np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 17 - Dancing in the Moonlight

[Achohermano]

we went from flutter mane and palafin to baxcalibur to archaludon rain to palafin again but in the zama/pecha/lu balance meta offense is the best they've ever been? Idk man this seems like stereotyping SV as an offense meta.

I think that I've seen the Araquanid custap berry + Moth Tusk Gold Bolt team on the ladder than any other team this last two months, and most of the mid ladder where I've been testing (1600 - 1800s) is either BO or straight up HO.

Araq Webs is on an all time high, Ribombee Web is still good, Glimmora teams are still good, Veil is a good ladder cheese and even Sun has been rising recently. Of course Offense is not at "its best", I mean I was the first one cheesing on early gen with Esparthra + Shed tail on the 1900s XDDD but saying that it's not a really strong playstyle atm would be an straight up lie, Rainebow.

Balance and Stall teams struggle a lot aganist a lot of powerful offensive mons that can easily overlap each other to break cores (Roaring Moon is in fact one of the main perpetrators).

I'm a bit rusty and I don't know if I will have the time and skill to get the reqs this time, but while I'm not Moon's biggest hater, the tier could be better without it. I won't talk about the mons I'd axe first, since this is not the place to do it, but Moon by itself is a bit difficult to face a lot of the times due how volatile its sets are.

 

[Madam Monette]

Please ban for the love of God. Not even two months after another format suspect tested Roaring Moon, and we're already doing another suspect test on this stupid thing. I'm voting BAN on this menace mainly because it has the stats I'd expect from an ubers worthy Pokémon, and it's also a great Tera abuser. With 119 speed, 139 attack, and Protosynthesis, it was already pretty questionable on launch in my opinion, but gaining knock off made it ridiculous. And as if any of that wasn't bad enough, it's actually surprisingly fat and is no glass cannon. It has 71 defense, 101 special defense, and 105 HP. So if this thing teras into a defensive type, it's lights out.
Long story short: I'm voting ban for the reasons you guys stated before, alongside the fact it's fast, powerful, and bulky.

 

[Cape Canaveral]

I think Roaring Moon is single handedly keeping most physical offense archetypes viable; its Knock Off is always going to be an amazing progress-making tool even if it doesn't win outright. I think in that way it offers much more to the metagame than it detracts. I don't think that it is superior than Kyurem or Dnite or anything else in terms of outright winning ability, and they all have the same weaknesses to status, speed control, the same bulk profiles check most of them, and so on. When I achieve reqs I will vote DNB.

 

[tommytt22]

Any chance i can vote off ladder alone? I've never been consistent enough to get GXE of 80% but i can get to 1800 through brute force no worries and i want that thing BANNED ive always considered this thing too much and lately its even more problematic than usual

 

[Mono_Kommo-o]

I am pleased that I got reqs for the first time!

I believe that Moon's great typing and set of support and offensive moves combined with booster energy (attack is more scary) and knock off utility pushes my opinion toward BAN. Booster energy also makes knock off ineffective against RM unlike loaded dice sweepers such as kyurem who won't risk swapping in as often. In high level play, RM becomes less easy to predict because people are less likely to use a well known team or structure without making minor adjustments somewhere. Besides sticky barb clef there isn't really any solid counter to a stab boosted knock-off coming from a mon like moon besides swapping into a resist and losing an item + taking chip which sucks because you shouldn't be getting punished like this despite outplaying the opponent.

I will not miss RM: BAN

 

[2 Genders]

during my suspect run, roughly 70% of teams i encountered on ladder where some kind of offense. Not saying that's an issue or anything, just telling you what i see.

When has offense ever not seen the majority of play? It's the most fun to play and most accessible, regardless of its viability.

 

[CodeFour]

Is tera fairy blast moon like breaking swipe GP where just putting body press on dozo made that hyped set less impressive? Are there small changes that make this tb moon less effective that someone with clout that isn't banned wants to mention any time soon?

 

[lucky333]

Is tera fairy blast moon like breaking swipe GP where just putting body press on dozo made that hyped set less impressive? Are there small changes that make this tb moon less effective that someone with clout that isn't banned wants to mention any time soon?

There are some but not many. Unaware(instead of MG) Clef works as a general answer and there is some other stuff like balloon Gambit in case you wanna cover EQ fairy sets. You can also try to adjust your tera type to tera steel Tusk for example but that makes you vulnerable to a bunch of other things like EQ, something Tusk really dislikes.

There is no adjustment for example for Lando(who previously forced Tera with U-turn and could do significant chip damage thanks to rocky helmet even when knocked and intimidate slowing it down). Now Tera Blast makes it non contact and the added bulk now means Roaring Moon can setup on defensive Lando multiple times so even switching in and out isn't gonna help you and any chip damage is undone by roost and the added bulk. You can try running rock tomb to slow it down but again, its so bulky it can just setup again multiple times. You can run max attack Lando to do more damage but that means Lando will die a lot easier to setup attack boosting roaring moon. Same thing with Tusk.

