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Announcement SV National Dex UU Stage 7.2: Crazy Frog

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Lupla

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:greninja:
:sv/greninja:
:greninja:

Hello everyone! We aren't having a piece of peak ND UU lore this time, we're jumping straight in with both NDPL and NDFL being almost done, the new radar post and a new VR update, the National Dex UU council has decided to Suspect Test Greninja!​


Suspect Test Reasoning:
Just like what was said about Greninja before in the radar post, it started off as a mostly overrated threat due to the abundance of good offensive checks (Mostly Scarf Zapdos-G and Iron Hands) during the time it first entered the tier since the Alpha & Beta stages and then, just like a few of our previous suspected threats, it started to become more and more oppressive as the options for revenge killing it and walling it became more limited.

Despite its offenses looking lackluster at first glance, they're actually enough for this tier in conjunction with STAB and coverage options that handle different checks, While it's not OHKOing any of Clefable, Tapu Fini, M-Venusaur, Rotom-W, Gastrodon, Amoonguss or Celesteela, they’re not exactly reliable checks to Greninja as they either struggle with coverage, longevity or switching into the wrong STAB but with teammates like Mixed Aegislash, M-Gallade or Hydrapple on offense teams and Moltres-Galar, Alakazam or Iron Boulder on HO, it can be trivial for Greninja to break through these checks through repeated attacks and take over the end game.

That's also another point in it's favor: Greninja's clean up potential is not only already good by having a speed tier only beaten by three Pokemon in total (Iron Boulder, Zeraora and M-Aerodactyl) which can’t switch into it, but Battle Bond allows Greninja to easily snowball into a threat that can easily take over any endgame. When defensive checks aren't in a condition to handle it anymore and offense has to play really carefully around it due to most of its pieces being OHKOed as soon as Greninja is at +1, it can often sweep at the drop of a hat. Greninja also forces out all sorts of relevant Pokemon such as Iron Moth, M-Latias, Ting-Lu, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Aegislash, and Life Orb Mienshao while compensating for its lack of bulk with resistances into most priority options in the tier. Particularly notable is that at +1, Greninja cannot be outsped by any speed control option in the tier barring Sand Rush Excadrill and the rare Booster Energy Iron Boulder Which have to avoid being OHKOd by Water Shuriken due to chip and multiple hits, outside of that, HO mirrors are pretty much determined by which Greninja grabs a Battle Bond boost first to win and nothing else.

All of this is just Battle Bond alone; while Protean doesn’t have the same endgame finishing potential, it makes up for it with increased longevity courtesy of Choice Specs over Life Orb alongside greater coverage, being able to more effectively mix and match its colorful coverage in Sludge Wave, Ice Beam, Extrasensory, and Grass Knot while still able to use utility options like Spikes, U-turn, and Water Shuriken. Protean’s greater power is also notable, besides being a massive threat on it’s own, it’s ability to lure common Battle Bond checks like the Grasses, Clefable, Tapu Fini or Gastrodon really enables teammates like Zeraora, Mixed Aegislash or Scarf Mienshao that can easily overwhelm the opposition and keep opening up for each other.

Now for the baggage. What stopped it from being the same fast clean up menace for so long? Greninja’s lack of wallbreaking potential means it often needs a fellow breaker teammate to create openings for it to abuse, which may not be that much support, but it also leaves Greninja much less potent in the early to mid-game as it is later in the game. The reliance on Life Orb and Specs for adequate damage also leaves it with either longevity issues itself (hurting it's late game potential as it is likely to chip itself into priority range) or being incredibly prediction reliant, especially when facing a lot of Water and Dark resists of which there are plenty of with the abundance of Grass types like Amoonguss, M-Venusaur and Hydrapple and lastly are the few offensive checks to it: Iron Boulder, Zeraora, M-Aerodactyl, Lokix and Scarf Mienshao which despite their fear of directly switching into Greninja, they're still massive issues for it due to its lack of bulk. Greninja isn’t the same auto-play wincon it used to be last generation the moment it grabbed a kill; it needs more support than before and can sometimes come up short. However, it's a little too oppressive in the builder and in matches with how much of the tier it's able to threaten and force out while most ways of dealing with it are not consistent enough to keep up even when requiring better positioning, that doesn't stop the NDUU council from considering it a problem in the current metagame.

