplay that pushed them over the edge. Jolteon is another example, give it the means to break Grounds and it's no longer the mediocre mono STAB noobbait Electric pivot it's famously known as, it's a Calm Mind super sweeper with unwallable BoltBeam STAB. Dudunsparce is in a similar boat, using Tera to flip its defensive mat hips and turning a strong but ma.agable sweeper into something that is extremely difficult to find consistent answers to. Players have noted Tera Poison and Tera Fairy as strong tools in its kit to help it bypass normal means of lower tier counterplay.
Lilligant is similar to this, a Pokémon normally balanced by its abysmal coverage options and mediocre STAB gets banned when it gets the ability to remedy these issues. Apparently Lilligant was a cluster fuck of Tera options picking and choosing what counted as a check the more the metagame developed.
This isn't observations I gathered from long term Exposure to these tiers, all of this I picked up from skimming te appropriate threads in a couple minutes. So who knows what's currently fucking up lower tiers rn thanks to their access. Apparently Moltres-Galar is up next for a Tera based ban, and I know previous iterations of SVUU Hydreigon was banned cuz Tera Steel was apparently unstoppable. I've seen you use this argument about lower tiers multiple times to defend Tera, and it's gotten annoying at this point because it's not only irrelevant with how OU handles tiering, it's just not true, and any passing familiarity with how any of these metagames work would have told you that.
They do already but they aren't being considered like how they would be if preview is enforced. You can't predict 1 of 19 types every turn so you won't try or attempt to think that way. With preview enabled you have to evaluate your choices more every turn. I've played it as well and I'm not a fan of the kind of meta it creates.
You can also play a bunch of mind games straight from the builder with this as a result. Preview only partially solves a problem and creates others.
so preview is bad because it… forces you to think about things you should have already been thinking about?
You can try to oversimplify it all you want. Tera preview doesn't fix the issue.
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