Corvi and Dozo also cannot do any good adjustment to beat taunt fairy Roaring Moon for example. Lu will have to Tera to survive a +1 fairy blast AND hope that they are not taunt if you plan to whirlwind. Taunt fairy also shuts down an iron pressing Zama( you CAN run mental herb....but is it really worth it?) as even a heavy slam from it is just a 4 HKO and the lack of crunch can easily be taken adavantage of by teammates. In fact, just about any defensive answer will have to hope it's not taunt otherwise the only good way to beat is to out offense it or hope you have the right Tera.

The 4mss does not help, I have said it before but thanks to Moons strong initaial power ON top of it's game ending potential means that it is always on the opponent to make the right call, not moon. I think we can all agree that all the different sets DO NOT have overlapping counterplay which is a huge problem for something so strong that can end games on the wrong turn. And that is not even counting just the moveset and right tera type but it's nature as well. We have seen in the SZ vs Pais MU that Encore users have to be wary whetever it is fast moon or bulky moon.

Moon just makes the MU fishing worse thanks to that. Sure there are counters for the sets but they are becoming more and more specialized instead of a general counters like chip damage, encore, priority or status which Moon can all negate with the right set and by the time you found out you should have taken a different route, it might be too late. For something with such great set variety, it just underlines the MU fishing aspect of the meta more.

Also generally speaking, we should stop viewing Moons set in a vacuum but instead should view all it's set as an accumulation of it's strengths. We did the same mistake with Gouging Fire where we only viewed BS set as something to be dealt with just because it was the current trend and everyone was using it. Once that trend fades and people learn how to be unpredictable with Moon's tera type and set variety this Mon will easily tear this meta apart.

1) You are using Scizor, balloon Tinkaton, Weezing or Corvi to deal with popular roost fairy set as it sets up? Boom, tera fire fire fang just revealed and now you get fucked.
2) Wanna go Unaware Clef? Tera Ground and tera flying 2HKO this mon.
3) Try to use status and or priority? Boom substitute revealed(especially bad under veil)
4) Wanna use Gambit cause the usual fairy sets don't have EQ? Well this one does.


In fact let me show you some matches:

1) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2325482114-w2qgtihxvm2nwh7c3a3pobabxe5kiu0pw
See how I brought in Moon? My Moon didn't have EQ actually and it would have been better to bring in Tusk but I could easily bluff that shit cause my Moon was behind a veil and the Gambit HAD to respect that. So he went Zapdos to status me which spoilers didn't end well for him.

2) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2325513008-c8ec0mupxjdht2uiri3qluu8gpjhefcpw
Here is a showcase how Taunt Moon just destroys fat teams if played properly. Sure got a little lucky with Pech but I feel like you should see how a better player then myself could just dismantle any fat team with the right Moon set. And even against offense it's not bad at all cause fairy/dark is the perfect neutral coverage and it's fat enough to setup on mons like Slowking, H-rott. Heck it can even setup on Wispless Darkrai since Ice Beam is only 2HKO and with tera the amount of mons it sets-up on increases even more.

3) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2202982529-zpkq42hydvo16zzsmredr9ztxcqvb6ipw
Once I forced the Dozo to sleep and removed Clef, it was game over as Glis tries to status me and I reveal sub.


Ask yourself these questions:

1) Are all it's sets easily discernible from team preview?
2) How many resources do you have to give up to make it reveal it's set AND deal with it?
3) Can you usually save the game even if you made a wrong call because of your lack of information of the Mon's set/tera type?
4) If it is a sweeper, how easily does it get a setup opportunity?

I would advise the DnB side to answer those questions instead of going the 4 moveslot syndrome arguement or Moon is just feasting on popular structures retort because both can very easily argued by the ban side. I would start with the rise of Unaware Clef. Something that is not just good for Moon but also for Dragonite and to a certain extent other physical setup mons like Zama. So this could easily be used as a general answer for tera fairy sets.

 

[Avira]

There are some but not many. Unaware(instead of MG) Clef works as a general answer and there is some other stuff like balloon Gambit in case you wanna cover EQ fairy sets. You can also try to adjust your tera type to tera steel Tusk for example but that makes you vulnerable to a bunch of other things like EQ, something Tusk really dislikes.

There is no adjustment for example for Lando(who previously forced Tera with U-turn and could do significant chip damage thanks to rocky helmet even when knocked and intimidate slowing it down). Now Tera Blast makes it non contact and the added bulk now means Roaring Moon can setup on defensive Lando multiple times so even switching in and out isn't gonna help you and any chip damage is undone by roost and the added bulk. You can try running rock tomb to slow it down but again, its so bulky it can just setup again multiple times. You can run max attack Lando to do more damage but that means Lando will die a lot easier to setup attack boosting roaring moon. Same thing with Tusk.

Corvi and Dozo also cannot do any good adjustment to beat taunt fairy Roaring Moon for example. Lu will have to Tera to survive a +1 fairy blast AND hope that they are not taunt if you plan to whirlwind. Taunt fairy also shuts down an iron pressing Zama( you CAN run mental herb....but is it really worth it?) as even a heavy slam from it is just a 4 HKO and the lack of crunch can easily be taken adavantage of by teammates. In fact, just about any defensive answer will have to hope it's not taunt otherwise the only good way to beat is to out offense it or hope you have the right Tera.

