Announcement Trap Queen - Gothita Suspect Test

[Hacker]

"She my trap queen, let her hit the bando"


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The LC Council has decided to suspect test Gothita.

Gothita has always been a controversial Pokemon in LC, with it being banned from Gens 7 and 8 due to Shadow Tag. In modern generations, Shadow Tag is largely considered uncompetitive and it can be particularly effective here due to how frail the Pokemon are. Its natural strong offensive typing vs staples of the tier like Mienfoo, Foongus, and Mareanie make its job rather simple and easy to do. These traits have made it be on people's radar for a while this gen, particularly due to how effective Gothita has been in the past. Additionally, people have recently started opting to utilize more of Gothita's toolkit which has lead to this suspect. Substitute Calm Mind with Salac Berry Tera Steel has recently seen an uptake of usage to take advantage of Foongus and potentially take away games on the spot. You have to dedicate a lot of resources both in battle and in game to make sure it does not quickly take over the pace of the match.

This is not to say that Gothita is a flawless Pokemon. Tera is a particularly effective tool for Gothita to utilize itself in many situations. However, opposing Tera can allow opponents the oppurtunity to get rid of their weakness to Gothita. However, this often is an acceptable trade for the Gothita user as it removes the option of Tera for the opponent. Alternatively, people could opt out of using a different fighting resist than Foongus to not be at risk of losing to the potent sweeper set while still being vulnerable to the standard Choice Scarf set. Would any of these adaptations be healthy or too warping for the meta? The goal of this thread is to find out. We encourage anyone who has an opinion to participate in the discussion and meet the requirements to vote!

...

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in LC before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played LC before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, ghost, tazz, or a staff member.
• If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me/tazz/ghost or post here!

NEW​

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800

The period to get the suspect requirements will be Saturday,<t:1750564740:f> with voting for the suspect going up after. Have fun laddering!

 

[Éric]

Hi! As the only councilman who doesn't want Gothita to be banned, I think I should make a post about it.
In the current metagame, Gothita has two main sets: Choice Scarf and Salac Berry. I'll analyze my opinion on each, and then what do they, in conjuction, bring to the tier/why it's not a Pokémon that we need to ban.

on scarf goth

this is obviously not a broken Pokémon currently, to the point where people consider it bad and it's nowhere near close to the reasoning of this suspect. But, for the people who don't know, I'll explain. Choice Scarf Gothita is a Pokémon that attempts to trap Foongus/Mareanie to help Mienfoo, and also traps Mienfoo itself. It can help trapping Mudbray or Chinchou too, maybe even Vullaby. However, the reason it's not held to a really high standard is that it's a big opportunity cost. If you are running a Choice scarf Gothita, with how constricted teambuilding is, chances are it's your fastest Pokémon. Gothita, while great at breaking balance pieces, is not the best speed control, because it lacks power and coverage for it, while losing to the faster scarfers. Moreover, every time you trap a Pokémon, you are making a very difficult decision, because every click of Psychic is an opportunity for Vullaby/Stunky to hit the field and do massive damage, and sometimes that trade won't be in your favor. Also, it loses to teras from its main targets constantly.

on salac goth

now this is the funny one. It has surfaced not that long ago, and that's why I think we are having this bit of overreaction. For those of you who don't know, we are talking about tera Steel, Calm Mind, Stored Power, Substitute, Tera Blast Gothita with Salac Berry. The sole purpose of this Pokémon is to trap a single opposing Pokémon: Foongus. This is where we encounter the first problem: this is absolutely a matchup fish, another way of saying if there's no Foongus, you are playing 5v6 (which is beyond terrible). Even funnier, it is not guaranteed to win the Foongus matchup (tho heavily in its favor), as it loses to Tera Ghost Foongus, faster scarfers like Mienfoo/Growlithe, priority from Sucker Punch Diglett/Ice Shard Sandshrew and Fake Out. So yes, at a glance this set is like a guaranteed fear of Foongus teams, but in reality it is not much broken than the very similar matchup fish we saw last generation: Salac Magnemite. This set can turn games around it, as if you have a Foongus you need to be prepared for the possibility. But here's the thing: the times this set wins are only when the players don't expect it, like in its debut (obviously), which I'm sure is linked somewhere here. However, as players are aware of the possibility, they come prepared to it, which is not that hard considering all the counterplay listed is usually ran in a normal team regardless. It can be incredibly devastating if it actually gets pulled off, but will you? Most of the times, you won't. Also, as a quick note, it makes teambuilding really awkward, as you need a lot of support from the likes of Eject Button Elekid to set it up properly, leaving very little room to check other common threats

