Metagame SV Monotype Metagame Discussion [Indigo Disk]

To be completely fair, however, there's a fair amount of shouting from the hilltops about all three of these Pokémon right now, especially since all three are, in my humble opinion, restrictive and contribute to the rock-paper-scissors ass meta (thanks hex) that we've been dealing with since the Kingambit ban (and arguably before that). Frustration at how little is ultimately being done is at least somewhat warranted because it means that we still have a worse metagame for it. If we want some recent numbers to compare to, let's look at both meta satisfaction ratings and opinions on the previous survey in a meta with two mons who are now banned- Espathra and Kingambit.

Stats from the August 2024 Survey

Enjoyment
  • Qualified: 6.81 / 10
  • General: 6.91 / 10
Competitiveness
  • Qualified: 6.38 / 10
  • General: 6.16 / 10
Stats from the December 2024 Survey

Enjoyment
  • Qualified: 6.71/10
  • General: 6.75/10
Competitiveness
  • Qualified: 6.42
  • General: 6.31
So at the very least, these two metas should be somewhat comparable for the sake of figuring out the current restrictive issues in them, given that they both featured ban-worthy mons who were highlighted by the survey to be either in need of close monitoring or action. Now let's look at the numbers for Espathra and Kingambit and compare them to Zamazenta, Gouging Fire, and Gliscor, because the jumps in community attention are ultimately similar, even if the actual numbers keep them out of immediate action territory.

Kingambit :kingambit:

April 2024

  • Qualified: 3.51 / 5
  • General: 3.39 / 5
August 2024
  • Qualified: 3.81 / 5
  • General: 3.52 / 5
Espathra :espathra:

April 2024


No numbers here, just enough mentions to warrant its inclusion in the next survey.

August 2024
  • Qualified: 3.76 / 5
  • General: 3.44 / 5
Gouging Fire :gouging-fire:

August 2024
  • Qualified: 3.19 / 5
  • General: 3.23 / 5
December 2024
  • Qualified: 3.66 / 5
  • General: 3.5 / 5
Zamazenta :zamazenta:

August 2024
  • Qualified: 3.14 / 5
  • General: 3.09 / 5
December 2024
  • Qualified: 3.58 / 5
  • General: 3.49 / 5
Gliscor :gliscor:

August 2024
  • Qualified: 2.81 / 5
  • General: 2.56 / 5
December 2024
  • Qualified: 3.53 / 5
  • General: 3.24 / 5
So when we look at these numbers, we can see how comparable the jumps in player attention are, even if the final results for the December trio ultimately fall short of immediate action. I think it does, at the very least, warrant some more active and productive discussion on these three Pokémon from not just from the playerbase, but also from the council and metagame leaders in more public spheres to at least facilitate/inspire some amount of debate. To that extent, I can both understand why we don't see immediate action (although I hope MWP and Circuit Playoffs help change that) and why it's frustrating to feel like these issues are being swept under the rug. If we want a better meta, which I think we all do, it would be nice for all of us to voice our opinions in places like the forums or the room, but it would also be great for us to be able to hear from the council more actively to help us engage in the necessary debates to improve the game that we all want to enjoy. For my personal takes, I want to share them in a more detailed post later, but briefly: I think all three of these Pokémon should go andd that the game would be more balanced for it. They invalidate much of the diversity that otherwise makes a metagame fun by snuffing out whole types nearly singlehandedly, with Gouging Fire in particular contributing to the stranglehold that Dragon has on the current meta. Right now, if you want to have as decent of a shot of winning as possible, you are loading either Dragon, Steel, or Flying (or maybe gambling on Fighting/Fire/Ground) and giving it a go. It makes running anything else run the risk of just running into the same 3-4 types or Pokémon that you just can't beat in 9/10 scenarios. Unbalanced MUs happen in Monotype by its very nature, but this meta feels like it has so many lopsided MUs that it borders on unfun. You can have fun playing any of the 3-6 types I mentioned earlier, but reaching outside that feels nightmarish more times than not.
 
Despite Gouging Fire being on the top of the list, I feel like Zamazenta is more constricting to the metagame than it (or Gliscor, butt all three are quite unhealthy in their own ways). Anyway, since action on all these three at the same time isnt really doable, might as well present my case on the bad dog.

1. Near-uncontested speed tier, bulk, and decent attack makes it fomidable even for non-Atk invested attacks, trading against multiple opponents at the worst case. This also separates it from the other ID Press mon, which have exploitable flaws (i.e. bad speed and SpD for Skarmory)

412 Speed is way beyond most special attackers that would hope to counter the dog, only being outsped by Dragapult. While Dragapult does give Fighting teams quite a headache because it can Will-o-Wisp and bypasses Zamazenta's Substitute a.) It is unable to actually OHKO Zamazenta without overcommiting to Draco Meteor and Iron Valiant can find a free swap-in especially if it doesnt carry CC, b.) Its 2HKO'ed by non Atk invested Crunch / 3HKO'ed by Heavy Slam, c.) It can be Choice Band and just OHKO Pult on the switch. Dragapult aside, Fairy-types not named Primarina are dealt with by the dog: Zama outspeeds and OHKOes Flutter Mane, live Enamorus' Moonblast and OHKO back with HSlam (uninvested) after Stealth Rocks, trades with non Choice Scarf Iron Valiant, and even 2HKOes Hatterene outside of screens. On the flying side, its only truly outbulked by Skarmory (and I guess Moltres, but then again Choice Band will OHKO it), but team effort will deal with it. Tornadus-T is also an answer, but luck and Iron Hands, and Torn being exclusively Flying makes it :/. Because of these traits:

2. Its one of the few mons that can feasibly run away with the game on team preview (at least for the Iron Defense set), assuming it has the correct coverage against the team.

Its able to basically setup and sweep against types without Skarmory, Moltres, Volcarona, a Ghost-type with Recovery (i.e. Gholdengo, Strength Sap Sinistcha, Sableye), or Poison with Recovery (i.e. Toxapex with Haze [note that Toxapex isnt that great too], Clodsire with Haze). Although this is a bit of a hyperbole, since Ground has Clod and Hippo which technically means ID Zama doesnt get through the team as freely* and plays matter, running bad moves on Clod just to check a single threat, and Hippo losing 1v1 lategame anyway is stinky. The move aside from Body Press on Zama also makes Zama even better; Stone Edge means Volcarona Fire teams and Moltres arent checks anymore, Crunch makes more progress in the dragon matchup, and H.Slam lets Zama contribute more against Flutter Mane.

Well, if I do have Sinistcha or Gholdengo with Recover I'm safe right?

3. Set Variety.

Choice Band set just breaks the guys that "wall" the Iron Defense set. Choice Scarf lets it punt Choice Scarf Greninja or Enamorus that tries to check it. Choice Scarf Zama is actually so fast that its able to revenge +2 Cerul and even Exca under sand, even if its not the strongest. This leads to an unfortunate scouting game that can cost the opponent enough mons, which Fighting can leverage to take over the game due to Fighting's offensive nature.

Because of these reasons I think Dog is bad for monotype and should be banned. Will Dragon become stronger after the ban? Yes, since ID Zama is another Gouger check, and well they can just suspect it afterwards anyway. Gliscor isnt really affected by no Zama but Gliscor's ability to just not die is soo annoying, like Sub Toxic or SD sets make me want to tear my fur out to some extent but Doggo first.

I hope this contributes something to the discussion. Nice to see this thread getting revived somehow.
 
Despite Gouging Fire being on the top of the list, I feel like Zamazenta is more constricting to the metagame than it (or Gliscor, butt all three are quite unhealthy in their own ways). Anyway, since action on all these three at the same time isnt really doable, might as well present my case on the bad dog.

1. Near-uncontested speed tier, bulk, and decent attack makes it fomidable even for non-Atk invested attacks, trading against multiple opponents at the worst case. This also separates it from the other ID Press mon, which have exploitable flaws (i.e. bad speed and SpD for Skarmory)

412 Speed is way beyond most special attackers that would hope to counter the dog, only being outsped by Dragapult. While Dragapult does give Fighting teams quite a headache because it can Will-o-Wisp and bypasses Zamazenta's Substitute a.) It is unable to actually OHKO Zamazenta without overcommiting to Draco Meteor and Iron Valiant can find a free swap-in especially if it doesnt carry CC, b.) Its 2HKO'ed by non Atk invested Crunch / 3HKO'ed by Heavy Slam, c.) It can be Choice Band and just OHKO Pult on the switch. Dragapult aside, Fairy-types not named Primarina are dealt with by the dog: Zama outspeeds and OHKOes Flutter Mane, live Enamorus' Moonblast and OHKO back with HSlam (uninvested) after Stealth Rocks, trades with non Choice Scarf Iron Valiant, and even 2HKOes Hatterene outside of screens. On the flying side, its only truly outbulked by Skarmory (and I guess Moltres, but then again Choice Band will OHKO it), but team effort will deal with it. Tornadus-T is also an answer, but luck and Iron Hands, and Torn being exclusively Flying makes it :/. Because of these traits:

2. Its one of the few mons that can feasibly run away with the game on team preview (at least for the Iron Defense set), assuming it has the correct coverage against the team.

