Last edited:
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
Metagame NP: Stage 14 - The Phoenix (Oricorio-Pom-Pom banned post 45)
- Thread starter Rabia
- Start date
- Status
All my homies hate Iron Thorns, goodbye and good riddance.
That being said, I have been very outspoken in the past few weeks with my thoughts on Cresselia, and they have not changed one bit. Cresselia is a C rank pokemon with good natural counterplay that you'd want on your team regardless of Cress's existence. Beyond the teambuilder, setup Cresselia has never felt threatening in game as it provides virtually nothing to a team before setting up, and even then it takes 2-3 turns to actually threaten a sweep. The difference between Cresselia's pressure and that of the many bulky setup sweepers we've banned or almost banned over the gen is clear as day; GBro in its first tenure, Slowbro, Dudunsparce, Snorlax, Pauros, Pompom in any of the 20082345 times we banned it, Frosmoth, Suicune and the list goes on and on. All those other pokemon have two very important things that Cresselia doesn't have: Immediate pressure, as well as versatility. Cresselia is a one trick pony, unless you count the scarf set which is arguably worse than Scarf Uxie.
Moving on to the second bulky sweeper on the slate, I think banning Cresselia and not Pompom is a massive mistake. Pompom actually feels useful in games beyond being a late game wincon, and it can also cheese through would be answers via flinch, confusion, tera lottery. Pompom is a much more toxic presence in the tier. I do not think I would vote ban myself if I had the chance, but that opinion changes daily.
Regarding Mr. Overqwilliam, I do not know what the correct course of action is. It is undoubtedly strong, and it has proven a massive buff to rain, which is becoming MUCH more common in tournament play. Is Overqwil the problem, or is it rain? Do we ban Overqwil or maybe seek action against rain? I do not know which I would choose yet, and I don't want council to rush into a decision either.
As others have mentioned and explained, banning Flygon would be a very bad decision, not only because it is not banworthy, but because the tier as a whole would be worse without it.
I also wanted to bring up Mienshao. For a few months, the only thing holding Mienshao back was the presence of Talonflame, and even in those months I had already moved away from Choice Scarf towards unchoiced sets, and they always produced great results. Now that unchoiced sets are picking up in usage, especially in tours, and with the departure of Talonflame, people are reaching the same conclusion I did; Mienshao is too much for the tier. It partners very well with virtually every single pokemon in the tier, and can customize its own item, tera type, and moveslots to do whatever job you need it to. Its massive 125 base Atk stat, combined with a very solid base 105 speed and regenerator allow it to terrorize balance teams over and over without having to worry about traditional chip damage from pivot moves, hazards, status, helmet etc. The only real semi consistent answer is Slowbro-Galar, and even the brotherman can be worn down with spikes + rocks + consistent chip from Knock/Uturn. Please get Shao out of here.
That being said, I have been very outspoken in the past few weeks with my thoughts on Cresselia, and they have not changed one bit. Cresselia is a C rank pokemon with good natural counterplay that you'd want on your team regardless of Cress's existence. Beyond the teambuilder, setup Cresselia has never felt threatening in game as it provides virtually nothing to a team before setting up, and even then it takes 2-3 turns to actually threaten a sweep. The difference between Cresselia's pressure and that of the many bulky setup sweepers we've banned or almost banned over the gen is clear as day; GBro in its first tenure, Slowbro, Dudunsparce, Snorlax, Pauros, Pompom in any of the 20082345 times we banned it, Frosmoth, Suicune and the list goes on and on. All those other pokemon have two very important things that Cresselia doesn't have: Immediate pressure, as well as versatility. Cresselia is a one trick pony, unless you count the scarf set which is arguably worse than Scarf Uxie.
Moving on to the second bulky sweeper on the slate, I think banning Cresselia and not Pompom is a massive mistake. Pompom actually feels useful in games beyond being a late game wincon, and it can also cheese through would be answers via flinch, confusion, tera lottery. Pompom is a much more toxic presence in the tier. I do not think I would vote ban myself if I had the chance, but that opinion changes daily.
Regarding Mr. Overqwilliam, I do not know what the correct course of action is. It is undoubtedly strong, and it has proven a massive buff to rain, which is becoming MUCH more common in tournament play. Is Overqwil the problem, or is it rain? Do we ban Overqwil or maybe seek action against rain? I do not know which I would choose yet, and I don't want council to rush into a decision either.
As others have mentioned and explained, banning Flygon would be a very bad decision, not only because it is not banworthy, but because the tier as a whole would be worse without it.
I also wanted to bring up Mienshao. For a few months, the only thing holding Mienshao back was the presence of Talonflame, and even in those months I had already moved away from Choice Scarf towards unchoiced sets, and they always produced great results. Now that unchoiced sets are picking up in usage, especially in tours, and with the departure of Talonflame, people are reaching the same conclusion I did; Mienshao is too much for the tier. It partners very well with virtually every single pokemon in the tier, and can customize its own item, tera type, and moveslots to do whatever job you need it to. Its massive 125 base Atk stat, combined with a very solid base 105 speed and regenerator allow it to terrorize balance teams over and over without having to worry about traditional chip damage from pivot moves, hazards, status, helmet etc. The only real semi consistent answer is Slowbro-Galar, and even the brotherman can be worn down with spikes + rocks + consistent chip from Knock/Uturn. Please get Shao out of here.
sadly I have already portrayed you as the ugly one, so I win:
Seriously though this decision doesn't make much sense to me. When etern asked me for my votes I stressed very heavily that it's too early after a pretty influential tier shift to make a drastic ban like this, which is why I voted DNB on everything. This slate also distinctly lacked Mienshao which hardly has any safe midgrounds or switchins at all now that Talonflame is gone. Not gonna complain too much though, Cresselia and Iron Thorns were both really dumb and the tier is probably better with them gone.
Having voted it feels worthwhile to yap here a little bit about the slate and the potential other candidates for tiering action...
Oricorio-Pom-Pom
This repeat offender is a really interesting mon to me. Whenever I'm building a team it feels utterly oppressive, with Tera Steel / Taunt / Grassy Seed versions having entirely different counters to the Tera Ground / Hurricane versions. On one hand a bulky mon or ground type with Toxic / Roar (think Glowbro, Swampert) can handle the more offensive versions, while the Taunt version can be shut down by Steel types and more aggressive plays. However the problem arises when we realise the counterplay for the two sets is almost entirely separate, and there's very little overlap in checks. This causes huge headaches when teambuilding as you can't reliably counter both sets without limiting yourself vs the rest of a very threatening metagame. This causes a trend towards structures which give Pom Pom 0 opportunities to set up, which can still be forced through moves like Encore, Memento, Trick etc. The shared checks (Dragon Tail on like, AV Flygon or Goodra) are average at best and end up making your team weaker vs everything else. This problem also got a lot worse with Umbreon and Quagsire leaving, two great checks to the more offensive versions.