Suspect Test Information

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS


The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:
  • Create a new account OR use an existing one with no National Dex UU games played (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played National Dex UU before the test, ever.) You do not have to follow any specific naming rule but your suspect account must have never played a game in National Dex UU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements.
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
  • After you linked your account, if you play one game with the alt, you have to play at least one game in order to verify and then do /rank in order to see the "Suspect Test elligible" message
  • 1731277916236.png

    [*]If this field says "No" then you have either not set up the account correctly or need to use a different/new account. You do not need to complete your entire reqs for this field to say "Yes"
  • After you believe that you have achieved reqs, double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact Lupla, Niadev, or any staff member.
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted.
  • We will be using the regular National Dex UU ladder for this suspect test, and Greninja will remain legal throughout the entire suspect test.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 3000 with a B-Value of 3.
  • 75.5313
    76153
    76.5106
    7780
    77.564
    7854
    78.546
    7941
    79.536
    8033
    80.530
    8128
    81.526
    8224
    82.522
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    [*]
The suspect test will last until November 24th 11:59 PM GMT -7. Tagging dhelmise and Marty to implement the suspect on ladder whenever possible! Thanks a lot!
 
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I would also like to add that we're including Room Tournament Suspects into this as well! These tournaments have the suspect in mind and can be played for reqs for those who couldn't get them in ladder or if they're looking for a more sanity-preserving way to obtain them. In these, both the winner and the runner-up will obtain reqs, if someone who already has reqs off COIL or the tournaments themselves, you can still participate altho we would appreciate it if you don't. The Tournaments will be hosted on both weekends of the suspect test (except this one) by me and the times for them are:

November 16th and 23rd 2:00 PM GMT -7 PST / 9 PM GMT -4
November 17th and 24th 9:00 PM GMT -7 PST / 3 AM GMT -4

 
Hey everyone! The 1st Room Tour for the suspect has concluded with :sealeo: sealoo and :garchomp: Niadev being the winner and runner up respectively! Tomorrow will have one for those that don't have the best timezones available but still would like to participate in some way but before that happens we're announcing a quick change for the next 3 tournaments:

  • Suspect tournaments with less than 16 people will only have the winner receiving reqs, 16 and above will include the runner up.
While we wanna give better chances so your sanity is preserved from the ladder, this tournament was still really scuffed and it'll be too free otherwise. We'll also try to announce these 30 minutes before it starts on the Discord and the ND UU room to stay tuned in any of those places as well as the tournament itself starting which will also have an indefinite timer in order to gather up people. Just a quick change here and if anyone has any other question then be sure to ask in DMs, thanks to those who participated and see yall in the other tournaments!
 
Hey everyone! The 1st Room Tour for the suspect has concluded with :sealeo: sealoo and :garchomp: Niadev being the winner and runner up respectively! Tomorrow will have one for those that don't have the best timezones available but still would like to participate in some way but before that happens we're announcing a quick change for the next 3 tournaments:

  • Suspect tournaments with less than 16 people will only have the winner receiving reqs, 16 and above will include the runner up.
While we wanna give better chances so your sanity is preserved from the ladder, this tournament was still really scuffed and it'll be too free otherwise. We'll also try to announce these 30 minutes before it starts on the Discord and the ND UU room to stay tuned in any of those places as well as the tournament itself starting which will also have an indefinite timer in order to gather up people. Just a quick change here and if anyone has any other question then be sure to ask in DMs, thanks to those who participated and see yall in the other tournaments!
Tragic case of #NDUUCorruption, tier leaders pulling up the ladder after one of their own gets reqs smh my head

Since I got reqs (they call me Classic Dalek because I'm avoiding the ladder), I will be voting BAN on Greninja.

