Discussion Grassy Seed in SV ZU

[Tuthur]

Grassy Seed spam has risen as one of the most prominent playstyle in SV ZU following the lattest tier shifts which completely reset the metagame. The playstyle consists of running Thwackey alongside multiple Grassy Seed users; these users fit within two categories. First, there are the Unburden Pokemon, in Drifblim, Hitmonlee, and Sceptile that can double their Speed upon switch-in, working akin to Hawlucha in higher tiers. Second, there are bulky Calm Mind / Quiver Dance users such as Galarian Articuno, Alcremie, Uxie, Oricorio-Sensu, Farigiraf, and Dudunsparce, that shift their matchup against physical attackers. While some of these abusers are usually seen as better as the others, it is agreed that the diversity of the abusers makes it quite hard to be prepared for all of them. The centerpiece of the archetype is Thwackey, a NFE with access to a pivoting move, that currently doesn't see play outside dedicated Grassy Seed spam teams, meaning it could probably be replaced by worse options in the archetype such as Arboliva (better stats but no access to U-turn and needs to be hit to set Grassy Terrain up), Grookey (Thwackey with worst stats), and Pincurchin (similar stats, no U-turn, Electric Terrain is worse than Grassy Terrain due to the lack of passive recovery making up for the loss of Leftovers).

Those are still the early stages of the metagame, so there is room for counterplay development. However, if the playstyle remains problematic, ZU needs a route to follow. Pokemon ban should always happen before taking actions on non-Pokemon elements. Some items have been banned throughout the gen in lower tiers, without looking at the individual abusers, in Quick Claw, Light Clay, Damp Rock, and Heat Rock. Luck items, Light Clay, and Weather rocks have a history of being problematic and had PR threads in other gens, but this is not the case for Grassy Seed. To handle things properly, this route was suggested to us:

• Start with the particularly blatantly broken abusers: we just did this by banning Galarian Articuno (broken even outside the playstyle) and the two best Unburden sweepers (Hitmonlee and Sceptile), meaning the tier lost its best Calm Mind options and is stuck with the quite underwhelming Drifblim for Unburden.
• If the playstyle remains problematic, take action on Thwackey.
• If the playstyle is still problematic with substitutes to Thwackey, take action on Grassy Seed (and potentially Electric Seed too).

Is this the correct approach to this situation? Do you see a better route to take?

 

[viet noa]

gm zu

As we discuss the interrogation of Grassy Seed in this current meta, I think it's important for us to look at what's happened in previous history. Nearly three years ago, Grassy Seed was banned from SS ZU. If you're unfamiliar with this time, below is a brief history lesson of Grassy Terrain teams in SS ZU:

A Brief History Lesson

During July 2021, in the midst of the pandemic, ZU saw significant tiering shifts. A variety of threats like Centiskorch , Silvally-Ground , and others were eventually banned during this summer. However, before any of that happened, Grassy Seed was banned from SS ZU. This decision didn't come without controversy, as I believe this was the first (and possibly only) time this item was banned in Smogon history. However, there was an abundant variety of threatening Grassy Seed abusers that often made matching up against them a nightmare.

These sweepers included Galarian Rapidash , Uxie , Swoobat , Thievul , and more. Defensive cores had severely limited options in dealing with Grassy Terrain teams, since the sheer quantity and variety of sweepers left walls like Tangela , Articuno , and more overwhelmed. In addition, revenge killers like Kangaskhan and opposing Thwackey struggled to KO Grassy Seed sweepers due to the Defense boost from the item.

The prowess of these sweepers in tandem with Grassy Seed made keeping up Grassy Terrain a high priority. Grookey , a severely underpowered Pokémon, was seeing genuine consideration for placement on the SS ZU Viability Rankings due to its role as a secondary terrain setter. Furthermore, another Little Cup Pokémon in Cottonee was seeing genuine usage thanks to Prankster Grassy Terrain.

Due to these factors overwhelming the tier, not only were Grassy Terrain teams fairly broken, but players were going to hilarious lengths to optimize Grassy Terrain teams. It's really funny thinking of an Articuno cowering at the sight of a Cottonee, knowing that the Grassy Terrain it sets up could cause havoc later in the game.

While there was some uncertainty regarding Grassy Seed's ban, I was an avid supporter of banning the item.