Overall it just creates a huge matchup fish mon, which will never be popular on ladder because it's not consistent enough. However, that sort of matchup fish doesn't create a fun tournament (especially bo1) environment, which is why I think in the middle of SCL we see it crop up again. I voted ban for this reason and I'm honestly surprised it stayed considering Cress went...
Cresselia
For me, this bears a lot of similarity to Pom Pom, as it forces teams to specifically build for it or otherwise they will lose, and shares similar checks with Taunt, Trick, Encore, Hazing / Phazing all being important. However, for me the big difference is that Cresselia checks are a) much more reliable as Cress can't run a slight variation on its set to completely invalidate them and b) are normally good vs the rest of the meta. It also needs a lot more turns than Pom Pom to become as threatening. SD Incin, Taunt Overqwil, Haze Milo / Vap, Encore in general, all will put a stop to Cress. And you probably want to run these sort of mons anyway. Tera can force some of these matchups to lose, so I can see where some of the ban sentiment comes from, but for me Pom Pom is a much worse offender and should have gone first.
Iron Thorns
This thing absolutely deserved to go. With one free turn it can turn a game on its head, and with good bulk and useful typing it doesn't struggle to get those. Tera compounds this massively, with Flying, Ghost, Bug, and Grass all being viable options. Guess wrong and it's game over. It's also got insane coverage with Stone Edge, Supercell Slam, Ice Punch, EQ, then Dice Pin Missile / Rock Blast sets also being a thing. Overall it created similar matchup fishes to Pom Pom, with almost 0 reliable counterplay existing.
Overqwil
Personally I don't see this as a huge problem, if rain sets are the primary concern. It definitely improves Rain teams by a few %, but not gigantically. While rain was already on the edge, I don't think this pushes it over. If rain was deemed problematic, I think targeting Damp Rock is a better option as I don't think Qwil alone would be enough bans to balance it, Basc probably needs to go as well. Even so, Rain feels ok right now, especially as it's only just fully developing. There's a lot of Water immunities which are extremely viable anyway, which most teams need due to the existence of Scald. So it doesn't feel like you go out of your way to build teams which are OK into rain. Hazards are also extremely potent vs rain, with many good Spikers in the tier.
Mienshao
With Talon leaving this thing got a whole lot better, it can pretty safely forgo Pads, to run LO instead. Vileplume and Sylveon will certainly be on the rise, as most other fight resists can't safely take LO Knock Off. I think this is definitely one to keep an eye on, with the speed tier also being insane. Having more non-scarf mons on teams which are faster than Mienshao is going to become important as well. But yeah, Talon leaving also means Spikes got a lot better, and Mienshao is both immune to Spikes and abuses them so well. It feels scary in the builder and in game, I'm interested to see how much play it gets in the next few weeks of SCL and whether it feels too much.
Flygon
While it's hugely centralising and has such variety in its sets that it can muscle past many checks, for me it lacks a little bit of potency that would mean it requires actions. Good mid grounds exist, like most bulky waters, and it can also be reliably revenge killed both with Scarf mons like Mienshao and priority in general. I also think a fast Ground type is hugely beneficial to the tier, and part of the reason it's got such high usage is not because it's broken, but rather so splashable and useful both offensively and defensively.
Happy to debate any of the above if you disagree, let's keep discussion happening
Oricorio-Pom-Pom
This repeat offender is a really interesting mon to me. Whenever I'm building a team it feels utterly oppressive, with Tera Steel / Taunt / Grassy Seed versions having entirely different counters to the Tera Ground / Hurricane versions. On one hand a bulky mon or ground type with Toxic / Roar (think Glowbro, Swampert) can handle the more offensive versions, while the Taunt version can be shut down by Steel types and more aggressive plays. However the problem arises when we realise the counterplay for the two sets is almost entirely separate, and there's very little overlap in checks. This causes huge headaches when teambuilding as you can't reliably counter both sets without limiting yourself vs the rest of a very threatening metagame. This causes a trend towards structures which give Pom Pom 0 opportunities to set up, which can still be forced through moves like Encore, Memento, Trick etc. The shared checks (Dragon Tail on like, AV Flygon or Goodra) are average at best and end up making your team weaker vs everything else. This problem also got a lot worse with Umbreon and Quagsire leaving, two great checks to the more offensive versions.
Overall it just creates a huge matchup fish mon, which will never be popular on ladder because it's not consistent enough. However, that sort of matchup fish doesn't create a fun tournament (especially bo1) environment, which is why I think in the middle of SCL we see it crop up again. I voted ban for this reason and I'm honestly surprised it stayed considering Cress went...
Cresselia
For me, this bears a lot of similarity to Pom Pom, as it forces teams to specifically build for it or otherwise they will lose, and shares similar checks with Taunt, Trick, Encore, Hazing / Phazing all being important. However, for me the big difference is that Cresselia checks are a) much more reliable as Cress can't run a slight variation on its set to completely invalidate them and b) are normally good vs the rest of the meta. It also needs a lot more turns than Pom Pom to become as threatening. SD Incin, Taunt Overqwil, Haze Milo / Vap, Encore in general, all will put a stop to Cress. And you probably want to run these sort of mons anyway. Tera can force some of these matchups to lose, so I can see where some of the ban sentiment comes from, but for me Pom Pom is a much worse offender and should have gone first.
Iron Thorns
This thing absolutely deserved to go. With one free turn it can turn a game on its head, and with good bulk and useful typing it doesn't struggle to get those. Tera compounds this massively, with Flying, Ghost, Bug, and Grass all being viable options. Guess wrong and it's game over. It's also got insane coverage with Stone Edge, Supercell Slam, Ice Punch, EQ, then Dice Pin Missile / Rock Blast sets also being a thing. Overall it created similar matchup fishes to Pom Pom, with almost 0 reliable counterplay existing.
Overqwil
Personally I don't see this as a huge problem, if rain sets are the primary concern. It definitely improves Rain teams by a few %, but not gigantically. While rain was already on the edge, I don't think this pushes it over. If rain was deemed problematic, I think targeting Damp Rock is a better option as I don't think Qwil alone would be enough bans to balance it, Basc probably needs to go as well. Even so, Rain feels ok right now, especially as it's only just fully developing. There's a lot of Water immunities which are extremely viable anyway, which most teams need due to the existence of Scald. So it doesn't feel like you go out of your way to build teams which are OK into rain. Hazards are also extremely potent vs rain, with many good Spikers in the tier.
