Unpopular opinions

[Cobalt Empoleon]

So, this is a subject someone raised to me, and I was curious what people here thought - Do Hazards need to be nerfed?

Like, it's kinda hard to deny how much hazards have shaped competitive Pokemon at this point. Teambuilding at this point is shaped around the mechanic, how it can be set, how it can be removed, and how you can avoid the dreaded damage caused by Stealth Rocks. It has only intensified with Gen IX, where a number of factors have made the mechanic a huge reason for the current misery endured in the meta, to where even something as innocuous as Ribombee is now subject to hate.

So the question is, should Hazards be significantly nerfed in some fashion, such as having them be temporary much like Weather, Terrain, and Screens are? Or should it just have the removal options expanded so that it acts as a less dominating mechanic? Curious what people think.

It's hard to think of a change that strikes the appropriate balance without being cumbersome to convey to the player. A five-turn clock would be interesting; my only criticism is that I think it'd make them even less appealing to use in-game. No team preview + healing items + virtually no AI switching means you're probably only gonna get one or two instances of hazard chip per use of the move (assuming the Pokemon that come out are even affected by your hazards of choice), unless you're steamrolling through the opponent's team anyway.

Maybe they could be buffed in terms of damage/effect in exchange for disappearing after a single switch-in (or disappearing layer by layer in the case of Spikes/Toxic Spikes)? Of course, that just raises several more questions about exactly how much stronger they should be to compensate haha. What I like about this idea is that it makes them more viable in VGC Doubles but weaker in Singles.

 

[CPU]

1. In Generation 5 OU, some Dragon-Types were literally using only one Attacking move: Outrage, and succeeding.

You had sets like Outrage, Dragon Dance, Roost, Substitute, succeed and sweeping great teams. That's insane. No coverage necessary. Ferrothorn? Not a problem, it will break through eventually. That's absurd.

Dragon-Types were also absurd in Doubles and the only reason they weren't spammed even more was because Physical Dragon STAB isn't very good in Doubles.

Defensively, Dragon resists the entire 4 Basic Types (Grass, Fire, Water and Electric), and is only weak to two: Ice and Dragon. Dragon being, you know, the type we are talking about; and Ice-Type being a rarer type to be viable, especially in Doubles, which matters more than Singles.

It was also one of the best neutral defensive typings in the game. You wanna blame it on stats? Fucking Altaria was a good Dragon Dance sweeper in DPP UU.

Dragon-Type was objectively busted. Like, insanely so. DragMag was literally a thing, being able to remove the one or two Steels on a team, the only thing stopping the Dragons from basically picking up a KO every time they attacked, was viable. Stacking 3+ Dragons on a team was viable!

2. Fairy resisting Bug makes sense because in a lot of folklore, fairies control bugs and creatures of lower dominion. It's a lot more fair to say Fairy shouldn't resist Bug than your prior statement though.

Dragon type was busted but stats are a big reason why it was so threatening. Stats of both Pokémon and moves. All but two pseudo legends being Dragon Type (all with strong offensive stats) bloated the type with threats. There were also Kingdra, Flygon, and Haxorus, all with BSTs of 500 or higher. I'm going off of memory here but I think the only two fully-evolved Dragon types as of Gen 5 with a BST below 500 were Altaria and Druddigon? That's goofy. Latias and Latios were two other 600 BST legends allowed in OU. Outside of an OU meta, Game Freak had just made two straight generations with Dragon Types as box legends (with a few extra forms for good measure), not to mention Rayquaza.

The BP of Outrage and Draco Meteor was also absolutely part of the reason for the Dragon Type's dominance. But it was coupled with attack stats usually working from 110 base, at minimum. That doesn't help.

Something certainly had to be done about the Dragon Type after gen 5, and I like Fairy as an addition, but numerically it's a pretty nutty type too. It's largely kept in check by the relatively low BSTs of its possessors, as well as low BP of its main attacking moves.

Psychic is kind of the Gen 5 Dragon Type done "right." It has a high number of very strong/legendary pokemon with it, but numerically it's a weak type. It also doesn't have any conventional moves of its type with a BP over 90. It probably also helps that, even in the early gens, there were weaker mons with the typing, so while it was always top-heavy, so to speak, it had more reasonable options.