Its able to basically setup and sweep against types without Skarmory, Moltres, Volcarona, a Ghost-type with Recovery (i.e. Gholdengo, Strength Sap Sinistcha, Sableye), or Poison with Recovery (i.e. Toxapex with Haze [note that Toxapex isnt that great too], Clodsire with Haze). Although this is a bit of a hyperbole, since Ground has Clod and Hippo which technically means ID Zama doesnt get through the team as freely* and plays matter, running bad moves on Clod just to check a single threat, and Hippo losing 1v1 lategame anyway is stinky. The move aside from Body Press on Zama also makes Zama even better; Stone Edge means Volcarona Fire teams and Moltres arent checks anymore, Crunch makes more progress in the dragon matchup, and H.Slam lets Zama contribute more against Flutter Mane.

Well, if I do have Sinistcha or Gholdengo with Recover I'm safe right?

3. Set Variety.

Choice Band set just breaks the guys that "wall" the Iron Defense set. Choice Scarf lets it punt Choice Scarf Greninja or Enamorus that tries to check it. Choice Scarf Zama is actually so fast that its able to revenge +2 Cerul and even Exca under sand, even if its not the strongest. This leads to an unfortunate scouting game that can cost the opponent enough mons, which Fighting can leverage to take over the game due to Fighting's offensive nature.

Because of these reasons I think Dog is bad for monotype and should be banned. Will Dragon become stronger after the ban? Yes, since ID Zama is another Gouger check, and well they can just suspect it afterwards anyway. Gliscor isnt really affected by no Zama but Gliscor's ability to just not die is soo annoying, like Sub Toxic or SD sets make me want to tear my fur out to some extent but Doggo first.

I hope this contributes something to the discussion. Nice to see this thread getting revived somehow.
agree with most aside from the last part, i dont think dragon will be stronger, in fact we will have more types that can deal with dragon that always lose to zama on preview if they didnt run some bs sets. Ground is an example of a type that I think will benefit the most from the zama ban and help a lot with the issue we are facing with flying and dragon (especially those 2 types rely on double steel core), u wont be forced to run shitty scarf lando anymore or haze clod. Water and dark also on the same wave.
 
Hey,
So recently I have been trying out the tier ever since I stopped playing mono in gen6, played around 100 games and got pretty high on the ladder with teams off samples and other forums postings (to the creators of those, u guys are the real mvps here) and just wanted to throw a couple of takes.

These takes are mainly from my experience on ladder!

:Archaludon: :Goodra-Hisui: on DRAGON:
Ok so probably a hot take to begin with, dealing with both is really really hard when u have to account for all the other threats dragon can offer.
Archaludon is definitely the hardest one to get rid of for a plethora of types.
Have seen protect and dtail as last, but want to shout roar for overall phasing and limiting gliscor’s recovery.
Dragon’s pool of good mons really makes it one of the best, if not the best type rn.
This last statement is accentuated by the fact that in Week 2 of MWP, Dragon won 7/8 games (shoutout to Stories) equivalent to 87.5%

:Gliscor:: Oh don’t we all hate love the scorpion…
Think this one is easily my biggest ban candidate.
Makes flying way better than it needs to be with multiple sets being viable, forces progress every game via knock/tox, kinda invalidates rock as a “cteam” if protox, poison being unable to break past any good defensive core that supports the scorpion (worry seed :amoonguss:?), etc.
Could go on and on about gliscor…
(btw abuse it on ladder)

Fake :Entei::
Gouging Fire bulky sets are crazy and, again, contributed heavily towards the whole 7/8 streak dragon had week 2. Definitely a mon to look at.
Ladder has yet to pick up on it I feel.

:Zamazenta:
Can’t say much about it due to the lack of games vs and with it.
Seems like a big threat regardless.

:Regieleki: aka ELECTRIC:
Really think this has potential in the long run after a potential Gliscor ban.

Think the council and all of the players that support this tier did a great job in the tiering process.

Question to motivate some interaction:

What is the best archetype for each type (Stall, BO, Balance, HO)? and why? If possible.
 
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What is the best type for each archetype (Stall, BO, Balance, HO)? and why? If possible.
Bug: HO because most the defensive options Bug has, besides:forretress:, holds back the type from winning games fast. TheWyvernKing will probably have a more accurate and detailed explanation since he’s our local neighborhood Satoshi.

Dark: Bulky Offense because it’s a well rounded type even after the bans. Sort of have to know what you’re facing, or have a pretty good idea of what you’re facing, because this type really likes to win from the team builder.

Dragon: Bulky Offense because of the best defensive core and flexible offensive cores.

Electric: HO because bad types have to fight for survival.

Fairy: Screens Offense because Klefki makes the whole squad 2HKO or more while they can 1–2HKO in return.

Fighting: Bulky Offense because Fighting actually has a defensive core this game and great offensive tools to utilize.

Fire: Sun HO because Fire is the best offense in the game. Sun + Fire STAB spam is hard to wall off if you aren’t using Dragon or Water.

Flying: Balance because Flying has one of the best defensive cores in the game and keeps momentum on its side for majority of the game.

Ghost: HO because Ghost STAB is spammable and splashable if you aren’t packing a Dark type to keep it in check.

Grass: Bulky Offense because bad types have to fight for survival. But this type has Ogerpon.

Ground: Sand Offense because Ground has some of the hardest hitting mons in the tier and Gravity to make its STAB almost unresisted.

Ice: Snow HO because this type especially has to fight for survival after having both kneecaps busted in losing Chien Pao and Baxcalibur.

Normal: Balance Offense because Normal always needs a defensive core to be viable.

Poison: Stall because RegenCore helps Poison weather the storm against most types with a few offensive options to help with harder matchups. Our residential toxicologist, Pengairxan, will provide a detailed report on the subject.

Psychic: Bulky Offense because bad types have to fight for survival. But now in ✨color✨.

Rock: Sand Offense because bad types have to fight for survival.

Steel: Balance because the Immunity Core is the second strongest defensive core in the game.

Water: Balance / Stall historically, these two archetypes have been neck and neck on both ladder and in tour play. The most versatile type in the game regardless of it losing a little more often this gen compared to previous generations.
 
Zams gone, I like meta changes so far 100%. Fighting's still solid and it feels overall like a net w for tier diversity and removed some restrictions in the builder.

Some people probs want another suspect like immediately but frankly I do want to see the meta shift first a bit more, like at least wait till end of seasonals is my perspective. Either way I think the goal should be to suspect both :Gouging-Fire: and :Gliscor: both by MPL.

GF I still see as the bigger issue, I see it as a mon that limits HO and HO options ALOT in this meta, and does an insane job of disrupting momentum against dragon. Not to mention, Dragon is way too overcentralizing at the moment. Currently Dragon has a 70% winrate outside the mirror while maintaining #1 usage in MWP by a long shot, to me this means that even though there are types that can do well into Dragon - Fighting for instance - it's ultimately incredibly difficult to find effective and consistent anti-dragon solutions. Not to mention, even though Fighting as an example is still solid and pretty good into Dragon, Dragon's depth of options means it can tailor itself pretty reliable to handle different matchups. Pretty reliably you can make fighting something you feel confident in beating while still having a team very competitive in the meta. The ban of Zama and meta shifts may allow more options to better handle Drag, but even then I think the endresult we'll arrive at is a meta entirely dictated by trying to handle the type. To put it simply, Dragon needs some form of regulation, and in addition to the other reasons why I believe Gouging is unhealthy, I believe it's also the mon that would have the most direct impact on a dragon build if it were to go. I can go more into depth on this if people want, but I don't think Hoodra going would change much outside of making the mirror absolutely atrocious. Similarly, while I believe that some physical attackers may become more threatening, Arch going also comes with direct replacements in Chomp or Kommo O as a physically defensive Rocker and ultimately doesn't really shift Dragon's mu chart in my eyes. I don't see either going as something that would ultimately swap Dragon's matchup chart the way that a Gouging ban would open up Dragon way more to types such as Dark, Fairy, Fighting, and Bug, as well as lesser viable types like Grass and Ice. Gouging is centralizing in a couple different ways - most notably with completely flipping the bug mu to the point where bug completely loses tournament viability. I quite literally saw a playing in mono chat the other day complaining about how if GF went, that Dragon would become unfavored vs. Bug and struggle vs. it's offensive sweepers. Ironicaly enough, it's this very ability to shut down offensive attempts to beat Dragon that makes it so problematic. There are a number of other problem matchups involving Gouging, Bug is just the most notable and exemplary. It's a type with many solid mus into the meta that loses viability due to one type it otherwise would win. While not as noteworthy/not standing out as much, Fire's band set still has discussion around it though frankly I don't see this as the main point of contention.

Glisc I'm a bit more on the fence for but people have been crying about a bunch. I kinda hate that the entire argument is "it's unkillable" but if Flying's core is as overbearing as people say, Gliscor would be the mon to target. That being said I don't care as much about the bat.
 
Zams gone, I like meta changes so far 100%. Fighting's still solid and it feels overall like a net w for tier diversity and removed some restrictions in the builder.

Some people probs want another suspect like immediately but frankly I do want to see the meta shift first a bit more, like at least wait till end of seasonals is my perspective. Either way I think the goal should be to suspect both :Gouging-Fire: and :Gliscor: both by MPL.