Greninja has always been tenuous to build around, but when it was only really Protean, you could usually slap on a cope Steela and call it a day since it didn't get in as much. Once it clicked a move you could go into the resist, since they were all specs, and you could RK it anyways with most decent speed control. Most of the time it tended to click Hydro or DPulse due to being the most spammable/powerful, so it wasn't a huge deal to run a resist to STABs like Hydreigon or the more niche Zarude and usually have a workable MU. This is part of why it was manageable for so long. The big problem with Greninja is that most of our switchins are either prone to chip (Mega Venusaur, Celesteela, Tapu Fini, Hydreigon, Zarude), weak to common coverage (Hydrapple, Amoonguss, Hydreigon, Zarude, Tapu Fini, AV Tang), are often tasked with checking multiple other threats so are prone to being overloaded (MVenu, Celesteela, Tapu Fini) or, sometimes, all of the above (Tapu Fini, Hydreigon and Zarude). Alternatively, they're incredibly shaky (PDef Gastrodon) or require some wacky nonsense like SpDef Washtom (sorry but I actually kind of like beating Exca and checking SD Aegi).

Realistically, the only reliable long term answers are SpDef Gastro and the blobs, the latter of which are such a pain to run off of stall that Blissey teams in and of themselves are their own playstyle. Then, even the reliable checks can just get randomly blindsided by ESense or something. Protean is fine since you can at least actually revenge kill it if it takes out your check, but if BBond gets a kill, you better be running Scarf Boulder and pray it's not Water Shuriken. If you run HO, just forfeit there and then tbh.

LO also makes it harder in some ways, as several checks that could rely on coming in after the lock was confirmed like Hydrapple can now just get bopped into next century the next turn by coverage. It's not like BBond's weak enough for coverage to bounce off bulkier ones, either, and this thing has a pretty customisable third and sometimes fourth moveslot. Sure, LO is pretty easy to spot once it attacks, but that's missing the point - the fact of the matter is that LO's ability to switch moves means relying on forcing a lock is no longer reliable counterplay, shutting your options in the builder and in game down considerably.

The argument that LO chip limits it kind of falls flat when you realise that LO is more of a win condition than a breaker, and not something you'll (usually) be throwing out every other turn, unlike in AGren's golden days of gen 7. Even then, it doesn't need much HP to wipe out your team, either, so you can throw it out for 4 or 5 strong Hydros mid game (5 since one of those will be the sweep starting kill) assuming it doesn't catch a stray BP or something - LO is only 10% lost HP after all, not 25%, and you resist most relevant prio anyways (Aegi Sneak, Sciz BP, Azu AJet). You only really run afoul of Fake Out from LO Mienshao, who has to switch out and sack another member of its team since, surprise surprise, the non STAB priority from a mon with 120 base attack doesn't actually do that much damage.

252 Atk Life Orb Mienshao Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 77-91 (27 - 31.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

For reference, you have enough HP to take two high roll Fake Outs and still fire off 4 attacks before dying. Even if you kill this thing mid sweep, odds are it's taking several mons with it, still putting you at a massive disadvantage. Sure, sometimes it's a last mon situation, but generally, that rarely ends up the case, so that's just an unhelpful what if that doesn't reflect reality. LO mostly comes into play if you're trying to break down/flinch fish a recover spamming mon like Gastro or MVenu, which you shouldn't really be attempting unless you're very confident they have no prio or a higher being came down to tell you all your DPulses will flinch today.

And, of course, there's always the issue of the Gren guessing game. Normally, I don't like to use the 'too many sets' card unless the sets have notably different counterplay, and each of those sets have limited counterplay in their own right, but this is one of those times where it feels right, because, well, that's exactly what's going on with gren. Sure, sometimes you can get a rough idea of the set (BBond if they lack a wincon otherwise, sometimes but not always Protean if they lack a particularly powerful wallbreaker), but a decent amount of the time it can be a bit of a toss up. You can argue this is something of a skill issue, but sometimes it's just genuinely really hard to tell even if you're fairly experienced, and if you guess wrong there's the chance your check will get smoked by Protean and now you have an issue with the said Protean Gren because you wanted to avoid risking Celesteela chip for a potential lategame BBond sweep, and Celesteela is a flimsy Specs answer at the best of times. You can try to pressure it so that it can't come in, sure, but now you're limiting your available plays, putting yourself at an inherent disadvantage in most games.