 

[Magcargo]

Hazards are non existant in official competitive pokemon

They need to be buffed not nerfed.

With how common Intimidate shuffling is as well as Amoongus whole existance and despise from VGC players, if anything I'll expect more, stronger buffs to them.

Nah, they are good. Glimmora is a great Stealth Rock setter in BSS. And hazards are amazing to break Focus Sashses. Not as dominant as in Smogon metas though since switching is noticably weaker.

 

[Worldie]

Nah, they are good. Glimmora is a great Stealth Rock setter in BSS. And hazards are amazing to break Focus Sashses. Not as dominant as in Smogon metas though since switching is noticably weaker.

Yeh, that was mostly where I was getting at.

The reason GameFreaks made now 3 "auto-setters" for Hazards as well as massively increasing Spikes distribution is cause of the almost nonexistant usage they have (or had, in case of bss) in VGC/BSS.

Considering the usage is still very low AND Intimidate shuffling + Amoongus are still what they are, if anything I'll expect *more* hazard buffs in the future.

good thing smogon doesn't balance the game otherwise we'd still be playing 1 hour long 6v6 matches

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Considering the usage is still very low AND Intimidate shuffling + Amoongus are still what they are, if anything I'll expect *more* hazard buffs in the future.

If that's the case, then I really do seriously advocate Smogon just abandons this ship and makes its own meta while it still can.

 

[MoonlightRose]

So, this is a subject someone raised to me, and I was curious what people here thought - Do Hazards need to be nerfed?

Like, it's kinda hard to deny how much hazards have shaped competitive Pokemon at this point. Teambuilding at this point is shaped around the mechanic, how it can be set, how it can be removed, and how you can avoid the dreaded damage caused by Stealth Rocks. It has only intensified with Gen IX, where a number of factors have made the mechanic a huge reason for the current misery endured in the meta, to where even something as innocuous as Ribombee is now subject to hate.

So the question is, should Hazards be significantly nerfed in some fashion, such as having them be temporary much like Weather, Terrain, and Screens are? Or should it just have the removal options expanded so that it acts as a less dominating mechanic? Curious what people think.

It's more likely they get a buff then a nerf, in the only format Gamefreak really cares about they're nonexistent.

 

[Ironmage]

I do generally like hazards being powerful (and it's a reason I prefer singles). The introduction of Boots in gen 8 (alongside a lot of competitive focus on bootleg Spikeless Skarmory) led to me not enjoying the battles nearly as much (even in Natdex). So I can't deny there's an amount of schadenfreude on my part about the hazard situation in gen 9. You wanted Boots to stick around as a commonly used item? Well here you go!

 

[Worldie]

If that's the case, then I really do seriously advocate Smogon just abandons this ship and makes its own meta while it still can.

The main thing (which unfortunately most Smogon players do not understand, albeith I saw some mention it), is that Smogon per se is trying to play a game with rules that the game is not made about.

It's like if you're trying to play soccer with 4 goalkeepers, or Rugby with 3 balls. Sure you "can" play it, but the rules and field were not made with the intention of that interaction, and ofc it does become a mess.

Since a few generations, GameFreaks has been focusing intensely over VGC and making Pokemon a "esports" (memes included).
E-sports however require to be interesting to watch. One of the main reason for the presence of such high impact mechanics like Dynamax and Terastal, and decent variance with secondary effects, is because these create spectator interest. As much as it would be interesting to play a calculated match of chess where all that matters is player decision and everyone is on even field, in reality the tension generated by a crit or freeze at a weird moment is much higher and the hype behind surprise comebacks is massive when it comes to spectatorship.

In same way, they always try to nuke any type of stall strategy (see matches having strict timer and recovery nerf) because these matches are just not fun to watch.

Do note that it's a pretty weird misconception that VGC is "all ho with broken pokemon". In fact, it's a very calculated metagame, and while matches are indeed often over in few turns, most pokemon do invest in bulk and positioning is as important as ever, specifically because you only have 4 mons and losing even a single one can be match deciding.
Es this was one of the latest top 10

You'd expect everyone playing ChienPao / ChiYou / Fluttermane / Bundle / etc etc, yet.... most teams actually play bulky offense and there's even Yvar playing cursed stall (pls stop)

 

[Samtendo09]

The main thing (which unfortunately most Smogon players do not understand, albeith I saw some mention it), is that Smogon per se is trying to play a game with rules that the game is not made about.

