.............. Just find a way to make it work. If it works, then thats great. HF.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]
- Thread starter Rio Vidal
- Start date
my quick grass vr for now
one of the best revenge killers in the whole tier let alone grass, makes the endgame easy for you in almost every matchup. if you've played enough mono you know what this mon does
the best ogerpon due to ice neutrality, fairy resist, wow immunity, and beating up steels. S-tier because it's broken
i may be biased because of ladder players letting this thing sweep every game but sinistcha carries a lot of mus for you like fighting and poison. he is a physical tank that doesn't waste momentum, which is necessary for a frail type like grass
sweeps a lot of types. grass/ground is amazing offensively as well. good natural bulk and poison neutrality lets him set up more than you would think he could. still loses to scarfers though lol
maybe controversial opinion because he's deadweight in a couple matchups like poison, but he also fucks up some hard matchups just by clicking mach punch. ice and dark are the main examples. generally in most matchups the ability to click mach punch and take a fat load off of offensive mons makes him do something. also his other moves can do a fuck ton especially from a band, and he always has tricks up his sleeve like sash spore
fucked up how much damage this thing does and even more fucked up how broken its movepool is. unless you have ghold you are almost never safe from a lategame lilli sweep
he is not it. unlike sinistcha he slows the game down to a crawl, which you cant afford as grass. he also doesnt wall shit hes supposed to half the time, and does nothing back. eject button sets are pretty great when they work, but it can backfire on you easily. that being said eject button is pretty strong as a one-time free switch, and he does have good resists, so i'll keep him at B rank
pure grass isnt the best, nerfed grassy glide isnt the best, but when it comes down to it rillaboom still has a strong priority move and damn those wood hammers hurt. high horsepower is also huge for hitting stuff like glowking. sadly he can easily become deadweight due to being strapped for moves, but when he works he works well
say whatever you want but shaymin is a TROOPER!!! not a single thing wants to be hit by seed flare, and he has excellent coverage to back it up as well. he has high natural bulk, letting him tank most neutral hits and fire back. he can also absorb status and heal up, which is great when your team is almost all physical and dies to wow. he struggles against flying, and he does have 4mss, but he puts in consistent work in most matchups. believe in him
im not 100% sure on this but fairy typing is a godsend. fast speed is amazing and so is prankster. it has a lot of tools to come beat your ass supportively with encore, tailwind, stun spore, even memento. if it had higher spa, then a specs set would be pretty good, but it's too weak for this meta
i love mowtom and he's my guy from pre-dlc but he just cant do it like he used to. his meh bulk and speed tier prevent him from being a setup sweeper, and he isn't strong or fast enough to use scarf well anymore. he also wants to run all of leaf storm, volt switch, wow, trick, and tbolt/discharge on scarf, and getting rid of any of them hurts. this being said electric/grass is really good and he has good utility moves so i dont wanna drop him more
i fucking hate this guy. all he can do is be a mediocre suicide lead. on grass, a type strapped for slots at all times, its really costly to run a mon just to get up 1-2 layers of spikes, even if he does his job consistently enough. he leaves you 5v6 vs some of your hardest matchups like flying and dark, and he can literally be 1v1ed by the hazard removal themselves without much trouble on their part. however, despite my personal disdain of this mon, i can never rank him D when he is the best hazard setter and spinner on a type with neither of those otherwise. also poltergeist can pack a punch vs the mons that arent as bulky. i still hate him though
still think it should be C and not D. sturdy ends up not mattering that many times due to lack of a spinner, but if cornerstone is at full health it's a MENACE and can 1v1 anything. it's also a bigger trooper than hearthflame in some of the scary matchups, like fire and flying, and even when it isnt, its damage output is still ogerpon level so its not like you're missing out on any of that. still C-rank though because hearthflame is better in the more common scenarios
i thought it was gonna suck but it was better than i thought. offensive sets are a waste of time but screen setter is pretty good. screens are obviously great for a type with this many setup sweepers, and serperior is a good setter of them since it's fast, strong and can paralyze
toedscruel is not a hidden gem, that ability is trash. i was gonna D-rank him but hes alright due to decent typing and high special bulk as well as spikes and spin of course. fast spin is especially great to have on a type as weak to hazards as grass is
i remember when i thought he was gonna be B-rank. unfortunately hydrapple's defensive typing is the worst and so is his speed. it's hard for him to take advantage of his dumb ass signature move as well as his bulk due to these traits. i still dream about +2 lo fickle beam ohkoing corvikinght in a real game though. his main draw is av which has insane bulk and tanks stuff like blood moon and +1 volc flamethrower without even caring. his problem is that the awful defensive type means he doesnt even tank most special threats because hes weak to their stabs. if he wasnt dragon he would be better
i will NEVER defend abomasnow. there are some mons that look bad but are actually good like articuno. abomasnow is not one of those mons. it's got a shitty ass typing, awful stats, and it has to run light clay so hazards fuck it over immensely. it can never heal the damage off of those hazards either since its strapped for movesets. its also passive as fuck because it has a whole 92 special attack, so if it doesnt hit super effective its doing like 31%. people like to say it "beats ice" when it cant switch in on any of the offensive core besides mamo and straight up loses to bax in a 1v1. i mean body press doesnt even ohko pao. theres even a better screens setter now in serperior. i would UR him if he didnt answer some trouble mons like mamo and cloy
listen. webs is really good because it stops the opponent from properly answering your offensive threats and i think it's worth a rank. however no one will take it seriously because the setter is fucking leavanny. leavanny isnt the worst though and it has stuff like scarf switcheroo, knock off, and a lunge that becomes really scary with swarm. i never tried swadloon but im just gonna assume its not good
it's a defogger that beats gholdengo. as far as im concerned there are barely any pokemon on grass that can do one of the two, let alone both. therefore it seems worth it to rank him
same problems as abomasnow, he's way too vulnerable to chip damage for a wall and has an awful typing. he is a lot less weak to hazards since it can afford to heal itself, however he also destroys momentum way more than abomasnow does. same benefits as abomasnow, he is
D-rank due to handling a few trouble pokemon. the certain pokemon depend on the set but he can beat stuff like ghold, latios, iron crown, and gambit
i almost didnt rank this guy because his fucking typing means he cant set up on anything and he gets revenge killed like its nothing, so its super hard to sweep with him. i ranked him anyway because when you consider it he is pretty strong with an sd and his stab hits fighting and poison which is important. he has a good speed tier as well. pokemon is never black and white in matchups, and if iron leaves can find an opening to get a free SD, such as on a switch read, a lot of types lack a good switch-in. he clearly has a purpose and isnt useless beyond the purpose so i think D rank is fine for him
im so sorry i said you had a niche in my other post... virizion just gets outdone by loom and h-lilli due to having the exact same coverage as them. if he could beat ghold he would be great but he cant
i wanna rank this guy cause he clearly has something but i dont know what the fuck it is. band? scarf? sd jungle? i want him to find a niche to settle in before i start saying how good he is.
