So i'm not sure if people know this but Ubers is pretty different from OU too
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Tournament NDWC V - Format Discussion
- Thread starter sealoo
- Start date
- Status
I feel like quality should be emphasized here over representation since this is a CA tour now and I would like to see the most competitive environment for natdex tiers instead of giving tiers additional chances for metagame development. I'm more a fan of replacing a slot(s) than adding new ones for quality purposes, so prospective tiers should fulfill all of the following:
Tiers that can "realistically" be added are Ubers and maybe UU. Realistically means that it is possible to add one or both without being a detriment to most regions and the tour quality wise. I'm not gonna say anything about NDRU because I think its weird to have it and not UU on top of it and I don't want this format to be an NDPL clone +/- one slot. Think back to NDPL IV when UU and RU came out, not a lot of the tour mains had prior experience to the metagame and there were some truly wacky shenanigans ensuing regarding how teams were made (Tnunes flat-out loading an SS RU team for example). Ubers and UU have had about like 5 tours + whatever goes on in lower tier circuits to figure out their stuff and develop a "good enough" playerbase to field a lot of the regions I think.
Notable players/builders from each region:
Again its good "enough" to where most teams aren't going to be left out to dry (esp UK and US west, they seem to be choking on support) cc: bumboclaat Bobsican to correct my Ubers pool here cuz I'm less informed than you guys.
A notable thing to understand with my justification is that unlike people like Danbear and Deadbydaylight, I actually don't give a shit if a clicker like Skimmy or Devin is propped up by a lower tier builder instead of the builder themselves playing. Not going to give examples of builders who are worse than the clickers but its fairly easy to check out some of the tours and get an idea of how it can go wrong quick. If the builder is equal to or better than a clicker in skill then thats a bonus not a requirement. Knowing how to build isn't a free pass into a starter slot though.
Regarding the tiers itself and not the ability to find players:
I don't like ubers in this tour mainly because I don't think it's more competitive metagame compared to another OU or just UU. The complaints about the state of the tier are FAR more notable than those and although they are largely coming from more outsider groups its not something that should just be brushed off since they are ultimately going to be the guys starting and managing the tour. Do the survey yes but any action in Ubers surely makes the game state more unstable in the power vacuum for the duration of a tour (re: Zygarde-C action). Or you do nothing and just tell the players to git gud, which I i think is valid but this route also requires patience to optimize the metagame into an "enjoyable" state and again I would rather just have a tier with the least amount of complaints.
For UU the quality there is good in my eyes compared to OU but I do have major concerns with tier stability in April as a potential Ting-Lu rise to OU can turn it from enjoyable to train wreck if we're not careful. All in all it's somewhat of a gamble and will end up testing the building pool's skill to an extreme level if Ting-Lu leaves but I think it can be worth dropping an SV OU for it since the pool seems adaptable enough to me.
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SS NDOU
SS NDOU
SV NDDOU
SV NDMONO
SV NDUU / SV NDOU
- More balanced / enjoyable than the slot it's replacing
- Possible to add without a detriment to most teams
- Subcondition: Nerfs US East only #banisza
Tiers that can "realistically" be added are Ubers and maybe UU. Realistically means that it is possible to add one or both without being a detriment to most regions and the tour quality wise. I'm not gonna say anything about NDRU because I think its weird to have it and not UU on top of it and I don't want this format to be an NDPL clone +/- one slot. Think back to NDPL IV when UU and RU came out, not a lot of the tour mains had prior experience to the metagame and there were some truly wacky shenanigans ensuing regarding how teams were made (Tnunes flat-out loading an SS RU team for example). Ubers and UU have had about like 5 tours + whatever goes on in lower tier circuits to figure out their stuff and develop a "good enough" playerbase to field a lot of the regions I think.
Notable players/builders from each region:
| Regions | Ubers | UU |
| Asia + Oceania | idk | Velcroc |
| Europe | Entrocefalo, unfuuny, Fogbound Lake | Micaiah |
| UK | LORD SAGIS, Sami, Jumpheart, Zpice | TBIC106, Daepiquejt, Niadev, Baddy |
| France | Eledyr, Squeeby | dunoks, Micciu |
| Spain + Latin America | idk | idk |
| Brazil | Senhorlo | SapoDaG30 |
| India | skimmythegod, Flames Of Elixir | Saurav the great, Dabman1069 |
| China | MirrorSaMa, emoxu9, zuzhouwawa | idk |
| Canada | bumboclaat | Elfuseon, LBN, Marss Barss, Iride |
| USA South | Me and Kate i guess | Runo, awyp?, sealoo |
| USA Northeast | idk | HoodedZack |
| USA Midwest + USA West | Zrp200, Bobsican, Anchor9 | Danbear02, R1C3M4N, Rafadude, Mollymiltoast |
Again its good "enough" to where most teams aren't going to be left out to dry (esp UK and US west, they seem to be choking on support) cc: bumboclaat Bobsican to correct my Ubers pool here cuz I'm less informed than you guys.
