lando-t and pex don't exist, defensive tusk is garbage and has always been garbage, and nothing else on this list actually walls it except for dozo (legit counterplay) and defensive ghold, which also needs to be banned
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
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you mentioned two and didnt even mention the third. in actuality the only pokemon that can check sneasler with some level of consistency are dondozo, gholdengo, and skeledirge who is for some reason absent here. and the former risks getting haxxed by dire claw whereas the latter two risk getting blown right past if sneasler is packing tera ghost shadow claw
as for the others, toxapex isnt very common outside of fat and usually runs specially defensive sets, which sneasler doesnt have much trouble getting past. landorus-T can somewhat deal with it but it is far from foolproof. the rest of these are hardly even checks
Oh boy! An opportunity to argue online!
Deploy the ultimate weapon! The WALL OF CALCS!
+1 252+ Atk Tera Flying Sneasler Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 229-270 (59.9 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Sneasler Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 219-258 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery (Guaranteed 2HKO even if the pex uses haze, which most of them don't even run at this point)
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Sneasler Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 306-360 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (even after burn it's a 2HKO and gunk shot gives u a chance to OHKO)
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 438-516 (114 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Even if you wanna use the argument that gunk shot isn't always run zap still has to predict the tera to go hurricane or tbolt
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Corviknight: 322-381 (80.5 - 95.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Sneasler Lash Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 374-442 (118.7 - 140.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO (also works with shadow claw)
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 256-303 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Great Tusk Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Flying Sneasler: 218-258 (72.4 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
And that's completely discounting acrobatics, which obviously OHKOs
+2 252+ Atk Tera Flying Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Clefable: 378-445 (95.9 - 112.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
have you even played a game against this thing?
anyone rating it less than a 3 clearly hasn't. but then there were some people who voted low on bax, so i suppose we'll always have delusional people haunting our surveys
you only get to be this condescending & obnoxious if you’re right.
literally only one of those is an “answer”, and it risks losing to dire claw. the others are setup fodder or just fold to it at +2 given the correct coverage (aka the most common set).
firstly, it doesn’t need all of those to be problematic. acro/gunk or shadow claw/cc is enough.
secondly, you don’t get the point of a pokémon having many means to circumvent common “checks”. it’s not that it runs every move at once, rather, it’s that it can run these moves, turning building for it & making solid plays to counteract it tenuous at best. (hm. reminds me of something else… curious)
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good luck guessing which coverage move sneasler is running then, and you better guess correctly or else you risk getting completely ran over by it
Yeah, but you often don't know which of those moves they are using until it's too late.
So just have all of these pokemon on one team, then your team WON'T auto-lose to seedler from max hp. It's as simple as that!
And you were talking about things that WALL sneasler. Not things that kinda-sorta check it as long as it isn't running the right coverage move.
IN ADDITION you massively inflate the amount of coverage it needs. Lash out and Shadow Claw serve the same purpose of being anti-gholdengo move and Dire Claw is generally ass on unburden sets so you have 5 coverage moves to fit in 4 slots, which leaves you with a lot less blind spots.
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i swear i really, really despise the braindead “lol it can’t run all these moves” argument. it’s so vapid & unconsidered. just showing yourself up with it tbh.
i'm playing devil's advocate on hard mode right now, but technically resttalk dozo has a lower risk of losing to dire claw than any other non-steel and non-garg mon in the game because it can heal its own status and act while asleep. just a minor nitpick of course, because sneasler is more broken than a plate at a greek wedding
putting dondozo to sleep mid-turn completely stops it from doing anything else and prevents it from healing w/ rest tho. its not complete fodder when its asleep but its much more prone to getting broken past by the subsequent CC spam. the other two status effects arent as detrimental but paralysis can also be a massive problem for dondozo
this much is true, but my sneasler is well trained & always sleeps opponents for the max turns
actually no, you could saying be the most revolutionary stuff imaginable and that still wouldn’t be enough to justify being like this
clefable is not supposed to deal with top psychical attackers, its not a psychically defensive power house because gamefreak designed it to be specially bulky, it can take psychical hits well , but not from a top threat like sneasler, zapdos isn’t that psychically bulky either, so theres five main counters to snealser, this post would be fine if you understood that you say is subjective just like everyone else,
you don’t know what they’re running, sneasler does suffer from 4 moveslot syndrome, but not to a ruinous extent, that why people who want the weasel banned bring up its coverage
Just a blurb about 
and 4MSS.
4MSS is a thing on certain mons, but when i was first starting, it took me a while to understand the difference between 4MSS and "3 moves and a coverage option of your choice." Sometimes, you can figure out the "most likely" option based on the rest of the opposing team (and you can even then STILL be wrong and severely punished for it).
does NOT have 4MSS. On the grassy terrain teams, you know it will typically run: Swords Dance, Dire Claw or Gunk Shot (Poison Stab of player preference), Close Combat, and then move four is completely open. It can be any of the aforementioned options, or none of them. It could be tera blast tera fire to dodge burns, resists iron head, and have stab super-effective coverage on corv (don't do this).