GF I still see as the bigger issue, I see it as a mon that limits HO and HO options ALOT in this meta, and does an insane job of disrupting momentum against dragon. Not to mention, Dragon is way too overcentralizing at the moment. Currently Dragon has a 70% winrate outside the mirror while maintaining #1 usage in MWP by a long shot, to me this means that even though there are types that can do well into Dragon - Fighting for instance - it's ultimately incredibly difficult to find effective and consistent anti-dragon solutions. Not to mention, even though Fighting as an example is still solid and pretty good into Dragon, Dragon's depth of options means it can tailor itself pretty reliable to handle different matchups. Pretty reliably you can make fighting something you feel confident in beating while still having a team very competitive in the meta. The ban of Zama and meta shifts may allow more options to better handle Drag, but even then I think the endresult we'll arrive at is a meta entirely dictated by trying to handle the type. To put it simply, Dragon needs some form of regulation, and in addition to the other reasons why I believe Gouging is unhealthy, I believe it's also the mon that would have the most direct impact on a dragon build if it were to go. I can go more into depth on this if people want, but I don't think Hoodra going would change much outside of making the mirror absolutely atrocious. Similarly, while I believe that some physical attackers may become more threatening, Arch going also comes with direct replacements in Chomp or Kommo O as a physically defensive Rocker and ultimately doesn't really shift Dragon's mu chart in my eyes. I don't see either going as something that would ultimately swap Dragon's matchup chart the way that a Gouging ban would open up Dragon way more to types such as Dark, Fairy, Fighting, and Bug, as well as lesser viable types like Grass and Ice. Gouging is centralizing in a couple different ways - most notably with completely flipping the bug mu to the point where bug completely loses tournament viability. I quite literally saw a playing in mono chat the other day complaining about how if GF went, that Dragon would become unfavored vs. Bug and struggle vs. it's offensive sweepers. Ironicaly enough, it's this very ability to shut down offensive attempts to beat Dragon that makes it so problematic. There are a number of other problem matchups involving Gouging, Bug is just the most notable and exemplary. It's a type with many solid mus into the meta that loses viability due to one type it otherwise would win. While not as noteworthy/not standing out as much, Fire's band set still has discussion around it though frankly I don't see this as the main point of contention.

Glisc I'm a bit more on the fence for but people have been crying about a bunch. I kinda hate that the entire argument is "it's unkillable" but if Flying's core is as overbearing as people say, Gliscor would be the mon to target. That being said I don't care as much about the bat.
Bug mentioned!?!?!?
I 100% agree. Bug would be so viable if it weren't for gouging. I could build an araquanid set that isn't fully built to deal with one Pokemon (and even still relies on liquidation defence drops to break through the damn dog).

You made my point well, so I'd like to talk about Gliscor a bit more. Poison heal is one of the best abilities in Pokemon, poison heal on a defensive Pokemon is disgustingly broken, and protect allows it to essentially be immune to status and heal a free 12%. It brings disgustingly unfair 50/50's of whether Gliscor will protect or not, and complete gambles on what stat it's invested in, while also giving flying reliable toxic spread. It is however very matchup-dependent, so it being unkillable is specific to some matchups. I'd like to give the meta a bit more time to rest, gouging we know is banworthy, but we should wait and see how people start to build counterplay to Gliscor before considering a suspect.
 
It’s been awhile since Zamazenta’s ban. I’ll ask a few questions to gauge people’s thoughts.

1. Who are the winners and losers since Zamazenta’s ban?

2. Does your team builder feel more relived now that Zamazenta is gone?

3. What 6th slot on Fighting have you been trying that’s gotten you consistent results?

Bonus question: Where do you think Fighting ranks among the top types?
 
It’s been awhile since Zamazenta’s ban. I’ll ask a few questions to gauge people’s thoughts.

1. Who are the winners and losers since Zamazenta’s ban?

2. Does your team builder feel more relived now that Zamazenta is gone?

3. What 6th slot on Fighting have you been trying that’s gotten you consistent results?

Bonus question: Where do you think Fighting ranks among the top types?

As a Mono-Fighter try-hard, I sadly can’t respond for the first 2 questions, but I can answer the last ones:

■ [3. Question] It depends on the team you’ve been using with Zamazenta before it's ban (which is very tragic):

IF it was like this:

◆ (:Gallade: :Sneasler: :Urshifu: :Great Tusk: :Iron Valiant: :Zamazenta:) then you change (:Zamazenta:) for (:Iron Hands:) !

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◆ Why Iron Hands? (THE most successful in my opinion)
Iron Hands is hands down one of the best additions of the Fighting Type in generation 9. Great bulk with enormous HP, good physical defense and acceptable special defense. It mostly runs Swords Dance set, given Gallade is the better AV user. It has mostly Shuca Berry to tank a hit from Ground Pókemon or Eartquake/Earth Power from random Pókemon. You can ALSO use Lum Berry for either Burns or Poisons. It has also a great attack on 140, boosting it more with Swords Dance, having the "Bolt-Beam" coverage with Ice Punch and Thunder Punch, not to mention STAB Drain Punch for recovery. Therefore being a great asset against Steel, Flying and bulky teams.

◆ (:Gallade: :Sneasler: :Great Tusk: :Iron Hands: :Iron Valiant: :Zamazenta:) then you change (:Zamazenta:) for (:Urshifu:) !

1Normal w.png

◆ Why Urshifu?
With Zamazenta gone, Urshifu can take its place, offering the team a Swords Dance sweeper and a priority move with Aqua Jet. As a present in generation 9, it has gained Swords Dance. With an excellent 130 physical attack, Urshifu can boost it even further with Swords Dance, being able to do huge damage with STAB multi-attack Surging Strikes, always doing critical damage, avoiding defense boosts and Close Combat. It can also carry Punching Glove for avoiding burns by Flame Body, paralysis by Static and Rocky Helmet's chip damage and even boosting Surging Strikes for a lil bit of power. It can also even carry Mystic Water to increase the power of its STAB Water moves.


Honorable mentions:
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◆ Scrafty:
While not the best option in the world, being massively powercrept by the introduction of Fairy-types, it can still pull up its weight to actually have a role in a fighting team. It is a great help against Dark and Ghost teams, being immune to Psychic while also having STAB Knock Off and Drain Punch, boosted further with Bulk Up. It has recovery with Leftovers and Rest. But why Rest? With the help of its ability Shed Skin, it can also snap out of its sleep while healing itself up. It is mostly used as a specially bulky sweeper with Bulk Up. HOWEVER most of the players change Gallade with Scrafty, therefore being a costly choice.

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◆ Breloom:
It comes to no one's surprise to know Breloom is very weak as the generations go on. BUT one thing it will always have for itself is Spore. Sleep is stupid and broken if you ask me and Breloom can put menacing Pókemon for the Fighting type to sleep while also having a great 130 attack, technician boosted STAB moves Bullet Seed and Mach Puch. It is a killjoy for water types once Toxapex is gone, HOWEVER it is a con TOO heavy to carry.

■ [4. "Bonus" Question] I think it's STILL great, even without (my GOAT) Zamazenta, because I see how Fighting can Manage match-ups with different NOTABLE types:

45px-Typ-Icon_Stahl_(Symbol)_KAPU.png

◆ Steel:
Urshifu is a pain for Steel types due to its Water/Fighting type, having STAB Surging Strikes that always crits and Close Combat. Iron hands can also be tedious for them because of its Electric type, EV set for being faster than Skarmory and STAB Drain AND Thunder Punch. Gallade with Sacred Sword Does HUGE Damage and can take out Gholdengo. Scrafty also can tribute helping Fighting in this Matchup. The only nuisance for Fighting is Skarmory and Gholdengo (also Iron Crown, but it's less seen).

45px-Typ-Icon_Flug_(Symbol)_KAPU.png

◆ Flying:
With the help of Iron Hands, Iron Valiant, Urshifu and Stealth Rock from Great Tusk, Fighting can manage to have a chance in beating Flying. never forget Gallade tanking special attacks from Tornadus-T and Enamorus, Sneasler for out-speeding them and eve poisoning them.

45px-Typ-Icon_Drache_(Symbol)_KAPU.png

◆ Dragon:
This is a matchup that is pretty challenging for the Fighting type after the ban of Zamazenta! You still have EB Valiant and Gallade for Latios, Archaludon and Kyurem, Great Tusk for Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon, Iron Hands dealing damage while healing itself and Choice Scarf Sneasler for pivoting and momentum.

45px-Typ-Icon_Boden_(Symbol)_KAPU.png

◆ Ground:
Urshifu is the grim reaper for Ground teams due to STAB Surging Strikes, Aqua Jet and Close Combat (can hit hard on Clodsire, even if it resists it). Iron Valiant and Hands can help with Ice coverage via Ice Punch (STAB Moonblast for Valiant to hit Hippowdon), Iron Hands can use Shuca Berry and troll the Ground Pókemon. Sneasler can cripple either Clodsire or Hippowdon with Switcheroo, trading its Choice Scarf.