one of the best revenge killers in the whole tier let alone grass, makes the endgame easy for you in almost every matchup. if you've played enough mono you know what this mon does the best ogerpon due to ice neutrality, fairy resist, wow immunity, and beating up steels. S-tier because it's broken i may be biased because of ladder players letting this thing sweep every game but sinistcha carries a lot of mus for you like fighting and poison. he is a physical tank that doesn't waste momentum, which is necessary for a frail type like grass sweeps a lot of types. grass/ground is amazing offensively as well. good natural bulk and poison neutrality lets him set up more than you would think he could. still loses to scarfers though lol maybe controversial opinion because he's deadweight in a couple matchups like poison, but he also fucks up some hard matchups just by clicking mach punch. ice and dark are the main examples. generally in most matchups the ability to click mach punch and take a fat load off of offensive mons makes him do something. also his other moves can do a fuck ton especially from a band, and he always has tricks up his sleeve like sash spore fucked up how much damage this thing does and even more fucked up how broken its movepool is. unless you have ghold you are almost never safe from a lategame lilli sweep he is not it. unlike sinistcha he slows the game down to a crawl, which you cant afford as grass. he also doesnt wall shit hes supposed to half the time, and does nothing back. eject button sets are pretty great when they work, but it can backfire on you easily. that being said eject button is pretty strong as a one-time free switch, and he does have good resists, so i'll keep him at B rank pure grass isnt the best, nerfed grassy glide isnt the best, but when it comes down to it rillaboom still has a strong priority move and damn those wood hammers hurt. high horsepower is also huge for hitting stuff like glowking. sadly he can easily become deadweight due to being strapped for moves, but when he works he works well say whatever you want but shaymin is a TROOPER!!! not a single thing wants to be hit by seed flare, and he has excellent coverage to back it up as well. he has high natural bulk, letting him tank most neutral hits and fire back. he can also absorb status and heal up, which is great when your team is almost all physical and dies to wow. he struggles against flying, and he does have 4mss, but he puts in consistent work in most matchups. believe in him im not 100% sure on this but fairy typing is a godsend. fast speed is amazing and so is prankster. it has a lot of tools to come beat your ass supportively with encore, tailwind, stun spore, even memento. if it had higher spa, then a specs set would be pretty good, but it's too weak for this meta i love mowtom and he's my guy from pre-dlc but he just cant do it like he used to. his meh bulk and speed tier prevent him from being a setup sweeper, and he isn't strong or fast enough to use scarf well anymore. he also wants to run all of leaf storm, volt switch, wow, trick, and tbolt/discharge on scarf, and getting rid of any of them hurts. this being said electric/grass is really good and he has good utility moves so i dont wanna drop him more i fucking hate this guy. all he can do is be a mediocre suicide lead. on grass, a type strapped for slots at all times, its really costly to run a mon just to get up 1-2 layers of spikes, even if he does his job consistently enough. he leaves you 5v6 vs some of your hardest matchups like flying and dark, and he can literally be 1v1ed by the hazard removal themselves without much trouble on their part. however, despite my personal disdain of this mon, i can never rank him D when he is the best hazard setter and spinner on a type with neither of those otherwise. also poltergeist can pack a punch vs the mons that arent as bulky. i still hate him though still think it should be C and not D. sturdy ends up not mattering that many times due to lack of a spinner, but if cornerstone is at full health it's a MENACE and can 1v1 anything. it's also a bigger trooper than hearthflame in some of the scary matchups, like fire and flying, and even when it isnt, its damage output is still ogerpon level so its not like you're missing out on any of that. still C-rank though because hearthflame is better in the more common scenarios i thought it was gonna suck but it was better than i thought. offensive sets are a waste of time but screen setter is pretty good. screens are obviously great for a type with this many setup sweepers, and serperior is a good setter of them since it's fast, strong and can paralyze toedscruel is not a hidden gem, that ability is trash. i was gonna D-rank him but hes alright due to decent typing and high special bulk as well as spikes and spin of course. fast spin is especially great to have on a type as weak to hazards as grass is i remember when i thought he was gonna be B-rank. unfortunately hydrapple's defensive typing is the worst and so is his speed. it's hard for him to take advantage of his dumb ass signature move as well as his bulk due to these traits. i still dream about +2 lo fickle beam ohkoing corvikinght in a real game though. his main draw is av which has insane bulk and tanks stuff like blood moon and +1 volc flamethrower without even caring. his problem is that the awful defensive type means he doesnt even tank most special threats because hes weak to their stabs. if he wasnt dragon he would be better i will NEVER defend abomasnow. there are some mons that look bad but are actually good like articuno. abomasnow is not one of those mons. it's got a shitty ass typing, awful stats, and it has to run light clay so hazards fuck it over immensely. it can never heal the damage off of those hazards either since its strapped for movesets. its also passive as fuck