Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

Thunder wave is a funny move

:cobalion:
Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head/Stealth Rock/ Iron Defense
- Thunder Wave/Body Slam
- Protect
- Body Press
With para move + protect, cobalion can fish for full paralysis to extract as much healing from its leftovers as possible, thunder wave is generally the best option but body slam can be run for the singular purpose of paralysing ground types. Body press is stab that ohkos gambit and does damage off the stat you invest in, your fourth move is customisable, iron head is secondary stab which is nice (also has a 30% flinch chance :swole:) whilst stealth rock is immeasurable utility and if you want, you can iron press to take advantage of the 25% chance of your opponent doing nothing

Another benefit of thunder wave (and body slam I guess…) is that it lowers speed, so it pesters all those speedsters looking to switch into cob and kill it which benefits its slower teammates.
 
June Heat said:
Tera Blast is a part of Tera, but not the mechanic as a whole. I really don’t see why we couldn’t judge them separately. Also opportunity cost matters very little when the answer is almost always “yes, it is worth it.” Yes I’m aware of the original arguments. I was around during original Tera suspect. Though those past decision shouldn’t mean we can’t move forward. If an element of Tera is breaking mons than it should be looked at regardless of the past.

I do think the prospect of having to resuspect like 5 mons is… bad. I would hope the community could agree that Espathra, Gouging Fire, and Roaring Moon should remain Uber, but that’s more likely a dream than reality. Volcarona could at least add value to the tier, and Regeleki is not a Pokemon in OU without TB.
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You're a good poster forsure, I don't want our back and forth to clog up the forum so we can just agree to disagree. At one point I was thinking the same, that we can separate TB from Tera; but after fully accepting that Tera isn't going anywhere I changed my mind. No TB just means a purely defensive Tera meta. Or at least way more heavily skewed in that direction. If my Moth can't TB Ground the Garg, then Garg just got a lot better. I don't think we need mons like Garg to have better MUs. Mons like Raging Bolt can still Tera Fairy, but now they still can't really break Ting-Lu. It may seem like a minor thing, but these implications do go deep.

The other situation we have is your stance on Volc. That's a 15 page argument on this forum instantly. I don't think it would add anything, and never want it back even w/o TB. You don't want Gouging back., but some ppl will say it's fine. Another rabbit hole of discourse and arguments- speculation and tantrums. The only way to truly find out and make everyone happy is to give all those mons a fair chance, heavily impacting the meta. Also, arguments like, "Gouge would be fine if Moon was still here to Taunt it" or whatever. Who gets in first? Do we do them all at once? It's a logistical nightmare. I think the OU council and frankly us as players have been through enough. The only tool we have to shape the meta is banning/suspecting the mons we do still have left.
 
Welcome to mars said:
Thunder wave is a funny move

:cobalion:
Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head/Stealth Rock/ Iron Defense
- Thunder Wave/Body Slam
- Protect
- Body Press
With para move + protect, cobalion can fish for full paralysis to extract as much healing from its leftovers as possible, thunder wave is generally the best option but body slam can be run for the singular purpose of paralysing ground types. Body press is stab that ohkos gambit and does damage off the stat you invest in, your fourth move is customisable, iron head is secondary stab which is nice (also has a 30% flinch chance :swole:) whilst stealth rock is immeasurable utility and if you want, you can iron press to take advantage of the 25% chance of your opponent doing nothing

Another benefit of thunder wave (and body slam I guess…) is that it lowers speed, so it pesters all those speedsters looking to switch into cob and kill it which benefits its slower teammates.
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Hello, my name is Gholdengo and I dont allow fun.
 
I spent more than the last previous year posting about Tera blast just for people to say that we can't do tera blast sus NOW because it might undo things done in the last year ;___; haha no that's totally expected and probably even what some people's goal has been. I've faded away and will likely just be done posting for this gen. Unless something exciting happens in this moment.

Genuine question though.. do you guys not get seriously bored of playing this same game with little changes over years? The most exciting times are after DLC and new gens.

I get that the goal of our relatively luck based game is to make it as competitive as possible but geez I just wish we moved faster sometimes.

The most exciting thing about Champions would be the different seasons and slow release of new mons. I wish we could have at least more unofficial tournaments with some variation.

Idk maybe this just me. I know we're playing a free game with like pixels and text but new DLC makes it feel as fresh and fun as a new Fortnite season for example. I'd like to feel that more often.