45px-Typ-Icon_Unlicht_(Symbol)_KAPU.png

◆ Dark:
Even with Greninja, Sableye and Meowscarda in the team, you can manage to beat it. Iron Valian is always trouble for Dark with STAB Moonblast AND Close Combat, making troubles for the team, especially for Sableye and Mandibuzz. You have Great Tusk and Iron hands, tanking hits from Meowscarada, Great Tusk can set Stealth Rock, Gallade and even Iron Hands can take on Greninja (Iron Hands only once with enough health), Sneasler can pivot, doing pesky damage. Urshifu has priority Aqua Jet to have SOME role into the team. Hell, Scrafty can be also a problem for the Dark teams, since it's immune to Sableye's Prankster.

45px-Typ-Icon_Fee_(Symbol)_KAPU.png

◆ Fairy:
This is the match-up where the ban of Zamazenta really hurts the most. You still have Sneasler for the general Fairy team, including Azumarill, Primarina and Hatterene, Great Tusk can at least use Knock Off or (if Hatterene is gone) in a chance set Steath Rock while Damaging Klefki. You have Gallade, able to tank special hits, a Moonlast from Fluteer Mane and kill it with STAB Psycho Cut or priority Shadow Sneak. Urshifu CAn also help in getting rid of Flutter Mane via Aqua Jet, Hands can get rid of Primarina and Hatterene with its Swords Dnce set, or at least greatly damage them and Iron Valiant COULD help as well. However in this MU, sadly, the Fighting type won't have it easy.

◆ Thoughts about ranking Fighting:
Giving my thought and reflecting upon them, I realize Fighting still has its valuable "resources" or Pókemon, making it capable to pull against most of the match-ups with top types such as Ground and Steel. Therefore, I'd rank Fighting in A tier! (A- tier at worst)

So there you have it, Jahkem">Jahkem, my thought on Fighting! Thank you so much for you GOATed Team! It helped me out a LOT!

Bonus:

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Farewell, my beloved Zamy. May we meet again... It was fun playing with you while it lasted...​
 
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It’s been awhile since Zamazenta’s ban. I’ll ask a few questions to gauge people’s thoughts.

1. Who are the winners and losers since Zamazenta’s ban?

2. Does your team builder feel more relived now that Zamazenta is gone?

3. What 6th slot on Fighting have you been trying that’s gotten you consistent results?

Bonus question: Where do you think Fighting ranks among the top types?
This is just from observations from playing Ladder/watching the monthly ladder.

1. Dark and Normal are the main winners with Zamazenta's ban as, especially Dark which will likely see a lot less usage of Sableye (4th most used mon on Dark last month) while Mandibuzz is predicted to rise and take its place (we will have to wait and see if this turns out true or not, I'm not a believer and think Sableye will still be much more popular than Mandibuzz) while Normal still has major issues with Fighting, a faster bulky setup sweeper is no longer one of them which will likely make that matchup a bit less stressful for them overall. Ground also improves which is bad for me, but they can rejoice without the need to run Haze Clodsire for a dog. Steel and Flying might of lost from Zamazenta being banned, Steel kind of didn't care thanks to Bulk up Corv, Iron Defense Skarmory and Gholdengo generally handling Zamazenta while Flying had Moltres and Skarmory to fall back on defensively and Scarf Enamorus offensivelly. Without Zamazenta more threatening mons to those types such as Iron Hands and Urshifu are seeing an uptick in usage and will not be appreciated in the long run for either of them. Also Poison takes a hit from this as well since Zama was basically never breaking Pex/Pecharunt/Bulk Up Okidogi anyway unless it was CB Psychic Fangs (which even then wasn't the end of the world) But Double AV Hands + Gallade teams be hella scary.

2. Not really, my teambuilder is primarly Poison but in general is fairly anti Fighting and I haven't done too much teambuilding since the ban of Zama.

3. While I don't play Fighting I can comment on what I've seen, notably Iron Hands and Urshifu have clearly taken the top spot for what is mainly being used on Fighting now, Okidogi has also seen a lot more usage usually on teams that dedicate their scarfer to Urshifu allowing them to drop Sneasler for Dogi's unique set of traits. Also it might just be me, but I swear I'm seeing more Cobalion than before.

Bonus question: I think Fighting's fall off isn't that bad while Zama was good it didn't define Fighting completely and Fighting still has a bunch of incredible tools with solid speed and one of the strongest and most spammable stags in te tier, it will likely remain a solid type and in discussion for top 5 overall.
 
Hey everyone I think enough time has passed since zama has been banned and MWP has concluded. I wanna talk about some really cool developments since then:

  1. Dark
Dark has finally reemerged as one of the best types to pick in the meta right now. It has almost everything you want, breakers, speed, hazards and hazard control. It’s one of few types that can break through most defensive cores available with little to no fail. It isn’t super bulky outside of tinglu and manibuzz but honestly you don’t need to be. AV Phys Def hoopa-U is something I really thought about while in the trenches of MWP. To help shore up hoopa’s god awful phys bulky with relying on its natural breaking power to break cores while still taking spdef attacks that are needed. Hisui-samruott is one of the most pivotal mons i’ve seen since zamazenta ban that has really taken off. Slow pivoting from mandibuzz into this gives it the room to do so much and in doing damage and setting up hazards. Fighting MU has gotten so much better for dark since they no longer have zama to blanket check everything not hoopa-U. So much so you don’t need to run sab (and for good reason it really limited what you could run and the momentum of dark altogether). I think with darkrai vs greninja debate now has a bit more merit (even tho i do think darkrai actually competes more so with hisui samruott since you should never drop greninja nowadays). There is room for other mons on dark now but hisui samruott stands out as the premier pick for the 5th slot of the dark’s everchanging cast of characters.

  1. Flying
This type has so much it wants to do but it’s often limited to having to choose what types of matches it wants to lose to. Double steel flying has fallen completely off (thank god), but what has replaced is the choice to completely give up one or more of the following: Dragon/water/ground/steel/fire/fighting/dark/ghost I really think flying is in a such an awkward state of having to pick between one or more MUs at a time to lose to. I think flying used to be one of the safest types to load, but in my humble opinion times hasn’t been kind to it. You want gyrados, you want articuno, you want moltress, you want spdef corvinknight, you want enamorus, you want gmolt, you want SOOOOO much like this type is really big backed and greedy. It’s forced to run something in the middle and that doesn’t outright win vs anything and still loses to a aforementioned types with even the slightest of changes to a single set. I think everyone was so hyperfixated on blaming gliscor for causing builder problems but flying in itself is a building problem. If you run SD gliscor your forced to run rocks on another mon or go hazardless. If you run rocks gliscor you just don’t do anything in the mirror or you have to get predictions right for the entire game to make progress with toxic. You want so many things on this type and you end up in a way, matchup fishing to hope you get something neutral. I know a lot of people rate flying quite highly and when it doesn’t face the flying killer that beats that particular build it’s amazing. But i think flying just has fallen off.

  1. Fire
Fire has one of its biggest limiters gone but it’s still an uphill battle since fire is locked to 5 slots and the last one is which matchup you wanna fish more, do you want volcarona or do you want ceru? Both are kinda ass (yes I said ceru is kinda ass you can take it up with ya mama). Fire needs to be explored quite a bit since I think right now ceru/volcarona being the best 6th slot is just kinda tragic. I think fire has potential but the constriction with the sample 5 needs to be expanded upon or do something different with the sets.

  1. Dragon
We have arrived at the biggest elephant in the room. Dragon is by far and away the best type in SV Monotype. Dragon has the most threatening defensive core in the entire SV metagame, Archaludon, Goodra-Hisui, and Gouging Fire. There is one mon that is not like the others here. That is gouging fire. I think it’s been discussed quite enough that this is one the biggest constrictions on the builder. To touch back on the previous types for a second dark AND water (i’ll make another post maybe about that) have been using multiple mons good at beating dragon because of this builder constriction. Hisui-Samruott’s biggest rise was because it can indeed threaten the goodra-hisui/Archaludon core very well. But one mon it can’t just power through without extreme risks is gouging fire. Often time you would rather just take the more safe way and toxic/foul play stall with mandibuzz. Gouging fire out of the 3 has the most set variety that can take advantage of the breakers of goodra/archaludon. Damage against it almost 99% of the time is not permanent unlike the former 2. With zamazenta gone one of the tiers ways of straight up denying all 3 of them in one singular slot is gone. Fighting isn’t gonna crumble completely vs dragon since your running the head hoodlum scrafty but the matchup is certainly not favored for fighting anymore without having to make severe concessions towards other matches (which why wouldn’t you its the best type might as well not be dead on arrival). Flying has to go over the moon and stars not to lose to gouging and the rarer kyurem (still loses to mix sets). I think one of the biggest gaslights since the start of the gouging fire debacle is that archaludon was the culprit and behind why gouging fire takes advantage of so many mons.. When damage against it is permanent and it doesn’t have good mixed bulk (also can’t reliably set up sweep). If anything archaludon synergies well with heatran with steel to keep it at bay from getting outright dog walked by gouging fire. If you feel like this feels like a conversation of broken checking broken then the best way to go about this is really getting action on gouging fire. I think dragon would be absolutely fine if it had just archlaudon and goodra-hisui being those mons are very exploitable but the fact of the matter is that gouging fire is always getting the opportunity to help take advantage of the mons that would otherwise break through this core.