because it has a whole 92 special attack, so if it doesnt hit super effective its doing like 31%. people like to say it "beats ice" when it cant switch in on any of the offensive core besides mamo and straight up loses to bax in a 1v1. i mean body press doesnt even ohko pao. theres even a better screens setter now in serperior. i would UR him if he didnt answer some trouble mons like mamo and cloy listen. webs is really good because it stops the opponent from properly answering your offensive threats and i think it's worth a rank. however no one will take it seriously because the setter is fucking leavanny. leavanny isnt the worst though and it has stuff like scarf switcheroo, knock off, and a lunge that becomes really scary with swarm. i never tried swadloon but im just gonna assume its not good it's a defogger that beats gholdengo. as far as im concerned there are barely any pokemon on grass that can do one of the two, let alone both. therefore it seems worth it to rank him same problems as abomasnow, he's way too vulnerable to chip damage for a wall and has an awful typing. he is a lot less weak to hazards since it can afford to heal itself, however he also destroys momentum way more than abomasnow does. same benefits as abomasnow, he is D-rank due to handling a few trouble pokemon. the certain pokemon depend on the set but he can beat stuff like ghold, latios, iron crown, and gambit
i almost didnt rank this guy because his fucking typing means he cant set up on anything and he gets revenge killed like its nothing, so its super hard to sweep with him. i ranked him anyway because when you consider it he is pretty strong with an sd and his stab hits fighting and poison which is important. he has a good speed tier as well. pokemon is never black and white in matchups, and if iron leaves can find an opening to get a free SD, such as on a switch read, a lot of types lack a good switch-in. he clearly has a purpose and isnt useless beyond the purpose so i think D rank is fine for him im so sorry i said you had a niche in my other post... virizion just gets outdone by loom and h-lilli due to having the exact same coverage as them. if he could beat ghold he would be great but he cant i wanna rank this guy cause he clearly has something but i dont know what the fuck it is. band? scarf? sd jungle? i want him to find a niche to settle in before i start saying how good he is.
gonna drop my personal Grass VR here (ty AV Cosmoem for the idea)
Probably one of, if not the only, reasons to use Grass right now, is Ogerpon-H. SD sets can take games away and it helps immensely with matchups Grass would struggle with otherwise.
Like Cosmoem said, Meow provides Grass with essential speed control, does well vs. types like Psychic, and can make permanent progress at any game state.
Nearly always wins the game if it gets a Shell Smash off, although doing that can be difficult. Low-risk mon that gives insane reward if successfully pulled off, which is why it's in A tier.
Big supporter of this mon, can be hard to fit at times but is good against lots of types. You're never really safe from this mon; it hits insanely hard and Victory Dance is very broken.
Contrary to Cosmoem's reasoning, Amoonguss can either provide very easy entry for one of your dangerous sweepers like Ogerpon-H, Torterra, or Hisuian Lilligant or become a key part of the defensive backbone. Being able to reliably put opponents to sleep is incredible for the type as well. Sure, it can be a bit of a momentum sink, but I'd argue you need this type of momentum sink.
I'm sorry Cosmoem, but that placement is just wrong in my eyes. Sure, it's slow as all hell, but it's immensely bulky with Assault Vest, has good offensive threat potential, and pairs very well with Amoonguss on the defensive core. Its Fire neutrality, with reliable recovery, is also very appreciated.
Feels like this thing lost a bit of its utility seeing that Grass can now reliably be a balance type with Hydrapple's addition, but it's still very useful in catalyzing setup sweepers (which Grass has no shortage of). It can actually take on Chien-Pao if SpA invested, and I doubt you're not leading this to set up Aurora Veil (so hazards aren't too big of an issue). Perhaps it's my personal experience, but this mon has done a lot for me.
Besides Mach Punch, I feel that this is generally outclassed by Hisuian Lilligant. However, Mach Punch is such a big draw that I'd put it in B-tier. It feels clunky to use against certain types, though, and I generally prefer Hilligant if I fit a Grass/Fighting on a build.
Grass is somewhat weak to hazards as not many things run HDB - therefore, using its only hazard removal tool is a good choice. It doesn't do much besides removing hazards and setting Spikes; however, that niche is enough to warrant B-tier in my eyes.
Going to disagree with Cosmoem here; while Sinistcha can do decently enough in the Poison and Fighting matchups, Amoonguss still has around the same level of utility in those matchups. Sure, Strength Sap is nice, but Amoonguss just has more defensive utility, unfortunately for Sinistcha.
The Grassy Glide nerf hit it hard - it still has its wallbreaking power and having Grassy Terrain boost its teammates' STAB moves is nice, but its defensive utility is almost non-existent and it struggles to find its place over stuff like Hisuian Lilligant or Breloom.
While I do prefer Firepon, Rockpon finds its niche as a good counter to Fire- and Flying-types. I agree that Sturdy usually doesn't matter - however, if you can get this in at full health, it trades 1 for 1 at the very least. Decent mon, but just overshadowed by Ogerpon-H.
This thing does nearly nothing into a lot of MUs (ahem, Dark) but against Fighting and Poison, it can be a good threat. Don't use it much, so I can't really say what its utility is like, but it has a few good traits that salvage it.