A notable thing to understand with my justification is that unlike people like Danbear and Deadbydaylight, I actually don't give a shit if a clicker like Skimmy or Devin is propped up by a lower tier builder instead of the builder themselves playing. Not going to give examples of builders who are worse than the clickers but its fairly easy to check out some of the tours and get an idea of how it can go wrong quick. If the builder is equal to or better than a clicker in skill then thats a bonus not a requirement. Knowing how to build isn't a free pass into a starter slot though.
Regarding the tiers itself and not the ability to find players:
I don't like ubers in this tour mainly because I don't think it's more competitive metagame compared to another OU or just UU. The complaints about the state of the tier are FAR more notable than those and although they are largely coming from more outsider groups its not something that should just be brushed off since they are ultimately going to be the guys starting and managing the tour. Do the survey yes but any action in Ubers surely makes the game state more unstable in the power vacuum for the duration of a tour (re: Zygarde-C action). Or you do nothing and just tell the players to git gud, which I i think is valid but this route also requires patience to optimize the metagame into an "enjoyable" state and again I would rather just have a tier with the least amount of complaints.
For UU the quality there is good in my eyes compared to OU but I do have major concerns with tier stability in April as a potential Ting-Lu rise to OU can turn it from enjoyable to train wreck if we're not careful. All in all it's somewhat of a gamble and will end up testing the building pool's skill to an extreme level if Ting-Lu leaves but I think it can be worth dropping an SV OU for it since the pool seems adaptable enough to me.
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SS NDOU
SS NDOU
SV NDDOU
SV NDMONO
SV NDUU / SV NDOU
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well actually idk if you know this but ubers is still a Singles format. i know how difficult it is for you to grasp this.. idea.
This still doesn't make sense tho since you're asking for uniformity but still have Doubles as the odd man out in both Tera and format
W nduu motion, but i think having uu and no ru is troll, i said it.
well u see it’s because doubles holds a different standard than singles. that’s why
Looking through NDWC 23/24 rosters for those that have had previous involvment in the tier... I don't know any of these players well if at all. Ubers is also not a difficult tier to pick up nor build in so if some big name 'clicker' wants to play there is a pretty low barrier entry. Between these two lists my main concerns would be US South, US NE, and Brazil. With Brazil I'm confident that Senhorlo would be ample support at least.
| Team / Region | Unlisted Player(s) |
| Asia + Oceania | Exotic64, baconeatinassassin, mimikyu stardust, spacespeakers |
| Europe | Dahness |
| UK | None |
| France | None |
| Spain + LA | Dorron, Bobsican |
| Brazil | Seraphz |
| India | None |
| China | None |
| Canada | None |
| US South | PDT |
| US NE | None |
| US Midwest & West | FadedCharm, about15gals, sh0shin |
Re: RU/UU its a bit weird if RU is there and UU isn't, but if it can support a slot that is what matters imo.
Combining Runo's list with Bumboclaat's (thanks for compiling it BTW) this'd be the resulting pool for ND Ubers:
I'm a bit flattered of being mistaken as a US player, I've been practicing my English for years at this point, but in any case, overall the pool seems surprisingly balanced, basically nearly every region has at least 2 players, which isn't half bad. Additionally ND Ubers has been stabilizing lately to the point of the teambuilding barrier being quite minimal as most viable team structures have been standarized lately, especially with the recent trend of the GHAZ core.
ND Ubers also has a niche among the ND metagames of being one of the few ones with Tera, and while that may sound uncompetitive in paper, the truth is that such regional gimmick is healthy for the tier and adds even more diversity to it, with most of the best users of such mechanic being defensive ones unlike most other tiers.
| Regions | Ubers |
| Asia + Oceania | Exotic64, baconeatinassassin, mimikyu stardust, spacespeakers |
| Europe | Entrocefalo, unfuuny, Fogbound Lake, Dahness |
| UK | LORD SAGIS, Sami, Jumpheart, Zpice |
| France | Eledyr, Squeeby |
| Spain + Latin America | Dorron, Bobsican |
| Brazil | Senhorlo, Seraphz |
| India | skimmythegod, Flames Of Elixir |
| China | MirrorSaMa, emoxu9, zuzhouwawa |
| Canada | bumboclaat |
| USA South | Runo, Kate (presumably, going by Runo), PDT |
| USA Northeast | None |
| USA Midwest + USA West | Zrp200, Anchor9, FadedCharm, about15gals, sh0shin |
I'm a bit flattered of being mistaken as a US player, I've been practicing my English for years at this point, but in any case, overall the pool seems surprisingly balanced, basically nearly every region has at least 2 players, which isn't half bad. Additionally ND Ubers has been stabilizing lately to the point of the teambuilding barrier being quite minimal as most viable team structures have been standarized lately, especially with the recent trend of the GHAZ core.