The 4mss does not help, I have said it before but thanks to Moons strong initaial power ON top of it's game ending potential means that it is always on the opponent to make the right call, not moon. I think we can all agree that all the different sets DO NOT have overlapping counterplay which is a huge problem for something so strong that can end games on the wrong turn. And that is not even counting just the moveset and right tera type but it's nature as well. We have seen in the SZ vs Pais MU that Encore users have to be wary whetever it is fast moon or bulky moon.

Moon just makes the MU fishing worse thanks to that. Sure there are counters for the sets but they are becoming more and more specialized instead of a general counters like chip damage, encore, priority or status which Moon can all negate with the right set and by the time you found out you should have taken a different route, it might be too late. For something with such great set variety, it just underlines the MU fishing aspect of the meta more.

Also generally speaking, we should stop viewing Moons set in a vacuum but instead should view all it's set as an accumulation of it's strengths. We did the same mistake with Gouging Fire where we only viewed BS set as something to be dealt with just because it was the current trend and everyone was using it. Once that trend fades and people learn how to be unpredictable with Moon's tera type and set variety this Mon will easily tear this meta apart.

1) You are using Scizor, balloon Tinkaton, Weezing or Corvi to deal with popular roost fairy set as it sets up? Boom, tera fire fire fang just revealed and now you get fucked.
2) Wanna go Unaware Clef? Tera Ground and tera flying 2HKO this mon.
3) Try to use status and or priority? Boom substitute revealed(especially bad under veil)
4) Wanna use Gambit cause the usual fairy sets don't have EQ? Well this one does.


In fact let me show you some matches:

1) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2325482114-w2qgtihxvm2nwh7c3a3pobabxe5kiu0pw
See how I brought in Moon? My Moon didn't have EQ actually and it would have been better to bring in Tusk but I could easily bluff that shit cause my Moon was behind a veil and the Gambit HAD to respect that. So he went Zapdos to status me which spoilers didn't end well for him.

2) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2325513008-c8ec0mupxjdht2uiri3qluu8gpjhefcpw
Here is a showcase how Taunt Moon just destroys fat teams if played properly. Sure got a little lucky with Pech but I feel like you should see how a better player then myself could just dismantle any fat team with the right Moon set. And even against offense it's not bad at all cause fairy/dark is the perfect neutral coverage and it's fat enough to setup on mons like Slowking, H-rott. Heck it can even setup on Wispless Darkrai since Ice Beam is only 2HKO and with tera the amount of mons it sets-up on increases even more.

3) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2202982529-zpkq42hydvo16zzsmredr9ztxcqvb6ipw
Once I forced the Dozo to sleep and removed Clef, it was game over as Glis tries to status me and I reveal sub.


Ask yourself these questions:

1) Are all it's sets easily discernible from team preview?
2) How many resources do you have to give up to make it reveal it's set AND deal with it?
3) Can you usually save the game even if you made a wrong call because of your lack of information of the Mon's set/tera type?
4) If it is a sweeper, how easily does it get a setup opportunity?

I would advise the DnB side to answer those questions instead of going the 4 moveslot syndrome arguement or Moon is just feasting on popular structures retort because both can very easily argued by the ban side. I would start with the rise of Unaware Clef. Something that is not just good for Moon but also for Dragonite and to a certain extent other physical setup mons like Zama. So this could easily be used as a general answer for tera fairy sets.

I believe this is hands down the best pro-ban Roaring Moon post anyone has made, and you should post it in the qualified thread once you've reached the reqs threshold. Roaring Moon puts undue strain in the teambuilder due to all of its highly viable sets (from the bulky set-up sets to the all out offensive ones), and the number of scenarios in which you have to burn too many resources to figure out its set isn't uncommon.

 

[ausma]

I believe this is hands down the best pro-ban Roaring Moon post anyone has made, and you should post it in the qualified thread once you've reached the reqs threshold. Roaring Moon puts undue strain in the teambuilder due to all of its highly viable sets (from the bulky set-up sets to the all out offensive ones), and the number of scenarios in which you have to burn too many resources to figure out its set isn't uncommon.

sniff I see how it is…

I would be actively curious to see some more DNB sentiment. From those in that camp: what makes it balanced to you?

 

[besudo]

Sure thing, ill give you a perspective of someone leaning dnb. An aspect of the pro ban sentiment that ive noticed is how a lot of examples of failed Roaring moon counterplay comes from situation where the opponent is trying to check moon from a defensive playstyle standpoint. Looking to counter moon in the traditional sense of the word. Where you have a mon that can switch in and beat moon regardless of what it's running or at least force it swap. But I think in moons case similar to a mon like Wellspring, trying to come at beating it from a defense position isn't the best way to go about it.

When you lean to heavily of walls to whether it's assault and slow it down, that's what leaves you susceptible to being put in the blender. Those "I needed twave/wisp cripple it but it had taunt" or "I need my iron defense bird to wall it but it baited me then tera ghost" type situations.