My point is simple - doesn't present most teams with enough time in-game to determine what it's fourth move might be. And by the time you see it, you might have already lost your way to answer it.
Most of the time, you can assume that the fourth move is coverage for ghost types. But you don't KNOW that until that move is clicked. A wide move pool of options is not 4MSS. It's only when it has too many answers and needs to choose which checks and counters it wants to beat.
doesn't have that problem, because it's STAB is good against everything except ghosts and poison types. It's last move is filler.
and 4MSS. 4MSS is a thing on certain mons, but when i was first starting, it took me a while to understand the difference between 4MSS and "3 moves and a coverage option of your choice." Sometimes, you can figure out the "most likely" option based on the rest of the opposing team (and you can even then STILL be wrong and severely punished for it).
does NOT have 4MSS. On the grassy terrain teams, you know it will typically run: Swords Dance, Dire Claw or Gunk Shot (Poison Stab of player preference), Close Combat, and then move four is completely open. It can be any of the aforementioned options, or none of them. It could be tera blast tera fire to dodge burns, resists iron head, and have stab super-effective coverage on corv (don't do this).My point is simple -
doesn't present most teams with enough time in-game to determine what it's fourth move might be. And by the time you see it, you might have already lost your way to answer it. Most of the time, you can assume that the fourth move is coverage for ghost types. But you don't KNOW that until that move is clicked. A wide move pool of options is not 4MSS. It's only when it has too many answers and needs to choose which checks and counters it wants to beat.
doesn't have that problem, because it's STAB is good against everything except ghosts and poison types. It's last move is filler.
poison stab replaces CC not the anti ghold move. You desperately need the anti gholdengo move and can't afford to not run it. also I'm tired of saying this, stop running dire claw, either run gunk shot or don't run a poison move. More often than not, you will not be haxing through fat with just sneasler so stop trying to do that. Unaware Clefable kinda walls poisonless-sneaslers but also that mon is only ever run on stall teams so you were having a tough time against that squad anywayJust a blurb about
4MSS is a thing on certain mons, but when i was first starting, it took me a while to understand the difference between 4MSS and "3 moves and a coverage option of your choice." Sometimes, you can figure out the "most likely" option based on the rest of the opposing team (and you can even then STILL be wrong and severely punished for it).
My point is simple -
Most of the time, you can assume that the fourth move is coverage for ghost types. But you don't KNOW that until that move is clicked. A wide move pool of options is not 4MSS. It's only when it has too many answers and needs to choose which checks and counters it wants to beat.
I feel like this is shitty trollbait but whatever, I'll bite.
Let's pick one set. Tera Ghost Sneasler with Swords Dance, Gunk Shot, Close Combat, and Shadow Claw.
Defensive Dengo?
+2 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Sneasler Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 374-444 (98.9 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Nope.
Zapdos?
+2 252+ Atk Tera Dark Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 438-516 (114 - 134.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Nope.
Defensive Tusk?
+2 252+ Atk Tera Dark Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 256-303 (58.9 - 69.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
But wait! What can defensive tusk do in return?
0 Atk Great Tusk Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Grassy Seed Tera Dark Sneasler in Grassy Terrain: 69-82 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Nope. Your Tusk is set up fodder!
Corviknight?
+2 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Sneasler Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 300-354 (75.1 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
A little bit of chip and you're dead. And what can Corv do in return?
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Grassy Seed Tera Ghost Sneasler: 117-138 (38.8 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Nope. That's a dead bird.
Defensive Lando-T?
0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Grassy Seed Tera Ghost Sneasler in Grassy Terrain: 76-90 (25.2 - 29.9%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Nope. Your Lando is set up fodder!
Moltres?
+2 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Sneasler Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 333-393 (86.9 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
Good luck keeping your Moltres from taking 10% chip over the course of the match.
ehhhh.... nope.
"Tera" Clef?
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tera Ghost Sneasler: 118-141 (39.2 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
Seriously, what can Clef do to this thing? I guess you could Tera Steel and try to Encore it into Gunk Shot? But Sneasler doesn't need to Gunk Shot, because
+2 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Sneasler Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 220-261 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
That's a nope from me dawg.
Dondozo?
Finally a real counter. Guess what else Sneasler teams run? That's right, Rillaboom.
Toxapex?
Guess who else gets messed up by Rillaboom. And I think you're in pretty bad straits if you're resorting to Pex, blud is suboptimal B on the VR on a good day.
Hotel?
Trivago.