As a result, Greninja is constraining both on the builder and in game, the former more than the latter since your only options are run SpDef Gastro or blobs, or be forced to play Greninja's Wacky Set and Coverage Adventure and risk having your check get bopped by a coverage move or make a suboptimal play to scout it and get caught out for it. However, while the issue is a combination of the two major sets, mostly it's down to BBond being impossible to RK once its teammates get enough chip for a kill.

I won't pretend this mon is some invincible Schrodinger's Frog that will sweep your team at a moment's notice, but the impact it has gives it and its user an inherent advantage if your opponent isn't doing the same, which sounds pretty textbook broken to me. Hence, as I mentioned before, I will be voting BAN.
 
Niadev already stole everything I wanted to say (and stole reqs :changry:) so I'll add my biggest frustration with Greninja.

Protean is honestly more bearable despite its higher breaking power given that its actually possible to revenge KO. Sure it rips through the entire tier barring the Blobs, but at least my Zeraora or Mienshao or whatever can come in after I lose a Mon and force it out.

Battle Bond just throws literally all counterplay out the window. No longer can you pivot around Greninja, no longer can you just sac something and revenge it. If you don't have something capable of taking 2 hits from Battle Bond, well then GG. +1 Hydro OHKOs pretty much the entire offensive metagame, and Sludge Wave and Dark Pulse ensure pretty much nothing can resist all of Greninja's coverage. Throw in a flexible fourth slot, often Water Shuriken to KO the ONLY (viable) OPTION capable of outspeeding it at +1 in Sand Rush Excadrill, and offense is cooked. The discovery of Primarina is, in my option, solely due to Greninja so easily shutting down Offense teams that something needs to be able to take its hits. And even Primarina is 3HKO'd by Sludge Wave, liable to be worn down through a game, and can be taken advantage of by other offensive teammates it also needs to check, like Moltres-Galar and AutoSteela.

Oh also, Greninja resists almost every form of viable priority (thank you Keldeo for getting Vacuum Wave this gen). This means you can neither outspeed it nor beat it with priority. And EVEN IF you chipped into range of Scizor Bullet Punch or something similar, it COULD STILL just use Water Shuriken and KO or chip you before you can take it out.

Greninja makes building offense completely impossible. There are so many threats to deal with already, and so you have to pick and choose what few mons you can handle defensively on these teams. But typical offensive countermeasures to dangerous threats like Iron Moth, Mega Gallade, Iron Boulder, etc. don't work against Greninja. Its outbulk or die. I feel like Greninja leaving gives offense a huge amount of room to experiment and figure out ways to break past the defensive metagame staples. Right now, Fighters seem like the second most broken thing in the tier, and Greninja leaving also gives defensive teams the chance to maybe experiment more with things like Slowbro or Sinistcha that can handle our current fighters.
 
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Inhale.... Exhale....


:pmd/Greninja:



After Cinderace was given the boot many months ago, I would've thought Greninja could be on the more balanced side of things. I really did. Truthfully. However with those expectations come the many, many, MANYYYY, busted sets. Specs Battle Bond is very high value damage, One could run the good old fashioned Protean sets with 3 attack 1 support in things like spikes for better hazard stack chip though its unlikely. The truth of the matter is that this frog is coherently broken, at least to me. Anything I list currently will be opinion based of my own views of this current metagame. Greninja has become very centralizing. After Gapdos was given the boot I didn't think we would center our lovely tier with the likes of a frog that was deemed busted in SM.

To see the clear picture with this fraudulent battle flipping frog; to what I've seen the following are really the best thing to check it. :celesteela: unaware :clefable: :Blissey: and :ting Lu: with some reasonable situations involving hazard + the occasional hydro pump miss. Now there COULD be MORE that I have yet to see as my time in this tier is off and on with my other orderly duties but that is the majority of what I have seen. Having to place 1 of these 4 into a team seems relatively easy enough but regardless you still have to prepare heavily for the likes of it and even then with how current metagame is going everyone is preparing to counter this frog. So by adding 1 of the 4 previously listed JUST to potentially counter the idea of Battle Bond shredding through each and every match, it becomes quite frustrating.