I'll take Cosmoem's argument for it, but Seed Flare being as spammable as it is doesn't fully excuse how useless this mon is otherwise.
Very hard to fit and is generally outclassed by Abomasnow, but it has some decent utility that sets it apart from our favorite Christmas tree. Glare is always nice, and Contrary Leaf Storms hit hard, but besides those two things I just don't see it working. It's kind of like Shaymin: one very spammable, very good attack, and then mediocrity everywhere else.
I really don't see what Mycelium Might offers besides being able to Spore Gholdengo, nor does its defensive typing do much, but it has a decent niche of being able to threaten a couple of Steel-types, have great special bulk, and set/remove hazards just like Brambleghast.
Decent into the Fighting MU and Prankster gives it a nice niche, but I don't see it on many Grass teams and find it outclassed.
Sure, it can do okay into Flying teams, but it does zero against most other types that something else would do. Volt Switch isn't bad, though, so I'll be generous and give it C-tier.
Ok, you've set Webs. How does this help you? I don't know. I guess you slow down Choice Scarfers that can otherwise revenge kill Ogerpon-H...? Oh, Scarf Lando floats above Webs and Scarf Sneasler still outspeeds after the Webs drop. Webs isn't that good on Grass, and if you're running this for anything other than Webs support, I don't know what to say to you.
Sure, it can Defog while threatening Gholdengo, but it does literally nothing else over the other two Grass/Fightings.
Same issues as Decidueye, but it can't even threaten Gholdengo or remove hazards.
Very mediocre wall - your only source of recovery is Leftovers and potentially Leech Seed, and your defensive typing isn't even that good. Next.
Probably one of, if not the only, reasons to use Grass right now, is Ogerpon-H. SD sets can take games away and it helps immensely with matchups Grass would struggle with otherwise. Like Cosmoem said, Meow provides Grass with essential speed control, does well vs. types like Psychic, and can make permanent progress at any game state. Nearly always wins the game if it gets a Shell Smash off, although doing that can be difficult. Low-risk mon that gives insane reward if successfully pulled off, which is why it's in A tier. Big supporter of this mon, can be hard to fit at times but is good against lots of types. You're never really safe from this mon; it hits insanely hard and Victory Dance is very broken. Contrary to Cosmoem's reasoning, Amoonguss can either provide very easy entry for one of your dangerous sweepers like Ogerpon-H, Torterra, or Hisuian Lilligant or become a key part of the defensive backbone. Being able to reliably put opponents to sleep is incredible for the type as well. Sure, it can be a bit of a momentum sink, but I'd argue you need this type of momentum sink. I'm sorry Cosmoem, but that placement is just wrong in my eyes. Sure, it's slow as all hell, but it's immensely bulky with Assault Vest, has good offensive threat potential, and pairs very well with Amoonguss on the defensive core. Its Fire neutrality, with reliable recovery, is also very appreciated. Feels like this thing lost a bit of its utility seeing that Grass can now reliably be a balance type with Hydrapple's addition, but it's still very useful in catalyzing setup sweepers (which Grass has no shortage of). It can actually take on Chien-Pao if SpA invested, and I doubt you're not leading this to set up Aurora Veil (so hazards aren't too big of an issue). Perhaps it's my personal experience, but this mon has done a lot for me. Besides Mach Punch, I feel that this is generally outclassed by Hisuian Lilligant. However, Mach Punch is such a big draw that I'd put it in B-tier. It feels clunky to use against certain types, though, and I generally prefer Hilligant if I fit a Grass/Fighting on a build. Grass is somewhat weak to hazards as not many things run HDB - therefore, using its only hazard removal tool is a good choice. It doesn't do much besides removing hazards and setting Spikes; however, that niche is enough to warrant B-tier in my eyes. Going to disagree with Cosmoem here; while Sinistcha can do decently enough in the Poison and Fighting matchups, Amoonguss still has around the same level of utility in those matchups. Sure, Strength Sap is nice, but Amoonguss just has more defensive utility, unfortunately for Sinistcha. The Grassy Glide nerf hit it hard - it still has its wallbreaking power and having Grassy Terrain boost its teammates' STAB moves is nice, but its defensive utility is almost non-existent and it struggles to find its place over stuff like Hisuian Lilligant or Breloom. While I do prefer Firepon, Rockpon finds its niche as a good counter to Fire- and Flying-types. I agree that Sturdy usually doesn't matter - however, if you can get this in at full health, it trades 1 for 1 at the very least. Decent mon, but just overshadowed by Ogerpon-H. This thing does nearly nothing into a lot of MUs (ahem, Dark) but against Fighting and Poison, it can be a good threat. Don't use it much, so I can't really say what its utility is like, but it has a few good traits that salvage it. I'll take Cosmoem's argument for it, but Seed Flare being as spammable as it is doesn't fully excuse how useless this mon is otherwise. Very hard to fit and is generally outclassed by Abomasnow, but it has some decent utility that sets it apart from our favorite Christmas tree. Glare is always nice, and Contrary Leaf Storms hit hard, but besides those two things I just don't see it working. It's kind of like Shaymin: one very spammable, very good attack, and then mediocrity everywhere else. I really don't see what Mycelium Might offers besides being able to Spore Gholdengo, nor does its defensive typing do much, but it has a decent niche of being able to threaten a couple of Steel-types, have great special bulk, and set/remove hazards just like Brambleghast. Decent into the Fighting MU and Prankster gives it a nice niche, but I don't see it on many Grass teams and find it outclassed. Sure, it can do okay into Flying teams, but it does zero against most other types that something else would do. Volt Switch isn't bad, though, so I'll be generous and give it C-tier. Ok, you've set Webs. How does this help you? I don't know. I guess you slow down Choice Scarfers that can otherwise revenge kill Ogerpon-H...? Oh, Scarf Lando floats above Webs and Scarf Sneasler still outspeeds after the Webs drop. Webs isn't that good on Grass, and if you're running this for anything other than Webs support, I don't know what to say to you. Sure, it can Defog while threatening Gholdengo, but it does literally nothing else over the other two Grass/Fightings. Same issues as Decidueye, but it can't even threaten Gholdengo or remove hazards. Very mediocre wall - your only source of recovery is Leftovers and potentially Leech Seed, and your defensive typing isn't even that good. Next.
