Regarding Iron Boulder, using it as SD Sweeper with Booster Energy is wrong in my opinion. Band Adamant with Tera Rock worked much better for me, its worse vs offensive teams, but anything slower takes A LOT of damage. Many people also don,t know that Mighty Cleave bypasses Protect, so they send Gliscor to scout and it gets 2HKOd. Dondozo without Tera Fight also needs just a little chip to be 2HKOd. Boulder for sure is far from the Top Tier it looked the first few weeks of DLC2, but its still a viable Mon.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
what boulder did you use, and did u try mbeam glimmora? when i tried rockspam, both of those popped off, so im kinda curious your experienceLately, I've been casually laddering OU to figure out the ever important question of what types are the best to brainlessly spam on the OU ladder. You all already know that DarkSpam and FairySpam are the two best spam types in the game as proven time and time again in tournament and in ladder so I don't need to comment on those, but I figured it would be fun to see if there are any other types that are lowkey underrated when it comes to spamming them on Bulky Offense/HO. Might eventually create a personal tierlist for the heck of it, but I figured I'd share with y'all the results I've had so far.
RockSpam:
If I were to describe RockSpam in two words, it would be HOLY ASS. Despite hitting 5 types super effective with your coverage, having decent to great targets to smack up in the tier like Kyurem and the birds, and usually having great coverage to complement rock type, you'd be surprised at how bad this type is (at least in my experience). I think the crux of the issue is that rock types genuinely have 0 defensive utility in the tier, and so many mons just poke a shit ton of holes into your team that it's insane. In particular, I found Well-Spring to be a huge pain in the ass cuz it does such a good job at breaking through the defensive holes that stacking two rock types creates. Also doesn't help that you only have two mons on Rock that have 100% accurate stab. Cornerstone is definitely the bright spot of this type comp since its fast but also actually hits hard, and I had the most success pairing it with Band Tar to occasionally pull off a sweep. Still, I don't think the upside of Rock's offenses are enough to compensate for the sheer ass the best mons on the type are at being defensively sound.
Iron Boulder, on the other hand, is complete ass. Holy fuck, I do not get how this thing is still ranked B- on the VR. Hits like a complete wet noodle, it never 2HKOs any of the mons you need it to, gets OHKOed by a light breeze, and its amazing speed tier is legitimately wasted on it. Genuinely might be the worst mon I've ever had the displeasure of playing with since unlike most shitmons, you actually expect Iron Boulder to do something. Avalugg-Hisui was also something I fucked around with for a bit. Stole the lead Avalugg tech from an aim video, and its lowkey pretty funny to use in the leadslot. I wouldn't call it good by any stretch of the imagination, but plenty of ladder kids underestimate how much damage output loaded dice Avalugg can shit out.
Rating: D Tier --> Ass
This is the real tech. Band Boulder puts in wayyyy more work than you'd expect, half due to ppl being surprised by its raw immediate power and the fact its speed tier lets it do very very funny things. Booster is trash, I did have fun with a AV set due to its surprising bulk but overall I feel like Band is the way to go.
I actually did try mbeam glim but it wasn’t really that insane to me. It also wasn’t bad though, so it wasn’t notable enough for me to mention it unlike boulder or Avalugg. Probably could have built better around it, but I just kept running into Lu teams on ladder that were somehow 100% teched to deal with it so I dropped it.
If I were to retry RockSpam again, which I probably will after trying out the other types, I’ll look into running Band Boulder. Was just really disappointed with how insanely ass Booster Boulder was, and the experience soured me on trying out other variants (which I definitely should have tried)
Lately, I've been casually laddering OU to figure out the ever important question of what types are the best to brainlessly spam on the OU ladder. You all already know that DarkSpam and FairySpam are the two best spam types in the game as proven time and time again in tournament and in ladder so I don't need to comment on those, but I figured it would be fun to see if there are any other types that are lowkey underrated when it comes to spamming them on Bulky Offense/HO. Might eventually create a personal tierlist for the heck of it, but I figured I'd share with y'all the results I've had so far.