The reason why I bring this up is because I think a similar thing is happening in this current meta. Obviously, an abuser like Drifblim has the advantage of using Unburden in tandem with Grassy Seed. However, the item's boost of Stored Power also allows sweepers like Farigiraf , Uxie to become extremely difficult to wall. Even when a sweeper doesn't abuse Unburden or Stored Power, simply getting +1 Defense makes it a tall task revenge killing the likes of Sensu Oricorio , Dudunsparce , and more. I think it's thus pretty obvious that even with the very justified bans that have just happened, there are a plethora of Grassy Seed abusers simply waiting to be utilized.

We've always known that Thwackey is unique as both a great terrain setter and a viable Pokémon in its own respect. What makes this interesting is that Arboliva is now another great Grassy Terrain setter. Not only does it set terrain consistently like setters of the past, but it's a perfectly healthy and viable Pokémon too. As a result, if we were to ban Pokémon like Thwackey or Arboliva, I don't think that much would change about the healthiness of having Grassy Terrain teams in SV ZU. I think both Pokémon are widely positive contributors to the metagame, but with Grassy Seed being legal, I think they become seemingly toxic presences.

In 2021, the recognition of Grassy Seed as an unbalanced item in SS ZU caused the item itself to be banned before any item abusers or enablers were prematurely banned. Now in 2024, I think the same approach should be taken here in SV ZU.

 

[Greybaum]

• Start with the particularly blatantly broken abusers: we just did this by banning Galarian Articuno (broken even outside the playstyle) and the two best Unburden sweepers (Hitmonlee and Sceptile), meaning the tier lost its best Calm Mind options and is stuck with the quite underwhelming Drifblim for Unburden.
• If the playstyle remains problematic, take action on Thwackey.
• If the playstyle is still problematic with substitutes to Thwackey, take action on Grassy Seed (and potentially Electric Seed too).

Is this the correct approach to this situation? Do you see a better route to take?

Not really sure why this is in PR and not being asked of tiering staff to be honest. The course you laid out is, to my knowledge, the standard tiering procedure that every official usage-based tier would be held to, so do that if you care about following tiering guidelines. Ultimately ZU is unofficial though so you have the freedom to ban whatever you want instead - there's just no real justification for it from an "official" tiering perspective.

 

[Tuthur]

In 2021, the recognition of Grassy Seed as an unbalanced item in SS ZU caused the item itself to be banned before any item abusers or enablers were prematurely banned. Now in 2024, I think the same approach should be taken here in SV ZU.

The SS ZU precedent is quite bad in my opinion. Back then, it was unclear whether ZU could talk about its issues with Grassy Seed in this forum, as it used to only gather discussions on official tiers (or at least it was how we understand it). It is now clear that this forum is also open to unofficial tiers that still aim to follow the official tiers guidelines. We didn't really know how to handle to the Grassy Seed issue back then, as banning Thwackey / Grassy Surge wouldn't solve the issue as proven by Ho3n and I using Grookey and Cottonee with similar success, and we couldn't agree on an abuser in particular. In retrospect, in my opinion, we should have started with a Swoobat ban and see whether the other abusers, Galarian Rapidash, Thievul, and Drifblim, remained problematic. There could be another PR thread to reeavalute this ban, but I don't believe this thread is the right place to (and I don't really want to open this can of worms).
ZU, as a tier inspiring to become official, aims to stick to their guidelines, which is why getting the Grassy Seed issue handled properly is important.

Not really sure why this is in PR and not being asked of tiering staff to be honest. The course you laid out is, to my knowledge, the standard tiering procedure that every official usage-based tier would be held to, so do that if you care about following tiering guidelines. Ultimately ZU is unofficial though so you have the freedom to ban whatever you want instead - there's just no real justification for it from an "official" tiering perspective.

I did ask a tiering staff before posting (this is the same person who suggested the route mentionned in the OP). I don't understand the hostility, it is not the first PR thread focused on an unofficial tier, and there have been ZU threads already in this forum. ZU is free to not follow official guidelines, but it aims to act accordingly to them, and as such an official tiering perspective is appreciated. The standard tiering procedure for every official usage-based tier is also to start a PR thread for every non-Pokemon element, which is this thread purpose.