on the combination of both

even tho the scarf set is the one I said is worse, it actually is the most common. And that's for a reason: it's consistent. You, the user, expect what it will do, and it does do it. The fish set is nothing but a fish, you either win with it or you don't, and it's relatively easy to spot the set on team preview, depending on the speed of the team, the targets they use to trap (or the decisions of not trapping something that you can spot). The counterplay to both is pretty basic and mostly overlaps and, I can't stress this enough, neither set wins consistently.
In addition to that, the tier does benefit from Gothita. Yes, the sporadic Salac Gothita sweep is funny and might feel unfair, but overall Gothita in SV LC acts as a very fair revenge killer, keeping in check the maybe otherwise broken Mienfoo and Foongus, while not being overbearing itself (the scarf one). The addition of the Salac one, in my opinion, acts as a bit of a skill check, given its devastating if you don't know how to handle, but actually easy to spot, act accordingly, and stop. I haven't even mentioned yet how you can simply avoid getting trapped with your Foongus if you so wish.

All in all, neither set wins consistently enough for me to consider them broken even in conjuction, and they do both serve a purpose in the metagame that is hard to replicate. So, if i get reqs, i will be voting DO NOT BAN.

 

[Hacker]

on scarf goth

i disagee-ish here. Goth's impact on gameplay is pretty polarizing. these replays are all pretty old bc this set admitedly doesnt get much use nowadays. but when i was more prolific about disliking scarf Goth's impact on the metagame I viewed some of its interactions as totally bogus and pure coinflipping at best.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-792902 - Its impact on gameplay is most straightforward here as Mareanie was just eliminated from the game turn 3. Team is definently inherently weak to Goth because of no Vullaby but long-term Mareanie teams always end up like this and have no room to fight back. You can initially go Vullaby on a U-Turn but with rocks chip and other various factors it gets weakened early and you end up in a position where your only answer to Mienfoo is Mareanie anyways. This is approaching a gross oversimplificationon my end but whenever I am playing Mareanie and I run into a Goth, I feel like the game is almost near over turn 1. There is genuinely so little you can do to combat Mienfoo Goth without just winning a bunch of coinflips.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-791636?p2 - Replay of Gothita beating darkspam. It did play a pretty crucial part in winning this game even if it wasn't really on the field much. All in all saying the oppurtunity cost of letting Vull or Stunky in isn't that high. Stunky was also way better in that meta than it is now and you agreed with me on that here. Letting Stunky in isn't this huge deal when it struggles a lot vs what are the currently most used defensive cores. Letting Vull in definently is slightly more annoying but most teams in this meta are designed to have at least two pretty good Vullaby checks on their team naturally. Plus Vullaby is a mon that doesn't really like to constantly come in and take hazards chip during the game. It is a mon whos healthy is pretty crucial to dealing iwth a lot of threats like trading with some of the more difficult mons to defensively handle in the meta like Torchic and Mudbray.

tera ghost foongus

i talked about this on discord already but the Tera Ghost Foongus is insane. First of all, you utilize your Tera when Foongus has like three better Tera types. Second of all, Foongus is not Foongus when it clicks Tera, Its defensive typing is the only reason it gets used because otherwise it would be a terrible mon. Third of all, you are forced to Tera Ghost your Foongus the turn Gothita enters to not let it boost to hell and win. Even if you Tera on the first turn your Gothita is behind a Sub with a CM boost. This almost certainly favors the Gothita player a lot more.

if no foongus ur playing 5v6

you still trap the poison types pretty effectively. you miss out on trapping mienfoo, but ur not playing 5v6. you can still get value out of it.