RockSpam:
If I were to describe RockSpam in two words, it would be HOLY ASS. Despite hitting 5 types super effective with your coverage, having decent to great targets to smack up in the tier like Kyurem and the birds, and usually having great coverage to complement rock type, you'd be surprised at how bad this type is (at least in my experience). I think the crux of the issue is that rock types genuinely have 0 defensive utility in the tier, and so many mons just poke a shit ton of holes into your team that it's insane. In particular, I found Well-Spring to be a huge pain in the ass cuz it does such a good job at breaking through the defensive holes that stacking two rock types creates. Also doesn't help that you only have two mons on Rock that have 100% accurate stab. Cornerstone is definitely the bright spot of this type comp since its fast but also actually hits hard, and I had the most success pairing it with Band Tar to occasionally pull off a sweep. Still, I don't think the upside of Rock's offenses are enough to compensate for the sheer ass the best mons on the type are at being defensively sound.
Iron Boulder, on the other hand, is complete ass. Holy fuck, I do not get how this thing is still ranked B- on the VR. Hits like a complete wet noodle, it never 2HKOs any of the mons you need it to, gets OHKOed by a light breeze, and its amazing speed tier is legitimately wasted on it. Genuinely might be the worst mon I've ever had the displeasure of playing with since unlike most shitmons, you actually expect Iron Boulder to do something. Avalugg-Hisui was also something I fucked around with for a bit. Stole the lead Avalugg tech from an aim video, and its lowkey pretty funny to use in the leadslot. I wouldn't call it good by any stretch of the imagination, but plenty of ladder kids underestimate how much damage output loaded dice Avalugg can shit out.
Rating: D Tier --> Ass
BirdSpam:
BirdSpam is a certified Smogon classic, so you know I had to try it next. That being said, despite its historic bustedness, BirdSpam is weird af in Gen 9. You got a bunch of really good mons with the flying type, but practically none of them are capable of using their Flying Type offensively. Lando and Dnite don't got reliable flying stab. Hurricane is not a real move so none of the Gen 1 Legendary Birds, Iron Jugulis etc are helpful. A lot of the really cracked Flying Attackers have to waste tera to be able to use Flying Type which puts it in this weird and inflexible spot when it comes to teambuilding. Despite that, you do have some standouts. Zapdos-G got some goated coverage and hits hard with the band but its 100 speed tier is painfully slow this gen (losing to Wellspring is not a good look). You could theoretically justify running Dual Wingbeat on Gliscor but I don't know if I would bother. Salamence and Dragonite can put in some work as Ddance sweepers, but Roaring Moon might unironically be BirdSpam's strongest warrior this gen with Booster Acro, so I just ended up using Zapdos-G and Roaring Goon as the bird-spam template.
I genuinely can't tell if this type is a bad spam type or not because of how awkward it was to build with, but it did decently enough in my experience. That being said, I think the strength's of flying plus the busted nature of Roaring Goon at least makes this a pretty damn decent type in hands of an actually skilled player, so I'd say that you should try this one out if you want to try your hand at an unorthodox team comp.
Rating: B Tier --> Might be good but I'm not good enough for it :(
BugSpam:
On paper, you might say that BugSpam is the worst offensive spam type in the game considering the only worthwhile type you hit SO is Dark, and that's what I thought would happen initially too. In practice, I actually think BugSpam is a lot better than you might think. Scizor and Lokix are the only two mons I'd bother with for this playstyle, but they actually do a decent job at pressuring their common checks with Knock and U-Turn. More importantly though, Scizor has actual use defensively even if you're rocking the classic CB BulletPunch. Lando + Samu + Iron Crown is one of the most solid cores out there, and in my experience, Scizor can reasonably fit into the Iron Crown slot provided you slot in a fairy type to take care of the stuff Scizor can't cover that Crown can. I used Haterene to do that, and I honestly might start using that 4 mon core more since it was so solid. Haterene + Taunt Lando is just amazing at aggressively keeping hazards off without the need for a Rapid Spinner, and Lokix and Scizor put in the work through U-Turn cycling down the team and fucking up their offensive mons with priority. Special shout out to all the midladder stall teams I faced cuz Scizor + Lokix Knock + U-Turn directly into Haterene was basically a guaranteed 6-0.
