Gen 8 [NEW] Generation 8 National Dex Doubles- Metagame Discussion/Resources

[eragon]

Generation 8 National Dex DOUBLES
Live Discussion in the National Dex Discord (#ss channel)!
https://discord.gg/v2DzTQPjhp

Introduction​

With the success of Generation 9 National Dex Doubles and Generation 9 National Dex Doubles Ubers, the NDDOU council has decided it is finally time to release and support Generation 8 National Dex Doubles. While National Dex and the associated singles formats began in Generation 8, no National Dex Doubles format was developed while it was the current generation. Instead, National Dex Doubles was created during the first year of Generation 9, and no Generation 8 format was ever developed. However, we are now changing that.

Generation 8 Natdex is an exciting new metagame featuring (at least for now) Dynamax, the central mechanic of Generation 8 that was banned from basically every smogon format, including Generation 8 Doubles OU. However, with the high powered options again available in National Dex, including Mega Evolutions and Z Moves, we will see if this format can handle Dynamax- if any format can handle it, it would be this one. The decision to allow dynamax was made via a poll of the community in the National Dex Doubles discord, and it may be revisited after the conclusion of the first few tournaments, including the just announced SSNDPL.

Format Rules

This format is played 6v6, at level 100. Anything released is able to be used, except for the listed Pokemon, Abilities, and Items listed below.

Battles are to be played in the challengeable format [Gen 8] National Dex Doubles format.

challenge code

/challenge gen8doublesou @@@ NatDex Mod,!Dynamax Clause,-Arceus,-Coaching,-Dark Void,-Gengar-Mega,+Jirachi,+Kartana,+Marshadow,+Urshifu-Base,-Venusaur

You can construct your teams in the "Generation 8 National Dex" teambuilder. However, be aware of the banlist/ruleset described below:

Play Restrictions:

Endless Battle Clause: Players cannot intentionally prevent an opponent from being able to end the game without forfeiting.

Species Clause: Players cannot use two Pokemon with the same Pokedex number on the same team.

OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.

Evasion Moves Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.

Gravity Sleep Clause: Sleep moves with below one hundred percent accuracy may not be used in conjunction with Gravity.

POKEMON RESTRICTIONS
The initial list of legal pokemon was taken as anything legal in either generation 8 DOU or Natdex, plus Urshifu-Single Strike.
Players can use all the Pokemon in the National Dex except the following Pokemon:

Arceus (all formes)
Calyrex-Ice
Calyrex-Shadow
Dialga
Eternatus
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Groudon
Ho-Oh
Kyogre
Kyurem-White
Lugia
Lunala
Magearna
Melmetal
Mewtwo
Necrozma-Dawn Wings
Necrozma-Dusk Mane
Palkia
Rayquaza
Reshiram
Solgaleo
Venusaur
Xerneas
Yveltal
Zacian
Zacian-Crowned
Zamazenta
Zamazenta-Crowned
Zekrom
Zygarde-Complete

Players cannot use the following abilities:

• Power Construct
• Snow Cloak
• Sand Veil
• Shadow Tag

Players cannot use the following items:

• Gengarite

Players cannot use the following moves:

• Coaching
• Dark Void
• Swagger

Coaching and Shadow Tag were initially allowed, but were quickbanned by the initial playtesters, as it was determined that these elements were uncompetitive for similar reasons to their bans in Gen 9 National Dex Doubles. More specifically, Coaching proved to be problematic with Dynamaxed partners.

Tier Council
eragon
Smudge
Schister
shadekirby321
LogIce



Sample Teams

tyo's Spectrier Balance


eragon and gephicka's Moltres Balance


shadekirby321 and gephicka's Registeel Balance


LogIce's Spectrier Offense


tyo and LogIce's Stakataka Balance


eragon's Zapdos Hyper Offense

Sample Teams Archive

eragon's Comfey + Moltres Offense
Weakness Policy Banned

Schister's Glastrier Semiroom (with Salamence edit by eragon)
Weakness Policy Banned

shadekirby321's MetaFini Balance
Weakness Policy Banned

Schister's Coalossal-Gmax
Weakness Policy Banned

VIABILITY RANKINGS (updated 8/9/25)

Tier 1

Pokemon that dominate a large portion of the metagame. They are either quite powerful or offer great team support, and can fit on almost any team. You can't really go wrong by using these Pokemon.

