Eh it didn’t really work that way with Mewtwo - Crunch was special and T-tar’s special attack is relatively poor. Plus ya know, Suicune.
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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
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Eh it didn’t really work that way with Mewtwo - Crunch was special and T-tar’s special attack is relatively poor. Plus ya know, Suicune.
People saying GF for Gen 2 didn't consider competitive data are kinda wrong
Even ignoring Sugimori's statement for Dark type, HAL and GF legit polled data of winners in Gen 1 tournaments for Stadium trainers. Stadium also was intended to be the defacto way to do tournaments given its "patches" and clauses
Gen 2 dev we can see how harshly GF nerfed Tauros after late 1998 (It initially had 55 for Sp Atk in SW1997, changed to 40 in final), a premiere Gen 1 threat in comp. Psychic being nerfed even though weaker Psychic mons were frail was definitely on purpose in response to comp data, same for overall Normal type nerf
What gets me is they didn't buff Bug in response bar removal of Poison weakness
Even ignoring Sugimori's statement for Dark type, HAL and GF legit polled data of winners in Gen 1 tournaments for Stadium trainers. Stadium also was intended to be the defacto way to do tournaments given its "patches" and clauses
Gen 2 dev we can see how harshly GF nerfed Tauros after late 1998 (It initially had 55 for Sp Atk in SW1997, changed to 40 in final), a premiere Gen 1 threat in comp. Psychic being nerfed even though weaker Psychic mons were frail was definitely on purpose in response to comp data, same for overall Normal type nerf
What gets me is they didn't buff Bug in response bar removal of Poison weakness
The further extension of "fairy requires unconventional Steel and Poison mons" that's been on my mind: how many mons does it take to sustain something as large as a type as anti-meta? It feels like it requires not only a spread of offensive mons of those types (to deal with several dual-typings of Fairy) but even more defensive mons so that the unconventional has a standard to not be. This then cascades into larger mon pools of every type in order to maintain parity. I'm not saying that it's currently solved in Natdex, but I am stuck thinking that the design intentions of the type may not be possible in a limited format.
Fair. To take it back to the original point(a discussion of Gen 2's gyms sucking), I think there's various ways a gym can be good, and people get confused because they don't always agree on the definition of good.
For example, Galar's gyms are impressive. It's a massive stadium, the soundtrack is incredible, there's a designated "Shit is serious" moment when the ace comes out and Dynamaxes...it was the first game where I think the gyms really lived up to the hype. I doubt I could name any mon from their teams other than the DMax one, and the gen's mechanics meant they weren't exactly challenging fights if you knew what you were doing, but none of that mattered when playing.
Personally? I think that gyms should be a challenge, which is different from being a tough fight. A tough fight can just be a bunch of overleveled mons, or giving everything a free stat boost and 2 moves a turn a la Alola*. And tough fights are good, but I want battles that say "learn the mechanics of the game and be rewarded". Now, you have to make them tough to do that, so that players don't steamroll the fight with one mon, but that's the side-effect, not the goal. Gyms, both as in-universe places of education and as the mandatory fights, seem perfect for that, but with few exceptions, GF just doesn't use them for that.
*If you want hard boss fights, there you go. Alola, if you aren't cheesing them, made things as difficult as reasonably possible in a game aimed at kids. Just not if you're fighting the human characters.
Agree with everything else, but I think you're underselling some of the non-Totem fights a bit! In USUM at least, all the Kahunas' mons have 252/252 EV spreads and 30 IVs across the board, which make them quite threatening (although obviously they have major shortcomings like their terrible Z-move AI). I remember Hala in particular really caught me by surprise with how tanky his Pokemon were. However, I think it's fair to say that this is a pretty lame way to make battles harder.
As I said, though, 100% agree with the rest. Discussions of difficulty in Pokemon tend to focus on the fangame/Kaizo approach, which simply isn't feasible in an official title. Fangames can safely assume near-perfect game knowledge, but the main series games can't and shouldn't. It seems really obvious to me that they should lean more into designing each Leader with a powerful strategy in mind and also interesting and accessible forms of counterplay, like a less boring version of the guy in Virbank City who tells you that he was struggling against Roxie until he caught a Magnemite at the Virbank Complex. Maybe there's a Gym Leader who uses a scary Aurora Veil team, but you can do a little sidequest to get access to Brick Break in the same city; Hex team/Safeguard; setup spam/Encore; etc. Nothing is forcing the player to use these strategies, but they'll be rewarded if they do.