How ive handled roaringmoon for months now is that the second it's comes in, I acknowledge that I'm in a compromises position and force try and force the trade with the mon I'm currently using. Put the roaring moon in a position where they can only grab 1 dd at most cause I'm either gonna 1 shot them or do like 70. Then once they pick off that mon you swoop in and revenge then lmao with strong priority like scissors bullet punch. If I have no priority access I still force the trade but instead I bring in a mon that with tera if needed can live a plus 1 hit and get the kill. As long as you can do more then 50 percent to moon with the first mon to avoid it being Roost tanked, if they're even running it, then this strategy works reliability.

There is a point to be made that this strat depend on the types of teams you run and how many passive pokemon you have on it, and what they could do if they had to emergency duel moon. However, considering how offensive favor most teams on ladder screw , it's not too hard to implement this force the trade strategy.
It could be said that this is another one of those many little things this gen that ultimately punishes fat more then offense. And I know people grown once they eventually realise that BO is the best archetype given these factors. But I can't reasonably single moon out as if it's the only mon that forces you to handle it this way , ive gotten used to this being how this gen works.

So that probably why I'll vote dnb If I get the chance and see how the conversation goes from there.

 

[tommytt22]

Sure thing, ill give you a perspective of someone leaning dnb. An aspect of the pro ban sentiment that ive noticed is how a lot of examples of failed Roaring moon counterplay comes from situation where the opponent is trying to check moon from a defensive playstyle standpoint. Looking to counter moon in the traditional sense of the word. Where you have a mon that can switch in and beat moon regardless of what it's running or at least force it swap. But I think in moons case similar to a mon like Wellspring, trying to come at beating it from a defense position isn't the best way to go about it.

When you lean to heavily of walls to whether it's assault and slow it down, that's what leaves you susceptible to being put in the blender. Those "I needed twave/wisp cripple it but it had taunt" or "I need my iron defense bird to wall it but it baited me then tera ghost" type situations.

How ive handled roaringmoon for months now is that the second it's comes in, I acknowledge that I'm in a compromises position and force try and force the trade with the mon I'm currently using. Put the roaring moon in a position where they can only grab 1 dd at most cause I'm either gonna 1 shot them or do like 70. Then once they pick off that mon you swoop in and revenge then lmao with strong priority like scissors bullet punch. If I have no priority access I still force the trade but instead I bring in a mon that with tera if needed can live a plus 1 hit and get the kill. As long as you can do more then 50 percent to moon with the first mon to avoid it being Roost tanked, if they're even running it, then this strategy works reliability.

There is a point to be made that this strat depend on the types of teams you run and how many passive pokemon you have on it, and what they could do if they had to emergency duel moon. However, considering how offensive favor most teams on ladder screw , it's not too hard to implement this force the trade strategy.
It could be said that this is another one of those many little things this gen that ultimately punishes fat more then offense. And I know people grown once they eventually realise that BO is the best archetype given these factors. But I can't reasonably single moon out as if it's the only mon that forces you to handle it this way , ive gotten used to this being how this gen works.

So that probably why I'll vote dnb If I get the chance and see how the conversation goes from there.

I don't expect every playstyle to be viable every generation, but your argument against banning is that all Pokemon on your team are capable of +70% damage on it? Because it's the opponents choice when to bring it in. Or are you saying if the opponent has a roaring moon you restrict getting Ko's to only certain pokemon on your team, so that it can't come in for free. That's not unusual but what if your pokemon that can do 70+ to moon can't switch into what's already on the field? Because then you have to bum around and halt your own progress. Basically the roaring moon In the back is completely stunting your gameplay

 

[Pudistours]

As I managed to get the reqs, I will vote against the ban of Roaring Moon. From a competitive point of view, I believe there are reasonable arguments on both sides. For my part, I definitely don't have the impression that Roaring Moon is as untameable as some people say, but that's just my feeling. My vote is basically based on two broader points:

1. At this stage of the generation, I would prefer to see a deban policy rather than the opposite. I have the feeling that some Uber Pokémon could return in OU without disrupting the meta. I think that's what we should be testing.
2. Assuming that some Pokémon no longer have a place in OU, I think there should be other priorities at the moment, and that we certainly shouldn't be going after a Pokémon that favours Hyper Offense in a meta that can sometimes take an unpleasant direction.

In any case, let's see what the vote brings and I'm sure that voters will do their best to make the right choice.

 

[ign27]

How ive handled roaringmoon for months now is that the second it's comes in, I acknowledge that I'm in a compromises position and force try and force the trade with the mon I'm currently using. Put the roaring moon in a position where they can only grab 1 dd at most cause I'm either gonna 1 shot them or do like 70. Then once they pick off that mon you swoop in and revenge then lmao with strong priority like scissors bullet punch. If I have no priority access I still force the trade but instead I bring in a mon that with tera if needed can live a plus 1 hit and get the kill. As long as you can do more then 50 percent to moon with the first mon to avoid it being Roost tanked, if they're even running it, then this strategy works reliability.