faster scarfers

what scarfers do people use? scarf foo is a hell of a lot to dedicate when you very often need its evio for mons like Chinchou and Torchic.

priority

prio is good I run Sucker Punch on my Diglett's. Something you fail to consider here though is at the end of the Gothita vs Foongus interaction, there is a Substitute up. Ice Shard Sandshrew is actually particularly depressing to me as Shellos does see some use right now and Sandshrew is actually just dead weight into it with there being legitimately 0 you can do to it. This Gothita is getting at minimum two kills with potential for more. Even if it does not win the game it warps the game an insane amount. Just yesterday with the set getting used in LCPL Starsama had to use up a good amount of resources to beat it and should have lost as an aftermath of it, but Kaboom made a mistake in game.

trapmag

I am familiar with this meta too. Here are the stats from when KSG beat DVS. Ferro was not as popular then as Foongus is now. Complete bogus

makes teambuilding awkward

pair it with mons that don't like Foongus. Teamo has also used it outside of niche stuff like Eject Button Elekid and gotten many bogus wins with it too. It isn't this mon that can only function on one team, especially seeing as a fuck ton of teams have Foongus. I've also personally seen random 6's where it could just be Scarf Goth and it functions perfectly fine there too because it can still trap its main target. It offers way less to teams than Scarf Goth for sure, but its plenty possible to make teams with it.

I think anyone who thinks trapper Goth's prescense is good in the tier when the tier is so constrained as it is right now is crazy. If Foongus wasn't as popular as it waas right now I don't think Council would have supported action on Gothita, but it's near required while building. The volatile gameplay that is forced in SV really makes the turns of getting slept so punishing especially with our options to combat it. Those are Gothita, Overcoat Vullaby, or use Elekid which still does not like the Foongus interaction.

I will be without a doubt voting Ban on this suspect. I think the Magby ban was a mistake, but I do think this ban is necesary for the health of the metagame.

 

[jyusaan]

torchic suspect when

 

[Éric]

bunch of replays

i really do not care, idk why youre showing 9 months old replays where half the banlist we have now was free. a lot of words that mean nothing here

i talked about this on discord already but the Tera Ghost Foongus is insane.

its not insane. its always been used and still is to this very day.

This almost certainly favors the Gothita player a lot more.

a lot more than what, letting it go to +6 +6? definitely not

you still trap the poison types pretty effectively. you miss out on trapping mienfoo, but ur not playing 5v6. you can still get value out of it.

i heavily disagree, it is much much harder to get it in positions to trap mareanie compared to sets with psychic.

what scarfers do people use? scarf foo is a hell of a lot to dedicate when you very often need its evio for mons like Chinchou and Torchic.

Something you fail to consider here though is at the end of the Gothita vs Foongus interaction, there is a Substitute up.

good points, even if i disagree scarfers should get much use (and same with prio). however, this doesn't really always lead up to gothita wins in the games this set actually shows up and does work.

Here are the stats from when KSG beat DVS. Ferro was not as popular then as Foongus is now. Complete bogus

"complete bogus" and and its 3/5 vs 2/5, basically the same: a mon you can expect to show up about half the games you play.

I've also personally seen random 6's where it could just be scarf goth

youre showing a team whose fastest mon is mienfoo and also one which has a grookey (terrible even if foongus is out of the field). it has very obvious flaws, which is my point: adding a mon with 0 defensive value is always a move you need to make very carefully.

 

[MK007]

RIP Evio Tera Grass Grass Knot Goth that can hard switchin on most Mudbray sets and one shot it letting voltturn teams go ham.

Per Viability rankings Gothita isn't even a top 12 mon in the tier. Are they grossly out of date or is there a major disconnect somewhere?

 

[bleahey]

reqs done, i'm in the dnb boat as well. subcm is a bit tricky but it's a fish like eric said, i don't find it anywhere near as broken as any of the past bans

 

[Drifting]

Scarf Shadow Tag is a complete meme and serves only to restrict freedom of play and force unavoidable kills in a metagame already prone to brainlessly linear, repetitive gameplans. It has no counterplay (other than burning your Tera I guess, great) and bypasses basically all traditional skills of resource management and defensive pivoting in mons. Revenge killing for dummies. The fish sets are also obviously fraudulent and the fact that we saw the same people get multiple wins with them in LCBC is depressing.