It's like if you're trying to play soccer with 4 goalkeepers, or Rugby with 3 balls. Sure you "can" play it, but the rules and field were not made with the intention of that interaction, and ofc it does become a mess.

Since a few generations, GameFreaks has been focusing intensely over VGC and making Pokemon a "esports" (memes included).
E-sports however require to be interesting to watch. One of the main reason for the presence of such high impact mechanics like Dynamax and Terastal, and decent variance with secondary effects, is because these create spectator interest. As much as it would be interesting to play a calculated match of chess where all that matters is player decision and everyone is on even field, in reality the tension generated by a crit or freeze at a weird moment is much higher and the hype behind surprise comebacks is massive when it comes to spectatorship.

In same way, they always try to nuke any type of stall strategy (see matches having strict timer and recovery nerf) because these matches are just not fun to watch.

Do note that it's a pretty weird misconception that VGC is "all ho with broken pokemon". In fact, it's a very calculated metagame, and while matches are indeed often over in few turns, most pokemon do invest in bulk and positioning is as important as ever, specifically because you only have 4 mons and losing even a single one can be match deciding.
Es this was one of the latest top 10
View attachment 562505

You'd expect everyone playing ChienPao / ChiYou / Fluttermane / Bundle / etc etc, yet.... most teams actually play bulky offense and there's even Yvar playing cursed stall (pls stop)

It didn’t surprises me that bulky offense managed to not just survive, but prosper better than most playstyles in VGC. What does surprise me is that for all the addition of hyper offense Pokémon in SV, bulky offense remained the top favorite in VGC, but it’s not that difficult to see why.

This has to do with the fact that double targeting simply exists in Double formats, and the fact that speed control is even more prominent and easier to do than in Singles. Trick Room is more popular in VGC than in Smogon Singles format just because there’s two Pokémon per side instead of one, thus the slower Pokémon can immediately benefit this field effect more.

A speedy Pokémon can be dominant in Singles, but if they do not have a good base bulk in Doubles territory, good luck surviving a priority move or getting struck back by a bulkier but equally stronger Pokémon, or dealing with all sort of speed control.

Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle, especially the former, managed to get away thanks to the big Special Defense and Defense they have, respectively, allowing to worry less of getting hit. That way, while their sheer Speed also make them vulnerable to Trick Room, they can still survive a strong move coming from Special Attack and Attack respectively so long it isn’t a high Base Power STAB Super Effective move. With that said, their high Speed means that it Trick Room is on, they can get into trouble, but their high bulk on one means that they aren’t in immediate danger, either.

Iron Hands, another Paradox Pokémon, made scene in VGC formats that allows Paradox Pokémon thanks to a combination of titanic bulk even by Paradox Pokémon standard - low Special Defense? Invest some EVs in SpD - and access of Swords Dance, something not even Melmetal, a Pokémon with better defensive typing, managed to get their hands on. That, alongside access to Fake Out and Heavy Slam, makes for a Pokémon with an unique niche of a bulky Electric-type Pokémon that functions well in and out of Trick Room.

Smogon Councils are too used playing with GF rules and may need to realize that while power creep is massive by Singles standard (and of course, it’s power creep in Doubles regardless), they should know that Singles isn’t the most important format in official competitions and should adjust their own battle rules and banlist better in order to make a more enjoyable Singles OU and below.

 

[Worldie]

A speedy Pokémon can be dominant in Singles, but if they do not have a good base bulk in Doubles territory, good luck surviving a priority move or getting struck back by a bulkier but equally stronger Pokémon, or dealing with all sort of speed control.

Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle, especially the former, managed to get away thanks to the big Special Defense and Defense they have, respectively, allowing to worry less of getting hit. That way, while their sheer Speed also make them vulnerable to Trick Room, they can still survive a strong move coming from Special Attack and Attack respectively so long it isn’t a high Base Power STAB Super Effective move. With that said, their high Speed means that it Trick Room is on, they can get into trouble, but their high bulk on one means that they aren’t in immediate danger, either.