I think this is a great example of why Moon is a problem. You are saying that to deal with a DD Moon at +1 I need to burn Tera and sack a mon. Or have saved a strong priority after a sack that hopefully chipped it enough and Moon doesn't roost. I agree that as a player you need to bring these tools in Gen 9 OU to be effective, but your explanation ends up reading like a pro Ban statement to me than a DNB

 

[besudo]

My argument wasn't so much focus around justify why moon is balenced in its own right. The main point was more so demonstrate how perceptions of the roaring moon match up and how healthy it is for the meta can vary alot depending the playstyles and team achetypes you favor.

I try to keep in my my own biases in when it comes to this topic . Cause I'm aware that I haven't really felt the the impact of any of roaring moon's new adaptation, because my teams tend to scew towards proactive offense, thus they're aren't many targets that a utility moon could take advantage of. If you were the type of player already leaning on offensive counterplay then your gameplan for beating it doesnt really change much regardless of what set moons running.
A majority of the teams this this gen are packing a decent amount of offensive fire power so this is gameplan for handling moon that can become done by a lot of teams.

Ok, so with that being said I know that this directly implies that some team archetypes ought to be run over others. I also know that bans are best used to help facilitate meta diversity and allow a wide range of archetypes be viable. I would be more down to sacrifice Moon for the sake of other playstyles like fat balence, If moon were actually the only prominent mon that pressured you to rely on offensive counterplay to handle it.But thats the thing, its not.

Everything I described in the previous post about how I handle roaring moon applies to Kyrum as well. Chances are I'm not running a bronzong or a perfectly ev unaware clef. When Kyrum enters the field I don't know what set it is and even if I did I couldn't take hits from it anyways. So I focus on trying to create a favorable trade against Kyrum. Same thing to a smidgen of a less extent applies to mons Like Wellspring and Dragonite, where in if you don't know what they're running, you should just assume they're unwallable and worry more about how you'll set yourself up to take them out offensively before they get off too much damage on your team or snowball out of control. Finally if mons like ting lu weren't glued on to like every team, tons of other threats like raging bolt and nasty plot darkrai would be added to the list of mons you have to trade against.


The unfortunate truth is that passive fat heavy teams that aren't full on stall are in a very very rough spot rn. So I can't bring myself to single out moon for this cause I know this a problem much larger than it. Like yeah we could keep removing the most problematic offense threats in hopes that the ankor holding fat back finally gets lifted. But there's also a perspective to this that at some point we might have to accept this is a gen that favor proactive offense and that probably just the identity of this gen. So we should only reserve bans for the most egregious outliers, which I don't believe moon reaches that bar.

 

[Cape Canaveral]

The unfortunate truth is that passive fat heavy teams that aren't full on stall are in a very very rough spot rn. So I can't bring myself to single out moon for this cause I know this a problem much larger than it. Like yeah we could keep removing the most problematic offense threats in hopes that the ankor holding fat back finally gets lifted. But there's also a perspective to this that at some point we might have to accept this is a gen that favor proactive offense and that probably just the identity of this gen. So we should only reserve bans for the most egregious outliers, which I don't believe moon reaches that bar.

We don't need passive fat heavy teams to be good. That's not good teambuilding and frankly I don't think it should be rewarded. Stall is also not passive; all stall is kitted with a ton of defensive disruption to make breaking it difficult.

 

[apoteosis]

Managed to make the reqs a little while ago. Here is my team in case you need one (standard BO dnite ghold zama lu).

I'll be voting DNB, and here's why:

1.- RM is a tera hog. In order to work properly you need to use tera, so you can take advantage of that (assume tera fairy, the most common tera nowadays). As a consequence of it, one of your slots will be tera blast (fairy, ghost), or acrobatics (flying), the second DD, the third Knock Off and the fourth could be anything, granted (taunt, roost, EQ, iron head, most of the time it's EQ tho). The fourth move will depend on team compo, but that's a staple of gen 9: the matchup fishing.

2.- RM has 4MSS. It can't counter everything at once, and even still, it can't break past corvi or clef (unless you use a tech tera like tera ghost or tera steel, which is legit, btw). Even the bulky ghosts (pecha and sinistcha) are good checks even without tera.

3.- RM has horrendous def, even if invested. Bulkier sets had to use several DD to get to the breaking point, so you swicth to your priority user, which almost always have some kind of boosting move (dnite has SD + EE; scizor either it's banded or SD + BP; kingambit lol; weavile also has SD on boots sets), which makes things even, or you can always get Val on the switch and you will be faster anyways since bulkier RM have low speed, even after 1 DD; ofc in that case your opponent will tera, which is such an obvious move that even Mr. Magoo can see it a mile away, act accordingly.

4.- RM is super cyclical: it went from being broken, to being UUBL, to being broken again. We just need the meta to settle a bit before banning it imo. Although I can concede that RM hits very hard (one game an adamant RM +1 +booster atk tera blast one-hit my dragonite from full), IMO it's just a kill or die mon, which is indeed somewhat predictable.