Haven't tried out every type to form an opinion, but I genuinely think BugSpam is better than RockSpam on account of Scizor being the giga-goat and Lokix its greatest disciple. That being said, I'll tentatively slot it into C Tier for now.
BugSpam: C-Tier (but better than I expected!)
NormalSpam has surprisingly good offensive presence:
Maushold - the difficulties in coming in do not negate that STAB Technician Population Bomb is an effective 450 BP move. Raw bulk will not save the target; counting the miss chance, it's almost exactly a 50-50 to 2HKO a 252/252+ Dondozo. Tidy Up offers boosting, Encore offers utility (exceptionally valuable versus last-mon Kingambit, among other targets), and Technician Bite does solid chip to ghosts.
Tera Ghost to get past Corviknight, Tera Dark to get past Gholdengo, Tera Normal if you're a madlad who likes funny numbers (it doesn't offer much). Requires Knock Off support, and can anti-lead Sticky Webs.
Ursaluna - the parade continues with the laziest of beasts. Facade/Headlong/Fire Punch hits everything, even if you're not going to get too many chances to attack due to that slow speed. On the other hand, all you really need to do is poke a hole or two; few teams have more than two mons that can sponge Normal attacks well, so if you can trade for one of them, that's a huge win. On a NormalSpam team, specifically, I'd suggest Tera Fire; Sinistcha is a nightmare to get past, and +2 Tera Fire Fire Punch is a coinflip to OHKO while resisting Matcha Gotcha in return, while OHKOing non-bulky Gholdengo at +0 and a 30% chance to OHKO the bulky sets.
Dragonite - it's Dragonite, doing normal Dragonite things. NormalSpam doesn't otherwise feature tera hogs, so you're as free as any team to commit to Tera Normal Extremespeed.
Gliscor - I probably wouldn't run Gliscor on the same team as Dragonite, since the SD/Facade sets like having Tera Normal available, and I think it's overall a better pairing due to synergy with Maushold. Knock Off/Facade would be the play here to remove Ghost types and Rocky Helmets, while the Ursaluna + Gliscor pairing ensures that a physically offensive team doesn't get folded in half by bulky Moltres. Similarly, I'd lean toward a specially bulky spread to partially offset Ursaluna's poor special bulk.
Slowking-G - Hello, my name is 4x Fighting resist with a pivot move and a good defensive profile on a team that lacks special bulk. The team is mostly fairly slow, so Thunder Wave is also appreciated - or, if you are a true madlad, Trick Room to turn Ursaluna into a sweeper.
Great Tusk - less so for Rapid Spin (though that's greatly appreciated when at least 2-3 team members lack HDB) and more for the good matchup into Ghosts and Steels, as well as further Knock Off support for Maushold and a second strong answer to last mon Kingambit.
THE MADLAD CHOICES:
Conkeldurr - Guts Facade to spam more Normal moves, Knock Off for Ghosts, Fighting STAB for Steels, and Mach Punch so we have some form of priority. It's also another mon that can brute force its way past Dondozo, helping cover for the lack of special attackers, so you might want to run Drain Punch over Close Combat to improve that matchup; Waterfall doesn't hit terribly hard, and Sleep Talk calling Curse is less of a problem when that lets Maushold switch in and Encore, simultaneously forcing Dondozo out and giving Maushold a (mostly) safe entry.
Staraptor - specifically, the Choice Band set, running Double Edge and Quick Attack both, as we really, truly need the priority. Banded Reckless STAB Double Edge is a suicide move, but if the opponent is out of resists, it's going to kill something with every attack.