You could take it in a different direction and ramp up the raw power of Gym Leaders, but make it so that various NPCs give the player specific information about their teams through their dialogue if they choose to investigate the town/city/area. This already happens a little bit, but the details are usually pretty sparse (and sometimes it ends up being a little misleading for casual players, like the Gym Guide in BW's Nimbasa Gym).
I'm imagining there being enough info available to formulate a mon-by-mon strategy if you really take the time, like
"I thought I was being clever using my Electrode's Charge Beam against Coral's Mantine, but it held on and retaliated with Mirror Coat! Guess it must have really high Special Defense..."
"I heard that Coral hasn't taught the move Rain Dance to any of her Pokemon. I suppose she doesn't need it, thanks to her Politoed's Ability Drizzle!"
"My brother says it's silly of me to bring a Ground-type like Hippopotas to my battle against Coral, but its Sand Stream ability can take away the rain so my other Pokemon have a better shot of winning."
"I can't believe it... I had the perfect plan in place: Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, Sticky Web... then her Tentacruel comes in and clears it all away with Rapid Spin! All that work, erased in an instant..."
etc etc
Of course, some people might think it's cheap to have so much intel before the battle, so these NPCs could preface their hint with naturalistic dialogue in the form of a Yes/No prompt, indicating that they're about to reveal something about the Leader's tactics.
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I feel there are different ways to make a Gym and Gym Leader memorable, sometimes it can be aesthetic, and sometimes it can be atmosphere.
Galar's Gyms are pretty universally memorable because of the atmosphere, as stated, being a big spectator event and Dynamax being a massive spectacle helps. Some also have fun gimmicks.
Or it can be something simple like Brock in Gen 1. He's not a hard fight per se, but he's a suitable first boss in that he's the first real roadblock who introduces the first real "wow" moment in the game and it takes more effort or thought to beat him than anything you face beforehand. He's manageable to a point where a new player can feasibly win, but he has enough presence to stand out and be memorable. He comes at you with a rock monster in Geodude and then a giant rock snake in Onix, who straight up walls every com mon, is the biggest threat you've faced thus far, and requires more than just spamming Tackle/whatever and taking it down thanks to walling that. Bulbasaur players can either grind to Level 13 or close and KO with Vine Whip, learning about type effectiveness and "elemental" moves to win, or they can wear Onix down in a war of attrition with Leech Seed and Growl for debuffs. Charmander players will likely have to grind to Level 16 and evolve it so they gain a power advantage in both level and the mon itself. Squirtle players have Bubble to do heavy damage to Onix in a few blows, and like Bulbasaur players, will also learn type advantage. In Yellow, players will have to get teammates like Nidoran, Mankey, and Butterfree, learning they need teammates. There's a lot that this battle can teach you, and Onix was an effective "first boss" in that regard. There's a reason almost everyone remembers Brock and his Onix so well even now.
Obviously that particular instance is archaic and from an outdated game design that wouldn't work in modern Pokemon, although there are other examples over the years.
In Gen 1 itself Misty was a threatening second boss because her Starmie was legit *dangerous*, while Giovanni is memorable as the last boss for narrative reasons because he's the Team Rocket boss of the Gym that had an absent leader.
Norman is also a notable example in Hoenn in the narrative front, since he's literally your father and there's narrative buildup to you vs. him in a Gym Battle, and he's a threat with Slaking to enforce that, making it all the bigger a milestone when you do beat him and essentially surpass him as a Trainer (child surpasses parent story). Some Hoenn Gym Leaders stand out for different reasons: Winona has a strong Altaria that's either very deadly with DD+Aerial Ace+Earthquake in RSE, or Cotton Guard+Roost in ORAS to be near unkillable, making her a threat in battle. Tate and Liza showcase the Doubles gimmick.
BW1 had quite a bit here in my eyes. Elesa is very memorable not because she is actually hard, but because she had a very unique and memorable gimmick in Volt Switch spam to constantly alternate her mons and do damage at the same time making her a unique pain. Lenora was also a deadly first boss. Striaton is a forced tutorial but it's memorable precisely because it's that.
I do think Johto had one memorable Gym Leader, and that was Claire. In part because her Kingdra was hard to defeat with near unresisted coverage and no weaknesses to exploit at that point, and also in part because she was in the Dragon's Den. Kalos doesn't have a lot of memorable Gym Leaders but Korrina has story relevance since she introduces the Mega Evolution mechanic.
You get the rundown but there's plenty of ways to have memorable Gym Leaders, you just have to make sure they succeed in, well, standing out in that way.
Galar's Gyms are pretty universally memorable because of the atmosphere, as stated, being a big spectator event and Dynamax being a massive spectacle helps. Some also have fun gimmicks.