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Now onto my opinion on the matter,

Grassy Seed is a unique case as it's neither comparable to turn extension items such as Heat Rock and Light Clay, nor to luck items such as King's Rock and Bride Powder. Though, it is ultimately closer to the former ones due to the playstyle being seen as broken rather than uncompetitive. Grassy Seed makes setup easier which makes it somewhat similar to Light Clay, but the fact Grassy Terrain can be automatically setup with a Thwackey / Arboliva sack and has much smaller spectrum of viable abusers. Dual Screens power up the viability of everything with a setup move, while for Grassy Seed, abusers always fit within two categories: Unburden sweepers with access to a setup move, and Calm Mind / Quiver Dance users (Drifblim fitting in both). This limited scope of abusers and possibility to setup terrain without using a turn makes it quite similar to sun and rain, most specifically Drought and Drizzle bans, which are accepted non-Pokemon bans. This leads me to think banning Grassy Surge could be acceptable, but this would leave Seed Sower free which in my opinion wouldn't be too much of a downgrade. The Electric Seed question could also be very easily solved with a Pincurchin ban, which is another Pokemon ban and is quite odd for a Pokemon that has been ZU since the first days. Banning the item over the abilities seems like the best outcome to me as it would only require one non-Pokemon ban, and doesn't have any undesirable side effect.

I do have a bit of problems with the route listed in the OP. While we already move forward with the first step, it is too early to talk about how the second stage looks like. In theory, Grassy Terrain should be quite nerfed with losing all its physical attackers and being limited to the fringe Drifblim for Unburden (i.e. Speed control). But some of the abusers might be problematic on their own and not just due to Grassy Seed (just like Galarian Articuno), though it might not be blattant (unlike Galarian Articuno). I'm talking about Alcremie and Oricorio-Sensu that are absolute menace due to their unique traits letting them beat some of the most common ways to deal with defensive setup. Alcremie by virtue of its ability and typing is immune to Encore, Taunt, and Dragon Tail, while Oricorio can boost its Speed and has access to Taunt to stop phazing and other status moves. At this point it is hard to tell whether they are only broken with Grassy Seed, or also as standalone sweepers. The other problem I have is that banning Thwackey seems quite unnecessary, Grookey, Arboliva, and Pincurchin are obviously downgrades to it, but they all are terrible standalone Pokemon either way. It feels similar to the Dugtrio situation in SM, where Diglett and Trapinch were obviously much terrible, but still allowed the same strategy with just less effectiveness;

Therefore, I suggest to replace the second step, which was banning Thwackey if things stay problematic, with ban Alcremie / Oricorio-Sensu and see what happens next. If Grassy Seed is still broken, we could ban it and revisit progressively Alcremie, Oricorio-Sensu, Hitmonlee, and Sceptile's bans; otherwise, nothing changes and we've solved our issue with only 4 Pokemon bans, two of them being linked to Pokemon that could probably be broken without it.

 

[sleid]

I agree with the point that we should adhere to official tiering guidelines since ZU is supposed the be the tier directly after PU and is already following other tiering rules, even if we have the ability to choose not to because we are technically a UM. In saying that, the suggested route for how we should proceed with this tiering should be followed as closely as possible if reasonings make sense and are applicable to this specific situation (they may not).

As for Step One, I believe the ZU Council did a fine job with this by choosing to ban the 2 most threatening Grassy Terrain sweepers (Sceptile and Hitmonlee). Swords Dance makes them immediately threatening after just one turn, so this was a no brainer. The likes of Alcremie, Oricorio (we've seen one get banned and then the next up fill its spot immediately), and Mismagius although not as immediately threatening, could become problematic in the future since they all can get around setup deterrent moves like Tuthur mentions above. If these Pokemon continue to excel under Grassy Terrain, the next step should be taken instead of just banning more of the abusers because most of which are not as problematic without this immediate boost (I consider the banning of Pokemon in general to be classified as one whole step in this process).

Instead of banning more Pokemon like Tuthur suggests, I am on the side of just banning the item outright. The banning of Thwackey wouldn't solve much as Arboliva is arguably on par as a terrain setter due to it actually being a viable Pokemon in its own right, at the cost of not being able to immediately set terrain upon entry. Grookey, Cottonee, Electrode-Hisui, etc, would all just take this place to a slightly lesser degree, but as long as there are vessels to set Grassy Terrain, the abusers will still be just as powerful. Banning Grassy Seed allows for an ease of counterplay from physically offensive threats, and makes Pokemon with Unburden and Pokemon who rely on being unkillable stat boosters take another turn to get set up.