FLAWS:
This team archetype is slow, though it has enough bulk to trade hits with HO acceptably well. Ninetails-A might be worth experimenting with, as Ursaluna behind screens is an ungodly trade machine, and Maushold loves the reduced damage to Tidy Up and begin sweeping.
I've experimented with Rock Spam and Bird Spam.
Here's my rock team:
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The basic idea is that Golem-Alola traps Kingambit and Corviknight/Skarmory to enable Ogerpon-C and meteor beam Minior to sweep.
Here's my flying team:
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In my opinion, bird spam has the potential to be legitimately good, especially because of all the spikes stack and webs teams everywhere. Tera Ice Dragonite flips the matchup against Great Tusk and Kyurem. Corviknight with Bulk Up+Body Press+Brave Bird is good into Kingambit even if it's Tera Ghost.
Here's my rock team:
-----The basic idea is that Golem-Alola traps Kingambit and Corviknight/Skarmory to enable Ogerpon-C and meteor beam Minior to sweep.
Here's my flying team:
-----In my opinion, bird spam has the potential to be legitimately good, especially because of all the spikes stack and webs teams everywhere. Tera Ice Dragonite flips the matchup against Great Tusk and Kyurem. Corviknight with Bulk Up+Body Press+Brave Bird is good into Kingambit even if it's Tera Ghost.
A tip for building type spam, which I didn't know how to put into words until some people helped me out with thatI've experimented with Rock Spam and Bird Spam.
Here's my rock team:
The basic idea is that Golem-Alola traps Kingambit and Corviknight/Skarmory to enable Ogerpon-C and meteor beam Minior to sweep.
Here's my flying team:
In my opinion, bird spam has the potential to be legitimately good, especially because of all the spikes stack and webs teams everywhere. Tera Ice Dragonite flips the matchup against Great Tusk and Kyurem. Corviknight with Bulk Up+Body Press+Brave Bird is good into Kingambit even if it's Tera Ghost.
Put mons that check the mons that check your type spam, lets see an example
this is a darkspam built by s7a (link here)
you can see it has 3 dark mons, you know, the strongest he could slap on, the usual, but then the important stuff is the 3 non dark mons, zama, glim, eman
Zamazenta helps vs the enemy darks aswell as enemy zamazentas so that the darks can sweep, Zama also helps vs enemy dragonite, letting kingambit not take unnecesary damage in walling it
Glimmora lets them absorb t-spikes and helps vs the webs matchup, which helps roaring moon and zama in particular
enam can outspeed pult with choice scarf, potentially saving the darks from burns, can also check cinderace for the same reasons, it naturally quad resists figthing and with tera ground it checks raging bolt too
when put all of these into a team, you have 3 members who can overwhelm dark checks, and then the darks can eat whatever is left, now, this team IS OUTDATED, it came out almost a year ago, so when building consider the state of the meta, which as of me writing this right now consists on gholdengo + ting lu + dragonite bulky cores with mons like zamazenta, weavile, kyurem and pecharunt not far behind
I tried Iron Boulder on a psychic terrain team. Gives a solid damage boost, covers it's sucker punch, bullet punch and aqua jet weaknesses. Felt like psyspam could use a physical sweeper.
Still felt terrible. Was difficult to get in with its zero real resists. Stacking ground weaknesses with Iron Crown felt miserable, the 2 had zero synergy and crown felt waaaay better.
The choice between close combat to hit Ting-Lu or earthquake to hit Gholdengo is just so brutal for this mon. Either way it's getting hard walled by some of the most common mons in the tier.
Haven't tried banded. Seems difficult when what... 75% of the top 20 mons resist rock?
Still felt terrible. Was difficult to get in with its zero real resists. Stacking ground weaknesses with Iron Crown felt miserable, the 2 had zero synergy and crown felt waaaay better.
The choice between close combat to hit Ting-Lu or earthquake to hit Gholdengo is just so brutal for this mon. Either way it's getting hard walled by some of the most common mons in the tier.