Or it can be something simple like Brock in Gen 1. He's not a hard fight per se, but he's a suitable first boss in that he's the first real roadblock who introduces the first real "wow" moment in the game and it takes more effort or thought to beat him than anything you face beforehand. He's manageable to a point where a new player can feasibly win, but he has enough presence to stand out and be memorable. He comes at you with a rock monster in Geodude and then a giant rock snake in Onix, who straight up walls every com mon, is the biggest threat you've faced thus far, and requires more than just spamming Tackle/whatever and taking it down thanks to walling that. Bulbasaur players can either grind to Level 13 or close and KO with Vine Whip, learning about type effectiveness and "elemental" moves to win, or they can wear Onix down in a war of attrition with Leech Seed and Growl for debuffs. Charmander players will likely have to grind to Level 16 and evolve it so they gain a power advantage in both level and the mon itself. Squirtle players have Bubble to do heavy damage to Onix in a few blows, and like Bulbasaur players, will also learn type advantage. In Yellow, players will have to get teammates like Nidoran, Mankey, and Butterfree, learning they need teammates. There's a lot that this battle can teach you, and Onix was an effective "first boss" in that regard. There's a reason almost everyone remembers Brock and his Onix so well even now.
Obviously that particular instance is archaic and from an outdated game design that wouldn't work in modern Pokemon, although there are other examples over the years.
In Gen 1 itself Misty was a threatening second boss because her Starmie was legit *dangerous*, while Giovanni is memorable as the last boss for narrative reasons because he's the Team Rocket boss of the Gym that had an absent leader.
Norman is also a notable example in Hoenn in the narrative front, since he's literally your father and there's narrative buildup to you vs. him in a Gym Battle, and he's a threat with Slaking to enforce that, making it all the bigger a milestone when you do beat him and essentially surpass him as a Trainer (child surpasses parent story). Some Hoenn Gym Leaders stand out for different reasons: Winona has a strong Altaria that's either very deadly with DD+Aerial Ace+Earthquake in RSE, or Cotton Guard+Roost in ORAS to be near unkillable, making her a threat in battle. Tate and Liza showcase the Doubles gimmick.
BW1 had quite a bit here in my eyes. Elesa is very memorable not because she is actually hard, but because she had a very unique and memorable gimmick in Volt Switch spam to constantly alternate her mons and do damage at the same time making her a unique pain. Lenora was also a deadly first boss. Striaton is a forced tutorial but it's memorable precisely because it's that.
I do think Johto had one memorable Gym Leader, and that was Claire. In part because her Kingdra was hard to defeat with near unresisted coverage and no weaknesses to exploit at that point, and also in part because she was in the Dragon's Den. Kalos doesn't have a lot of memorable Gym Leaders but Korrina has story relevance since she introduces the Mega Evolution mechanic.
You get the rundown but there's plenty of ways to have memorable Gym Leaders, you just have to make sure they succeed in, well, standing out in that way.
So, this is a subject someone raised to me, and I was curious what people here thought - Do Hazards need to be nerfed?
Like, it's kinda hard to deny how much hazards have shaped competitive Pokemon at this point. Teambuilding at this point is shaped around the mechanic, how it can be set, how it can be removed, and how you can avoid the dreaded damage caused by Stealth Rocks. It has only intensified with Gen IX, where a number of factors have made the mechanic a huge reason for the current misery endured in the meta, to where even something as innocuous as Ribombee is now subject to hate.
So the question is, should Hazards be significantly nerfed in some fashion, such as having them be temporary much like Weather, Terrain, and Screens are? Or should it just have the removal options expanded so that it acts as a less dominating mechanic? Curious what people think.
Like, it's kinda hard to deny how much hazards have shaped competitive Pokemon at this point. Teambuilding at this point is shaped around the mechanic, how it can be set, how it can be removed, and how you can avoid the dreaded damage caused by Stealth Rocks. It has only intensified with Gen IX, where a number of factors have made the mechanic a huge reason for the current misery endured in the meta, to where even something as innocuous as Ribombee is now subject to hate.
So the question is, should Hazards be significantly nerfed in some fashion, such as having them be temporary much like Weather, Terrain, and Screens are? Or should it just have the removal options expanded so that it acts as a less dominating mechanic? Curious what people think.
Hazards are non existant in official competitive pokemon
They need to be buffed not nerfed.
With how common Intimidate shuffling is as well as Amoongus whole existance and despise from VGC players, if anything I'll expect more, stronger buffs to them.
It's hard to think of a change that strikes the appropriate balance without being cumbersome to convey to the player. A five-turn clock would be interesting; my only criticism is that I think it'd make them even less appealing to use in-game. No team preview + healing items + virtually no AI switching means you're probably only gonna get one or two instances of hazard chip per use of the move (assuming the Pokemon that come out are even affected by your hazards of choice), unless you're steamrolling through the opponent's team anyway.