Interestingly, Trick Room right now is in a pretty weird spot where it's very matchup fishy.

On one hand you have absolutely insane TR mons like Iron Hands, Cresselia, Ursaluna (both), Farigiraf (one of the best antimeta pick in Reg D) and a few more.
On the other hand... Iron Hands and Amoongus are everywhere and both actually play super well into trick room, + with ruin legendaries and Flutter Mane existing actually setting trick room without needing to commit Tera just for it is a challenge on its own.
During worlds (which were in reg D) there were very few hard TR teams, in fact the few successful ones were semi-TR being able to play both TR against faster enemies and without it against bulkier and slower teams.

 

[Coronis]

I’ve said it a few times before, ugh I hate these threads turning into shit about competitive - I specifically only use this Pokemon subforum here since I’ve moved passed competitive.

Spoiler

Of course I understand that this is a competitive Pokemon website and posts with some competitive aspects are going to end up here - I just really don’t like having to go through multiple posts or posts with indepth competitive analyses about them to find the ingame discussions I’m looking for

 

[Hugin]

Do note that it's a pretty weird misconception that VGC is "all ho with broken pokemon". In fact, it's a very calculated metagame, and while matches are indeed often over in few turns, most pokemon do invest in bulk and positioning is as important as ever, specifically because you only have 4 mons and losing even a single one can be match deciding.
Es this was one of the latest top 10
View attachment 562505

You'd expect everyone playing ChienPao / ChiYou / Fluttermane / Bundle / etc etc, yet.... most teams actually play bulky offense and there's even Yvar playing cursed stall (pls stop)

It's not all HO, but it is extremely centralized. Look at what you posted. 8 Fluttermane, 5 Rillaboom, 6 Landorus, 7 Ogerpon...In Smogon Singles, if someone breaks ~40% you quickly see people calling for a ban just because they're bored of it. This meta hasn't had time to settle and there's 4 mons over that point.

 

[Worldie]

It's not all HO, but it is extremely centralized. Look at what you posted. 8 Fluttermane, 5 Rillaboom, 6 Landorus, 7 Ogerpon...In Smogon Singles, if someone breaks ~40% you quickly see people calling for a ban just because they're bored of it.

Yes like everyone demanding to ban Lando-T for last 5 generations.

Usage != overpowered (albeith, sometimes for obvious reasons it is), I thought we got to this point by now.
Zacian last gen was considered overpowered, yet it wasn't even the most used Restricted or pokemon in general, several utility mons like Incineroar and Amoongus demolished it in usage.

The only mons that are actually considered overpowered by the VGC community afaik are Ogerpon, Urshifu (take an ability balanced around Dynamax existing and remove Dynamax...) and Iron Hands (which manages to be probably the best mon in the format despite having basically no ability).

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

Personally speaking, I consider having a meta in a game like Pokemon so centralized that there are only 21 unique mons amongst the Top 10 teams is pretty damning in itself. This is, like, Leroy in Tekken 7 levels of saturation, and yet the culture with VGC seems to consider this acceptable.

 

[Samtendo09]

Yes like everyone demanding to ban Lando-T for last 5 generations.

Usage != overpowered (albeith, sometimes for obvious reasons it is), I thought we got to this point by now.
Zacian last gen was considered overpowered, yet it wasn't even the most used Restricted or pokemon in general, several utility mons like Incineroar and Amoongus demolished it in usage.

The only mons that are actually considered overpowered by the VGC community afaik are Ogerpon, Urshifu (take an ability balanced around Dynamax existing and remove Dynamax...) and Iron Hands (which manages to be probably the best mon in the format despite having basically no ability).

I know Iron Hands’ a powerful threat in VGC but…

WHAT.

I mean, it’s one thing to make a physical Electric-type Pokémon to work in VGC. But it’s another to be one of the best of the format despite having no effective Ability thanks to Pincurchin being useless and Miraidon not available!

Imagine the terror it and Iron Bundle will cause once Miraidon will enter the scene. Same for Flutter Mane once Koraidon or Groudon becomes allowed.