Rillaboom
Mega Metagross
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike
Spectrier

Tier 2

Pokemon that are generally strong and can easily be placed on a variety of teams, but don't have the same level of prowess as the threats in Tier 1.

Urshifu
Landorus-Therian
Tapu Fini
Incineroar
Stakataka
Togekiss
Landorus

Tier 3

Pokemon that are generally strong, but less powerful than those in Tier 2 or Pokemon that require a decent amount of support or a specific team style to function well, but are defining pieces to said archetypes.

Mega Salamence
Blastoise
Zapdos
Moltres-Galar
Thundurus
Amoonguss
Zeraora
Jirachi
Dusclops
Dragapult
Kartana
Glastrier
Heatran
Clefairy
Grimmsnarl
Whimsicott

Tier 4

This tier contains either Pokemon that have broad applications on a variety of teams, but are simply less effective than those in higher tiers, or are only particularly useful for certain team styles.

Tyranitar
Zygarde
Celesteela
Kyurem-Black
Volcarona
Indeedee-F
Dracozolt
Diancie
Cinderace-Gmax
Hatterene-Gmax
Porygon-Z
Registeel
Mega Kangaskhan
Porygon2
Dracovish
Excadrill
Nihilego
Marshadow
Ferrothorn
Mew
Tornadus
Mega Gardevoir
Genesect
Tapu-Koko
Entei

Tier Five

Pokemon that, while they have a niche in the metagame, often struggle to find situations where they thrive, either because of the support required or their poor matchups.

Mega Tyranitar
Politoed
Naganadel
Kingdra
Comfey
Tapu-Lele
Torkoal
Mega Diancie
Mega Swampert
Tsareena
Coalossal-Gmax
Volcanion
Deoxys-Speed
Camerupt-Mega
Greninja-Ash
Pelipper
Pheromosa
Bronzong
Mega Aerodactyl
Ninetales
Rotom-Heat
Mega Mawile

 

[Frixel]

Initial Watchlist
As of 5/10/24, the tiering council is weighing action on the following Pokemon:

Gmax Venusaur forms a powerful combo with Mega Charizard-Y, moving faster than basically the entire format with Chlorophyll in sun, utilizing Gmax Vine Lash for the extremely powerful end of turn damage effect, and Max Ooze to boost the Special Attack of both itself and a partner, such as Mega Charizard.

Both Mega Charizard Y and Gmax Charizard are powerful options. Mega Charizard both enables Chlorophyll sweepers like Venusaur with Dynamax and poses a powerful offensive threat by itself. Gmax Charizard uses Solar Power when paired with Sun setters like Torkoal to unleash massive amounts of damage, and has its own Gmax attack, Gmax Wildfire, letting it inflict the powerful end of turn chip damage effect similarly to Venusaur's Vine Lash.

In addition, we will keep a close eye on the tier for the next few weeks as more broken elements are likely to appear.

np: SS DOU Stage 1: When I Grow Up | Dynamax Banned​

Dynamax, at its worst, has the ability to blow up small weaknesses in teams to levels that can't be handled. Whichever team better utilizes their Max turns can run away with games by shifting momentum strongly enough that you can't come back. Various different elements of the metagame are enabled and exaggerated by Dynamax; Weakness Policy's inherent risk of taking a supereffective move is removed by doubling your HP. "Setup" Pokemon don't necessarily need setup moves thanks to Max Quake / Max Steelspike / Max Airstream, and more rarely, Max Knuckle and Max Ooze, and they retain all their attacking moves after the Max turns are over. In addition, gaining the additional offensive power from Dynamax also comes with a dramatic increase in bulk, making offensive answers that remove this threat from play very difficult to come by. These traits have made stat dropping an incredibly important part of handling an opponent's Dynamax, but even then there are offensive threats like Dragapult and Scope Lens Super Luck Togekiss that can circumvent these strategies.

Dynamax Doubles OU Tournament​

The tour was fun, but the format definitely still feels degenerate. Too much of the game hinges on the dmax turns, and things like twave and redirection spam are too heavily favored.

I wanted to bring up a topic that's been worrying me regarding this format: Dynamax. Given its history and the current state of the metagame, I think it's worth discussing whether this mechanic should be in here in the first place.