Personally I am doing reqs to ban this thing. As far as I am concerned, Protean isn't the reason why this frog is broken. Its Battle Bond. A near omni boost to its 3 best stats in Attack, Special Attack, and its already base 377 Speed when maxing out plus running Jolly? Yeah no. Bye Frog.
 
Inhale.... Exhale....


:pmd/Greninja:



After Cinderace was given the boot many months ago, I would've thought Greninja could be on the more balanced side of things. I really did. Truthfully. However with those expectations come the many, many, MANYYYY, busted sets. Specs Battle Bond is very high value damage, One could run the good old fashioned Protean sets with 3 attack 1 support in things like spikes for better hazard stack chip though its unlikely. The truth of the matter is that this frog is coherently broken, at least to me. Anything I list currently will be opinion based of my own views of this current metagame. Greninja has become very centralizing. After Gapdos was given the boot I didn't think we would center our lovely tier with the likes of a frog that was deemed busted in SM.

To see the clear picture with this fraudulent battle flipping frog; to what I've seen the following are really the best thing to check it. :celesteela: unaware :clefable: :Blissey: and :ting Lu: with some reasonable situations involving hazard + the occasional hydro pump miss. Now there COULD be MORE that I have yet to see as my time in this tier is off and on with my other orderly duties but that is the majority of what I have seen. Having to place 1 of these 4 into a team seems relatively easy enough but regardless you still have to prepare heavily for the likes of it and even then with how current metagame is going everyone is preparing to counter this frog. So by adding 1 of the 4 previously listed JUST to potentially counter the idea of Battle Bond shredding through each and every match, it becomes quite frustrating.


Personally I am doing reqs to ban this thing. As far as I am concerned, Protean isn't the reason why this frog is broken. Its Battle Bond. A near omni boost to its 3 best stats in Attack, Special Attack, and its already base 377 Speed when maxing out plus running Jolly? Yeah no. Bye Frog.
To be clear, the 1 out of 4 I listed are reasonably after the Battle Bond boost*, Zeraora outspeeds along with Iron Boulder as well.
 
(Keep in mind this is my first time playing NDUU, take my words with a grain of salt)

I think Gren definitely deserves to be banned, not only due its ludicrous offensive capabilites with lorb a high speed tie, and battle bond, but due to the amount of opportunities it gets to switch in on a mon that can't hurt it and force a KO. It's also a great revenge killer with water shuriken, picking off mons like Blacephalon, Excadrill, Mamoswine, Moth, Boulder and others. I think that all things considered, I will be voting Ban on Greninja.

Here reqs:
 

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FINALLY DONE!

Get this frog out of my tier|

Edit: Runo is holding me at gunpoint to add a reasoning, so I should probably write something more. Basic premise is pretty much what Danbear said. Specs is a great breaker but not impossible to switch into if you're willing to outplay a little, and revenging it isn't the hardest thing in the world either. But lorb is just unreasonable to manage, you can be winning the entire game then get swept at the drop of a hat because you just weren't able to keep anything healthy enough to eat a hit. Absolutely unhealthy for the tier, even if it's best supported on a severely nerfed HO.
 
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9 users who have earned voting requisites have not voted yet, but their votes will not affect the outcome of the vote.

Eligible Voters: 22
Votes: 13

Greninja
Ban: 12
Do Not Ban: 1
Ban % = 92.31%

50% +1 pro-ban majority of ban is required for a ban, and no further Do Not Ban votes can alter the result. Therefore, Greninja is now banned from SV National Dex UU. Tagging Marty and dhelmise to implement, thank you!

Thank you to all who have voted. The vote will remain open for until the deadline at 11:59pm -5 @ November 27th to allow the remaining people with voting requirements to vote and have their vote count towards the Tiering Contributor badge if they so please. I will close voting at this time.

Votes will be made public at the formal deadline.
 
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