 

[Antihaxxer]

There is still the ability booster who works like a Choice item without being locked ? (Few switch in VGC)

 

[woodgoldtwo]

There is still the ability booster who works like a Choice item without being locked ? (Few switch in VGC)

If you don’t already know, booster energy is only a 1.3x multiplier for everything except speed which is 1.5

 

[Worldie]

There is still the ability booster who works like a Choice item without being locked ? (Few switch in VGC)

There is, but large majority of IH use AV in order to tank a hit from Flutter Mane and 1hko with Heavy Slam.

Plus it's a pokemon you tend to shuffle a lot (having access to both Fake out and Volt switch, and being victim of intimidate) so the one time booster energy doesnt work well (it's mainly used on Bundle instead and occasionally on Fluttermane)

Personally speaking, I consider having a meta in a game like Pokemon so centralized that there are only 21 unique mons amongst the Top 10 teams is pretty damning in itself. This is, like, Leroy in Tekken 7 levels of saturation, and yet the culture with VGC seems to consider this acceptable.

The thing is, less threats = less things to prepare for. It's easier to teambuild when there are a limited amount of pokemon you have to account for.

Isn't one of the current issue of OU specifically the fact that you have so many threats to prepare for that it's a nightmare to cover everything ?

 

[Antihaxxer]

If you don’t already know, booster energy is only a 1.3x multiplier for everything except speed which is 1.5

I forgot :o (To my defense, I only use Speed Boost ;))

 

[MisogiKurakawa]

The thing is, less threats = less things to prepare for. It's easier to teambuild when there are a limited amount of pokemon you have to account for.

Isn't one of the current issue of OU specifically the fact that you have so many threats to prepare for that it's a nightmare to cover everything ?

My counterargument is that it takes out a lot out of the actual art of Pokemon's design when everyone is just running the same teams over and over. Rather than designing a strong team that you enjoy using, the game (and I stress this is my opinion) devolves into a glorified chess match that punishes you for player expression. Not to mention it gets very boring, since you usually just fight people with the exact same teams and thus strategies, over and over.

 

[Worldie]

My counterargument is that it takes out a lot out of the actual art of Pokemon's design when everyone is just running the same teams over and over. Rather than designing a strong team that you enjoy using, the game (and I stress this is my opinion) devolves into a glorified chess match that punishes you for player expression. Not to mention it gets very boring, since you usually just fight people with the exact same teams and thus strategies, over and over.

I don't think you have played / watched a lot of competitive games do you.

Whenever we are looking at mobas like League or Dota, fighting games like Smash or SF, or even card games like YGO or Pokemon itself, people play to win.

People will use the best of the best to give themselves the best chances, so people will always gravitate toward the best 20 champions, the best 20 pokemon, the best deck archetypes, the highest tier fighter etc.
You will have the odd ball like the person bringing Blue Eyes in a Tearlament meta, or Garen picked during play in (and winning all matches cause noone knows how to play against it), or the Jigglypuff otp in smash, etc etc, but high level metas will always be somewhat centralized around the top tiers and what is strong against the toptiers.

Noone wants to gamble their prize money on matchup fishing. Noone wants to lose a million dollars because they ended up counterteamed in the finals with 0 chance of winning due to the meta being too complex.
While it may (and does) result in a less interesting viewer experience, a centralized meta is a stable meta.

 

[Ironmage]

My understanding of the tabletop wargaming sphere is that overcentralized metas effectively devolve into rock-paper-sicssors between top builds, pretty much the opposite of not fishing for matchups. To use the (recently addressed) state of Star Wars Armada as an example: Anakin is considered the best commander around, with good reason. Most non-Anakin builds seriously struggle against him. Sloane, while not a low-tier by any means, has many more weaknesses but is also perfectly suited to defeating Anakin. The third category is thus any other commander at a given tournament: capable of beating Sloane but not Anakin. The end result is that everybody just picks one of the three options and hopes to not have many bad matchups. The serious players don't like it because getting through the tournament feels luck-based, and the spectators don't like it because low diversity isn't interesting to watch.