Back when SS DOU was still fresh, Dynamax got the boot for a few pretty solid reasons:

• It enabled broken strats like Beat Up + Justified (Terrakion, anyone?) that could blow through teams turn 1 or 2 with very little counterplay
• No item or species restriction meant any mon could suddenly become a bulky nuke at any moment, which made preparing defensively a nightmare
• Max moves ignored checks and Protects, not just with their raw power, but with secondary effects like Max Airstream speed boosts or Max Knuckle stacking Attack. Even bulky counters could get overwhelmed just from a couple of Max move triggers.
• It made the meta really volatile and matchup-heavy. A lot of games felt like they came down to who Dynamaxed first and landed their swing turn better
• Dynamax also made certain item and ability combos oppressive. Things like Weakness Policy proccing off your partner’s move turned otherwise fine Pokémon into immediate threats. It also let naturally frail mons bypass their biggest weaknesses with just three turns of uncheckable pressure and double HP

There were two main arguments back then for not banning it:

• Some people wanted to target specific abusers instead, arguing that the issue wasn’t Dynamax itself but particular combinations or Pokémon that were warping the meta around it
• Others thought Dynamax added unique strategy. Because of the versatility of Max moves and the timing decisions around when to use them, it gave players more tools and created interesting scenarios

Fast forward to now, and honestly, some of those same problems are going to be even worse with the expanded NatDex pool:

• Games will be ultra fast-paced because of early Dynamax pressure. It speeds everything up so much that if you don’t immediately match your opponent’s aggression, you’re probably just getting run over by turn 4
• The meta feels like a Dynamax arms race. You’re either building around your own massive Dynamax turn or trying to absorb your opponent’s. And realistically, Dynamaxing as a countermeasure rarely works out. Using it as an offensive nuke is almost always better than trying to stall or trade into theirs, so people are encouraged to go all-in on turn one or two. That just turns the metagame into a high-powered hyper offense fest. Team variety takes a hit because you're either going aggressive or bringing niche tech to not get overwhelmed instantly
• Defensive counterplay feels really shaky. Stuff that should wall a threat gets blasted anyway or gets overwhelmed by stacking boosts from Max Quake or Airstream. It also makes speed control even harder to play around because of the stat boosts on top of the raw damage
• And most of all, Dynamax ends up being the focal point of every game. Everything revolves around it. Whoever uses it better usually wins. It overshadows the rest of the gameplay like board positioning, protecting your wincons, pivoting, or anything long-term. Once Dynamax hits the field, the game’s outcome is often decided right there.

All of this just reinforces why Dynamax was banned in SS DOU in the first place. It’s a mechanic that’s way too flexible, way too powerful, and honestly impossible to balance without fundamentally changing how the game works. In a format like NatDex where every Pokémon and combo is on the table, the problems only get worse. The pace becomes too fast, the counterplay too narrow, and the skill expression too dependent on one three-turn window. If we care about promoting diverse playstyles, deeper strategy, and healthier long-term development of the tier, then I think seriously considering a ban on Dynamax is the way to go.

 

[Smudge]

I'm not trying to shut you down, but we are aware of all of this. Dynamax is no longer a new mechanic, its issues and imbalances are known to everyone who has played with it.

And most of all, Dynamax ends up being the focal point of every game. Everything revolves around it. Whoever uses it better usually wins.

Welcome to generational mechanics, I guess? Tera is like this as well, but to a slightly lesser extent.

If we care about promoting diverse playstyles, deeper strategy, and healthier long-term development of the tier, then I think seriously considering a ban on Dynamax is the way to go.

As stated in the OP,

The decision to allow dynamax was made via a poll of the community in the National Dex Doubles discord, and it may be revisited after the conclusion of the first few tournaments

It will be considered, but you have to remember that in the same way that SV ND DOU was created, this combination of Pokemon in a format has also never existed. Since there was strong interest in playing it with Dynamax from people who planned to sign up for SS NDPL, we will likely play the entirety of the tournament with it. I'd figure that it's enough to gauge whether it's worth continuing. If Dynamax ends up being banned, so be it. I have an open mind about it, and I'd recommend you have the same.

The impetus for even considering creating this tier was a desire from SS ND staff to have Doubles in the tournament. I mentioned that it's very volatile and underdeveloped, may not maintain interest and people might not like it, but they ended up including it anyways because we said we'd support it if they did.