Mienshao
With Talon leaving this thing got a whole lot better, it can pretty safely forgo Pads, to run LO instead. Vileplume and Sylveon will certainly be on the rise, as most other fight resists can't safely take LO Knock Off. I think this is definitely one to keep an eye on, with the speed tier also being insane. Having more non-scarf mons on teams which are faster than Mienshao is going to become important as well. But yeah, Talon leaving also means Spikes got a lot better, and Mienshao is both immune to Spikes and abuses them so well. It feels scary in the builder and in game, I'm interested to see how much play it gets in the next few weeks of SCL and whether it feels too much.
Flygon
While it's hugely centralising and has such variety in its sets that it can muscle past many checks, for me it lacks a little bit of potency that would mean it requires actions. Good mid grounds exist, like most bulky waters, and it can also be reliably revenge killed both with Scarf mons like Mienshao and priority in general. I also think a fast Ground type is hugely beneficial to the tier, and part of the reason it's got such high usage is not because it's broken, but rather so splashable and useful both offensively and defensively.
Happy to debate any of the above if you disagree, let's keep discussion happening
I'm done being lazy and will make a post about broken Rain.
Overqwil, while a strong sweeper, is not the only broken aspect of Rain. Basculegion is the big boy breaker that has been a threat for a long time, even without Overqwil in the tier. Round 4 of Seasonal has been dominated by Rain offense. Some teams use Overqwil, some use Kilowattrel, some opt for Toxicroak, Ludicolo, and Kingdra. However, the one thing that remains constant (other than Klefki) is Basculegion. Rain is not broken because of Overqwil, it is broken because of both Basculegion and Overqwil. On top of this, building teams to not lose to Rain is not fun. You rely on Vaporeon, Avalugg, and Tera Gligar to beat Rain, but against non-Rain you just have a passive team. If there ever is an Overqwil suspect *because of Rain*, I would suggest making it a dual suspect and adding Basculegion.
The SS me is dying as I'm typing this. I don't believe Cresselia should have been banned. Dark-types are at an all time high, every team has one or two of them. Steel-types like Bronzong are also really good right now. These Pokemon have no issue dealing with Cresselia. This Pokemon had a good impact on tier, providing us with a check to Flygon and Mienshao. I really hope we see a retest for this down the road because it felt balanced in game and less so in the builder, but that's ok. We allow Flygon to be a centralizing threat, why don't we let Cresselia exist solely as a good Pokemon?
e: Also don't ban Pom-Pom, it's a shit bird that is only broken if you overthink.
Overqwil, while a strong sweeper, is not the only broken aspect of Rain. Basculegion is the big boy breaker that has been a threat for a long time, even without Overqwil in the tier. Round 4 of Seasonal has been dominated by Rain offense. Some teams use Overqwil, some use Kilowattrel, some opt for Toxicroak, Ludicolo, and Kingdra. However, the one thing that remains constant (other than Klefki) is Basculegion. Rain is not broken because of Overqwil, it is broken because of both Basculegion and Overqwil. On top of this, building teams to not lose to Rain is not fun. You rely on Vaporeon, Avalugg, and Tera Gligar to beat Rain, but against non-Rain you just have a passive team. If there ever is an Overqwil suspect *because of Rain*, I would suggest making it a dual suspect and adding Basculegion.
The SS me is dying as I'm typing this. I don't believe Cresselia should have been banned. Dark-types are at an all time high, every team has one or two of them. Steel-types like Bronzong are also really good right now. These Pokemon have no issue dealing with Cresselia. This Pokemon had a good impact on tier, providing us with a check to Flygon and Mienshao. I really hope we see a retest for this down the road because it felt balanced in game and less so in the builder, but that's ok. We allow Flygon to be a centralizing threat, why don't we let Cresselia exist solely as a good Pokemon?
e: Also don't ban Pom-Pom, it's a shit bird that is only broken if you overthink.
I totally agree with the Cress take. Flygon was already hard enough to check without her ban. Other than bronzong, we have... uhh... Plume? Swampert? Most supposed walls have less than great means of recovery and get chipped easily. We already had foul play Umbre, Quag, and T-Flame snapped out of existence. I hate facing it now and I could never say that before. It could be sub, or dd sub, or dd sub with LD to bypass sashes, or scarf, or band, or hazards, or have any coverage move you can imagine. And those are just its main sets. I love Flygon but its time to let go of our green goggle friend.I'm done being lazy and will make a post about broken Rain.
Overqwil, while a strong sweeper, is not the only broken aspect of Rain. Basculegion is the big boy breaker that has been a threat for a long time, even without Overqwil in the tier. Round 4 of Seasonal has been dominated by Rain offense. Some teams use Overqwil, some use Kilowattrel, some opt for Toxicroak, Ludicolo, and Kingdra. However, the one thing that remains constant (other than Klefki) is Basculegion. Rain is not broken because of Overqwil, it is broken because of both Basculegion and Overqwil. On top of this, building teams to not lose to Rain is not fun. You rely on Vaporeon, Avalugg, and Tera Gligar to beat Rain, but against non-Rain you just have a passive team. If there ever is an Overqwil suspect *because of Rain*, I would suggest making it a dual suspect and adding Basculegion.
The SS me is dying as I'm typing this. I don't believe Cresselia should have been banned. Dark-types are at an all time high, every team has one or two of them. Steel-types like Bronzong are also really good right now. These Pokemon have no issue dealing with Cresselia. This Pokemon had a good impact on tier, providing us with a check to Flygon and Mienshao. I really hope we see a retest for this down the road because it felt balanced in game and less so in the builder, but that's ok. We allow Flygon to be a centralizing threat, why don't we let Cresselia exist solely as a good Pokemon?
e: Also don't ban Pom-Pom, it's a shit bird that is only broken if you overthink.
I quite like these bans. Two mons that could easily turn a game upside down (thorns > cress).
I want to focus on the gon banwagon* however.
There’s a couple of mons/sets that remain unexplored and that would ease the matchup vs gon while still being good in this current metagame.
1.
This is the mon right here! Checks Croak/Shao, Gon, even Scrafty if needed while providing some red magic. Very very good Balance mon atm.
2.
Good ol’ Horse. Pair this up with the classic wish support from eeveelutions and you are set. Checks a good amount of mons in the tier.
3.