I just don't want people worshipping the progress made so much they're scared to embrace banning an objectively cheesey mechanic which would make the game LIT

Respectfully

LoseToRU? said:
TB just means a purely defensive Tera meta. Or at least way more heavily skewed in that direction. If my Moth can't TB Ground the Garg, then Garg just got a lot better. I don't think we need mons like Garg to have better MUs. Mons like Raging Bolt can still Tera Fairy, but now they still can't really break Ting-Lu. It may seem like a minor thing, but these implications do go deep.
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Banning ting lu or garg under those circumstances wouldn't be so terrible. Some people want ting lu gone now.
 
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LoseToRU? said:
You're a good poster forsure, I don't want our back and forth to clog up the forum so we can just agree to disagree. At one point I was thinking the same, that we can separate TB from Tera; but after fully accepting that Tera isn't going anywhere I changed my mind. No TB just means a purely defensive Tera meta. Or at least way more heavily skewed in that direction. If my Moth can't TB Ground the Garg, then Garg just got a lot better. I don't think we need mons like Garg to have better MUs. Mons like Raging Bolt can still Tera Fairy, but now they still can't really break Ting-Lu. It may seem like a minor thing, but these implications do go deep.
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I know you were trying to wrap up the conversation, but the thing that is missing is how Tera itself is more inherently offensive than defensive as a mechanic. Defensive Tera is still the only part of Tera that isactually used for defense, and even then, setup sweepers can use it to brute force an extra setup turn.

The rest is all offense. Double STAB is purely offensive. Extra STAB on coverage moves is offensive even without Tera Blast. A TB ban just changes the amount of potential coverage moves mons have access to. That wouldn't invalidate wallbreaking or anything else about the Tera mechanic that is used for offense. I don't think the metagame would be nearly as defensively slanted as you suggested. It would just be less matchup fishy.
LoseToRU? said:
The other situation we have is your stance on Volc. That's a 15 page argument on this forum instantly. I don't think it would add anything, and never want it back even w/o TB. You don't want Gouging back., but some ppl will say it's fine. Another rabbit hole of discourse and arguments- speculation and tantrums. The only way to truly find out and make everyone happy is to give all those mons a fair chance, heavily impacting the meta. Also, arguments like, "Gouge would be fine if Moon was still here to Taunt it" or whatever. Who gets in first? Do we do them all at once? It's a logistical nightmare. I think the OU council and frankly us as players have been through enough. The only tool we have to shape the meta is banning/suspecting the mons we do still have left.
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Although I agree with you on Volc staying banned, I really don't think it's that difficult to parse it out.

1. If they are really egragious like Flutter Mane, Iron Bundle, and Chi-Yu, they stay banned.

This is pretty straightforward so I won't go into much detail. Annihilape stays banned because Rage Fist. Archaludon has Stamina and never relied on TB, so a TB ban doesn't change its status. Etc.

2. If they are Quiver Dance, Dragon Dance, or Espathra with Speed Boost, they stay banned.

The logic for keeping all of these setup sweepers in Ubers is fairly straightforward: They can abuse Tera to brute force an extra setup turn of speed + power setup. Double Dance is fine because because you take an extra turn and move slot to do it. Single turn speed + power setup moves are inherently more borderline in a Tera metagame.

If these mons were already broken with TB, Tera's remaining mechanics can still be abused by these setup sweepers and likely keep them over the edge. Even more so with those with Booster Energy and, say, Dragon Dance like Gouging Fire and Roaring Moon. (Note I'm not saying BE mons in general are broken. Just the combination of BE + DD, or QD if that existed, because it further accelerates the setup sweeper by another turn.)

Either way, most of these mons have good enough STABS and/or coverage moves where a Tera Blast ban really shouldn't prohibit them too much. Following these two rules would mean most current bans would stay banned except Regieleki, Terapagos, and possibly Palafin. Off the top of my head, I can't really think of any others.
 
peepeepoopoo722 said:
I spent more than the last previous year posting about Tera blast just for people to say that we can't do tera blast sus NOW because it might undo things done in the last year ;___; haha no that's totally expected and probably even what some people's goal has been. I've faded away and will likely just be done posting for this gen. Unless something exciting happens in this moment.

Genuine question though.. do you guys not get seriously bored of playing this same game with little changes over years? The most exciting times are after DLC and new gens.

I get that the goal of our relatively luck based game is to make it as competitive as possible but geez I just wish we moved faster sometimes.

The most exciting thing about Champions would be the different seasons and slow release of new mons. I wish we could have at least more unofficial tournaments with some variation.