In my view, an SS NDDOU tier has very little reason to exist if there is not Dynamax to give it a separate identity from SS DOU and SV NDDOU, even if it's unbalanced or centralized. Some people in other communities have called Gen8 ND "SM+", and I'm inclined to agree with that view.

---
Also, I don't really see the value in quoting posts that are years old of entirely different formats to justify your positions. (pre-DLC SS and a one-off towards the end of the gen)

This format has significantly more leeway to experiment with what bans and/or rules would improve it than SS DOU (an official tier, bound by different policies!) had at the time. For example, in the one-off tour in 2022, Beat Up and Weakness Policy were banned as people realized in retrospect that them in combination with DMax was problematic. I think it'd be worth considering mirroring those bans here. If the tier would be better off without them, we'd be willing to ban Charizard and Venusaur entirely as well, not just the GMax formes something the SS DOU staff was seemingly not willing to do.

 

[Frixel]

Welcome to generational mechanics, I guess? Tera is like this as well, but to a slightly lesser extent.

I do not appreciate the irony, fundamentally comparing both mechanics is the same thing as comparing the number of goals scored by a striker and a goalkeeper just because the 2 are football players.

Dynamax is best used offensively. It heavily impacts the pace of the game, and you’re generally encouraged to use it early, aggressively, and to seize momentum. It amplifies snowballing and often punishes the player who’s already behind, making comebacks much harder. Because of its massive stat buffs and effects like doubled HP and field-wide Max Moves, a single turn of Dynamax can completely warp a game.

Tera, on the other hand, is much more nuanced. Having the option to use Tera is often stronger than having already used it. It doesn’t speed up the game’s tempo and usually rewards long-term planning. Using it incorrectly is far less punishing than misusing Dynamax. Tera is reactive and flexible, more about type matchups and mind games than raw power. It promotes deeper turn-to-turn play, while Dynamax forces the game into a race of who can press their advantage first. Moreover, tera doesn't completely disregard the other factors of the metagame and doesn't turn the metagame into a mu coinflip. Most importantly, Tera is way less impactful on the game and the impact of the game than Dynamax.

As stated in the OP,
It will be considered, but you have to remember that in the same way that SV ND DOU was created, this combination of Pokemon in a format has also never existed. Since there was strong interest in playing it with Dynamax from people who planned to sign up for SS NDPL, we will likely play the entirety of the tournament with it. I'd figure that it's enough to gauge whether it's worth continuing. If Dynamax ends up being banned, so be it. I have an open mind about it, and I'd recommend you have the same.

"The decision to allow dynamax was made via a poll of the community in the National Dex Doubles discord". This decision and means of action excluded everyone that either wasn't either in the ND DOU cord or didn't see the message. Making the assumption that everyone who was planning to sign up for SS NDPL was on the ND DOU cord and voiced their will feels very shady. I've personally seen little to no interest in playing this tier with dynamax, but people will play just for the sake of playing.
For example, I would be very interested in playing DOU, but I'm 0 interested in playing it with dmax.

In my view, an SS NDDOU tier has very little reason to exist if there is not Dynamax to give it a separate identity from SS DOU and SV NDDOU, even if it's unbalanced or centralized. Some people in other communities have called Gen8 ND "SM+", and I'm inclined to agree with that view.

You can give a tier identity without making fundamentally broken. As you said yourself, you prefer to create a tier that is unbalanced, uncompetitive and centralized just for the sake of it.

Also, I don't really see the value in quoting posts that are years old of entirely different formats to justify your positions. (pre-DLC SS and a one-off towards the end of the gen)

This format has significantly more leeway to experiment with what bans and/or rules would improve it than SS DOU (an official tier, bound by different policies!) had at the time. For example, in the one-off tour in 2022, Beat Up and Weakness Policy were banned as people realized in retrospect that them in combination with DMax was problematic. I think it'd be worth considering mirroring those bans here. If the tier would be better off without them, we'd be willing to ban Charizard and Venusaur entirely as well, not just the GMax formes something the SS DOU staff was seemingly not willing to do.

Dynamax is a fundamentally broken generation mechanic that was banned in ALL SS Metagames. These discussions were held throughout the whole lifetime of the metagame, and it was always concluded that it was fundamentally broken. A tournament was held to revaluate it, and the result was that the mechanic was fundamentally broken.