This mon is far from the most pressing issue in the tier, which I'd diagnose as (in order):

1. Mandatory Vull and Foo (and Vull and Foo counters, usually Bray/Glim and Foongus/Mareanie) making up the majority of all teams, severely limiting non-cheese creativity/diversity, and turning many games into functional mirror matches, which is bad because mirror matches are both very unambigious and simple to play (who's in the lead is extremely obvious when the same resources are shared, which lets you snowball more easily) and the effects of volatility/rng are way more pronounced, be it crits, misses, rolls, lead matchups or double switch 50/50s.

2. Torchic (self-explanatory)

But I don't really see this as a reason why not to get rid of Goth, since the mon is too good to be as uninteractive and low IQ as it is, even ignoring the Salac set.

Thus Spoke Driftingthustra

 

[Éric]

Scarf Shadow Tag is a complete meme and serves only to restrict freedom of play and force unavoidable kills in a metagame already prone to brainlessly linear, repetitive gameplans. It has no counterplay (other than burning your Tera I guess, great) and bypasses basically all traditional skills of resource management and defensive pivoting in mons. Revenge killing for dummies. The fish sets are also obviously fraudulent and the fact that we saw the same people get multiple wins with them in LCBC is depressing

this paragraph is terrible. the same people didnt get multiple wins with the set in lcbc: it was brought once in the very famous onraider game, and it won. that is it. you make it seem like it was terrorizing the metagame when it only saw one single use.
also saying scarf gothita has no counterplay is beyond me. have you seen calcs? it doesnt ko shit. you know whats the counterplay? existing. even beyond tera, goth doesnt get as many kills as it should because it doesnt get koes even AFTER UTURN. if it was so busted (the scarf set), why does it see as much usage as shellos? lmfao this whole post is a mess

 

[Drifting]

this paragraph is terrible. the same people didnt get multiple wins with the set in lcbc: it was brought once in the very famous onraider game, and it won. that is it. you make it seem like it was terrorizing the metagame when it only saw one single use.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-821570
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-2275312389-m5qxn1bshgi6t1s2x36me1rzg4o4eu9pw

My understanding is that Teamo has also won a bunch of tour games with it recently but I havent followed any lc teamtour since LCBC, and it was more of an aside than a real argument in the first place. As for the rest of your post, "existing" is obviously not counterplay, nobody is arguing that Gothita is overpowered or dominating the meta, simply that it makes the game less skillful and only exists to facilitate cheese and noob lines rather than actually playing around your opponent. Usage of any esoteric mon is gonna suffer when The Foo/Vull circus is glug-glug-glugging up most of your team spots leaving Goth fighting for the scraps with actual broken stuff like Torchic or to a lesser extent Shellder.

I can empathize with a "no broken, no ban" philosophy but really ask yourself what Goth is contributing to the meta other than making it more simplistic/linear and sometimes instantly ending a game with a fish set.

 

[wesh papillon]

banning goth brings us closer to the 6 viable mons utopia little cup players seem to have wet dreams about so yeah go that

 

[Eniigma]

Since when was goth a threat in this gen. Since never. Def no ban

 

[Roldski32]

Personally, this suspect and discussion should focus more on SubSalac Goth's impact to the tier than Scarf Goth's.

I actually don't think Scarf Goth is not worth mentioning at all because I would really question how it took this long to suspect a mon that was using this set for so long throughout SV, and some LC people seem to have more concern about Torchic and even Sleep than Scarf Goth from what I've seen. Some people even find this Gothita suspect test weird, and if you asked me, this suspect test is just more of a response to this LCBC final game:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-821570

Really, this game is literally 100% the main reason behind this entire suspect test, and some people suddenly wanted Goth banned because of this game. I'm kinda undecided whether this set is banworthy or not, though I could understand the concern behind this. It is problematic to have this MU fish mon that could 6-0 Foongus teams be on a meta, especially with Foongus being too common, and this set is more impactful than say... SS Magnemite. And I supposed this suspect test is made to prevent SubSalac Goth from further wrecking havoc to the meta, especially with the ongoing LCPL tour.