Why are we doing VRs for an irrelevant type in a metagame less than a week old lmfao
Anyway, want to talk about my new favourite move in SV:
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind
Same old Hatterene set as always for the most part, but now Psychic Noise can let you more easily 1v1 Articuno, opposing Hatterene, Quagsire, Zapdos, Gliscor, and so on.
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Draining Kiss
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
With Liquid Voice, Psychic Noise is changed into a Water-type STAB move. Physically defensive Primarina has a solid niche in this metagame already as an answer to foes like Baxcalibur, Gouging Fire, and Chien-Pao, and Psychic Noise helps further enable this by cutting off Gouging Fire from Morning Sun. It also notably allows Primarina to 1v1 Toxapex, Corviknight, Amoonguss that drop Sludge Bomb, and Gastrodon that use Sticky Hold. One interesting application of Psychic Noise Primarina is that it can actually temporarily wall Ogerpon-H and Ogerpon-C that opt to run Horn Leech as their only Grass STAB if Primarina manages to get a free turn.
Iron Crown @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tachyon Cutter
- Psychic Noise
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
Psychic Noise can be used on an offensive CM set with Iron Crown to allow it to 1v1 Corviknight and Gastrodon despite seemingly not having the coverage to allow for this. This set is notably useful as an anti-Flying pick, with none of the usual Flying core of Gliscor + Corviknight + Scarf Enamorus + Articuno being able to effectively deal with Iron Crown after a CM boost. Power-wise, Iron Crown doesn't suffer much from running Psychic Noise over a stronger option like Psychic, crucially still outrunning and OHKOing Urshifu-R with Psychic Noise at neutral.
Anyway, want to talk about my new favourite move in SV:
PSYCHIC NOISE
For those who don't know, Psychic Noise is a 75 BP move that inflicts Heal Block on hit. The Heal Block effect is extremely useful for breaking through walls like Toxapex, Corviknight, Articuno, and so on, as for two turns they will be completely prevented from healing through any means except via Regenerator. This makes Psychic Noise very strong, effectively serving as a pseudo-Knock Off, pseudo-Taunt, and damaging move all in one, as you cut off walls from Leftovers and recovery moves in one move. The positives of Psychic Noise do not end there; being affected by Heal Block also prevents you from using draining moves such as Giga Drain, Draining Kiss, Bitter Blade, Horn Leech, and so on, meaning that Psychic Noise users have the potential to wall foes such as Amoonguss, Hatterene, and the Ogerpon formes. As a sound move, Psychic Noise further has the benefit of hitting foes behind substitutes, which is fantastic in helping to deal with mons like Articuno, Zapdos, and Spectrier. You may think this opens up you to being walled by Soundproof, but the only viable Soundproof user in the metagame is Kommo-o, who is 4x weak to the Fairy coverage most potential Psychic Noise users should be carrying. Just about the only disadvantage of this move is its lower BP compared to Psychic and Psyshock, but 75 BP is still respectable, and ends up not being too much of a hindrance when utilizing Psychic Noise in conjunction with Calm Mind. Below are some sample sets I have created that demonstrates the move's practical strengths; I encourage people to try these out for themselves and get to grips with this powerful new tool.
Hatterene @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Draining Kiss
- Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind
Same old Hatterene set as always for the most part, but now Psychic Noise can let you more easily 1v1 Articuno, opposing Hatterene, Quagsire, Zapdos, Gliscor, and so on.
Primarina @ Leftovers
Ability: Liquid Voice
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic Noise
- Draining Kiss
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
With Liquid Voice, Psychic Noise is changed into a Water-type STAB move. Physically defensive Primarina has a solid niche in this metagame already as an answer to foes like Baxcalibur, Gouging Fire, and Chien-Pao, and Psychic Noise helps further enable this by cutting off Gouging Fire from Morning Sun. It also notably allows Primarina to 1v1 Toxapex, Corviknight, Amoonguss that drop Sludge Bomb, and Gastrodon that use Sticky Hold. One interesting application of Psychic Noise Primarina is that it can actually temporarily wall Ogerpon-H and Ogerpon-C that opt to run Horn Leech as their only Grass STAB if Primarina manages to get a free turn.
Iron Crown @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tachyon Cutter
- Psychic Noise
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
Psychic Noise can be used on an offensive CM set with Iron Crown to allow it to 1v1 Corviknight and Gastrodon despite seemingly not having the coverage to allow for this. This set is notably useful as an anti-Flying pick, with none of the usual Flying core of Gliscor + Corviknight + Scarf Enamorus + Articuno being able to effectively deal with Iron Crown after a CM boost. Power-wise, Iron Crown doesn't suffer much from running Psychic Noise over a stronger option like Psychic, crucially still outrunning and OHKOing Urshifu-R with Psychic Noise at neutral.
Last edited:
After a week(?) Of playing this metagame, I have come to the following conclusion.
I really do not like Gouging Fire at all.
Of course there is the obligatory, it ruins Mono Poison so I'm naturally biased against it (shocker) but even spreading my wings hasn't shaken the fear of the past this mon puts into me. If this thing gets a boost, it just runs wild (Like finding out this thing has a chance to OKHO Mandibuzz from full in sun after a boost is disgusting.)