I'd seen no prior discussion to this. With dmax, I think this tier is uncompetitive and I voiced my concerns regarding it, showcasing concerns that a whole community had in the past. When I summarize the np thread, I also made sure to include the arguments that would lead to it staying. Everyone of this pokemon can go, there will be always one willing to press Max Airstream + Max Knuckle/Max Poison move and the result will be identical.

Since there was strong interest in playing it with Dynamax from people who planned to sign up for SS NDPL, we will likely play the entirety of the tournament with it.

To everyone that was not in ND DOU cord, this tier was basically created and we were excluded to voice our opinion.
How are we exactly measuring "people who planned to sign up for SS NDPL" here? How are we measuring people who have interest from nddou cord? Moreover, how are we even measuring that these players are the ones who will actually play the tier?

Let's take a look at the list of people that played SS NDDOU in the past NDPL:
eragon
Voltix ("I really dont think dynamax and megas are meant to be together give boosts to gross mence or marshadow sound so broken")
laptops (2 messages in the server)
Akaru Kokuyo (last message in 2023)
Enzonana. (never joined the server)
xqiht (retired)
Schister
Penter (last message march 2025, no comment regarding dmax)
bagel (last message 2024)
Chris32156 (last message 2024)
Iceberg77 (no comment regarding dmax - for context, this means no message from iceberg contains "dmax" or "dynamax")
Smudge
sir jelloton (voted either is fine)
Glimmer (voted no)

In other words, over half of the players who played DOU in NDPL last year didn't even voiced their messages regarding dmax in SS NDDOU, but the server was used as a sample of the community? The "clear support from the community" represents a 57% of people voting yes and, looking at a more qualified pool, we have 3 people in favor, 2 in disagree and one with eiter is fine, but, most importantly, over half without actually voicing their opinion.

At the end of the day, I get that there's an appeal to having something different—something that gives this tier its own flavor. But uniqueness shouldn't come at the cost of competitive integrity. Dynamax is not just another mechanic that needs adjusting; it’s a fundamentally broken system that was banned in every major SS format after years of discussion and practical experience. From what I can tell, you seem more interested in having something unique just for the sake of being unique, even if that means ignoring the concerns of experienced players, excluding large portions of the community from the conversation, and prioritizing novelty over balance. That’s not how we should be building a metagame.

We should be aiming for something competitive, fair, and enjoyable in the long term—not something propped up by gimmicks, siloed decisions, and nostalgia for a mechanic that has already proven itself unhealthy.

edit:

In my view, an SS NDDOU tier has very little reason to exist if there is not Dynamax to give it a separate identity from SS DOU and SV NDDOU, even if it's unbalanced or centralized. Some people in other communities have called Gen8 ND "SM+", and I'm inclined to agree with that view.

SS NDDOU is already fundamentally different than SV NDDOU due to not having tera. Moreover, FM is one of the most defining and centralizing pkmn of the generation that will simply not exist in SS NDDDOU.
SS NDDOU is already fundamentally different than SS DOU due to the inclusion of the national dex format.

 

[SeaLife]

Part One (Preface)
Due to ssndpl, I became curious about ssndd because this format does not exist on shwodown. I became curious about ssndd and later discovered this post and the debate about “whether to ban dynamax”.
So, before elaborating on my point of view, please allow me to briefly introduce some of my emotions towards ndd and some of my experiences regarding ndd.
Firstly, when ndd first opened, I had already been playing on the ladder every day and night. When a new format is released, the extremely low Elo makes it quite easy to become a top 1, which is very attractive to me who is still in the novice stage.This is quite a sense of achievement, which inspires me to constantly play the ladder.
At the same time, I also encountered xqiht multiple times in the ladder, and gradually we became familiar with each other and discovered many common features between us. Including but not limited to the same city and similar experiences.
In the Chinese community, many people believe that I am the chief disciple of xqiht. Although this is a rumor and xqiht and I are more like like-minded friends, I still recognize this "teacher" in my heart. Without him as my guide to participate in the smg tour, perhaps I would continue to climb the ladder of ndd until one day I get tired of it.
(By the way, a few days ago on my birthday, I received a gift from xqiht : D )
I'm a bit off topic, please forgive me for saying so much nonsense. Overall, I am truly grateful to all those who have contributed to ndd, including smudge.
I am already an 'old' who cannot keep up with the current ndd metagame, but this does not affect my love for this format. I have always found it really interesting, and I hope it will become better and better.
Okay, now let's start elaborating on my point of view.