 

[Winterbub]

I personally feel Gothita is fine in the meta. I agree with Roldski's point above (that this sus is because of sub cm, not scarf due to the replay). It's been 4 months since and no radical change has been made to the meta even though Foongus usage is as high as ever. I do agree that the set is uncompetitive, fishy, and lame. However, to me that doesn't mean it warrants a ban. I honestly don't have a super strong opinion either way. I think this suspect test should have not been a priority over other metagame warping threats and we should have waited to see if there was any developments to come from sub cm Goth (and teams structured around it). Very open to and interested in hearing other people's opinions on this.

Edit: Got reqs and opinion did not change, voting DNB

 

[Zcarlett]

Personally, this suspect and discussion should focus more on SubSalac Goth's impact to the tier than Scarf Goth's.

Before I get into the main meat of the post, I would like to say that I do agree with this notion. Scarf Goth isn't the most unhealthy thing in the world and I highly doubt we would be suspecting it right now if it was the only set people were using it with.

Personally, this suspect and discussion should focus more on SubSalac Goth's impact to the tier than Scarf Goth's.

I actually don't think Scarf Goth is not worth mentioning at all because I would really question how it took this long to suspect a mon that was using this set for so long throughout SV, and some LC people seem to have more concern about Torchic and even Sleep than Scarf Goth from what I've seen. Some people even find this Gothita suspect test weird, and if you asked me, this suspect test is just more of a response to this LCBC final game:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-821570

Really, this game is literally 100% the main reason behind this entire suspect test, and some people suddenly wanted Goth banned because of this game. I'm kinda undecided whether this set is banworthy or not, though I could understand the concern behind this. It is problematic to have this MU fish mon that could 6-0 Foongus teams be on a meta, especially with Foongus being too common, and this set is more impactful than say... SS Magnemite. And I supposed this suspect test is made to prevent SubSalac Goth from further wrecking havoc to the meta, especially with the ongoing LCPL tour.

I think that saying "oh there is one replay and everyone wants it banned" is a little disingenuous. I think that matchup fishing for a pokemon with ~80% usage is something that is inherently competitive. While it was definitely an impactful debut, its been ~3-4 months since that game and people have had time to play against it themselves or see others do so. Without a doubt, the set is uncompetitive, as fishing for a mon that fluctuates between 70-80% is not the most unreasonable thing. While there is counterplay to this set after it is set up (Priority, Scarfers, and to a lesser extent Multi Hit moves), it is neither common or splashable, which is then compounded that you usually need a combination of these 2 things to actually take down the Goth before too much damage is done. It is also worth noting that most of the Salac Goth teams have ran Mareanie, which usually allows for Foongus to pp stall Gothita into killing it early (seen here: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9lc-847941). If you instead run it with Foongus, any Foongus war becomes a winning interaction for you. Being in a Foongus war when you have a Gothita in the back either forces your opponent to awkwardly switch around Foongus and risk being slept to preserve pp for the Goth, or instead burn pp making the Goth trap later in the game much more secure.

 

[xonks]

got reqs, prolly gonna vote dnb for the reasons that eric said

 

[mmtaccos]

i really like scarf gothita for its virtue of making foongus not have zero negative qualities, as well as being a great blanket answer to the multitude of offensive mons in the tier like foo, mudbray and (chipped) elekid, as well as vullaby if it doesnt have a speed boost. as for the sub salac set, i think we'll just need time for foongus-using teams to develop answers to it. someone has already mentioned tera ghost foong, which invalidates the set completely, sucker punch dig, i think ice shard ashrew is really good too. sub salac goth teams tend to just fold as soon as goth dies, so if you have the proper counterplay you can usually end up winning even if you lose foongus + another mon in the process. i will be voting dnb once voting starts

 