Roar Sylveon deserves a mention. Possibly forcing the tera on gon, denying vapo’s healing and shuffling mons in a hazard stack build is fun (beware of throat chop gon).
My thoughts on Flygon:
The meta has its defining mon in Gon. Versatile, good speed tier, typing, currently the mon seems to have it all but banning it rn would be too much.
The mon has offensive checks, defensive checks/counters and isn’t all that strong to begin with. You would need cb/lo to really cause damage early on and we all know that both those sets are not the best.
It’s a crazy enabler (probably the only argument I see fit for the ban) for other breakers like porygon-z but give it a month and see how the meta develops.
I want to focus on the gon banwagon* however.
There’s a couple of mons/sets that remain unexplored and that would ease the matchup vs gon while still being good in this current metagame.
1.
This is the mon right here! Checks Croak/Shao, Gon, even Scrafty if needed while providing some red magic. Very very good Balance mon atm. 2.
Good ol’ Horse. Pair this up with the classic wish support from eeveelutions and you are set. Checks a good amount of mons in the tier.3.
Roar Sylveon deserves a mention. Possibly forcing the tera on gon, denying vapo’s healing and shuffling mons in a hazard stack build is fun (beware of throat chop gon). My thoughts on Flygon:
The meta has its defining mon in Gon. Versatile, good speed tier, typing, currently the mon seems to have it all but banning it rn would be too much.
The mon has offensive checks, defensive checks/counters and isn’t all that strong to begin with. You would need cb/lo to really cause damage early on and we all know that both those sets are not the best.
It’s a crazy enabler (probably the only argument I see fit for the ban) for other breakers like porygon-z but give it a month and see how the meta develops.
@ Mystic WaterAbility: Torrent
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Aqua Jet
- Taunt
I never liked specs on Inteleon just because whatever switches in really doesn't worry about what it might click. Inteleon is at its best when it can use its real moves and not make u-turn predicts. So I came up with a set that can make the best use of all of its tools. Running hydro is worth the risk in my opinion since snipe shot is just so weak (scald works too I guess). Its just a 130 base power nuke that can be stacked with torrent or tera occasionally. Ice beam is a must, and taunt can deny bulky setup sweepers like
or . So why run jet? Priority is super valuable on offensive teams and is even better when it takes opponents off guard. A valuable sweeper or scarfer at low HP will almost always stay in once they see Inteleon come out and get picked off. Against a 
you can heavily weaken its eruptions for the lizard or teammates. While this set still loses to its counters like 
or 
, they can still be prevented from clicking recovery moves late game which is very valuable for your other breakers.(Edit: I didn't even mention that the likes of
, 
, and 
have defense-lowering moves making it easier to get jet KO's)I can happily say I've made a competent NU team for the first time in months. Switching to VGC for a bit definitely hampered my teambuilding and knowledge of singles a ton (P.S I think both formats are in a really good state right now which is cool).
Last edited:
Anyone else feels like Mienshao is a strong contender for best Pokemon in the tier ?
It's practically unwallable and Talonflame leaving makes it impossible to punish its clicks unless you're using Vileplume.
The speed tier is amazing and you can even pick a free move after Close/Knock/Turn.
Fast Knock/Turn on a Regen mon is fundamentally busted to anyone who's been paying attention to competitive Pokemon since Gen 6 too.
Watashi/BJ's recent Scl game was a good example of Mienshao being suffocating for both sides and forcing defensive Teras to deal with it too. Because unless you Tera something, there is actually no natural reliable defensive counterplay to it in the tier, except Vileplume.
It's practically unwallable and Talonflame leaving makes it impossible to punish its clicks unless you're using Vileplume.
The speed tier is amazing and you can even pick a free move after Close/Knock/Turn.
Fast Knock/Turn on a Regen mon is fundamentally busted to anyone who's been paying attention to competitive Pokemon since Gen 6 too.
Watashi/BJ's recent Scl game was a good example of Mienshao being suffocating for both sides and forcing defensive Teras to deal with it too. Because unless you Tera something, there is actually no natural reliable defensive counterplay to it in the tier, except Vileplume.
Basculegion @ Leftovers
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 64 HP / 252 Atk / 192 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Phantom Force
- Liquidation
- Substitute
- Pain Split / Aqua Jet / Spite
Been having a lot of fun with this set lately. Main idea is to lure in fat waters and 1v1/stall them. Behind a sub + phantom force also gets you heal sufficiently between turns which is a cool interaction. Letting in pz/cinccino for free on a phantom force isnt ideal ofc but jet can help with that. Pain split also helps vs id zong trying to psynoise you down. Can also sub on an incoming croak/bramble and phantom force it after. Pair this set with fire types, i used lazzle which is kinda underrated honestly but hard to forego the other great poison types we have ofc.
Okay I think enough has changed that this might finally be a possibility.
Talonflame, Quagsire, Umbreon, and Cresselia were all pretty great checks to Flygon that are no longer with us. Flygon sets are rapidly developing to turn would-be checks like Bronzong into setup fodder with sets like Tera Ghost + Throat Chop or Tera Fire Punch. I was pretty adamantly anti-ban on Flygon and even anti-suspect, I didn't even think there was room for a discussion regarding it but now that this meta has settled for almost a month and we've lost quite a few reliable checks to Flygon, I think there is a discussion to be had regarding Flygon.
As for Mienshao, its oppression in the builder is quite difficult to manage. Although its poor bulk means you can attempt to make trades with it, a well-positioned Mienshao has next to zero defensive counterplay, something even juggernauts like Toxtricity and Chandelure can't say. Talonflame and Cresselia leaving are amazing for Mienshao, and even Umbreon and Quagsire would often Tera Poison to aid in that MU on the teams those Pokemon were commonly found on. I wouldn't advise on any action just yet but I would keep a VERY close eye on this Pokemon.
Overqwil interestingly enough hasn't made nearly as much of an impact as I thought, both defensively and as a rain sweeper. I still think rain has potential to be broken, and SCL players are just shy of being cteamed the first few weeks it's legal, but we'll see. Defensive Overqwil honestly just has less special bulk than Qwilfish-Hisui, which is where that typing really wants to put it's money. Intimidate is cool but that typing is still losing to Mienshao and Flygon.
I would personally expect a Mienshao or Flygon suspect within a month.