Part 2 (Opinion)

Before discussing whether to ban Dynamax, we may turn our attention to other 6v6 formats that have Dynamax. For example, SS DUber and SS ndag.
It is evident that these formats share a common feature of having a highly offensive metagame.
From this, it can be concluded that dmax plays a role in accelerating the progress of a highly offensive metagame, and is only a icing on the cake for the mainstream gameplay of this metagame.
(After all, even if DUber doesn't have dmax, you wouldn't use stall on DUber.)
Objectively speaking, dmax has profoundly influenced the gameplay of ssndd, greatly speeding up the game process and making this metagame more offensive. At the same time, it also drove the usage of some pokemon that we couldn't even see on ssdou and smdou.
The most typical examples are Defiant Thundurus and Glastrier. To be honest, dmax has increased the diversity of metagames, but at the same time, it has also made its gameplay similar, simply revolving around dmax.
It is very excessive for some dmax moves to exceed the standard and for HP to double.
But fortunately, it only had a brief three rounds, which may not seem like much for Doubles format that often involves more than ten rounds, but in reality, its impact is enormous. The destructive power and gain effects caused in the short three rounds are quite terrifying.

Part 3 (Conclusion)

Since my English is not very good, I won't go into too much detail.
I like the special gameplay of dmax, after all, for players who have been in SV metagame for a long time, this is undoubtedly a "brand new" gameplay.
Talking a lot about dmax, but it is certain that dmax is likely to disappear from SS ndd in the near future.
And what I can do is not argue about whether to ban dmax, but enjoy the NDD with dmax now.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post (grammar is frustrating). Let's meet again in the officially launched SSNDD ladder.

 

[shadekirby321]

my general tiering opinions:

• big residual gmax forms should be banned asap (venu, toise, zard, coal)
• venu as a whole mon should be banned as long as zardy is legal
• ally switch should be banned
• there is probably eventually a case to suspect g-molt, but not pre-tour
• wp/beat up are probably fine, but i could see an argument against beat up specifically that would warrant testing it. main thing w/ beat up rn is terrak speed tier is not actually that good, but cobalion could be nuts maybe
  

In general, regarding the discussion about banning dmax, I think fundamentally there is no reason for this tier to exist if dmax is not legal. It is not distinct enough from ss or sm dou in that case. The goal should be making tiering decisions that bring dmax to a playable state, NOT to ban it. Through test games so far, dynamax has for sure felt like a very centralizing mechanic but not one that automatically decides games. There are many ways to mitigate common max mons very effectively (screens, twave/wisp/spore/yawn, trick eject button stuff), and a lot of games come down to several turns of careful positioning before committing your dynamax for tempo. I'm happy to share replays where this is the case, just ask in the discord. At this point, I would consider arguments to ban dmax in bad faith until we at least have 1-2 tours with it legal.

 

[shadekirby321]

Sorry for double posting

I wanted to add some further thoughts about dynamax being legal. Fundamentally, dynamax completely changes the way you play the game whether its 4v4 or 6v6. There is absolutely no arguing that, and a lot of people (myself included) feel that it takes away from what we enjoy about playing pokemon. Dynamax removes a lot of your ability to adapt during a game with flexible teambuilding pieces, and puts a lot more emphasis on building a team with dedicated lines that can snowball after 1 posititve positioning turn. Often, the way to approach playing a dynamax format is to figure out your gameplan in team preview, figure out what you're maxing, what partner to put your max move boosts on, and so on. This takes away a lot from what we consider to be "playing pokemon" in other tiers, which allow a lot of room to recover after misplaying or getting unlucky/haxed. I agree with a lot of what Frixel said, and it is mostly in line with my thoughts as well. That being said, I still primarily stand by dynamax being allowed with aggressive top-end tiering decisions for at least 1 tour, maybe 2. We have a slightly different environment with a higher base mon power level, where a few of the megas can feasibly stand up to dynamaxed mons, there are z moves capable of nuking the threatening max mons, and there are real supportive glue mons that can effectively survive through dmax turns. If SSNDPL happens and dynamax looks overwhelmingly broken/unfun then of course we will make decisions accordingly.