[Inazuma-Fulgur]

Ill say a few things
firstly gothita is only managable because we have a few mons with ubers tier stats and perfect movepools preventing easy entry to it
secondly foongus is far from a flawless mon, once you have a sleep fodder you can take it on with a bunch of mons and even some of the ones it wants to check it cant come in on for free. with hazard stacks or a knock it has to spend time healing even with regenrator being nuts.
tera ghost on slow pokemon is an untera and youre better of sacing foongus than preserving a mon that cant absord tspikes, cant check foo, is susceptible to poison as it already cant beat other prominent poison types/grass resist in the tier without spore while giving your opponent a free double on whatever immunity you go to. that is not mentioning trick on tera ghost/steel. tera ghost only makes sense to limit the ability of salc goth, the cheese unset. and even then youre giving up a free sub, opening yourself up to hax, etc

goth has no place in the meta, even with broken shadow tag it is a bad mon. the much superior scarf goth is still a match up fish. saying goth kills nothing is pretty untrue because you dont know whether your opponent will tera psychic. tera psychic ohkoes a suprising amount with neutral hits.
if anyone wants to argue goth should stay argue against shadow tag at least.
it is the type of fringe mon that doesnt see usage because it is bad, but it does see success because its toolkit is unbeatable in the right circumstances so people play for it.

just tactically it isnt sound advice to use tera to fix a match up just to prevent opposing progress, your own tera needs to make progress/enhance the capabilities of your mon. purely defensive teras only appear as last resorts or very late game on defensive pokemon as theyre more liabilities than anything else.

without shadow tag goth would not be used as it fills no niche and I will be voting ban. goth ban or shadow tag ban are essentially the same.
when there are incentives to use a mon with bad stats, bad skillset and poor winrate because its gives you winning odds against superior players without a need to outplay that is not to be tolerated.
both goth sets are fishy, require different resource management and are impossible to scout from team preview or ingame until it is most likely too late.
it is one sided risk management as well. the goth player can take advantage of the opponent being unable to risk dropping a full mon or at least tera just to escape and make plays on uturn/knocks/double switches and force lose-lose situations. using bad goth you are effectively down a full mon, but the opponent is still effectively down 1.5 since you have at least two goth weaknesses on each team that cant freely make use of their skillset. foongus can at least deter entry until it has spored, foo is unable to ever click hjk or fake out without risking death. and scarf goth is still a decent revenge killer, with zero counterplay since you cant even switch in a vull or whatever to preserve a sac. not being able to double out when trying to revenge goth is another one sided benefit to the goth player and fairly impactful.

goth also does wonders for ho structures and is underexploed there.
as the main answers to torchic and shellder are susceptible to goth, either making them drop or forcing tera making late game lines for torchic + tera rock shellder cores much more straight forward and less risky

 

[mmtaccos]

when there are incentives to use a mon with bad stats, bad skillset and poor winrate because its gives you winning odds against superior players without a need to outplay that is not to be tolerated.

If it has bad stats a bad skillset and a poor winrate then why would it be banned

 

[Winterbub]

just tactically it isnt sound advice to use tera to fix a match up just to prevent opposing progress, your own tera needs to make progress/enhance the capabilities of your mon. purely defensive teras only appear as last resorts or very late game on defensive pokemon as theyre more liabilities than anything else.

I think it is worth noting that in this scenario goth has to use Tera steel to beat foongus, so burning your Tera to deny that isn’t as big of a deal. I also don’t think Tera ghost is as bad as you’re making it out to be. It makes it even harder for foo to click HJK

 

[AJ]

From only playing this tier for slam, goth ban seems goofy. I see both sides of the debate, but goth was never an issue for me in prep or gameplay.

But ngl (and I'd love a response here) why are we not banning tera blast/torchic? If we're calling gothita brainless, I point my finger to that little orange fucker. It's way harder to circumvent than shellder because it can abuse tera better offensively. Its incredibly easy to speed boost. Wisp and sub really help it in otherwise damning scenarios.

I know this is the ban goth thread, but I am a bit confused why this is the suspect and not torchic/tera blast.