ND Ubers also has a niche among the ND metagames of being one of the few ones with Tera, and while that may sound uncompetitive in paper, the truth is that such regional gimmick is healthy for the tier and adds even more diversity to it, with most of the best users of such mechanic being defensive ones unlike most other tiers.
Add a second doubles slot :D
Would be in favor of something like this
SV NDOU x 3
SS NDOU x 2
ND DOU x 2
SV NDMono
Having 4 SV NDOU slots seems a bit overkill, bringing in another doubles slot seems intuitive. The natdex doubles playerbase has grown a lot over the past year, and I think that the current player pool could easily support a second slot which is evident from the pool in the currently ongoing doubles derby.
Would be in favor of something like this
SV NDOU x 3
SS NDOU x 2
ND DOU x 2
SV NDMono
Having 4 SV NDOU slots seems a bit overkill, bringing in another doubles slot seems intuitive. The natdex doubles playerbase has grown a lot over the past year, and I think that the current player pool could easily support a second slot which is evident from the pool in the currently ongoing doubles derby.
I'm in support of 10 slots. This has become a Custom Avatar Tour from this year so having more players is also more hype. Leaving that aside, I agree with DBD and Danbear that this tour shouldn't just be Clickers with undrafted support which is why I'm in support of adding lower tiers and just that some players who deserve recognition should also participate. This is the format I support:
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SS NDOU
SS NDOU
SV NDDOU
SV NDMono
SV NDUU
SV NDRU
SV NDUbers
Yes, there's 3 SV NDOU slots and an Ubers slot. Yes Ubers has tera but it is an important part of the tier and doesn't harm it in any way like it did to OU and maintains a healthy presence. Additionally, Tera hold the whole metagame together (Zygarde, Zacian, Eternatus, Unecro etc.). On top of this, 3 SV NDOU slots makes more sense to me since a large part of the community doesn't like the current metagame especially after the Dragapult Ban. Furthermore Dragapult bound the meta around it and since it got banned recently, the metagame is going through a lot of changes right before the Tour (kinda ig?).
Regarding the few arguments above saying "Only include all lower tiers bar Ubers", if you say this in respect of the playerbase, well the whole pool is given by Runo, Bumbo and Bob (Thanks you) and is not that small. Also it's just that including all lower tiers other than Ubers is just weird tbh.
Well I'm nobody reputable to say all this so yeah if I said something stupid it's probably cuz I'm biased against like 5x SV OUs.
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SV NDOU
SS NDOU
SS NDOU
SV NDDOU
SV NDMono
SV NDUU
SV NDRU
SV NDUbers
Yes, there's 3 SV NDOU slots and an Ubers slot. Yes Ubers has tera but it is an important part of the tier and doesn't harm it in any way like it did to OU and maintains a healthy presence. Additionally, Tera hold the whole metagame together (Zygarde, Zacian, Eternatus, Unecro etc.). On top of this, 3 SV NDOU slots makes more sense to me since a large part of the community doesn't like the current metagame especially after the Dragapult Ban. Furthermore Dragapult bound the meta around it and since it got banned recently, the metagame is going through a lot of changes right before the Tour (kinda ig?).
Regarding the few arguments above saying "Only include all lower tiers bar Ubers", if you say this in respect of the playerbase, well the whole pool is given by Runo, Bumbo and Bob (Thanks you) and is not that small. Also it's just that including all lower tiers other than Ubers is just weird tbh.
Well I'm nobody reputable to say all this so yeah if I said something stupid it's probably cuz I'm biased against like 5x SV OUs.
please keep format the same unless you guys have a secret stash of lower tier/ubers players to share with the class
With the expectation that a CA prize will drive greater engagement and result in an increased number of signups I’m cool with increasing the total number of slots.
Don’t really care if it’s more OU or the inclusion of a tier that wasn’t on last year’s format.
But again it really depends on the number of signups and if it makes sense by region.
Out of personal interest I’d like to increase the number of slots to an odd number because I hate tiebreaks and having an even number of slots creates that possibility. Don’t care how other tours do it but it just makes tours unnecessarily longer.
Don’t really care if it’s more OU or the inclusion of a tier that wasn’t on last year’s format.
But again it really depends on the number of signups and if it makes sense by region.