  1. Water
This type was ass before zama and it continues to be completely ass after its ban. Water balance feels really bad to play with since your just either so slow/ not bulky enough/ breakers don’t break the right things. Only the extreme’s of water stall and rain feel like their worth playing. Even these are kinda fishy. If they have a super bulky or have a resist rain feels like its dead on arrival. Stall really just has the mindset of it either it runs into a stallbreaker and crumbles or it doesn’t and you get dondozo’d (there are alot of stallbreakers in this tier).

  1. Ground
Ground has been in a weird spot since zama’s ban. It’s not getting completely 6-0d by fighting like it used to (tho urshifu is still running game). Water has kinda came back out of the woodwork which unless the water used is actively trying to lose (stall not included) you don’t have much of any counterplay. Sandless ground has popped up again which is always nice to not see them ashy ass lando/hippo/exca/mamo/clod +1 comps. I think sandless ground has a lot of potential it just needs to iron out what it wants to prioritize in winning.

  1. Ghost
Will ghost finally get its flowers for being one of the best types in SV? Probably not but it deserves it. It’s one of the only true HO types that flourish from these weird balances/bulky offense types. It has the most variety of sets in a limited pool of mons of all of SV. You want spikes? Tumbleweed, you like para spam you got like 4 mons that can do that, you want to click buttons and destroy them all? It’s just perfect at just trying to win the game. It can stallbreak, it has amazing speed control and damage against their defensive pieces are not permanent (im looking at you fire). I highly encourage everyone to give it a try.
 
Hey everyone I think enough time has passed since zama has been banned and MWP has concluded. I wanna talk about some really cool developments since then:

  1. Dark
Dark has finally reemerged as one of the best types to pick in the meta right now. It has almost everything you want, breakers, speed, hazards and hazard control. It’s one of few types that can break through most defensive cores available with little to no fail. It isn’t super bulky outside of tinglu and manibuzz but honestly you don’t need to be. AV Phys Def hoopa-U is something I really thought about while in the trenches of MWP. To help shore up hoopa’s god awful phys bulky with relying on its natural breaking power to break cores while still taking spdef attacks that are needed. Hisui-samruott is one of the most pivotal mons i’ve seen since zamazenta ban that has really taken off. Slow pivoting from mandibuzz into this gives it the room to do so much and in doing damage and setting up hazards. Fighting MU has gotten so much better for dark since they no longer have zama to blanket check everything not hoopa-U. So much so you don’t need to run sab (and for good reason it really limited what you could run and the momentum of dark altogether). I think with darkrai vs greninja debate now has a bit more merit (even tho i do think darkrai actually competes more so with hisui samruott since you should never drop greninja nowadays). There is room for other mons on dark now but hisui samruott stands out as the premier pick for the 5th slot of the dark’s everchanging cast of characters.

  1. Flying
This type has so much it wants to do but it’s often limited to having to choose what types of matches it wants to lose to. Double steel flying has fallen completely off (thank god), but what has replaced is the choice to completely give up one or more of the following: Dragon/water/ground/steel/fire/fighting/dark/ghost I really think flying is in a such an awkward state of having to pick between one or more MUs at a time to lose to. I think flying used to be one of the safest types to load, but in my humble opinion times hasn’t been kind to it. You want gyrados, you want articuno, you want moltress, you want spdef corvinknight, you want enamorus, you want gmolt, you want SOOOOO much like this type is really big backed and greedy. It’s forced to run something in the middle and that doesn’t outright win vs anything and still loses to a aforementioned types with even the slightest of changes to a single set. I think everyone was so hyperfixated on blaming gliscor for causing builder problems but flying in itself is a building problem. If you run SD gliscor your forced to run rocks on another mon or go hazardless. If you run rocks gliscor you just don’t do anything in the mirror or you have to get predictions right for the entire game to make progress with toxic. You want so many things on this type and you end up in a way, matchup fishing to hope you get something neutral. I know a lot of people rate flying quite highly and when it doesn’t face the flying killer that beats that particular build it’s amazing. But i think flying just has fallen off.

  1. Fire
Fire has one of its biggest limiters gone but it’s still an uphill battle since fire is locked to 5 slots and the last one is which matchup you wanna fish more, do you want volcarona or do you want ceru? Both are kinda ass (yes I said ceru is kinda ass you can take it up with ya mama). Fire needs to be explored quite a bit since I think right now ceru/volcarona being the best 6th slot is just kinda tragic. I think fire has potential but the constriction with the sample 5 needs to be expanded upon or do something different with the sets.

  1. Dragon
We have arrived at the biggest elephant in the room. Dragon is by far and away the best type in SV Monotype. Dragon has the most threatening defensive core in the entire SV metagame, Archaludon, Goodra-Hisui, and Gouging Fire. There is one mon that is not like the others here. That is gouging fire. I think it’s been discussed quite enough that this is one the biggest constrictions on the builder. To touch back on the previous types for a second dark AND water (i’ll make another post maybe about that) have been using multiple mons good at beating dragon because of this builder constriction. Hisui-Samruott’s biggest rise was because it can indeed threaten the goodra-hisui/Archaludon core very well. But one mon it can’t just power through without extreme risks is gouging fire. Often time you would rather just take the more safe way and toxic/foul play stall with mandibuzz. Gouging fire out of the 3 has the most set variety that can take advantage of the breakers of goodra/archaludon. Damage against it almost 99% of the time is not permanent unlike the former 2. With zamazenta gone one of the tiers ways of straight up denying all 3 of them in one singular slot is gone. Fighting isn’t gonna crumble completely vs dragon since your running the head hoodlum scrafty but the matchup is certainly not favored for fighting anymore without having to make severe concessions towards other matches (which why wouldn’t you its the best type might as well not be dead on arrival). Flying has to go over the moon and stars not to lose to gouging and the rarer kyurem (still loses to mix sets). I think one of the biggest gaslights since the start of the gouging fire debacle is that archaludon was the culprit and behind why gouging fire takes advantage of so many mons.. When damage against it is permanent and it doesn’t have good mixed bulk (also can’t reliably set up sweep). If anything archaludon synergies well with heatran with steel to keep it at bay from getting outright dog walked by gouging fire. If you feel like this feels like a conversation of broken checking broken then the best way to go about this is really getting action on gouging fire. I think dragon would be absolutely fine if it had just archlaudon and goodra-hisui being those mons are very exploitable but the fact of the matter is that gouging fire is always getting the opportunity to help take advantage of the mons that would otherwise break through this core.

  1. Water
This type was ass before zama and it continues to be completely ass after its ban. Water balance feels really bad to play with since your just either so slow/ not bulky enough/ breakers don’t break the right things. Only the extreme’s of water stall and rain feel like their worth playing. Even these are kinda fishy. If they have a super bulky or have a resist rain feels like its dead on arrival. Stall really just has the mindset of it either it runs into a stallbreaker and crumbles or it doesn’t and you get dondozo’d (there are alot of stallbreakers in this tier).

  1. Ground
Ground has been in a weird spot since zama’s ban. It’s not getting completely 6-0d by fighting like it used to (tho urshifu is still running game). Water has kinda came back out of the woodwork which unless the water used is actively trying to lose (stall not included) you don’t have much of any counterplay. Sandless ground has popped up again which is always nice to not see them ashy ass lando/hippo/exca/mamo/clod +1 comps. I think sandless ground has a lot of potential it just needs to iron out what it wants to prioritize in winning.

  1. Ghost
Will ghost finally get its flowers for being one of the best types in SV? Probably not but it deserves it. It’s one of the only true HO types that flourish from these weird balances/bulky offense types. It has the most variety of sets in a limited pool of mons of all of SV. You want spikes? Tumbleweed, you like para spam you got like 4 mons that can do that, you want to click buttons and destroy them all? It’s just perfect at just trying to win the game. It can stallbreak, it has amazing speed control and damage against their defensive pieces are not permanent (im looking at you fire). I highly encourage everyone to give it a try.
excellent post
i dont agree with water take as i still think balance water still good, especially with the double dark comp (SD Hamu + Specs Greninja is like my personal favorite right now) + being flexible with 4a water pon or shifu or even slapping alomomola as an option to slow wish pass into water's hazard weak comps. I think what i like the most as well is your like lock into 2 slots which Toxapex + Ground mon then just explore around / be creative in the remaining 4. We've seen manaphy teams, rotom comps, and at one point i been messing around with AV Prim on water haha, Water still dope I think rain sucks tho.
 
My rough response to the Ban Crowd winning.
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Okay but seriously, mono community.
Good job, we got shit banned by suspecting a bunch of stuff and now we have a tier that is much more fun and not incredibly restricting to build and play where my efforts to build are going in a solid direction and feeling comfortable. Of course there is still some mons that should be banned (Gliscor will be soon, I hope) but the tier is in a far better position than it was last year at this time.
 
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The Gouging Fire suspect and voting has officially ended and resulted in a ban. I would like to introduce a new kind of ladder challenge: Monotype Ironman!

What is an Ironman Challenge?
An Ironman Challenge in video games is essentially trying to complete a task with only 1 chance available to you. A prominent example would be in fighting games where you attempt to win with every single character in a row without losing a game. The order is usually determined by the participant.