Losing a lot of these soft + splashable Flygon checks has certainly been painful. And we continue to see in SCL 40-50% usage of Flygon every week, with games very often decided by who can position their DD Flygon into the right spot first. This SCL game from today is a good example of the effect Stories was talking about where a bulky Sub DD Fire Punch Flygon invalidates both Sylveon and Bronzong as checks. This does seem like a characteristic that would lead to a suspect test. DD seems to be taking over as the dominant set, with Scarf and Band dropping off a little bit. With the variation in coverage and Tera types DD Flygon can run, and now emerging bulky sets as well, it may well prove to be the tipping point for Flygon. A suspect doesn't seem out of place, and would at least serve to drive analysis on how broken Flygon actually is.
Mienshao has absolutely got better as well. LO for me is the most dangerous set, and Scarf feels like a bit of wasted potential on a mon with CC / Knock / U-Turn and Regenerator. However, in practice I've found Mienshaos frail defenses to make it manageable, and a well timed Tera drops Mienshao. This game from last week is a good example where Mienshao forces Tera on Incineroar on both teams. CC on this turn causes Mienshao to die, while U-Turn to scout for tera is a good play. Forcing progress like this is something most breakers do, so I'm unsure if this alone breaks Mienshao. More fighting resists which don't mind knock (Vileplume, Sylveon, Glowbro) will rise in usage, and the speed tier above Mienshao is now super important (Munki, Kilo, Cinccino, Raikou, Salazzle, Inteleon). I don't think Mienshao is quite at a suspect point yet, but the presence in the builder as Stories mentioned is certainly felt. It's definitely no where near as bad as Cress was / Pom Pom is, but definitely worth keeping an eye on.
I thought about making a weather report, but all the other weathers are so bad I instead chose to present you the...
The Lineup of Death:
Rain is such a powerful archtype that it reminds me of a certain green wave that washed over the NBA this season. Take a look.
Jrue Holiday- Tentacruel: Reliable defensive presence, does all the dirty work, a grizzled veteran, underrated king
@ Air Balloon/Rocky Helmet
Ability: Rain Dish
Tera Type: Dark/Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Flip Turn
- Sludge Bomb
- Rapid Spin
- Haze/Toxic/Knock Off
Tenta is great as a fighting type check for an archtype that otherwise struggles with them. It is able to pivot into threats like, 
, and , and afterwards flip to keep momentum. Haze is great for an ID or 
that gives rain trouble. Spin is great because none of these mons run boots. I stole the air balloon idea which allows Tenta to become a temporary check for a team with no real ground resists. Helmet gives you good progress and makes you not a sitting duck against 
. Sludge does solid damage to 
with a chance to poison too.
Joe Mazzula- Klefki: The magician that makes it all happen, sets the court the way he wants it
Jaylen Brown- Basculegion: Just an unstoppable force, has become the face of the group
Jayson Tatum- Overqwil: One the great talents in their realm, occasionally inconsistent, acts tough all the time, creates openings for teamates
As mentioned before on this thread these are the key cogs of rain. I used slightly different sets from the norm but the basis is there. Set up your weather and go to town. I prefer scarf + adaptability on legion over swift swim + band to still have speed outside of rain. Amulet on overqwil lets it have a better chance at sweeping against teams with
or opposing (see calcs) as well as negate webs. I also just want to mention how well basc and qwil compliment each other's typing.
Derrick White- Ludicolo: Often underestimated because of his appearance, can pour (heh) in production easily
This mon is very important to take out and switch into. Its defensive typing is good enough to withstand some hits. It does what it needs to do, which is providing a great special attacking presence.
Kristaps Porzingis- Beartic: Another veteran who is also a bit unfamiliar to the group, a big boy from the cold parts of the world, operates with power and finesse, will snowball (heh) if left unchecked
@ Loaded Dice/Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear/Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Aqua Jet/Liquidation
- Substitute
Why beartic over the many other swift swim users? The bear fills a lot of necessary roles that makes it better options in my opinion to the traditional
or 
. is a huge problem for rain. Substitute allows you to bypass its powerful LO/SD sucker punches and take the ko after. While could threaten big damage with draco with a predict you often want to click your good moves and not give oppurtunity for opponents to set up. In the case of sd bullet punch or np vacuum wave, tera water can remedy your bad typing. First off, the loaded dice buff now gives it the opportunity to get key ko's without the chance to miss, as well as bypass sashes+subs. A secondary priority option on the team is very helpful. EQ gets big damage on 
and your annoying steels. The most notable weakness for this set is a tera steel , but a spear into jet can still do sizeable damage if they try and set up. Alternatives for - beating 6th slot mons could be a psychic 
or an EQ 
but those don't provide as much offensive versatility for the team, and they can't really afford running sub like the bear.
Team I used: https://pokepast.es/8de2ed517de5a48a
Rain still has its weaknesses but I had a lot of fun playing it. I really wanted to highlight some underrated mons and give my thoughts on rain in a fun way. I wonder if its too broken
. Anyways, thanks for reading and have a nice day.
The Lineup of Death:
Rain is such a powerful archtype that it reminds me of a certain green wave that washed over the NBA this season. Take a look.