 

[Worldie]

My understanding of the tabletop wargaming sphere is that overcentralized metas effectively devolve into rock-paper-sicssors between top builds, pretty much the opposite of not fishing for matchups. To use the (recently addressed) state of Star Wars Armada as an example: Anakin is considered the best commander around, with good reason. Most non-Anakin builds seriously struggle against him. Sloane, while not a low-tier by any means, has many more weaknesses but is also perfectly suited to defeating Anakin. The third category is thus any other commander at a given tournament: capable of beating Sloane but not Anakin. The end result is that everybody just picks one of the three options and hopes to not have many bad matchups. The serious players don't like it because getting through the tournament feels luck-based, and the spectators don't like it because low diversity isn't interesting to watch.

Yes, but this is Pokemon we're talking about, not a 1v1 game. You have 6 pokemon in your team, with the added flexibility of VGC being "bring 4 out of 6", which does give you a lot of leeway on how you build.

Pretty much every team structure will have some combination of the top 15 or so pokemon + 1 or 2 niche picks that work well or against them, obviously, but that's far from a stale meta as long as multiple archetypes are viable.

This isn't CHALK where if 5 of your 6 weren't the predetermined top mons, you were by default at a massive disadvantage and basically playing hoping your opponent misplayed.

 

[pika pal]

Unpopular Opinion of mine followed by a quote response/follow-up.

Legends Unova is a fun idea for the story/world to explore, but making an "ancient Unova" fun to play is borderline impossible without a massive Geography overhaul compared to Sinnoh. Unova's Region design is based heavily on its cities while not having a great deal to work with for geographical setpieces: you have Chargestone Cave, Twist Mountain, and Dragonspiral Tower, which are all concentrated on the West side of the Region compared to Sinnoh having a more centered Mt. Coronet or a hypothetical Johto game probably basing in Mahogany Town with the Towers (whether or not the historic Fire occurs during the story in question.)

Yes, but this is Pokemon we're talking about, not a 1v1 game. You have 6 pokemon in your team, with the added flexibility of VGC being "bring 4 out of 6", which does give you a lot of leeway on how you build.

Pretty much every team structure will have some combination of the top 15 or so pokemon + 1 or 2 niche picks that work well or against them, obviously, but that's far from a stale meta as long as multiple archetypes are viable.

This isn't CHALK where if 5 of your 6 weren't the predetermined top mons, you were by default at a massive disadvantage and basically playing hoping your opponent misplayed.

Also if I recall, CHALK in at least some regionals/one year Worlds did become more of a blueprint than a hard-set Core. Like I recall one or two teams that would sub things like Amoongus for Aegislash as a different Resist Profile or Cresselia for Sylveon, with Landorus-T being the only Pokemon you literally always saw because a Fighting Resistant Intimidator with two of the best VGC spread moves is too perfect in that era of VGC to pass-up.

It reminds me a bit of RBY OU, where Tauros is required and Snorlax/Chansey are so good that you're probably kneecapping without them 98% of the time: you can get diversity in other sets but playing optimally inevitably locks some things in.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Unpopular Opinion of mine followed by a quote response/follow-up.

Legends Unova is a fun idea for the story/world to explore, but making an "ancient Unova" fun to play is borderline impossible without a massive Geography overhaul compared to Sinnoh. Unova's Region design is based heavily on its cities while not having a great deal to work with for geographical setpieces: you have Chargestone Cave, Twist Mountain, and Dragonspiral Tower, which are all concentrated on the West side of the Region compared to Sinnoh having a more centered Mt. Coronet or a hypothetical Johto game probably basing in Mahogany Town with the Towers (whether or not the historic Fire occurs during the story in question.)

It's cool to think about the game design perspective when talking old region revisits but I'm not sure if I entirely agree with this line of thought. You've ommitted quite a few non-natural landmarks from your assessment, most notably Relic Castle and Abyssal Ruin which feel ready-made for some sort of expansion depending on how far back a hypothetical Legends Unova would be. There's also Reversal Mountain, which fulfills the role of natural spot on the eastern side of the region.

I do think other regions are better for this format for similar reasons to what you've described, but I would hardly call a Legends Unova "borderline impossible without a massive geographical overhaul"