How to take on the Monotype Ironman Challenge
You create 18 teams, one team for every type. No sample teams! The challenge is to win with every single type in the game with losing with the teams you handcrafted. 18 games won consecutively. The punishment for losing once is starting all over again, regardless of the progress you made. That risk losing all progress is what usually drives people to keep complete this challenge. I first started trying this out in Gen 8 and was able to complete the challenge once after a fair amount of attempts.
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Determining Type Order
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The most straightforward order to go in. This is the order I chose when I completed the Monotype Ironman Challenge. Starting with Bug and ending with Water. This order has a nice mix between the good and bad types along the way. On the flip side, you could go in reverse alphabetical order by starting with Water and ending with Bug.

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Create your own tier list here.

Going back to the fighting game example, tier list order is a popular order to go in. Typically starting at the bottom of the tier list and work your way up to the top. However, we don’t have an official tier list for all 18 types yet. So, in this case I advise that you create your own tier list based on what you think are the best-to-worst types listed in order like I just did. Also, just like with alphabetical order, you could go in reverse tier list order and start with the best type and finish the worst type.

Spin the Pokemon Wheel

This is probably one of, if not the most, popular order to go in for an Ironman Challenge. The link I provided will spin the wheel and once a type is selected, you can delete it from the wheel using the button that shows up. This helps prevent a type being chosen repeatedly.

Obviously, you could use !pick as well:

!pick Bug, Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Flying
, Ghost, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water

You’d have to manually take out each type after every pick, but this method of randomization is an option is available to you.

Difficulty Levels
This is generally the “easiest” difficulty level for the Monotype Ironman Challenge. You make a fresh account and start laddering. Every time you lose before completing the challenge, you make another fresh account and start laddering again. Facing low ladder can either be a breeze and have you constantly coming up with new names for an alt for resets.

This is difficulty ramps up quite fast. You would still reset if you lose before winning with every type without a loss. However, with the Hardcore Ironman difficulty, instead of making a new account for a reset, you try again at the current ELO you’re at.

If you made it to 1400 ELO on your alt, you’ll start again with the first type of your order wherever your alt is on ladder. You keep going until you can win those 18 games in a row on the same alt.

The absolute pinnacle of Ironmen. The hardest difficulty possible for the Monotype Ironman Challenge. You complete the challenge as you normally would in the order that you chose. Followed by going in the reverse of the order you have chosen.

For example, if you completed the challenge in alphabetical order, you would finish with Water. For the Ultimate Ironman difficulty, you would use Water again and proceed to work your way back up to Bug for an astounding 36 game win streak on your alt.

This isn’t an official tournament or challenge, this is a fun challenge for those that want to test their will and teambuilder against the ladder. It would be great for people to talk about their attempts, progress, and things they witnessed along their attempts. If you want to use a tag, you could use MIC. Would love to see people post their completion of the challenge.

You could post a screenshot like I did if you went 18-0. Or, if you’re doing the Hardcore Ironman difficulty, post 2 screenshots of your record after a failed attempt and seeing the +18 on the wins after completing. You could also post all the replays along the way. Whichever way you want to show off your completion of the challenge. This is an honor system essentially, no one will try to verify if you posted an honest completed run. I’ll give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

Cheers to anyone who takes on the challenge!
 
Regarding the course of action for the upcoming period after the Gouging Fire ban, the Monotype council has agreed on waiting on taking any action until near/around the start of MPL, at which point a survey will be released to gauge people's opinions on the tier. The qualified pool for this survey will likely consist of those finishing in high places in the SV Cup and ongoing Seasonals, which is another reason we've decided to wait a month or so before. Format discussion for MPL will be released earlier than usual this year, around the 13th/14th of April, with manager signups and player signups following in sequence after that.

:sv/gliscor:
Regarding my personal opinion on what action to take next, I think it's best to take a wait-and-see approach. Gliscor is viewed as the most pressing threat internally in council, but there are question marks on whether it truly warrants a suspect, and the next month should give us a better idea of its position in the tier. Opinions on Gliscor's place in the tier would be especially appreciated over the next few weeks in this thread, along with any other threats that people feel are worth addressing in this metagame.
 
Out of boredom waiting for the direct tonight and it feeling likes it been reasonably been enough time since the Gouging Ban I've decided to answer Jakhem's questions before they get asked this time. Also maybe this starts some discussion I dunno. The forum here is dead.

1. (Winners and losers) Nearly every type except for probably 2 won thanks to the Gouging Fire ban. Bug has easily been the runaway star as I've seen it a lot more on the ladder as it can easily get away with a lot more now that Gouging isn't in the tier giving it a playable Dragon MU. Steel has also benefited as it can now use Heatran a lot more than just as a Gouging Sponge as I've seen a lot more Scarf and Leftovers than Air Balloon on Steel recently. Fire while it might be still early to say possibly came out of this exchange better as while losing an incredible mon is bad for it, it did also lose one of the type's biggest checks on Dragon so it might be better now, still too early to say. Loser wise though, Dragon is obvious, losing a top defensive and offensive mon will make a lot of matchups harder such as Fairy and Ice (granted they still won't be horrid for Dragon). Ground is a surprising loss but with one of its best selling points being the incredible Dragon MU it might be harder for it now as Dragon's last team slot has started to shift more towards a second Ground immune such as Double Lati or Latios + Hydra along with Kyurem seeing a resurgence. We may even see more Walking Wake or Hydrapple which could be misrable for Ground to check.

2. (Builder) While not much of a builder myself its felt a bit freeing. Being able to run Toxapex without needing Toxic (TSpikes/Infest + Surf have been my go to options) is great for me. And I have been toying around with Fly and Steel a bit recently and with Steel, I would of never considered running Specially defensive Heatran with Leftovers if Gouging still existed as I would of just gone Air Balloon.

3. (Sixth slot) While I alluded to Dragon earlier, Dragon has since started running a lot more unique options in their last slot to replace Gouging for different matchups so I would like to focus on Fire. Fire right now is a type I haven't seen much of since the Gouging Ban but what I have seen is the return of Volcarona as a breaker along with a bit more sunless with Talonflame + breaker (Iron Moth or Arc-H usually) along with Volcanion builds. Of course this is still early for Fire and my viewings of it have been very limited so take it with the grain of salt. A bit of speculation here but I think that Sun builds might start seeing more Torkoal over Ninetales as without Gouging Sun is back to needing a choice scarfer which might be the job Cinderace starts taking so Torkoal may see a bit more usage to provide hazard control while Cinderace does Scarfer things.

Bonus questions: (Going to presume these would be the types ranks + maybe a thing on Gliscor). With Dragon I still easily believe it is a top type but its a lot closer to the other types in the metagame than it was before, Flying might be better than it right now but Dragon has been a bit more reasonable to check from my experience. Fire meanwhile I have no clue, as mentioned before Fire is a type I've seen very limited games from but I think its still going to be just okay, going to have some high highs with its breaking power but going to be a slog into any bad matchup.
I still think Gliscor needs to go and I would like to make a further post on that later, maybe with some help so it isn't just me complaining about the Poison matchup.
 
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Echoing Pengairxan's sentiment about Dragon trying to find a suitable sixth slot, I recently came up with the radical idea of replacing Gouging Fire with... literally nothing. I was able to ladder to 1650 using 5 Pokemon Dragon.

:archaludon: :latios: :dragapult: :goodra-hisui: :roaring-moon:

Clearly, concerns that Dragon would no longer be a top type without Gouging are greatly exaggerated. In fact, the fact that a core of five Pokemon is essentially self-sufficient means you can pick whatever sixth slot you want. You can run an Applin and have a better team than mine; you can imagine the results if you run a Pokemon that is actually useful.
 
Continuing the piggybacking about Dragon's viability as a top type. Like many others, I've experimented with different Dragon compositions. I will admit, I haven't strayed too far from the composition that ES posted right above this post. I've tried the above 5 + Bulky :garchomp: and also tried swapping out :roaring-moon: with :dragonite: and Sash Lead Garchomp. I was able to ladder to top 10 with both teams, had high success in Bo3s, and had some tour play success as well. I believe RoyalReloaded had a Kommo-o Dragon squad that he peaked ladder with iirc.

ULC is currently in week 6 and Dragon has been a prominent type in the tournament.
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This was the ULC win rates of the types at the end of week 2, the weekend the Gouging Fire was banned. GF Dragon went 14-11 with 1 mirror in those first two weeks. GF Fire went 4-5.

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These are the ULC win rates at this current day and time. Almost a month after the GF ban, Dragon has gone 14-6 with 1 other mirror. Fire has gone 2-0 since the GF ban. Good for that type.

Considering ULC is a elimination style tournament, this Dragon W/L post-GF Ban, on paper, is more impressive as competition dwindles down and the better leagues face each other.
With the above screenshots posted, it does need to be considered that ULC has players with a varying amount of skill. ULC has thinned out pretty good now, so in the closing weeks of ULC, how Dragon performs will really shine through.

To me, this shows me that Gouging Fire, while a powerful teammate, may not have been the main factor in Dragon's dominance. I believe the defensive core holds the type together to allow such a customizable offense. This combination of :archaludon: + :goodra-hisui: is the main factor for Dragon's dominance. If you remove one or the other, suddenly Dragon becomes a lot more balanced with the other types. Dragon teams that opt to run only one Steel/Dragon instead of both feels suboptimal. While Dragon teams now, without Gouging Fire, are still thriving.
 