We're just freaking out because of a trend on the new sets, but I'm sure that once the meta settles, it will return to normal. Not like Gliscor, which still uses the same annoying set, like forever, plus SD sets, which are more dangerous than roaring mid, and still got no banhammer.

 

[Moyashi]

RM is a tera hog. In order to work properly you need to use tera, so you can take advantage of that (assume tera fairy, the most common tera nowadays). As a consequence of it, one of your slots will be tera blast (fairy, ghost), or acrobatics (flying), the second DD, the third Knock Off and the fourth could be anything, granted (taunt, roost, EQ, iron head, most of the time it's EQ tho). The fourth move will depend on team compo, but that's a staple of gen 9: the matchup fishing.

You cannot know what Tera moon is at preview, not reliably, and calling match up fishing a staple of gen9 “a staple” is either true nor is it something you should accept. If match up fishing was a prominent element of a tier, that would only be a bigger warning sign of a problem.

Moon’s Tera usage is also a boon to it, not a detriment, because it’s using its selection to hand pick what it wants to beat and you’re at the mercy of what Tera it chooses because as has been said many times, there is not much overlap of counter play between those Tera variants.

I

2.- RM has 4MSS. It can't counter everything at once, and even still, it can't break past corvi or clef (unless you use a tech tera like tera ghost or tera steel, which is legit, btw). Even the bulky ghosts (pecha and sinistcha) are good checks even without tera.

Outside of Knock and DD which are the only true requirements, anything else is chosen to beat what it wants. As I said, the lack of overlapping counter play to its sets is very limiting in the builder and when you cannot know what set it is at preview, it’s dangerous as free turns given to something like Moon is far more punishing. Also Corv is one thing since it’s legit a terrific mon, but Clef loses to Tera Ground Roaring Moon (and while Unaware sets are not truly bad, they’re far less splashable and more restricted to build around due to the new wesknesses that it has that clef normally doesn’t have to deal with)

RM has horrendous def, even if invested. Bulkier sets had to use several DD to get to the breaking point, so you swicth to your priority user, which almost always have some kind of boosting move (dnite has SD + EE; scizor either it's banded or SD + BP; kingambit lol; weavile also has SD on boots sets), which makes things even, or you can always get Val on the switch and you will be faster anyways since bulkier RM have low speed, even after 1 DD; ofc in that case your opponent will tera, which is such an obvious move that even Mr. Magoo can see it a mile away, act accordingly.

I’d recommend you actually watch replays of Bulky Moon as they demonstrate how it has no issue turning would be checks and soft checks into set up fodder (see examples like Great Tusk) but also you are not just switching in your priority user info Roaring Moon when it’s healthy and trying to boost alongside it. Especially as you do not know its Tera type and are risking death. You’re literally trying to argue that you’ll just perfectly predict and know what you’re opponent will do, which is neither realistic nor reliable.

4.- RM is super cyclical: it went from being broken, to being UUBL, to being broken again. We just need the meta to settle a bit before banning it imo. Although I can concede that RM hits very hard (one game an adamant RM +1 +booster atk tera blast one-hit my dragonite from full), IMO it's just a kill or die mon, which is indeed somewhat predictable.

We're just freaking out because of a trend on the new sets, but I'm sure that once the meta settles, it will return to normal. Not like Gliscor, which still uses the same annoying set, like forever, plus SD sets, which are more dangerous than roaring mid, and still got no banhammer.

this isn’t remotely compelling as all you’re doing is making baseless claims that this is just some cycle and the meta will adapt. Outside of the use of Clefable (unaware specifically because otherwise Moon can just boost and beat it) and Corv, what else is there for the Meta to use to adapt? Throwing Tera as a response to try and panic button vs it is not a good argument either. You could argue many previously banned pokes the meta could’ve waited to “settle” and adapt but it wouldn’t have done so in a way that was healthy, and the same is true of Moon. The polarizing nature of this Pokémon makes it a very restrictive presence that simply isn’t healthy to have around.

 

[apoteosis]

Outside of the use of Clefable (unaware specifically because otherwise Moon can just boost and beat it) and Corv, what else is there for the Meta to use to adapt? Throwing Tera as a response to try and panic button vs it is not a good argument either.

There's Moltres:
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 276-325 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It switches onto DD, and then WoW. Game over.

There's Zapdos:
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 288-339 (75.1 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Same as before, but with twave.

There's Scizor:
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Fairy Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 237-280 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 140 Def Tera Fairy Roaring Moon: 356-422 (101.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It switches onto DD and proceeds to kill if tera'd. If not tera: DD->BP->Knock Off->BP:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 140 Def Roaring Moon: 178-211 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Moyashi]

There's Moltres:
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres: 276-325 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It switches onto DD, and then WoW. Game over.

There's Zapdos:
+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 288-339 (75.1 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Same as before, but with twave.