Idk maybe this just me. I know we're playing a free game with like pixels and text but new DLC makes it feel as fresh and fun as a new Fortnite season for example. I'd like to feel that more often.

I just don't want people worshipping the progress made so much they're scared to embrace banning an objectively cheesey mechanic which would make the game LIT

Respectfully


Banning ting lu or garg under those circumstances wouldn't be so terrible. Some people want ting lu gone now.
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This gen, I feel there is a lot of cool new shit people are constantly expirementing with every month, whether it be entirely new Pokémon or exploring new options on standard Pokémon to do some new shit. I dont think many prior gens were exactly this dynamic in the array of options one has at their fingertips, aside from maybe gen 7 / 8.
 
Tera Blast makes the game more cheesy in a metagame which is almost only cheese. It just makes offensive mon too broken. Kyurem and Dnite are in the survey only because sometimes (not always) they can put terablast on their moveset to bypass their common checks. What is the goal of tbuilding when their is a tool that can bypass everything you try. It's also the reason of why a lot of pokemon were getting banned into Uber.
A good player can figure out what is the tera of an opposing mon but playing around tera blast is just stupid, it creates 50/50 that only favour the one with the Tera.
It's a move that can be click without any thinking no matter the situation. Imagine playing baloon ghold and you face a Tera fire kyurem instead of ground. Well that's just bad luck. Hate this move and it would make the tier healthier if this tool is ban.
 
peepeepoopoo722 said:
Genuine question though.. do you guys not get seriously bored of playing this same game with little changes over years? The most exciting times are after DLC and new gens.

Banning ting lu or garg under those circumstances wouldn't be so terrible. Some people want ting lu gone now.
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Without tera the game would be far more boring. And banning Ting Lu under any circumstances would be good for the meta, it is extremely unhealthy. Everyone should consider writing in Ting and Pecharunt on the survey.
 
Pecharunt is a very healthy metagame presence that isn't a problem. Being hard to 2HKO outside of supereffective STAB attacks and strong special attacks doesn't make it unhealthy. Blissey was also really hard for many special attackers to beat back in old generations, and having something that can tank hits for days on the physical side (not to the same extent Blissey could back in the day) while having a strong pivoting move is not necessarily unwelcome due to how high the powerlevel of SV OU is.

Although I can see a case for Ting-Lu being unhealthy due to its unprecedented bulk for OU (effectively 155/125/123 bulk, which surpasses that of Giratina) and how easily it makes progress with Ruination, it has some notable downsides like having a base typing weak to six attacking types, most of which are solid attacking types, such as Water, Ice, Fighting, and Fairy, having no reliable recovery, and the potential for Ruination to be abused by non-grounded Pokemon. Ting-Lu is definitely a threatening win condition in its own right due to its unique traits, but I don't know if I'd call it "extremely" unhealthy.
 
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Goobing Fire said:
Without tera the game would be far more boring. And banning Ting Lu under any circumstances would be good for the meta, it is extremely unhealthy. Everyone should consider writing in Ting and Pecharunt on the survey.
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Bro, without those two the meta would be unplayable. The power levels of Mons is so high this Gen that you need giant walls like Ting-Lu and Pecharunt out of necessity
 
Going off tangent a bit, I feel that there is a Pokémon that has gone unexplored in the metagame:

:SV/Quaquaval:
Quaquaval is known for mostly running cheese SD sets with 50 different coverage moves, items, and Tera types making it annoying to respond to. These sets are pretty good, but I feel its ability to act as a boots Generalist / Urshifu LARP is going underutilized.

As a boots Pokemon, it has a lot of valuable offensive tools - Its got a great defensive typing against Weavile and Kingambit, reliable recovery in Roost, pairs well with Gking FSight offensively, has miscellaneous other utility options in Rapid Spin, Encore, and U-Turn, and it is a Knock Off User that does decent damage to many of of the absorbers like Corviknight or Gliscor with its main STAB. It can also potentially snowball in the late game with Aqua Step if you get it in on the right Pokemon though this can be a bit hard to setup. I'd say Knock Off and its access to recovery are big advantages over its main competition like Keldeo, which can struggle to make progress in certain MUs. I've used this set with GKing and its performed pretty well from my limited experience. I think other players could push it to the next level though with further optimizations.