Maybe they could be buffed in terms of damage/effect in exchange for disappearing after a single switch-in (or disappearing layer by layer in the case of Spikes/Toxic Spikes)? Of course, that just raises several more questions about exactly how much stronger they should be to compensate haha. What I like about this idea is that it makes them more viable in VGC Doubles but weaker in Singles.
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Dragon type was busted but stats are a big reason why it was so threatening. Stats of both Pokémon and moves. All but two pseudo legends being Dragon Type (all with strong offensive stats) bloated the type with threats. There were also Kingdra, Flygon, and Haxorus, all with BSTs of 500 or higher. I'm going off of memory here but I think the only two fully-evolved Dragon types as of Gen 5 with a BST below 500 were Altaria and Druddigon? That's goofy. Latias and Latios were two other 600 BST legends allowed in OU. Outside of an OU meta, Game Freak had just made two straight generations with Dragon Types as box legends (with a few extra forms for good measure), not to mention Rayquaza.
The BP of Outrage and Draco Meteor was also absolutely part of the reason for the Dragon Type's dominance. But it was coupled with attack stats usually working from 110 base, at minimum. That doesn't help.
Something certainly had to be done about the Dragon Type after gen 5, and I like Fairy as an addition, but numerically it's a pretty nutty type too. It's largely kept in check by the relatively low BSTs of its possessors, as well as low BP of its main attacking moves.
Psychic is kind of the Gen 5 Dragon Type done "right." It has a high number of very strong/legendary pokemon with it, but numerically it's a weak type. It also doesn't have any conventional moves of its type with a BP over 90. It probably also helps that, even in the early gens, there were weaker mons with the typing, so while it was always top-heavy, so to speak, it had more reasonable options.
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Nah, they are good. Glimmora is a great Stealth Rock setter in BSS. And hazards are amazing to break Focus Sashses. Not as dominant as in Smogon metas though since switching is noticably weaker.
Yeh, that was mostly where I was getting at.
The reason GameFreaks made now 3 "auto-setters" for Hazards as well as massively increasing Spikes distribution is cause of the almost nonexistant usage they have (or had, in case of bss) in VGC/BSS.
Considering the usage is still very low AND Intimidate shuffling + Amoongus are still what they are, if anything I'll expect *more* hazard buffs in the future.
If that's the case, then I really do seriously advocate Smogon just abandons this ship and makes its own meta while it still can.
It's more likely they get a buff then a nerf, in the only format Gamefreak really cares about they're nonexistent.
I do generally like hazards being powerful (and it's a reason I prefer singles). The introduction of Boots in gen 8 (alongside a lot of competitive focus on bootleg Spikeless Skarmory) led to me not enjoying the battles nearly as much (even in Natdex). So I can't deny there's an amount of schadenfreude on my part about the hazard situation in gen 9. You wanted Boots to stick around as a commonly used item? Well here you go!
The main thing (which unfortunately most Smogon players do not understand, albeith I saw some mention it), is that Smogon per se is trying to play a game with rules that the game is not made about.
It's like if you're trying to play soccer with 4 goalkeepers, or Rugby with 3 balls. Sure you "can" play it, but the rules and field were not made with the intention of that interaction, and ofc it does become a mess.
Since a few generations, GameFreaks has been focusing intensely over VGC and making Pokemon a "esports" (memes included).
E-sports however require to be interesting to watch. One of the main reason for the presence of such high impact mechanics like Dynamax and Terastal, and decent variance with secondary effects, is because these create spectator interest. As much as it would be interesting to play a calculated match of chess where all that matters is player decision and everyone is on even field, in reality the tension generated by a crit or freeze at a weird moment is much higher and the hype behind surprise comebacks is massive when it comes to spectatorship.
In same way, they always try to nuke any type of stall strategy (see matches having strict timer and recovery nerf) because these matches are just not fun to watch.
Do note that it's a pretty weird misconception that VGC is "all ho with broken pokemon". In fact, it's a very calculated metagame, and while matches are indeed often over in few turns, most pokemon do invest in bulk and positioning is as important as ever, specifically because you only have 4 mons and losing even a single one can be match deciding.
Es this was one of the latest top 10
You'd expect everyone playing ChienPao / ChiYou / Fluttermane / Bundle / etc etc, yet.... most teams actually play bulky offense and there's even Yvar playing cursed stall (pls stop)
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It didn’t surprises me that bulky offense managed to not just survive, but prosper better than most playstyles in VGC. What does surprise me is that for all the addition of hyper offense Pokémon in SV, bulky offense remained the top favorite in VGC, but it’s not that difficult to see why.