There's Scizor:
252+ Atk Protosynthesis Tera Fairy Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 237-280 (76.2 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 140 Def Tera Fairy Roaring Moon: 356-422 (101.4 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It switches onto DD and proceeds to kill if tera'd. If not tera: DD->BP->Knock Off->BP:
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 140 Def Roaring Moon: 178-211 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Zapdos and Moltres are food for taunt variants where they become literal set up fodder at that point (and speaking from experience it’s also super lame to have to rely on both moves and I’ve had way too many games lost because Wisp/TWave decided to cosplay as OHKO moves and miss at that critical moment). Your Scizor example only works if Moon had Tera’d as otherwise it cannot beat a healthy Moon who literally blows Scizor up at +1, you cannot under any circumstance switch scizor into non Fairy RM and try to 1v1 it because Moon will already be DDing by the time Scizor is in (unless you make extremely aggressive double switch predictions which is not reliable).

You’re not responding the the arguments about the difficulty in prepping for its many sets, and the lack of counter play overlap

 

[apoteosis]

Zapdos and Moltres are food for taunt variants where they become literal set up fodder at that point (and speaking from experience it’s also super lame to have to rely on both moves and I’ve had way too many games lost because Wisp/TWave decided to cosplay as OHKO moves and miss at that critical moment). Your Scizor example only works if Moon had Tera’d as otherwise it cannot beat a healthy Moon who literally blows Scizor up at +1, you cannot under any circumstance switch scizor into non Fairy RM and try to 1v1 it because Moon will already be DDing by the time Scizor is in (unless you make extremely aggressive double switch predictions which is not reliable).

You’re not responding the the arguments about the difficulty in prepping for its many sets, and the lack of counter play overlap

Did you actually read my post?
Last calc was scizor against regular RM (no Tera), and it doesn’t OHKO at +1 with knock off, that’s what I’m telling you.

Like I said, you switch to scizor, RM goes DD on the switch, you attack with BP, he knocks, you don’t die, then the next turn, you BP and that’s it. A 2HKO. If Tera fairy, it’s a OHKO.

The Kanto birds are checks, not counters. If the RM has taunt, you will have to scout for the 4th move, normally, either Tera blast fairy or EQ, it’s not that hard to guess, since it doesn’t have space for roost or other coverage. Like I said before, 4MSS.

 

[Moyashi]

Did you actually read my post?
Last calc was scizor against regular RM (no Tera), and it doesn’t OHKO at +1 with knock off, that’s what I’m telling you.

+1 252+ Atk Protosynthesis Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Scizor: 357-420 (114.7 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I don't want this to be a back and forth between just two people as that tends to just clog up the thread. So I'll just leave it with this:

You’re not responding the the arguments about the difficulty in prepping for its many sets, and the lack of counter play overlap

Please, if you can, respond to this and just this (because you still haven't for some reason). How do you reasonably expect to prepare for its various sets when they have not a ton of overlapping counterplay? It puts a huge burden on the builder and is too punishing in battle to make wrong calls vs or guess its set wrong as free turns given to Moon are deadly.

 

[Brigtel]

As I managed to get the reqs, I will vote against the ban of Roaring Moon. From a competitive point of view, I believe there are reasonable arguments on both sides. For my part, I definitely don't have the impression that Roaring Moon is as untameable as some people say, but that's just my feeling. My vote is basically based on two broader points:

1. At this stage of the generation, I would prefer to see a deban policy rather than the opposite. I have the feeling that some Uber Pokémon could return in OU without disrupting the meta. I think that's what we should be testing.
2. Assuming that some Pokémon no longer have a place in OU, I think there should be other priorities at the moment, and that we certainly shouldn't be going after a Pokémon that favours Hyper Offense in a meta that can sometimes take an unpleasant direction.

In any case, let's see what the vote brings and I'm sure that voters will do their best to make the right choice.

I don't mean any disrespect, but this is a terrible reason to vote do not ban. Your vote is based on two points that do not deal with the substance of this suspect test in any way. Is Roaring Moon broken, or not? And why, and how? You offer no attempt to anser answer these questions, so you basically have no opinion on this suspect test. And similarly, no one will be more informed on what to vote by reading your post. No matter which way you end up voting, I encourage you to rethink your position.

 

[#1 Talonflame Enjoyer]

Top of the evenin' everyone! The glazer of the Smogon Bird is here to give my thoughts on the Roaring Moon Suspect!

Analysis

Roaring moon is a powerhouse of a Pokémon, being able to setup dragon dance and sweep an ungodly amount of teams, and is definitely an imposing threat that should be considered when building teams.

Roaring Moon also doesn't just have one go-to either, with a variety of different sets, common ones you may have seen include:

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying / Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Iron Head / Roost

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 24 HP / 156 Atk / 152 Def / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast
- Roost
Of course, these are only the common sets, some more uncommon (and some possibly unorthodox) sets include the following:

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 24 HP / 156 Atk / 152 Def / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Jaw Lock
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Taunt

Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 220 Atk / 36 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Earthquake / Iron Head

So it's no wonder why it's such an immediate threat, especially when you consider all the tera types it can change into makes it a huge guessing game which set it is in most situations.

On top of this, it's relatively easy to fit Roaring Moon onto teams due to the many rolls it fills of being a Knock Off user, Setup Sweeper, sometimes Bulky Switchin (Say, to a Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball.) makes it threatening on ladder, and sometimes, threatening NOT to use!