Quaquaval @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Flexible
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Aqua Step
- Close Combat
- Knock Off / Triple Axel
- Roost / U-Turn / Encore / Rapid Spin

The other idea I had for Quaquaval was running a Scarf set, similar to Urshifu-RS last generation. This is a set that I haven't expeiremented much with, and might seem odd to run, given Quaquaval's weaker offensive spread compared to Urshifu. However, something to keep in mind is that Urshifu has a lot more roadblocks last gen that simply don't exist. Pokemon that completely walled Urshifu like Slowbro, Toxapex, and Buzzwole either have been snapped away or are significantly weaker in SV OU. There is still that 50 / 50 Dilemma in some MUs such as Ogerpon-W + Dragpult cores or Raging Bolt + Slowking-G for example, but the general amount of them is a bit lower and Quaquaval still has strong tools to force progress, such as Knock Off, which can make it easier to stick some damage onto the general boots pivot mons or Slowking-G. And I also beleive there is a bit more surprise factor for such a set.

As a scarfer itself, Quaquaval's main advantage is having the typical OP Scarf moves in Knock Off / U-turn, outspeeding and KOing key threats like Cinderace, Darkrai, Kyurem, Ogerpon-Wellspring, and Dragapult that would typically outspeed it, and having Moxie to potentially snowball in the late game. Surprise factor also can ease up some of the tougher MUs against mons like Ogerpon-W. Surprise factor is also pretty key in a lot of its general MUs.

Quaquaval @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Flexible
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wave Crash
- Knock Off / Triple Axel
- U-turn
- Close Combat

I'm kinda stirring the pot with this mon, since I feel it hasn't been looked into much despite having a lot of unique and valuable qualities for the metagame. I feel it could be so much more than just your average veil cheeser if the playerbase checked it out.
 
Avira said:
Although I can see a case for Ting-Lu being unhealthy due to its unprecedented bulk for OU (effectively 155/125/123 bulk, which surpasses that of Giratina) and how easily it makes progress with Ruination, it has some notable downsides like having a base typing weak to six attacking types, most of which are solid attacking types, such as Water, Ice, Fighting, and Fairy, having no reliable recovery, and the potential for Ruination to be abused by non-grounded Pokemon. Ting-Lu is definitely a threatening win condition in its own right due to its unique traits, but I don't know if I'd call it "extremely" unhealthy.
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Ting-Lu being weak to anything is basically meaningless given that it's not only impossible to OKO but extremely difficult to 2KO and can nearly always KO something that stays in on it. Ruination being able to be "abused" is a moot point, taking something down to half health for free is always useful.

252 SpA Darkrai Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 170-200 (33 - 38.9%) -- 8.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 127-151 (45.1 - 53.7%) -- 36.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 168-198 (32.6 - 38.5%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ting-Lu Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 246-290 (78 - 92%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(if it's using Air Balloon, it still wins after using Ruination)

It is just not healthy for a defensive Pokemon to be able to make progress like this. Its stats are basically flawless and it can make progress on basically anything that isn't named Gliscor (which is unhealthy in its own right). There is literally no safe switch into Ting-Lu because of the understated threat of Ruination against ungrounded Pokemon.
 
Surprised how low everything scored on the survey. Would think at least one of the options would hit a 4 at least. Guess it goes to show that people are relatively content with the way things are in SV OU. Could also be people are waiting for WCOP before they try, and strive for change. Which makes sense also. Don't want to shake the meta drastically before a big tournament. All in all I'm shocked/disappointed with the results, but I'll view it as the Council's work finally paying off in creating a stable and fun OU.
 
Not surprised at the low Tera Blast score again, mildly surprised at the large gap between qualified and general playerbase scores for enjoyment and balance, but I suppose that’s been a trend.

What really surprised me was the high amounts of Darkrai and Garganacl write-ins, neither of which I feel like are unhealthy right now. What does everyone think of them?
 
Slightly suprised tera blast is so low but it makes sense. The increase in the competitiveness and enjoyment scores is also well deserved in my opinion, the metagame has stabilized quite a lot especially with the roaring moon ban (also, are people seriously mentioning it for a retest when it literally just got banned LMAO)

I don’t think any of those scores are high enough to warrant a suspect, although if you wanna test something in the tier kyurem probably makes the most sense.

However, right now in my eyes the best course of action is a solgaleo retest.