Out of personal interest I’d like to increase the number of slots to an odd number because I hate tiebreaks and having an even number of slots creates that possibility. Don’t care how other tours do it but it just makes tours unnecessarily longer.
This is something I heavily agree with, I've always disliked how at the end of a lot of weeks you're playing for win/tie vs lose/tie. I know even slots seems to be something every tour has done on smogon and is kinda a standardized thing at this point but there's some huge benefits to odd numbers of slots such as no tiebreaks in playoffs and making those very last games all the more meaningful. A lot of people defend tiebreaks as being some higher quality / higher spectator value games but having those games as a normal part of the week makes the hype a lot better for viewers and players alike. I also think 9 slots would be a reasonable compromise between 8 and 10 where it negates the worst aspects of both formats, being the potential lack of players to fill out the slots in smaller teams for a 10 slot format vs wanting to increase player counts and get more new people involved in team tours for the 8 slot format.
TL:DR id put my vouch on a 9 slot format if we could find some way that it works but I wouldn't doubt if big Smogon had some obscure policy that tours need even slots because tours need even slots or something similar along those lines. If 8 is too few and 10 is too many the goated 9 slot NDWC format is the true meaning of life.
Yeah no, odd slot team tours are awful and shouldn't be a thing. Ties add meaningful variety to qualification for playoffs and decrease the effect of luck. 9 games is not a lot and getting fucked cuz u got haxed is now a 2 point swing instead of 1. There were odd slots in NDPL 1 and it was lame, tiebreaks r fine and I'd much rather have them then be eliminated 4-5 because I got crit. Keep slots even
As a low tier enthusiast, I think adding Bo3 or UU here would help the communities grow. UU certainly has enough of an established meta to be alright. I like RU, but I don’t play it enough to make a concrete statement on the meta. I do think that the vastness of mons in that tier would make it a little frustrating to build with initially to those who haven’t already been playing. I liked NDBD’s 10 slot system, so I’d be down for adding Bo3 and UU, rather than replacing any existing slots. Plus it would nerf US North East they lack builders, Runo was off a tiny bit, I’m in US South 
odd slots is a meme, i echo what kate said. even slots makes games a lot more "meaningful" if youre fighting for a tie rather than losing all of your teams morale in an odd slot tour and just throw/tilt bc u realize winning the week takes way too much effort in an rng game
bo3 is too much headache for what its worth, especially in a wc tour where your players are limited/finite. low tiers+ubers are whatever i dont have a strong opinion bc us west/midwest has capable players and builders for those so im biased. the thing about including them though is that some people arent realizing that "clickers" aren't going to build for themselves so now ur stuck with managers who probably dont know these tiers having to support 10 slots or whatever all while picking up potentially multiple new tiers. dont do a second doubles slot (sorry), 90% of people involved are singles players and having one doubles slot is already hard bc its usually just two doubles mains working together while the rest of the team is useless in that slot. all ou + 1 dou + mono is fine
this is a totally left field topic and ill probably get hated on for it but i disagree with wc (an unbalanced tour) having a custom, wouldve rather seen it in bd and the tour wouldve become more competitive but thats a topic for another time i just didnt know how else to bring it up
bo3 is too much headache for what its worth, especially in a wc tour where your players are limited/finite. low tiers+ubers are whatever i dont have a strong opinion bc us west/midwest has capable players and builders for those so im biased. the thing about including them though is that some people arent realizing that "clickers" aren't going to build for themselves so now ur stuck with managers who probably dont know these tiers having to support 10 slots or whatever all while picking up potentially multiple new tiers. dont do a second doubles slot (sorry), 90% of people involved are singles players and having one doubles slot is already hard bc its usually just two doubles mains working together while the rest of the team is useless in that slot. all ou + 1 dou + mono is fine
this is a totally left field topic and ill probably get hated on for it but i disagree with wc (an unbalanced tour) having a custom, wouldve rather seen it in bd and the tour wouldve become more competitive but thats a topic for another time i just didnt know how else to bring it up
Thank you to everyone who participated in the discussion!
After careful consideration, we have decided to go with 8 slots. Despite a few voices raised in favor of 10 slots, we have not seen enough support towards a 10 slots format and we believe keeping an 8 slots format will result in a more competitive setting overall.
This year's format will then be :
After careful consideration, we have decided to go with 8 slots. Despite a few voices raised in favor of 10 slots, we have not seen enough support towards a 10 slots format and we believe keeping an 8 slots format will result in a more competitive setting overall.
This year's format will then be :
- SV National Dex OU
- SV National Dex OU
- SV National Dex OU
- SV National Dex OU
- SS National Dex OU
- SS National Dex OU
- National Dex DOU
- National Dex Monotype
- Status