Jrue Holiday- Tentacruel: Reliable defensive presence, does all the dirty work, a grizzled veteran, underrated king
@ Air Balloon/Rocky HelmetAbility: Rain Dish
Tera Type: Dark/Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Flip Turn
- Sludge Bomb
- Rapid Spin
- Haze/Toxic/Knock Off
Tenta is great as a fighting type check for an archtype that otherwise struggles with them. It is able to pivot into threats like
, , and , and afterwards flip to keep momentum. Haze is great for an ID or that gives rain trouble. Spin is great because none of these mons run boots. I stole the air balloon idea which allows Tenta to become a temporary check for a team with no real ground resists. Helmet gives you good progress and makes you not a sitting duck against . Sludge does solid damage to with a chance to poison too.Joe Mazzula- Klefki: The magician that makes it all happen, sets the court the way he wants it
Jaylen Brown- Basculegion: Just an unstoppable force, has become the face of the group
Jayson Tatum- Overqwil: One the great talents in their realm, occasionally inconsistent, acts tough all the time, creates openings for teamates
As mentioned before on this thread these are the key cogs of rain. I used slightly different sets from the norm but the basis is there. Set up your weather and go to town. I prefer scarf + adaptability on legion over swift swim + band to still have speed outside of rain. Amulet on overqwil lets it have a better chance at sweeping against teams with
or opposing (see calcs) as well as negate webs. I also just want to mention how well basc and qwil compliment each other's typing.Derrick White- Ludicolo: Often underestimated because of his appearance, can pour (heh) in production easily
This mon is very important to take out and switch into
. Its defensive typing is good enough to withstand some hits. It does what it needs to do, which is providing a great special attacking presence.Kristaps Porzingis- Beartic: Another veteran who is also a bit unfamiliar to the group, a big boy from the cold parts of the world, operates with power and finesse, will snowball (heh) if left unchecked
@ Loaded Dice/Heavy Duty BootsAbility: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Spear/Icicle Crash
- Earthquake
- Aqua Jet/Liquidation
- Substitute
Why beartic over the many other swift swim users? The bear fills a lot of necessary roles that makes it better options in my opinion to the traditional
or . is a huge problem for rain. Substitute allows you to bypass its powerful LO/SD sucker punches and take the ko after. While could threaten big damage with draco with a predict you often want to click your good moves and not give oppurtunity for opponents to set up. In the case of sd bullet punch or np vacuum wave, tera water can remedy your bad typing. First off, the loaded dice buff now gives it the opportunity to get key ko's without the chance to miss, as well as bypass sashes+subs. A secondary priority option on the team is very helpful. EQ gets big damage on and your annoying steels. The most notable weakness for this set is a tera steel , but a spear into jet can still do sizeable damage if they try and set up. Alternatives for - beating 6th slot mons could be a psychic or an EQ but those don't provide as much offensive versatility for the team, and they can't really afford running sub like the bear.252 Atk Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Registeel in Rain: 186-220 (51 - 60.4%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 271-321 (100 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 393-463 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tera Stellar Overqwil Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Overqwil in Rain: 318-374 (102.2 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tera Stellar Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 472-556 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Munkidori in Rain: 328-386 (103.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinccino: 276-328 (94.8 - 112.7%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 340-400 (110.7 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Toxicroak: 256-304 (83.3 - 99%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Toxicroak: 320-380 (104.2 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 271-321 (100 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Incineroar: 393-463 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tera Stellar Overqwil Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Overqwil in Rain: 318-374 (102.2 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Tera Stellar Overqwil Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 472-556 (101.7 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Munkidori in Rain: 328-386 (103.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cinccino: 276-328 (94.8 - 112.7%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Toxicroak: 340-400 (110.7 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Toxicroak: 256-304 (83.3 - 99%) -- approx. 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Beartic Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Dark Toxicroak: 320-380 (104.2 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Beartic Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 262-310 (100.3 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Team I used: https://pokepast.es/8de2ed517de5a48a
Rain still has its weaknesses but I had a lot of fun playing it. I really wanted to highlight some underrated mons and give my thoughts on rain in a fun way. I wonder if its too broken
. Anyways, thanks for reading and have a nice day.
Last edited:
This is objectively false and I will be correcting it to the only factual comparison
Jayson Tatum - Tornadus: Shows up at the start of the game, has a few flashy moments in the first half then is nowhere to be found in the clutch stages of the game
I've been asked before by stories to explain why I'm pro ban on Flygon, and I totally ignored her because I wasn't down, but now that I have time and feeling much more patriotic to the cause, I thought I'd explain.
In general, what we saw in the zS BJ match and the quoted Django post sums up how I feel. The issue with Flygon has always been set variations on its DD set. In this tier, we have very few hard checks to Flygon once it gets going and most people rely on multiple soft checks to defend against it. Examples of soft checks include and are not limited to: Haze/Ice Beam/Alluring Voice fat Waters, Sylveon, Bronzong, Toxic Gligar, Orthworm, ones own Flygon with Tera, Tera on random defensive pieces, Scarf Shao, Scarf Munki, etc etc etc.
Although it seems as if this would allow for enough flexibility in the builder, it becomes pretty clear pretty quickly that Flygon can mix up its set in a ton of different ways in order to bypass basically all of these. The only two mandatory moves are truly Dragon Dance and Earthquake and then its up to ones imagination. For example, let's say you want to go with a classic offensive DD Flygon with Scale Shot + Dice. In your last slot, you can go for Throat Chop, Fire Punch, Fire Blast, Substitute, Draco Meteor, U-Turn and probably a few other things (this is what I've personally used) in order to pick and choose your counters a bit. Teras will usually be Steel which flips half of its matchups anyways, but others like Fairy, or Ghost, Ground, and Dragon are all viable as well (I highly recommended messing around with Tera Ghost + Throat Chop to stunt on IDBP Zongs). And these are just offensive Scale Shot sets. Others like bulky Breaking Swipe (the zs special) or innovations like the bulky Sub set we saw in SCL today are both interesting and viable routes to take as well. This is before we even get into non Scale Shot sets as a whole, bulky and not bulky, with a mix of coverage, Sub, Teras, whatever. The things this mon can do are remarkable in the right hands and with smart building.
I think the reason people are hesitant to ban Flygon is because it's such a good mon for the tier in every other aspect. It's a fantastic Scarfer, CB holder, and Rocker while being a Levitating Volt immune with a strong speed tier in a Spikes meta. In reality though, this meta isn't the same as a week or two ago. We lost three good checks in Talonflame, Umbreon, and Quagsire while (deservedly) banning Cresselia, another check. At this point in time, I think we have to stop trying to hold onto the broken pieces of a past meta that was pretty good because it doesn't exist. Mons like Flygon on top of things like Mienshao, Pom-Pom, and potentially Rain, just aren't balanced as they used to be. I don't think there are unbans currently or adjustments that would make the tier better with the rises that we had and a banning of those 3 or 4 mons feels like the way to go. I know I'm not the only one who feels this way about the meta, so I'd like to invite others to speak on it as well, including our dear TL etern since we talked about it earlier after I brought it up in the NU Discord.
- I heavily dislike this guy in the tier. In the past, Talonflame's presence in the tier provided a way to punish Mienshao, whether Scarf or Life Orb, and we had Cress to sponge hits a bit sort of not really. Now, we've lost all of that and there feels as if there's essentially no way outside of Vileplume to punish Mienshao (which can lose to Pads + Axel or just by being overwhelmed easily in this meta). Basically, no way to punish Shao + a lack of good Fight resists = an unhealthy presence to me. We have Fighting-types like Migo that can fill the role while being easier to punish as well with things like Helmet, so to me this feels like a healthy ban for the tier. Don't really think I need to elaborate on this currently because it feels way more straightforward than Flygon.