But this could just be me failing to adapt to the new, god knows my efforts with Poison have felt like that.
Also if this mon does remain in the tier, is a possible Heat Rock ban possible to put on the table? This thing with 6-7 turns of sun boosting is way too much in my opinion.
I really do not like Gouging Fire at all.
Of course there is the obligatory, it ruins Mono Poison so I'm naturally biased against it (shocker) but even spreading my wings hasn't shaken the fear of the past this mon puts into me. If this thing gets a boost, it just runs wild (Like finding out this thing has a chance to OKHO Mandibuzz from full in sun after a boost is disgusting.)
But this could just be me failing to adapt to the new, god knows my efforts with Poison have felt like that.
Also if this mon does remain in the tier, is a possible Heat Rock ban possible to put on the table? This thing with 6-7 turns of sun boosting is way too much in my opinion.
Last edited:
I was saying this before but if we keep Gouging Fire, Heat Rock 100% needs to go. Still not anywhere near sold on the idea that the mon is overall healthy, and that it should be suspected if not banned.
Not sure if I like the idea of banning an item that’s traditionally hasn’t been the direct issue. Drought is one of the main things fire has going for it and personally I think Gourging Fire can just go on its own. Punishing the entire type for one Pokémon probably isnt the right path. Gourging Fire, complements Sun in conjunction with Proto and other supporting components like Healing Wish Ninetales. Gourging Fire can also run a plethora of sets like DD / Band / Scarf / Morning Sun and its typing is great offensively & defensively.
Having played the new DLC2 metagame for a bit now, I sincerely just wanna say a big fat FUCK YOU to Game Freak. Pokémon battling used to be so much fun with full stall teams, where one game could go on for several hours, and players could truly test their might, determination, and resiliency. It was like a stare-down with your biggest rival that never ended until it did end when you finished his ass off with a fatality. The victor truly came out feeling proud of their accomplishment when a game was won.
Now, with every new release, stall becomes a thing of the past. This current metagame is just horrifying. Except for the Chansey line and Chimecho (gurl, really?), not another Pokémon can learn Heal Bell or Aromatherapy. How in the hell can someone play stall when they can’t heal their Pokémon from poisonous statuses? Recovery moves also got cut in half; Defog is almost as rare as encountering a shiny Pokémon in-game; Toxapex doesn’t learn Scald and Knock Off; and the list goes on.
Pokémon is just nonstop clicking now without any substance. Sad face
Now, with every new release, stall becomes a thing of the past. This current metagame is just horrifying. Except for the Chansey line and Chimecho (gurl, really?), not another Pokémon can learn Heal Bell or Aromatherapy. How in the hell can someone play stall when they can’t heal their Pokémon from poisonous statuses? Recovery moves also got cut in half; Defog is almost as rare as encountering a shiny Pokémon in-game; Toxapex doesn’t learn Scald and Knock Off; and the list goes on.
Pokémon is just nonstop clicking now without any substance. Sad face
Last edited:
Game Freak hates Stall :(
hello everyone its time to vote for the monotype awards ! woooo https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeUorqzuSL59FRdN3T_HVlS0GvX955S0V04xhXMv4a2J9z6fQ/viewform
I feel that Game Freak this generation made an extra effort to nerf defensive play as much as possible without it affecting VGC too much. Here is a list of things they did:
-halved recovery pp
-made heal bell the only cleric move and feel like a signature move
-added a move(psychic noise) that just prevent your opponent from healing(except regenerator)
-added an item(covert cloak) that completely denies secondary status conditions(like salt cure)
-introduced a bunch of things that make hazards easy to setup(like toxic debris ability)
-made rapid spin and defog rare af
-made scald rare af
-made toxic rare af
-made knock off rare af
-made rocks, spikes, and toxic spikes INCREDIBLY widespread and easy to set up
-add 2 moves(stone axe, ceasless edge) that setup hazards while attacking
-introduced a move(shed tail) that allows pokemon to help their teamates avoid status conditions
-introduced 2 moves that changes base power to bypass unaware(rage fist, last resort)
-introduced more physical moves(namely ivy cudgel) that don't make contact
-added a boost that haze cannot remove(protosynthesis and quark drive)
-nerfed the movepool of just about every defensive pokemon we know
-introduced abilties(whatever of rune abilties) that just decrease your stats regardless
-made the generational mechanic incredibly unfriendly to most defensive pokemon who love their original typings(except maybe like garg and blissey)
MOST IMPORTANTLY, they made a pokemon that is just a huge middle finger to stall itself: gholdengo. This shit has 133 base special attack, an ability that just prevents status in every way possible, nasty plot, RECOVER, and one of the most potent dual types ever.
On a more serious tone, although these changes sound horrible on the surface for people that want to play more defensive teams, it ultimately did not kill the playstyle. Defensive play is still a crucial part of the meta. There are still a lot of mons that are capable of running defensive sets and a lot of defensive backbones still exist. It's just that the way defense is played this gen is a lot more different from what we are used to.
Last edited:
Hello everyone, just a minor update regarding tiering. The council ultimately decided not to have a quickban slate this past weekend as most of us believed that there was nothing concerning enough in the current metagame to warrant immediate tiering action.
However, following the conclusion of MWP we will be conducting a tiering survey to determine if any further action is needed moving forward.
However, following the conclusion of MWP we will be conducting a tiering survey to determine if any further action is needed moving forward.
Are Araquanid or Galvantula must-haves on mono bug now? I imagine water spider is great defensively for bugs but who gets replaced for it on a team slot? Scizor, Volc, Kleavor all want to be there, Forretress is still your hazard control, two slots remaining for any number of Araquanid, Galvantula, Slither Wing, Heracross, Ribombee, etc.