As for the aforementioned Electric Seed, I don't think much would be different there. On the surface, most of these terrain sweepers would be just as strong and threatening, except for the smaller nerf to Alcremie, Hitmonlee, and Sceptile not getting the healing that Grassy Terrain provides.

TLDR: We should follow tiering policy to a degree, ZU Council has started on the right foot, next step should be banning Grassy Seed (and possibly Electric Seed), not more mons.

 

[BaitWiz]

Revisiting Grassy Seed

Unburden abusers in ZU have been a pretty contentious topic over the past week and a half with Grafaiai under Grassy Terrain being freed for week 1 of ZU Seasonal, followed up by Sceptile and Hitmonlee being freed for week 2. At this point, I think that if further action is taken, the most reasonable next steps would be banning Grassy Seed and freeing Thwackey, then just banning Unburden outright. I'd also like to look at each of the three Unburden abusers in further depth and explore their potential sets and checks.

Several noteworthy individuals in the tier have valued Grafaiai's potentially positive traits for the tier outside of Unburden abuse - having another viable user of Choice items can always be nice to have, and the many utility options that Grafaiai brings with Prankster and its solid movepool mean it can serve as an excellent offensive pivot for its team as well, Encoring pesky setup sweepers and maintaining momentum with Parting Shot or U-Turn. All of this being said, its Unburden sets have been the most egregious for many since it's arrival at the beginning of the month - being able to so effortlessly set up on almost the entire tier with its bevy of utility moves alongside perfectly reasonable coverage including Gunk Shot, Knock Off, Acrobatics, and Low Kick mean that even though it isn't hitting quite as hard as other abusers, it can certainly do plenty of damage to many different teams. It's worth noting that while Grafaiai can struggle into certain physical walls at times like Sandaconda and Palossand, the ability to use Terastalization alongside Encore lets it completely flip matchups and potentially win games on the spot, a trait it would not have to the same degree if it didn't outpace every Choice Scarf user after Unburden.

Hitmonlee is an extremely powerful abuser of Unburden even without terrain support, but it is also extremely physically frail, a trait that often makes it KO'd by priority from up to half HP - especially without a Grassy Seed bolstering its physical bulk. Furthermore, it struggles to fit everything it wants in its moveset, especially if it isn't being ran on terrain - Hitmonlee can struggle into physical walls like Palossand, Sandaconda, and Qwilfish, the last of which it needs to carry ground coverage to handle reasonably well. Hitmonlee also gets completely walled by Fairy-types without Poison Jab, though admittedly the only reasonably viable Fairy type at the moment pre-Tera is the newly added Whimsicott. Hitmonlee's most defining roles in recent tiers has been as an Unburden sweeper, and unfortunately for it taking on any other role in ZU would often just be a worse version of already existing Pokemon like Passimian and Decidueye.

Sceptile is a unique Unburden abuser within ZU, as it can run a pretty insane variety of sets both with and without Unburden; outside of the typical terrain options with Swords Dance and the appropriate coverage, Sceptile can also fulfill several other roles; whether donning a Choice Specs or Life Orb, annoying the living daylights out of teams with SubSeed, or self activating Unburden with White Herb and Leaf Storm, Sceptile has many options within the tier. Perhaps the single scariest part about Sceptile is this set variety - being able to run viable sets on both sides of the offensive spectrum means it has pretty varied checks, with Qwilfish-H being the only real shared check for both offensive sets - a mon that gets fairly dominated by SubSeed. While Sceptile is definitely the least flashy of the three abusers we're discussing here, I find it to have the most potential for brokenness long term due to its insane set variety.

With everything I've said here, what do I think the best next step is? I think that the most reasonable next step would be one of two options - either you ban Grassy Seed, which maintains Unburden's overall presence within the tier but definitively knocks it down a peg, or you outright ban Unburden, which admittedly drops Hitmonlee's viability off a cliff but solves the overall problem fairly cleanly. As a final note, I've found Psychic Terrain and Electric Terrain to be rather underwhelming compared to Grassy Terrain, but it's also entirely possible that I just haven't found the right team or sets for it yet - regardless, I don't feel that action on Electric or Psychic Seed feels reasonable just yet. If Unburden users on Terrain continue to be overwhelmingly problematic after Grassy Seed's removal, I think that an Unburden ban would be the appropriate next step.