- Stupid cringe bird haxes and 1v1s everyone, beats checks with Taunt or Offensive and the combo of Tera, and is overall stupid and adds nothing positive to the tier. - I'm currently of the position that Rain is ok, but it's something I'd want to keep an eye on. I think we've seen a pretty noticeable increase in bulky Water balances and Teraing out of a matchup to get rid of a rain mon is a pretty viable use of Tera that can neuter Rain in a lot of games. I do think that Overqwil + Basc can be pretty insane with your choice of Rain mons (Kilo, Kingdra, Ludi) and setters (Klefki, Torn, Illumise, Uxie), but it's not an individual mon issue. Either ban Damp Rock in the future or don't touch Rain. I'm currently on team do not touch. It's nice to have a cheese playstyle to keep people honest sometimes. epic post just wanted to give it credit LOLThe Lineup of Death:
- Regarding Cress and its ban since I've seen some confusion over it and sentiment to unban it to help deal with Flygon and Shao: nope! There's a reason that we decided as council to ban Cress, even with some people in the community calling it C tier, namely, the builder presence on Cresselia was stupid. Cress either would 6-0 a team on preview or your opp packed 2 Cress checks + Taunt + Phasing and it was sack fodder with very little games in between. Tera + Cress shenanigans also allowed it to flip the matchup on a bunch of checks + forced certain movesets or spreads on mons like SD being mandatory on SpDef Incin. Overall, it's a weird ban if someone spent their whole time just laddering against webs HO, but it put a heavy strain on the builder in really awkward ways. Goodbye good riddance in my opinion. We shouldn't be looking to unban this because it won't solve our problems. We should get rid of the things that you want to unfree Cress for.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9nu-801795
anyone watch this and tell me pom pom is a fair and balanced mon
anyone watch this and tell me pom pom is a fair and balanced mon
he could've dodged air slash noob
he could've been covert cloak too tbh
Can we ban Mienshao with Oricorio-Pompom please. Mienshao has done more bad than Iron Thorns ever could dream of. Figthing types are already crazy hard to answer for, but having one that's faster than 80% of the tier, has Regen, U-turn, and solid coverage in Knock Off and Ice Spinner / Triple Axel, is just too much. I've tried playing devil's advocate on NU cord on Pompom, but there is nothing I can do about it, it really is just dumb unless you use unmons.
Iron Thorns and Cresselia should be freed. As much as I hated having to prepare for Cresselia, its setup sets are quite a downgrade on Galarian Articuno, and it was more of an issue of how I built my team than it really being broken. There was no discussion at all prior to the bans and the overall sentiment on the forum is that this mon was fine. Cresselia really can't do much about Encore, Taunt, Phazing, and opposing Swords Dance users, while being pretty weak and making you feel like you're playing 5 vs 6. The utility sets were really great for the meta and brought some counterplay to Flygon and Mienshao. Deoxys-D should return for the same reasons. As for Iron Thorns, I still can't understand how it's banned. Yeah it can be annoying to face, because it can tera into many types, but let's be honnest, when is the last time you lost to it? These three Pokemon should be retested into the tier once Mienshao and Oricorio get nuked, and I hope we don't see quickbans anymore on Pokémon with so little uses.
tldr: ban Mienshao and Pompom, retest DeoD, Cress, and Thorns, demote pokeslice
Iron Thorns and Cresselia should be freed. As much as I hated having to prepare for Cresselia, its setup sets are quite a downgrade on Galarian Articuno, and it was more of an issue of how I built my team than it really being broken. There was no discussion at all prior to the bans and the overall sentiment on the forum is that this mon was fine. Cresselia really can't do much about Encore, Taunt, Phazing, and opposing Swords Dance users, while being pretty weak and making you feel like you're playing 5 vs 6. The utility sets were really great for the meta and brought some counterplay to Flygon and Mienshao. Deoxys-D should return for the same reasons. As for Iron Thorns, I still can't understand how it's banned. Yeah it can be annoying to face, because it can tera into many types, but let's be honnest, when is the last time you lost to it? These three Pokemon should be retested into the tier once Mienshao and Oricorio get nuked, and I hope we don't see quickbans anymore on Pokémon with so little uses.
tldr: ban Mienshao and Pompom, retest DeoD, Cress, and Thorns, demote pokeslice
Much to Tuthur's delight and Zamansky's dismay, Oricorio-Pom-Pom is now banned after a follow-up council vote. Shengineer and Phantomistix filled in for rotating council due to uncertainty with who all was voting. Marty dhelmise implement when you can pls and thx.
Mienshao suspect test has been talked about internally, expect an update on that soon.
Now talking seriously,
I can repeat my words after the first Pom Pom ban 02/12/24
"Oricoreo. That one I'm grateful that was banned. The different ways it could play drastically changed the way to counter it. And if you guessed wrong you lost on the spot. That and in higher levels how could abuse seeds... The most safe way to beat it would be by phasing. Something that many archetypes don't have access. Thank God it was an overlooked mon probably because it looked silly and didn't have at first look impressive stats. Crazy to think it was PU by usage and is something that the council need to be commended for. Seeing that a mon that even if not abused by the majority of the community didn't have space in a healthy meta game."
Even though we’re discussing different metas now, the issues it presented have only become more pronounced. Back then, the Mono Air Slash with Taunt set wasn’t as dominant, which impacted its consistency due to inaccurate Hurricanes, lack of flinch opportunities and no outs vs Trick/Status/Phasing ... It now requires one or two extra Quiver Dances to achieve a sweep, but that inconsistency ultimately cost more than the new needed time to setup.
The key takeaway is that Pom Pom wasn't banned for being overpowered , but rather for its unhealthy presence in competitive play. It imposed unreasonable pressure on builders, forcing them to go to great lengths to address it within the standard meta. This dynamic encouraged matchup fishing, which undermines the competitive integrity of the game. And there at the hand of the best players it is overpowered and deserving of a ban.
As someone who has been gaming for decades, I believe it’s both reasonable and wise to implement balancing actions aimed at positively affecting different segments of the player base.
Again I commend the council for doing the right thing and banning a PU mon that didn't do us any good.
I can repeat my words after the first Pom Pom ban 02/12/24
"Oricoreo. That one I'm grateful that was banned. The different ways it could play drastically changed the way to counter it. And if you guessed wrong you lost on the spot. That and in higher levels how could abuse seeds... The most safe way to beat it would be by phasing. Something that many archetypes don't have access. Thank God it was an overlooked mon probably because it looked silly and didn't have at first look impressive stats. Crazy to think it was PU by usage and is something that the council need to be commended for. Seeing that a mon that even if not abused by the majority of the community didn't have space in a healthy meta game."
Even though we’re discussing different metas now, the issues it presented have only become more pronounced. Back then, the Mono Air Slash with Taunt set wasn’t as dominant, which impacted its consistency due to inaccurate Hurricanes, lack of flinch opportunities and no outs vs Trick/Status/Phasing ... It now requires one or two extra Quiver Dances to achieve a sweep, but that inconsistency ultimately cost more than the new needed time to setup.