Haven't tried banded. Seems difficult when what... 75% of the top 20 mons resist rock?
I was wondering why you don't see many mons running Rock coverage this generation and then I saw that the 4 highest ranking mons all resist it.
I kinda wanna run a Smack Down set on a strong Ground type Mon with a Ground Tera for double STAB. I was thinking either Great Tusk or Ursaluna
Where do you guys think Ground Spam ranks?
I kinda wanna run a Smack Down set on a strong Ground type Mon with a Ground Tera for double STAB. I was thinking either Great Tusk or Ursaluna
Where do you guys think Ground Spam ranks?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2308869097-1ny6yi471ix3w9j1f3ttqhu9an8y21dpw
Repping choice specs doom desire jirachi against the top 100 and coming out ahead. The power difference between that and future sight is shocking.
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Gliscor: 304-358 (85.8 - 101.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'm unsure what spread people run on gliscor... Apologies if this is irrelevant. Max speed variants OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 624-734 (159.5 - 187.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 343-405 (89.7 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Only relevant things future sight hit harder are iron moth, ogerpon, walking wake and raging bolt. Pech technically but it already takes 90% from doom desire. Granted they're big threats, but that's why you position to force them out when it's coming.
Repping choice specs doom desire jirachi against the top 100 and coming out ahead. The power difference between that and future sight is shocking.
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 144 SpD Gliscor: 304-358 (85.8 - 101.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'm unsure what spread people run on gliscor... Apologies if this is irrelevant. Max speed variants OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 624-734 (159.5 - 187.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Doom Desire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 343-405 (89.7 - 106%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Only relevant things future sight hit harder are iron moth, ogerpon, walking wake and raging bolt. Pech technically but it already takes 90% from doom desire. Granted they're big threats, but that's why you position to force them out when it's coming.
does that work? i know specs doesnt boost fsight if you arent on the field when it goes off
More than 2 ground types on a team sounds like a recipe for disaster in a meta with Wellspring.
anyone watch the Pokemon Presents? one step closer to my dream of Grass-Fairy Triage Kalosian Meganium <3
to not make this too off-topic, i never thought Solgaleo would be a reasonable thing to suggest but I've been swayed tbh
I've been playing again semi-regularly after having put off showdown for a bit, how are we feeling on Pecha joining the tier? its one of my fav additions this gen, and its so fun, i have been trying NP TB Fighting, not too many good results, but oh well. what are some of your teams/techs/synergies/strats for pecha?
to not make this too off-topic, i never thought Solgaleo would be a reasonable thing to suggest but I've been swayed tbh
I've been playing again semi-regularly after having put off showdown for a bit, how are we feeling on Pecha joining the tier? its one of my fav additions this gen, and its so fun, i have been trying NP TB Fighting, not too many good results, but oh well. what are some of your teams/techs/synergies/strats for pecha?
Rocky Helmet Pecha with Tera Ghost+Shadow Ball. Walls most things for days that aren't gambit and its able to trade very well vs a lot of common switches. That chip is insane!
The opposite of what you asked for, but anti Pecha tech in Clear Amulet is kinda interesting. Gambit especially makes a good user of it since it can switch in on Malignant, then punish Pecha for trying to Parting Shot out. It also softens the Lando matchup since you're now immune to Intimidate. For the cherry on top, it invalidates webs and random defense drops (not that webs really affect Gambit but for other mons it matters)
I miss bird spam so much. I remember an OLD team BlameTruth made in gen6 with staraptor, mega pinsir and talonflame that slapped so hard. I think he just called it brave bird everything.
I feel like the main problem nowadays is they just aren’t fast enough. Gen 6 talonflame showed that flying types that can outspeed everything are terrifying.
I feel like the main problem nowadays is they just aren’t fast enough. Gen 6 talonflame showed that flying types that can outspeed everything are terrifying.