The Gouging Fire suspect and voting has officially ended and resulted in a ban. I would like to introduce a new kind of ladder challenge: Monotype Ironman!

What is an Ironman Challenge?
An Ironman Challenge in video games is essentially trying to complete a task with only 1 chance available to you. A prominent example would be in fighting games where you attempt to win with every single character in a row without losing a game. The order is usually determined by the participant.

How to take on the Monotype Ironman Challenge
You create 18 teams, one team for every type. No sample teams! The challenge is to win with every single type in the game with losing with the teams you handcrafted. 18 games won consecutively. The punishment for losing once is starting all over again, regardless of the progress you made. That risk losing all progress is what usually drives people to keep complete this challenge. I first started trying this out in Gen 8 and was able to complete the challenge once after a fair amount of attempts.

Determining Type Order
View attachment 720918
The most straightforward order to go in. This is the order I chose when I completed the Monotype Ironman Challenge. Starting with Bug and ending with Water. This order has a nice mix between the good and bad types along the way. On the flip side, you could go in reverse alphabetical order by starting with Water and ending with Bug.

View attachment 720920
Create your own tier list here.

Going back to the fighting game example, tier list order is a popular order to go in. Typically starting at the bottom of the tier list and work your way up to the top. However, we don’t have an official tier list for all 18 types yet. So, in this case I advise that you create your own tier list based on what you think are the best-to-worst types listed in order like I just did. Also, just like with alphabetical order, you could go in reverse tier list order and start with the best type and finish the worst type.

Spin the Pokemon Wheel

This is probably one of, if not the most, popular order to go in for an Ironman Challenge. The link I provided will spin the wheel and once a type is selected, you can delete it from the wheel using the button that shows up. This helps prevent a type being chosen repeatedly.

Obviously, you could use !pick as well:

!pick Bug, Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Flying
, Ghost, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water

You’d have to manually take out each type after every pick, but this method of randomization is an option is available to you.

Difficulty Levels
This is generally the “easiest” difficulty level for the Monotype Ironman Challenge. You make a fresh account and start laddering. Every time you lose before completing the challenge, you make another fresh account and start laddering again. Facing low ladder can either be a breeze and have you constantly coming up with new names for an alt for resets.

This is difficulty ramps up quite fast. You would still reset if you lose before winning with every type without a loss. However, with the Hardcore Ironman difficulty, instead of making a new account for a reset, you try again at the current ELO you’re at.

If you made it to 1400 ELO on your alt, you’ll start again with the first type of your order wherever your alt is on ladder. You keep going until you can win those 18 games in a row on the same alt.

The absolute pinnacle of Ironmen. The hardest difficulty possible for the Monotype Ironman Challenge. You complete the challenge as you normally would in the order that you chose. Followed by going in the reverse of the order you have chosen.

For example, if you completed the challenge in alphabetical order, you would finish with Water. For the Ultimate Ironman difficulty, you would use Water again and proceed to work your way back up to Bug for an astounding 36 game win streak on your alt.

This isn’t an official tournament or challenge, this is a fun challenge for those that want to test their will and teambuilder against the ladder. It would be great for people to talk about their attempts, progress, and things they witnessed along their attempts. If you want to use a tag, you could use MIC. Would love to see people post their completion of the challenge.

You could post a screenshot like I did if you went 18-0. Or, if you’re doing the Hardcore Ironman difficulty, post 2 screenshots of your record after a failed attempt and seeing the +18 on the wins after completing. You could also post all the replays along the way. Whichever way you want to show off your completion of the challenge. This is an honor system essentially, no one will try to verify if you posted an honest completed run. I’ll give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

Cheers to anyone who takes on the challenge!
Just came back to mons and need a new challenge. I’ll give this a try. Looks fun.
 
Just got a small, post here on why I believe Gliscor should be banned if you are all willing to indulge me for a few words.

Gliscor is a presence in Monotype that I personally view as unhealthy and hopefully this gets some level of discussion going on why it should be removed from the tier from a admittedly very biased perspective. You all know what my favorite type is and how Gliscor affects it matchup into Flying making it horrendous, so this will be its only major mention.

Flying to most people is commonly viewed as the second best or just best type in the tier with Gliscor helping to force that along as it provides a lot for the type in a single slot. In one slot Flying gains the following: - Bulky Special Wall -Electric Immune -Status Immunity -Knock Off Absorber, all by just putting Gliscor into a team. Gliscor often then often fulfill a utility role packing Stealth Rock and generally Toxic. With its solid defensive toolkit, it can easy setup rocks then easily throw out Toxic onto everything as nearly every Toxic immunity fears Gliscor with the exceptions of the Skarmory, Corviknight, Galarian Weezing and possibly bulky Hex variants of Gholdengo and Pecharunt that might be able to Nasty Plot up and threaten it out. Knock Off can also sometimes be spotted on these sets instead of Toxic which can enable Gliscor to beat Air Balloon variants of Gholdengo and Heatran along with removing Corvknight's leftovers forcing it to use Roost much more frequently or Porygon2's Eviolite making it a much shakier check into Gliscor and its teammates.

Gliscor also generally proves to be a useful player into a majority of type matchups with the only real exceptions being Ice, a below average type, and Water, which while able to threaten Gliscor can still have opportunities for it to strike against its more passive teammates such as Toxapex and some Empoleon variants. Some types like Dragon and Dark due to how they are built do have easier times pressuring Gliscor with threats like Latios, Kyurem, Greninja, and Meowscarada, however even these types can allow Gliscor safe entry as foes like Hisuian Goodra and Ting-Lu as they don't exert much pressure to Gliscor most of the time. Other types like Ground, Flying, and Steel meanwhile can often see Gliscor just coming in on most the team and easily chip healing without much worry. Ground is of course a unique case due to the Flying Ground matchup as a whole but without Gravity the only real threat to Gliscor's safety is Mamoswine, everything else doesn't really threaten Gliscor or is checked by Skarmory so who cares. Steel of course Gliscor is good into the type weak to Ground, but it is a unique case where Skarmory generally checks Gliscor resulting in Moltres and Torn-T coming out to scare Moltres out and then pivoting straight back to Gliscor as Heatran comes in to try and eat the Fire move. And then there is Flying, if both Gliscors are running Knock Off, then the safest play for both teams is to just have both sitting on the other spamming Knock Off and Stealth Rock until one gets bored and attempts to switch to something else to speed the game along, usually to whoever switches out detriment.

And with this, Gliscor completes Flying's generally infuriating defensive core. Any attempts to remove Gliscor are easily stifled by its vast pool of viable teammates. Ice beams from the likes of Greninja and Darkrai? An afterthought with SpD Corviknight and Articuno to tank them. Triple Axel from Meowscarada or Icicle Crash from Mamoswine? More asks the likes of Skarmory and Flame Body Moltres. Ogerpons and other fast threats that could handle Gliscor such as Iron Valiant and Keldeo? Should the wind be bleak, Tornadus-T easily can blow them away. Even Water-types like Urshifu-R and Manaphy have to think twice as Zapdos can shock them back to whence they came. And while this is going on, Thunderbolts from the likes of Sandy Shock, Dragapult, and Archaludon or any status moves just give Gliscor entry back in, the reseting rocks should they have been removed along with healing just some more and spreading some more status or removing some items.

Of course this one of the ways Gliscor is ran on Flying. Swords Dance sets while less popular as of recent are still a prevalent threat within the metagame and can often help Gliscor break through bulkier teams that could handle Toxic Rock variants being able to quickly breakthrough the likes of Air Balloon Gholdengo and Sinistcha with Knock Off or Facade to break through opposing Gliscor and Zapdos. Physically defensive Gliscor has been gaining a lot of traction as of recent as Flying structures evolve which is now leading to it being a new nuisance that while less capable into special attackers can prove incredible in shutting down physical ones. Personally I also believe that SubToxic and U-Turn have a place to be explored on Flying and I personally have been using U-turn a lot on a Flying structure designed to infuriate my opponent with constant pivoting to some success. Meanwhile Ground while not really finding the space to slot it into their Sand structures has been found regularly using it on Sandless structures as a general setup sweeper or defensive utility putting setup duties onto another threat like Bulk Up Great Tusk or Ursaluna. Similarly Gliscor can prove to be an infuriating threat here but ends up being less noticed due to its higher rarity as Sand is the main structure in both tournament and ladder play which generally prefers options like Sandy Shocks, Great Tusk, and Garchomp as a sixth.

With that I thank you for hopefully reading this and hope to have convinced you on why Gliscor needs to be removed from this tier or at least gotten you to think more about it.

[Credits]
Written by:
Biased as fuck Poison main
Quality checked by:
My Boss and some Robot
Grammar checked by:
No one.

Fun Fact:
At 2AM on the 11th of July while I was writing the section of on Gliscor's ground exploits a friend of mine sent me the message "i am very good at programming" and the light in my room flickered scaring the shit out of me.
 
I am deeply for non banning Gliscor, for me it is still teambuilding (or a bit of pilot) issue or poison bias. The mon has qualities, passive healing, hazards, Knock Off, toxic, but he is facing the 3 moves syndrome as the 4th one will be Protect to activate your heal, scout, heal (or you're crazy). So even moves like U-Turn can't find a place on it. Also, just keep hitting it, the scorpion will fall as 12% healing per turn is very good but no roost means it is forced to abuse of protect in bad situations taking the risk to let you set up in front of it.