The key takeaway is that Pom Pom wasn't banned for being overpowered , but rather for its unhealthy presence in competitive play. It imposed unreasonable pressure on builders, forcing them to go to great lengths to address it within the standard meta. This dynamic encouraged matchup fishing, which undermines the competitive integrity of the game. And there at the hand of the best players it is overpowered and deserving of a ban.
As someone who has been gaming for decades, I believe it’s both reasonable and wise to implement balancing actions aimed at positively affecting different segments of the player base.
Again I commend the council for doing the right thing and banning a PU mon that didn't do us any good.
Last edited:
wait, i was banned twice?!?!
also who’s this oricorio dude
also who’s this oricorio dude
From the Tiering Policy Framework
Cheese Bird
I really think this part applies to pom pom. Maybe it wasn't broken per se but I do think it was uncompetitive. It had 2 sets (offensive rev dance and the bulky taunt) that had wildly different counterplay. Most of the mons that checked both sets were spdef/av mons with specific coverage that are usually weak to teraground rev dance (ice spinner/body press registeel, edge quake copper, diancie in zong meta... ), dragon tail goodra, landing a trick with munkidori... The best way to handle it seemed to be offensive pressure and sure it folds to a lot of HO teams but especially with the grassy seed defense boost it was good too good at cheesing through tournament games. Either that or using really specific checks that get into unmon territory pretty quickly. Previously I was thinking more along the lines of liking to see more counterplay develop, but I'm just not sure what else there is to develop. This of course is related to basically only tournament play as you didn't really see it on ladder, but tournament play is also important too and part of the tiering policy framework. I won't elaborate too much more as it has already been banned, but I think this was a good and justified ban!Bring out you oricorio-sensus! Good post Be13costa!
Cress
I think perspective largely applies to cress as well, even if I think ori was a bit bigger of an offender. The big difference here is that the cress checks were just also better mons (mainly incin) but the restriction it put on the builder was insane. It definitely isn't unbeatable, but I can see the argument that it is uncompetitive. I wouldn't be totally opposed to a retest down the line but I also don't exactly miss it and the builder feels much more free now.
Shao
Shao has always been good but man, losing talon really opened things up for shao. The obvious component is that talon was a good shao check. It made it not want to click and get flame body burned, it could eat its stab hit easily, and it was really good at revenging both non-scarf sets and scarf sets that lock into any move not named stone edge. We all expected that. What I hadn't considered before (in relation to shao anyways) is how losing talon has effected the hazard game. Shao can both semi-ignore hazards with regenerator, but it is also a really scary hazards abuser. Life orb shao + spikes + rocks is really hard to handle. The checks we do have are much shakier with the threat of knocking their boots and pivoting into another punish. Later with the hazards chip shao can just cc through a lot of them. If y'all want to try it there is a team/replays here from this week of NUTC (shameless plug!) Just wanted to express support for a potential mienshao suspect!
"II.) We cater to both ladder players (the higher end of the ladder) and tournament players."
"Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant."
"This can be matchup related; think the determination that Baton Pass took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team matchup issue, where even the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough."
"Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant."
"This can be matchup related; think the determination that Baton Pass took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team matchup issue, where even the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough."
Cheese BirdI really think this part applies to pom pom. Maybe it wasn't broken per se but I do think it was uncompetitive. It had 2 sets (offensive rev dance and the bulky taunt) that had wildly different counterplay. Most of the mons that checked both sets were spdef/av mons with specific coverage that are usually weak to teraground rev dance (ice spinner/body press registeel, edge quake copper, diancie in zong meta... ), dragon tail goodra, landing a trick with munkidori... The best way to handle it seemed to be offensive pressure and sure it folds to a lot of HO teams but especially with the grassy seed defense boost it was good too good at cheesing through tournament games. Either that or using really specific checks that get into unmon territory pretty quickly. Previously I was thinking more along the lines of liking to see more counterplay develop, but I'm just not sure what else there is to develop. This of course is related to basically only tournament play as you didn't really see it on ladder, but tournament play is also important too and part of the tiering policy framework. I won't elaborate too much more as it has already been banned, but I think this was a good and justified ban!
CressI think perspective largely applies to cress as well, even if I think ori was a bit bigger of an offender. The big difference here is that the cress checks were just also better mons (mainly incin) but the restriction it put on the builder was insane. It definitely isn't unbeatable, but I can see the argument that it is uncompetitive. I wouldn't be totally opposed to a retest down the line but I also don't exactly miss it and the builder feels much more free now.
ShaoShao has always been good but man, losing talon really opened things up for shao. The obvious component is that talon was a good shao check. It made it not want to click and get flame body burned, it could eat its stab hit easily, and it was really good at revenging both non-scarf sets and scarf sets that lock into any move not named stone edge. We all expected that. What I hadn't considered before (in relation to shao anyways) is how losing talon has effected the hazard game. Shao can both semi-ignore hazards with regenerator, but it is also a really scary hazards abuser. Life orb shao + spikes + rocks is really hard to handle. The checks we do have are much shakier with the threat of knocking their boots and pivoting into another punish. Later with the hazards chip shao can just cc through a lot of them. If y'all want to try it there is a team/replays here from this week of NUTC (shameless plug!) Just wanted to express support for a potential mienshao suspect!
Last edited:
An Oricorio-E-legy
by Shengineer
We gather here, in joy and strife,
To mourn the death of pom-pom bird.
It lived a controversial life —
A story many here have heard.
Its foes, though mighty, stood no chance.
"A single turn is all it needs!"
It's Taunt? Or Revelation Dance?
With Lefties, Boots, or Grassy Seeds?
Its brokenness was clear as day
To those who faced this mighty finch.
It thwarted every counterplay:
The Swampert, taunted. The Tauros? Flinched.
"A meta-warping matchup fish!"
Which left the builders quite bemused.
The council granted Momo's wish.
They banned the bird from NeverUsed.
by Shengineer
We gather here, in joy and strife,
To mourn the death of pom-pom bird.
It lived a controversial life —
A story many here have heard.
Its foes, though mighty, stood no chance.
"A single turn is all it needs!"
It's Taunt? Or Revelation Dance?
With Lefties, Boots, or Grassy Seeds?
Its brokenness was clear as day
To those who faced this mighty finch.
It thwarted every counterplay:
The Swampert, taunted. The Tauros? Flinched.
"A meta-warping matchup fish!"
Which left the builders quite bemused.
The council granted Momo's wish.
They banned the bird from NeverUsed.
- Status