Tired of getting walled by pecharunt? Looking for a new phys breaker that's equal parts power and flair? Look no further. Squawkabilliam is here.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2309189468
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2307366947-ldsvvvedm3so7w1kmnln2jdybgepgyqpw
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Tera Normal Squawkabilly-Blue Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 312-368 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Squawk squawk, motherfuckers.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2309189468
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2307366947-ldsvvvedm3so7w1kmnln2jdybgepgyqpw
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Tera Normal Squawkabilly-Blue Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 312-368 (61.9 - 73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Squawk squawk, motherfuckers.
tbh billy does have a good speed tier with outpacing tusk and pecha and even lando, and lots of power if you hit. The main issues are a. its even frailer than most breakers and b. wyd when that dozo tera ghosts tho-
Tera flying brave bird is probably better than tera normal double edge because it hits ghosts and the only type that resists flying but not normal is electric
The reason I'm going with tera normal is for the stronger prio (which came in clutch in that sun game). But tera flying bb is unwallable yeah, no switchins at all (except corv).
That's a good question. There is nothing on bulbapedia about it, whereas they do have a note for future sight. I guess I'd have to test it in a friendly to know for sure.
This is for for SM OU, so no idea if it applies for SV OU:
Ditto:
-If u are on the field, FS takes the spA of the copied pokemon
-If u left the field, FS takes the spA of Ditto and not the copied pokemon
Psychic Terrain:
-User still on the field during the Hit = affected by PT
-User still on the field during Hit, clicked FS under Psy Terrain but Hit after PT = not affected by PT
-User left the field during the Hit, PT was set-up during the Hit = affected by PT
-User left the field during the Hit, PT was set-up during the whole sequence = affected by PT
Calm Mind:
-User still on the field during the Hit at +1 = affected by the boost
-User still on the field during the Hit, FS clicked at +1 but was at +2 during the Hit = affected by the current boost
-User left the field during the Hit = not affected by the boost
Specs:
-User still on the field during the Hit = affected by Specs
-User left the field during the Hit = not affected by Specs
-User left the fiend and return on it during the Hit = affected by Specs
-If u are on the field, FS takes the spA of the copied pokemon
-If u left the field, FS takes the spA of Ditto and not the copied pokemon
Psychic Terrain:
-User still on the field during the Hit = affected by PT
-User still on the field during Hit, clicked FS under Psy Terrain but Hit after PT = not affected by PT
-User left the field during the Hit, PT was set-up during the Hit = affected by PT
-User left the field during the Hit, PT was set-up during the whole sequence = affected by PT
Calm Mind:
-User still on the field during the Hit at +1 = affected by the boost
-User still on the field during the Hit, FS clicked at +1 but was at +2 during the Hit = affected by the current boost
-User left the field during the Hit = not affected by the boost
Specs:
-User still on the field during the Hit = affected by Specs
-User left the field during the Hit = not affected by Specs
-User left the fiend and return on it during the Hit = affected by Specs
The general rule with FS is that the only thing that matters is the current state of the field during the turn FS hits.
And it's a correct assumption that doom desire operates exactly the same as future sight? What about boosting items like metal coat?
I might setup a friendly and get to the bottom of this
Yh, Doom Desire has the same logic. On boosting items, it's the same case as Choice Specs: Doom Desire is affected by them if only the User is on the field during the hit.
Side Note: obviously, FS/Doom are only affected by the Pokemon clicking those moves. Let's say I click FS with Pokemon A (holding Choice Specs), and I switch to Pokemon B (which also holds Choice Specs) during the Hit, then FS will not be affected by the boost from Choice Specs (since B is not the one that clicked FS).
Side Note 2: if the user is not on the field during the hit, FS will calculate the damage according to the ev/iv spreads, nature and spA stats of the user.
Side note 3: Life Orb interact with FS/Doom in that way: u dont lose the 10% of HP when u click the move. However, if the User is on the field during the Hit, then u will lose 10% of HP but the 30% boost is applied as well (therefore, like with other boosting items, nothing happen if the User is not on the field during the Hit).
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Just for reference can you Doom Desire turn 1, then Future Sight turn 2 or does it fail?