First of all, Gliscor running Hazard + Toxic means you only have one offensive move so not putting a lot of pressure and any mon with sub / that can absorb Toxic, just use it as setup fodder. That is why you are most of the time forced to play 2 offensive moves such as Earthquake and Knock Off. If you play the toxic, substitute, protect set, in theory it has a shot but you are also limiting your mon possibilities so much.
Also, Gliscor has an incredible physical base stat being 75 HP / 125 Def, obviously if you invest in it, it will be awful to kill on this side. Every time in mono room on PS, Pengairxan is bringing the fact that Ice Punch non stabbed from Valiant is only a 2HKO on physical variant. Yes, you are facing a defensive wall. (I've calced an imaginary non STAB, special ice move from special Valiant on a Gliscor with Def and SpDef inversed. No surprise, the damages are the same it's a roll to kill 93%-111% so a bit more than 50% on non invested and 2HKO on invested variants).

If you play SD, you're generally still invested in one defense or maybe in speed meaning you're stuck with a raw 95 base attack. With the powercreep and IVs/EVs system, you won't break a lot of things before setting up 2 Swords Dance then you realize also you want Earthquake and Knock Off but Facade allows to break easily Weezing-G avoiding potential confusions and flying.

I do not think Dark has issue with Gliscor because as you mentionned even if Tinglu is an invitation, you can Ruination / Whirlwind the scorpion once you've drop your SR so next time Greninja / Meowscarada will be able to click. What I am seeing Pengairxan blaming is more the good defensive core in fat flying, it's not about Gliscor.
For what I have seen, water and ice don't care, fighting is more comfortable with Urshifu-R that after 1SD Sstrike, Aqua Jet and Ice punch/spinner according to item played breaks flying core alone, Dragon has Latios that really benefits from expert belt to not have to chose between trying to read oppo's mind by clicking bolt or beam and in more bulky comp Hydreigon Substitute (just do not hard on a potential toxic), Ghost is just toying with flying between Spectrier and Gholdengo, Fairy is kinda mid so you can see it there too most of the time but it is not only Gliscor fault it is the flying fat core and especially if there is a Skarm in the back, Ground against flying is a bit messy so Gliscor just comes to add another issue as it's easy to force Mamo to come over and over taking hazards + u-turn, Steel it really depends of Ghold and Treads and Crown in some case, but you could break it.


For me, Gliscor being here prevents a very passive and poison oriented metagame. Even now, people are realizing you can quite spam this type and abuse of regecore and spread status. Gliscor is here to knock off the Boots and drop 1 hazard. If you have a SD set, it's already over tho.
Banning Gliscor is probably the last wall before banning fun in gen9, current meta is imperfect, I see things as problematic but not as banworthy enough and Gliscor is not on top.


PS : Gliscor is happy, Gliscor is smiling at you, do not be fooled by OMs like OU that play with terastal.
 
Chiming into this discussion for the first time in a while to speak on behalf of the flying scorpion bat thing.

:sv/gliscor:


Just to give some gradual input: This thing does the same thing it's done for the past however many generations just per generation has evolved from flat out offense, to swords dance setup, to now the bulky variant of either Spdef SD 2a Protect or Sub + Toxic + Protect + EQ/Koff. Is it annoying? Flat out yes it is. Very much so. But I personally don't think it constitutes a ban. It's main goal is to spread status or remove items for hazards to chip. A very easier bulky ignoramus if you will. How do you deal with it? Well..

Honestly it's as easy as bringing something with optimal Ice coverage and baiting the Protect turns. Each and every type optimally has some form of coverage for it. It isn't like you're only building a mon solely to cover the likes of Gliscor either. Throughough the entirety of Monotype there have been many various teams brought with many forms of coverage. Steel, arguably the most foul of types back in Gen 7, people sought to bring something to check it in one way shape or another. It's just how you structure your team. That is generally what Monotype is predominantly about. Structuring a team to go against the meta high heads.


And unfortunately, Gliscor is one of them. Providing a bulky core to Flying teams. Though the bigger picture is, people also run Double Steel, Corv + Articuno + Gliscor w/ Protect, Scarf Lando + Gliscor, etc. These cores lack a lot vs BoltBeam oriented teams in however you provide.


Take my opinions with a grain of salt but personally I don't see it as much of a constituted ban come a suspect for it. It does the same exact thing it's always been programmed to do. Either setup, which I mean you can get rid of it easier. Or just spread status, remove hazards, and put up Rock or Spikes.
 
Hello everyone. Here are the results of the community type VR.

Number of respondents: 19
Number qualified: 16

Qualified
Code:
Flying    1.93
Dragon    2.13
Steel    2.73
Water    5.07
Fighting    5.53
Ground    5.73
Dark    6.33
Fairy    8.13
Ghost    8.87
Fire    10.87
Poison    11.07
Normal    11.27
Bug    12.40
Psychic    13.93
Ice    15.47
Grass    15.93
Rock    16.40
Electric    17.20
1745096525843.png


Overall
Code:
Dragon    1.89
Steel    2.50
Flying    2.67
Water    4.89
Fighting    5.61
Ground    5.89
Dark    6.00
Fairy    7.50
Ghost    8.11
Fire    10.11
Poison    10.11
Normal    10.56
Bug    11.83
Psychic    13.00
Grass    14.61
Ice    14.89
Rock    15.17
Electric    16.17
1745096635803.png
 
The Gouging Fire suspect and voting has officially ended and resulted in a ban. I would like to introduce a new kind of ladder challenge: Monotype Ironman!

What is an Ironman Challenge?
An Ironman Challenge in video games is essentially trying to complete a task with only 1 chance available to you. A prominent example would be in fighting games where you attempt to win with every single character in a row without losing a game. The order is usually determined by the participant.

How to take on the Monotype Ironman Challenge
You create 18 teams, one team for every type. No sample teams! The challenge is to win with every single type in the game with losing with the teams you handcrafted. 18 games won consecutively. The punishment for losing once is starting all over again, regardless of the progress you made. That risk losing all progress is what usually drives people to keep complete this challenge. I first started trying this out in Gen 8 and was able to complete the challenge once after a fair amount of attempts.

Determining Type Order
View attachment 720918
The most straightforward order to go in. This is the order I chose when I completed the Monotype Ironman Challenge. Starting with Bug and ending with Water. This order has a nice mix between the good and bad types along the way. On the flip side, you could go in reverse alphabetical order by starting with Water and ending with Bug.

View attachment 720920
Create your own tier list here.

Going back to the fighting game example, tier list order is a popular order to go in. Typically starting at the bottom of the tier list and work your way up to the top. However, we don’t have an official tier list for all 18 types yet. So, in this case I advise that you create your own tier list based on what you think are the best-to-worst types listed in order like I just did. Also, just like with alphabetical order, you could go in reverse tier list order and start with the best type and finish the worst type.

Spin the Pokemon Wheel

This is probably one of, if not the most, popular order to go in for an Ironman Challenge. The link I provided will spin the wheel and once a type is selected, you can delete it from the wheel using the button that shows up. This helps prevent a type being chosen repeatedly.

Obviously, you could use !pick as well:

!pick Bug, Dark, Dragon, Electric, Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Flying
, Ghost, Grass, Ground, Ice, Normal, Poison, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water

You’d have to manually take out each type after every pick, but this method of randomization is an option is available to you.

Difficulty Levels
This is generally the “easiest” difficulty level for the Monotype Ironman Challenge. You make a fresh account and start laddering. Every time you lose before completing the challenge, you make another fresh account and start laddering again. Facing low ladder can either be a breeze and have you constantly coming up with new names for an alt for resets.

This is difficulty ramps up quite fast. You would still reset if you lose before winning with every type without a loss. However, with the Hardcore Ironman difficulty, instead of making a new account for a reset, you try again at the current ELO you’re at.

If you made it to 1400 ELO on your alt, you’ll start again with the first type of your order wherever your alt is on ladder. You keep going until you can win those 18 games in a row on the same alt.

The absolute pinnacle of Ironmen. The hardest difficulty possible for the Monotype Ironman Challenge. You complete the challenge as you normally would in the order that you chose. Followed by going in the reverse of the order you have chosen.

For example, if you completed the challenge in alphabetical order, you would finish with Water. For the Ultimate Ironman difficulty, you would use Water again and proceed to work your way back up to Bug for an astounding 36 game win streak on your alt.

This isn’t an official tournament or challenge, this is a fun challenge for those that want to test their will and teambuilder against the ladder. It would be great for people to talk about their attempts, progress, and things they witnessed along their attempts. If you want to use a tag, you could use MIC. Would love to see people post their completion of the challenge.

You could post a screenshot like I did if you went 18-0. Or, if you’re doing the Hardcore Ironman difficulty, post 2 screenshots of your record after a failed attempt and seeing the +18 on the wins after completing. You could also post all the replays along the way. Whichever way you want to show off your completion of the challenge. This is an honor system essentially, no one will try to verify if you posted an honest completed run. I’ll give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

Cheers to anyone who takes on the challenge!
Those that may want to try the Monotype Ironman Challenge now have the community Type VR to go off of. Thank you to Ethereal Sword for the rankings.
 
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