This is not to say that Roaring Moon has no checks and counters. For example, very good ones include Dondozo , Who walls it physically and stops setup wtih Unaware. Primarina Who can resist most of it's attacks and OHKO non-tera Moons with a fairy move. Iron Valiant is a great choice to stop a sweep or force a tera if you can catch it swapping in. Landorus-T happens to deal nicely with it despite not being able to entirely muscle through it due to Intimidate and the usually high defense investments it carries, but the best counter / check to Roaring Moon might be Zamazenta due to it's auto-defense boost and ability to threaten it into tera or kill if unavailable.

However, most of these have some flaws such as not being able to do a lot of damage or dying to a tera, making it really risky to switch anything in.

My Thoughts

Based on my experience, I would say the most threatening set is by far Tera Blast due to the defensive and offensive advantages it gains with it, with essentially no drawback, and often times find myself thinking about ways to counter its sets, only for when time comes to put my plan in motion, another set hard walls it, and I get swept.

Overall, I don't find it too threatening, but it's a bit scary just to plan for.

Albeit, I also enjoy my fair share of Roaring Moon sweeps, (though of course I can never get them to happen...) and can see why it was put up for a suspect test.

Final Judgement

Okay, with all of my ranting out of the way, my final thoughts on Roaring Moon are...

Uhh...

Hm...

Oh crap, I don't know.

Admittedly, I am Very on the fence about this suspect test, as I do think Roaring Moon is a bit unhealthy, but don't know if it is enough to get banned, but I am leaning a bit more towards Ban, though, I doubt with my luck I'll be getting reqs anytime soon. T-T

And with that, this closes my thoughts on the Bloodmoon Behemoth. I hope you all enjoyed reading this as I put a lot (30 Minutes) of work into this with getting the sets and color formatting.

I wish you all an amazing rest of your days, God Bless!

 

[Quackborg]

Top of the evenin' everyone! The glazer of the Smogon Bird is here to give my thoughts on the Roaring Moon Suspect!

Analysis

Roaring moon is a powerhouse of a Pokémon, being able to setup dragon dance and sweep an ungodly amount of teams, and is definitely an imposing threat that should be considered when building teams.

Roaring Moon also doesn't just have one go-to either, with a variety of different sets, common ones you may have seen include:

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Flying / Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Acrobatics
- Earthquake

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Earthquake
- Iron Head / Roost

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 24 HP / 156 Atk / 152 Def / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast
- Roost
Of course, these are only the common sets, some more uncommon (and some possibly unorthodox) sets include the following:

Roaring Moon @ Booster Energy
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 24 HP / 156 Atk / 152 Def / 176 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Jaw Lock
- Dragon Dance
- Roost
- Taunt

Roaring Moon @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 220 Atk / 36 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Outrage
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Earthquake / Iron Head

So it's no wonder why it's such an immediate threat, especially when you consider all the tera types it can change into makes it a huge guessing game which set it is in most situations.

On top of this, it's relatively easy to fit Roaring Moon onto teams due to the many rolls it fills of being a Knock Off user, Setup Sweeper, sometimes Bulky Switchin (Say, to a Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball.) makes it threatening on ladder, and sometimes, threatening NOT to use!

This is not to say that Roaring Moon has no checks and counters. For example, very good ones include Dondozo , Who walls it physically and stops setup wtih Unaware. Primarina Who can resist most of it's attacks and OHKO non-tera Moons with a fairy move. Iron Valiant is a great choice to stop a sweep or force a tera if you can catch it swapping in. Landorus-T happens to deal nicely with it despite not being able to entirely muscle through it due to Intimidate and the usually high defense investments it carries, but the best counter / check to Roaring Moon might be Zamazenta due to it's auto-defense boost and ability to threaten it into tera or kill if unavailable.

However, most of these have some flaws such as not being able to do a lot of damage or dying to a tera, making it really risky to switch anything in.

My Thoughts

Based on my experience, I would say the most threatening set is by far Tera Blast due to the defensive and offensive advantages it gains with it, with essentially no drawback, and often times find myself thinking about ways to counter its sets, only for when time comes to put my plan in motion, another set hard walls it, and I get swept.

Overall, I don't find it too threatening, but it's a bit scary just to plan for.

Albeit, I also enjoy my fair share of Roaring Moon sweeps, (though of course I can never get them to happen...) and can see why it was put up for a suspect test.

Final Judgement

Okay, with all of my ranting out of the way, my final thoughts on Roaring Moon are...

Uhh...

Hm...

Oh crap, I don't know.

Admittedly, I am Very on the fence about this suspect test, as I do think Roaring Moon is a bit unhealthy, but don't know if it is enough to get banned, but I am leaning a bit more towards Ban, though, I doubt with my luck I'll be getting reqs anytime soon. T-T

And with that, this closes my thoughts on the Bloodmoon Behemoth. I hope you all enjoyed reading this as I put a lot (30 Minutes) of work into this with getting the sets and color formatting.

I wish you all an amazing rest of your days, God Bless!

just wanna note all the tera ground sets are adamant and hitting 303 speed that ive seen