I know generally discussion on retests should be kept to a minimum on this thread, but I think it’s worth mentioning since it seems to get fairly consistent support every survey. Obviously its defensive contributions would be a general positive for the tier in my opinion, and with it being unable to boost outside of calm mind sets I have trouble believing it will be overwhelming. Since it can’t boost effectively it will struggle to brute force its way past the many OU staples it struggles aganist such as zapdos, corviknight, alomomola, moltres, and more. Its attack is quite impressive at 137, but It’s nothing particularly outstanding, especially in gen 9. Don’t get me wrong if it drops it will be outstanding (much like zamazenta, who is excellent for its stabilizing prescence without being broken.) I of course could be wrong tho, so I’m interested to hear your thoughts. Maybe we could even hold a test tournament with it allowed to see what a OU metagame with solgaleo would look like.
 
i think overall there really isn't a significant consensus around any one thing being particularly broken, hence the scores being overall fairly low

it feels like everyone has their own issues with 1-2 specific things but it's pretty dependent on what you play/how you view the metagame so there isn't really any clear suspect candidates outside of rem— which even then still scored pretty low all things considered
 
Darkrai I feel like is insanely ridiculous to have removed. Not only are there multiple walls that can readily handle Darkrai, but its presence feels infinitely more beneficial due to the current meta and its access to wisp along with good speed tier. I'd sooner see Ogerpon or Gliscor gone if we had to remove any two, and Garg i've seen only a handful of times recently. At least in the 1700's anyways
 
Rekka's Backend said:
Darkrai I feel like is insanely ridiculous to have removed. Not only are there multiple walls that can readily handle Darkrai, but its presence feels infinitely more beneficial due to the current meta and its access to wisp along with good speed tier. I'd sooner see Ogerpon or Gliscor gone if we had to remove any two, and Garg i've seen only a handful of times recently. At least in the 1700's anyways
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But think of which ban will help our goat, Meowscarada, the most. Ogerpon-W and Gliscor are fodder for our favorite cat, but Darkrai / Weavile are its main struggle.

If we want our purrfect pivot to be viewed as the top tier it rightfully is, it is our moral imperative to yeet Darkrai and Weavile out of the tier.
 
I'm honestly looking at Solgaleo, it doesn't even seem that good. It's coverage is vast but also strangely lacking and it's STAB coverage is especially bad. Sunsteel strike bounces off the physical walls of the tier in Gliscor, Mola, Corv, Moltres, and Zapdos (though it actually does a fair bit to Lando bc of Full Metal Body) and it needs a lot of coverage to hit everything. CC for Gambit and Lu; Wild Charge for Corv, Mola, and Moltres; Zen/Psy move for Zama, Tusk, and Pech; EQ or Fire move for Ghold, etc. It sounds scary but also really prediction reliant. And all that coverage goes away if you want Knock Off, Morning Sun, or Teleport. It just seems like a worse Iron Crown in terms of offensive potential.

imo there's no harm in trying it, let's have a little fun with it. worst case scenario, we get a 2 week meta with Solgaleo trashing the tier and then it's gone. I'm starting to be swayed into thinking Solgaleo is probably fine. we tried Palafin lol, it's hard to believe Solgaleo is any worse than Bulk Up Wave Crash
 
pixelpenguin said:
I'm honestly looking at Solgaleo, it doesn't even seem that good. It's coverage is vast but also strangely lacking and it's STAB coverage is especially bad. Sunsteel strike bounces off the physical walls of the tier in Gliscor, Mola, Corv, Moltres, and Zapdos (though it actually does a fair bit to Lando bc of Full Metal Body) and it needs a lot of coverage to hit everything. CC for Gambit and Lu; Wild Charge for Corv, Mola, and Moltres; Zen/Psy move for Zama, Tusk, and Pech; EQ or Fire move for Ghold, etc. It sounds scary but also really prediction reliant. And all that coverage goes away if you want Knock Off, Morning Sun, or Teleport. It just seems like a worse Iron Crown in terms of offensive potential.

imo there's no harm in trying it, let's have a little fun with it. worst case scenario, we get a 2 week meta with Solgaleo trashing the tier and then it's gone. I'm starting to be swayed into thinking Solgaleo is probably fine. we tried Palafin lol, it's hard to believe Solgaleo is any worse than Bulk Up Wave Crash
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This is quite limited thinking when you consider Solgaleo has a perfectly usable 113 Special Attack stat, and a good Special movepool to boot. Pecharunt and Zama hate Psychic. Mola, Corv, and Moltres dislike Thunderbolt more so than Wild Charge. When I see Solgaleo in the tier is as a mixed attacker something like: SunsteelS/Psychic/Thunderbolt/CC.
 
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