This has to do with the fact that double targeting simply exists in Double formats, and the fact that speed control is even more prominent and easier to do than in Singles. Trick Room is more popular in VGC than in Smogon Singles format just because there’s two Pokémon per side instead of one, thus the slower Pokémon can immediately benefit this field effect more.
A speedy Pokémon can be dominant in Singles, but if they do not have a good base bulk in Doubles territory, good luck surviving a priority move or getting struck back by a bulkier but equally stronger Pokémon, or dealing with all sort of speed control.
Flutter Mane and Iron Bundle, especially the former, managed to get away thanks to the big Special Defense and Defense they have, respectively, allowing to worry less of getting hit. That way, while their sheer Speed also make them vulnerable to Trick Room, they can still survive a strong move coming from Special Attack and Attack respectively so long it isn’t a high Base Power STAB Super Effective move. With that said, their high Speed means that it Trick Room is on, they can get into trouble, but their high bulk on one means that they aren’t in immediate danger, either.
Iron Hands, another Paradox Pokémon, made scene in VGC formats that allows Paradox Pokémon thanks to a combination of titanic bulk even by Paradox Pokémon standard - low Special Defense? Invest some EVs in SpD - and access of Swords Dance, something not even Melmetal, a Pokémon with better defensive typing, managed to get their hands on. That, alongside access to Fake Out and Heavy Slam, makes for a Pokémon with an unique niche of a bulky Electric-type Pokémon that functions well in and out of Trick Room.
Smogon Councils are too used playing with GF rules and may need to realize that while power creep is massive by Singles standard (and of course, it’s power creep in Doubles regardless), they should know that Singles isn’t the most important format in official competitions and should adjust their own battle rules and banlist better in order to make a more enjoyable Singles OU and below.
Interestingly, Trick Room right now is in a pretty weird spot where it's very matchup fishy.
On one hand you have absolutely insane TR mons like Iron Hands, Cresselia, Ursaluna (both), Farigiraf (one of the best antimeta pick in Reg D) and a few more.
On the other hand... Iron Hands and Amoongus are everywhere and both actually play super well into trick room, + with ruin legendaries and Flutter Mane existing actually setting trick room without needing to commit Tera just for it is a challenge on its own.
During worlds (which were in reg D) there were very few hard TR teams, in fact the few successful ones were semi-TR being able to play both TR against faster enemies and without it against bulkier and slower teams.
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I’ve said it a few times before, ugh I hate these threads turning into shit about competitive - I specifically only use this Pokemon subforum here since I’ve moved passed competitive.
Of course I understand that this is a competitive Pokemon website and posts with some competitive aspects are going to end up here - I just really don’t like having to go through multiple posts or posts with indepth competitive analyses about them to find the ingame discussions I’m looking for
It's not all HO, but it is extremely centralized. Look at what you posted. 8 Fluttermane, 5 Rillaboom, 6 Landorus, 7 Ogerpon...In Smogon Singles, if someone breaks ~40% you quickly see people calling for a ban just because they're bored of it. This meta hasn't had time to settle and there's 4 mons over that point.
Yes like everyone demanding to ban Lando-T for last 5 generations.
Usage != overpowered (albeith, sometimes for obvious reasons it is), I thought we got to this point by now.
Zacian last gen was considered overpowered, yet it wasn't even the most used Restricted or pokemon in general, several utility mons like Incineroar and Amoongus demolished it in usage.
The only mons that are actually considered overpowered by the VGC community afaik are Ogerpon, Urshifu (take an ability balanced around Dynamax existing and remove Dynamax...) and Iron Hands (which manages to be probably the best mon in the format despite having basically no ability).
Personally speaking, I consider having a meta in a game like Pokemon so centralized that there are only 21 unique mons amongst the Top 10 teams is pretty damning in itself. This is, like, Leroy in Tekken 7 levels of saturation, and yet the culture with VGC seems to consider this acceptable.
I know Iron Hands’ a powerful threat in VGC but…
WHAT.
I mean, it’s one thing to make a physical Electric-type Pokémon to work in VGC. But it’s another to be one of the best of the format despite having no effective Ability thanks to Pincurchin being useless and Miraidon not available!
Imagine the terror it and Iron Bundle will cause once Miraidon will enter the scene. Same for Flutter Mane once Koraidon or Groudon becomes allowed.
There is still the ability booster who works like a Choice item without being locked ? (Few switch in VGC)
If you don’t already know, booster energy is only a 1.3x multiplier for everything except speed which is 1.5