It's a shame Hydrapple didn't end up being Pokemon's first bug/dragon type
It's a shame Hydrapple didn't end up being Pokemon's first bug/dragon type
Araquanid is a must bring, no questions asked. Kleavor alone is not enough to deal with fire as unlike araquanid, kleavor does not resist fire(watter bubble provide that resistance). Second, I galv is not necessary but I feel like is very important to have because it's a great webber that also threatens flying that often just wall you team. For example, against steel, your only option to deal with skarmory/corv is volc which often isn't enough when heatran is backing it up. As for forretress, I believe this is the least needed member. I have had more success spamming HDB rather than spin with forretress because forrestress is very passive. However, it's still a great option to have to free yourself to use other items.
Bug is always gonna have 6 mon problem because it's never enough. However, a fighting type imo is not the most necessary. You have volc for steel and ice, Scizor for rock, and for dark well, ur mono bug. As for normal well, normal sucks so that's not of too large impact.
Just wanted to say that while Araquanid is nice, I don't see it as a must-bring by any means. I wouldn't put too much stock in the Fire resistance, as many of the strongest and most prevalent Fire-types in the metagame (i.e. Ceruledge, Gouging Fire, Ogerpon-H) outspeed Araquanid and can threaten it with their alternative STABs. Araquanid's mediocre defensive profile, low Speed, lack of recovery, and it being practically forced into running HDBs means it will be unable to check these threats in the long-term, and can even struggle to check them in the short-term if they are boosted. This being said, Araquanid still finds a solid niche on Bug as an alternative Sticky Web setter, with its powerful Water STAB being useful in MUs like Fire and Ground, and the Fire resist, burn immunity, and naturally good special bulk can make you more secure against threats such as Volcarona and Moltres.
So then what a bug team would like? I suppose Volc and Scizor are the only “must have”.
+Fighting type (something like Hera or Slither) so that you dont fold to kingambit + can be vital in the steel matchup; can also have priority or moar wallbreak (First Impression Slither lets you "save up" a slot so that you can bring something else other than Lokix, Flam orb Hera does bad things to Poison)
+Kleavor due to its great move in stone axe; Scarf Stone Axe bullies Fire really hard for instance, but Band can be considered too
Ideally, a webber (Ribombee, Galvantula, Araquanid) should exist in the team but if you have a good reason not to, then you can forgo it, and the last slot is up to what matchups you want to deal with (Frosmoth for Flying and Ground, Lokix for Water, Ghost, Psy, and Dark, Ribombee for Fighting, etc.)
With this, possible teams can look like:
Scizor/Volcarona/Slither Wing/Frosmoth/Scarf Kleavor/Ribombee
A "standard" bug that matches up well against types like Flying, Ground, Steel, Fairy, Water, and Dark
Scizor/Volcarona/Heracross/Lokix/Scarf Kleavor/Araquanid
With wallbreakers like Heracross and priority in Lokix, this team is able to handle types like Psychic, Ghost, Poison, and Swift Swim Water. Araquanid + Kleavor means that this team has the best chance against Fire, though the prevalence of Phys attackers means that Zamazenta especially when paired with Keldeo can be trouble for this team.
I hope this helps?
Last edited:
It sure does, i’m not the most appropiate person to say this… but it seems that bug is not in a good position.
As dragon is, and by a wide margin, the most popular type to use on ladder currently, and is almost always running Gouging Fire, I would not recommend using bug (or grass) to attempt to climb ladder, as the matchup is an autoloss unless your opponent misplays or you get lucky with hax.
I get it… also this final dlc hasn’t been kind with bug… as they haven’t recovered ultra beasts but maybe in the future.
I cant believe this bitch stayed legal for this long. I know he probably straggled through cause of DLC or whatever but its still fucked. He gives two of the better types a 6-0 machine that steamrolls whole teams. Let me show you a few of the types he just fucks up with no remorse1.
2.
3.
These are just the examples off the top of my head. Please tell me if i got anything wrong because i dont want to lie forever. Thank you for reading. Also ban wellspring too
Attachments
I think you might be both under and overestimating Pao V Poison.
One of the big things we have is that Geezing is stupidly common (and even if no Geezing, its likely a Weezing) which gives something that can slow Pao down with burn (Since Band Fangs doesn't OKHO). And if it isn't banned, Pao is usually handheld by Pex/Geezing since its generally STAB, Sacred Sword, Priority and SD which gives us a good solid leg up.
Meanwhile Scarf Sneasler isn't really that good of an option sadly. not only do you need the scarf, you also need a secondary Check into Kingambit. You take roughly 40% to a max of 49%, and with the minus defense, any form of Supreme overlord boost has a chance to OKHO you (Three boosts is just an OKHO.) And while yes you could switch out, you also need to still keep hazards off as even if Pao got the low roll and you're at roughly at 60% and at that point Stealth rock chip could just spell the L right there (one layer of Spikes makes this a 100% an L).
God, I actually came to the defense of Chien-Pao, what is wrong with me.
Last edited:
Going to also point out that band Pao is run Jolly, with all the crazy speed tiers, adamant gets outsped by Cinderace, Iron Boulder, Gren, Flutter, etc. Pointing this out because Skarm isn't in fact 2hkod by Band Pao without Hazards.