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OK my hot take here is while the surveys are appreciated, this one was sort of pointless. It's essentially the same as the last one, but now that Gliscor is gone, everything has just moved up one ranking for everybody. It is no surprise to anyone that Gholdengo, Sneasler, and Gambit are ranked highly. I really appreciate the effort by Finchinator to keep the community involved, but I also trust the council to take action. Unless this survey results in a quickban, it just delays fixing the meta.
the dire claw hax is actually game-changing and has its merits over an 80% accurate move so i think dire claw is worth running actually, especially considering you actually get walled by dondozo without haxxing it w/ sleep or paralysis. its part of why sneasler is so overwhelming, defensive counterplay becomes incredibly volatile and inconsistent when your sneasler check just gets put to sleep out of nowhere
The counterargument for the Stall/Balance fall off is that Gholdengo is WHY they fell off since putting it on your team gives you a Balance Breaker when that's almost never the reason you chose to use it given it does 15 other jobs in the tier.
The argument against Gholdengo is that rather than being a Stallbreaker that you run to improve the match-up at the expense of other playstyles, it's a stupid powerful Glue/Breaker that also shuts those playstyles down as a "minor" bonus. When a Pokemon is low cost to run yet completely invalidates one of the macro-category Playstyles, that feels like cause for concern, especially when a recurring sentiment is that the tier is pushing HO through a ton of other factors already.
I made this comparison before, it reminds me a bit of Aegislash in Gen 6, where its typing and massive-effective statline meant that on top of being a Spinblocker or a wallbreaker or a Stallbreaker by set, running it would almost instantly shut down the majority of Balance and Offensive teams because they had to run suboptimal coverage moves to break through its typing in general (Mega Heracross, a giant Fighting/Bug Wallbreaker, had to run Earthquake over an actual STAB to not get hard-stopped, for one example). Balance and Stall are not rendered inert in SV OU by "Gholdengo running this set/this core" they're kneecapped by "Gholdengo exists on 30% of teams whether they do or not"
I respectfully disagree with this a lot.
Gliscor ban has shifted a ton ranging from incremental moveset shifts like Ice Spinner’s fall in popularity to outright personnel changes involving other Ground types and Flying types seeing more usage. We have seen a renaissance of Sneasler and Grassy Terrain teams continued to see an uptick, Zapdos is quickly soaring up viability charts in my mind, and plenty of other smaller players are either being used more or at least within different applications. And Gliscor had advantages into specific Sneasler and Gholdengo sets, too, so there’s direct stuff as well.
We have been under fire before many times for not surveying too much after prior bans, especially when quickbans are on the table — and it’s possible they are now. It is important to establish expectations and let the metagame reset, meaning that the cadence we had established has been repeated here and the metagame has had a few days to now reset. Realistically some people on council didn’t even want to survey or act yet, so the fact that we even have action on the table and a survey out alone is good. Not having one and then expecting action isn’t realistic. Quite frankly normally at this stage with DLC2 a month out, we normally would wrap things up and not move much more, but I want to stick with my promise to keep focus and improvement on the current metagame, so yea.
The issue with donbozo is that he's also tasked with checking a lot of other things and also just gets owned by most special attackers. Dire Claw has its merits but I prefer consistent couterplay to the bozo over relying on hax
I totally see what you're saying but I think the changes to the meta you listed were fairly predicted, like I said, Sneasler and Ghold being the next tow pokemon for potential action was indicated in the previous survey and will likely be the result of this one. I understand that there are minute changes to the meta surrounding that, but I don't think that necessarily contradicts my point.
As for people being mad about the lack of surveying before QBs, that's fair and comes down to how the council wants to govern. I personally think the worst impact from the Volcarona QB wasn't that it didn't deserve to be banned, but it slowed tiering action down (see Ursaluna BM getting suspected). I trust your (and the rest of the councils) opinion on whats best for the meta over my own though, so if this is the pace you all think is best, so be it. Again I appreciate your efforts for constant meta improvement.
Edit: I also like the add that a lot fo my opinion stems from my belief the meta needs several bans to be balanced/more enjoyable.
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To all the Gholdengo apologist out there; what meta ending threats does Gholdengo keep in check that other Pokemon can’t? The one I see most often brought up is Iron Valiant, but I feel like there is a whole host of Pokemon that can check Valiant decently. Poison types like Amoongus, Toxapex, GKing, Clodsire all can check Valiant fairly well. forcing Valiant to run Psyshock/Tbolt which can hamper its utility by not being able to run Encore/DBond/Knock. Idk, I’m not the greatest player, but Gholdengo seems to hamper more than it provides.
Its more so that gholdengo keeps entire styles in check. Its really good vs fat especially with covert cloak. I think that without it we would see a major stall/ semi stall takeover because garg and dozo are amazing new tools for fat that a lot of wallbreakers struggle with. I dont want to play another meta where its unkillable fat vs unkillable fat for 3000 years like it was in the gliscor meta, which is why I personally gave gholdengo a 2.
Edit: or maybe a 3 i dont remmember
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