1. View attachment 584589 Dark and ice are already garbage matchups for this type but pao makes it unwinnable. Band is just a straight loss because grass not only has absolutely no switchin for band ice shard, it has nothing that can even revenge kill band pao because of ice shard. scarf meow is ohkoed , pao lives a grassy glide from even band rilla and 2hkos it, and loom only needs a little chip to be ohkoed. Breloom also doesnt do anything to either type unless he hard reads them more than once. On dark there will be mandi and/or sab on all teams, which both eat mach punch from loom all day and stop bramble from making any progress in the hazard game. On ice he gives a free switch to alotales and he doesnt even ohko pao with band mach punch under snowveil. I didnt even mention boots who has ample chances to SD on mons like amoon trying to take a meow uturn and sweep the whole team
2. View attachment 584593 Unlike grass, flying has a great hazard game, so band cant just come in for free and kill stuff. However band still 2hkos physdef skarm and corv with icicle crash and ohkos the rest with ice shard so lol. Boots is just as scary because one flinch from icicle crash can fuck the whole game up, and he has more opportunity to come in. It is similarly really hard to revenge kill chien-pao with flying because he is naturally faster than everything and ohkos every non-steel. Enamorus is alright since it can threaten the backline, but just like before it gets ohkoed by band shard and needs minimal chip to be ohkoed by boots shard. The best you can do is pray to not get flinched
3. View attachment 584596 Poison has more outs than grass and flying but pao still doesnt have a hard time. First off if its psyfangs pao you lose. Alomuk can be easily removed and then pao has no switchins. If its not psyfangs you have a better chance but it still doesnt have a good time switching in. Pex can be cheesed past with crunch def drops and +2 crunch > +0 crunch will kill after slight chip, or occasionally even without chip (it is pretty hard to chip pex though). Gweezing can be flinched past and can be worn down easily. You can scout band crunch with pex but even then gweezing will be taking 25-30% on the switch which adds up when your only recovery is pain split. Admittedly scarf sneasler can be scary especially on ice, but on dark mandi/sab can wall it, and it cant use switcheroo to get past them or it cant revenge pao anymore. Also a lot of poison teams forgo rocks/spikes so band pao really doesnt have to worry about hazards if alomuk absorbs tspikes. Poison can wall pao on paper but in practice it gets fucked by a little rng from pao
These are just the examples off the top of my head. Please tell me if i got anything wrong because i dont want to lie forever. Thank you for reading. Also ban wellspring too
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Skarmory: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery.
Bulky flying like what WQ runs includes Intimidate Gyara, which is another mon that takes 2 hits.
Obviously Icicle Crash rng is enough to bone fly, but flying doesn't have too bad of a dark mu imo, Enam's offensive pressure will always be rough for dark, and even when you run enamless bulky fly the matchup there isn't really that bad either.
Well if you're really good with imagining things, you can then pretend that gouging fire doesn't exist. Without Gouging Fire, Bug feels way more competitive, as it is right now no point in even pretending to think about the fire/dragon mu. Think Scarf Kleavor + Webs can beat Fire? Guess again, every gouging fire is heavy duty boots and with a protosynthesis speed boost it outspeeds Scarf Kleav even unboosted. Even if you live it's sun boosted fire stab you're still doing only 70% with stone axe and at that point you better hope you have a Lokix to revenge kill and cope that you can win the bug v. fire without your wincon.
I'll say though that I've been back to experimenting with Bug some more and trying out some variations in comp I hadn't used as much before. From games I've played so far, I think just Gouging Fire going is enough to really put Bug back on the map as a decent anti meta or off meta option. Outside of the Bug v. Dragon/Fire, it's really seemed pretty reliable as a whole.
I'll also point out something a bit contradictory to what's been said, in that I don't consider webs bug super necessary. Especially right now it's not helping with the Fire mu, and there are other valid ways to cover the remaining mus. Bug's use of priority helps here as well, as there's first impression users as well as Bullet Punch, making speed control not as big as a concern as other types may experience. Compression in team slots is something Bug loves above all, so figuring out how to answer the meta without anything that could be a potential dead weight is a huge part of it imo.
I still think Gouging is incredibly centralizing, and is a mon that you can effortlessly add to a dragon or fire build to not only help with otherwise bad mus, but get pretty guaranteed 6-0 vs. types that can't handle it in the process. Dragon v. Bug is not anywhere close to an autowin for dragon without it. Similarly, Fire v. Electric would actually be way better for Electric right now if Gouging Fire didn't exist. Even though I consider dragon v. fighting and ghost v. dragon to both be pretty winnable for fighting and ghost, for that to be true you're still required to revolve your build around being able to beat Gouging Fire. Skeledirge, for instance, loses the 1v1 to bulky Gouging Fire if it's not carrying Earth Power unless the opp misplays/misclicks. Similarly, in the short time this mons been present, we'd seen huge increases in scarf draco users across types, largely in part to dragon's dominance and Gouging Fire's presence. Looking at last weeks usage for MWP, Scarf Kyu Ice seems pretty intuitive/natural as a fit, but Scarf Dreigon Dark and Scarf Walking Wake Water seem like direct results of Gouging's presence in the tier at least imo. Maybe we can have disagreement on this topic, but all in all I don't see Gouging Fire as anywhere close to a healthy presence in our metagame, is actively creating very one sided mus which otherwise would be far more of a neutral, and has warped the meta far more than any other mon has.
Based on its unique move, i supposed at first that Game Freak planned Gouging Fire to a be a… “defensive mon”, but GF proved again that sometimes they don’t know what they are actually doing as I haven’t seen nobody either using that move (which amazing IMO), or GF as a defensive option (atleast in mono), and as you have said it’s an amazing sweeper that can give auto-wins in certains MU, let’s see how the council deals with it.
On the other hand, I am glad that you answered my post since the beginning of gen 9 you always have experimented with bug and I was wondering what your thoughts were on the situation of the type in the present meta. I hope you are able to build some teams that work and share them.