 

[eragon]

The council has voted on Venusaur and as a result it is now banned from SS NDDOU.

	eragon	shadekirby321	schister	logice	smudge
Venusaur	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban

Venusaur's access to Chlorophyll next to Mega Charizard Y allowed to be an extremely fast and powerful attacker with the ability to output massive damage with a wide variety of strong coverage max moves and boost Charizard's damage output with Max Ooze. Further, Venusaur's access to Sleep Powder allowed it to impact the board significantly without Dynamaxing and forcing uncompetitive 50/50s regarding whether Venusaur would Dynamax/Gigantamax and attack or just attempt to put the target to sleep. Finally, Venusaur was primarily used in the context of its Gigantamax form, which allowed it to set residual damage affecting opponents for the following 4 turns, even further limiting defensive counterplay. While the Gigantamax form was the primary use case, regular Venusuar still possesses almost all of the defining traits (max ooze/sleep powder next to Mega Charizard with excellent offensive coverage) that made it uncompetitive, so the council has decided to remove Venusaur all together.

Further action regarding pokemon like G-max Charizard/Coalossal is still being considered. Per the concerns raised in this thread, we will revisit Dynamax following SSNDPL once we have a much larger sample of games, but for now Dynamax will remain legal. As such, please do not use this thread to advocate for removing it before/during the tour (this will not happen), although general discussion is of course encouraged and we appreciate everyone's feedback so far.

NEW CHALLENGE CODE (also updated in OP):

/challenge gen8doublesou @@@ NatDex Mod,!Dynamax Clause,-Arceus,-Coaching,-Dark Void,-Gengar-Mega,+Jirachi,+Kartana,+Marshadow,+Urshifu-Base,-Venusaur

 

[Schister]

Early metagame impressions/rundown:

A lot of strong early stuff can very rightfully be taken from strong VGC cores that existed in SS, a few pokemon really stand out as great dynamax abusers and its important to identify which pokemon those are and what particular aspects of their dynamax make them oppressive. However, given that the format is 6v6 over the roughly 100 test games I have watched/participated in I have noticed it is incredibly important to have strong pieces that work outside of Dynamax or alongside it as boost recievers. Having a strong defensive backbone with pokemon that can directly respond to the main max threats is critical in this tier and makes building very interesting.

Major Metagame Trends:

• Positional gameplay reigns supreme. Having strong pivots and good supportive pieces to enable your main threats into position is critical. Any team that can't rely on good damage mitigation, healing or easy pivoting is at an immediate disadvantage in this metagame and balanced gameplay bouncing off these utilities and good type synergies reigns supreme. To be less general, Very few pokemon are able to freely dynamax/setup carelessly thanks to an abundance of tools like screens, redirection, sleep moves like yawn or spore, prevalent burning jealousy/wisp distribution and the general strength of pokemon like landorus zeraora and incineroar to slow big threats down.
• Stealth Rocks are INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT! Rocks chip is extremely valuable against prevalent max airstream clickers and pivots like incineroar and punish overly defensive teams very well. Defog and Rapid spin users are also good by proxy.
• Planning around which pokemon will receive side boosts from your dynamax mons is just as important as planning your dynamax slot; this especially comes into play with megas.
• Every team should have 2 or 3 flexible slots for dynamaxing. Having flexible gameplans to wincon is good, and while some pokemon like glastrier, charizard thundurus and moltres are incredible at abusing Dynamax, teams can load up enough defensive/supportive resources that these kinds of pokemon may not be able to make enough progress on their own into some structures. (try breaking a tyranitar with Moltres)
• Status moves are incredibly powerful. Not really surprising given vgc precedent here, but with games being longer than vgc burns and sleeps can become that much more troublesome over the course of a game
• Dynamic speed control is very strong, but a bit difficult to tap into. The available tailwind setters struggle a bit at providing enough pressure into defensive pieces but prankster tailwind is prankster tailwind. Fast Ewebs/icy wind a la eleki or deoxys speed is similarly incredible
• Megas are very good, but perform more like secondary pieces to whichever pokemon you dynamax rather than main threats to build around.
• Megas are not required on every team spite their strength
• Every team should have a gameplan into Gmax airstream, quake and steelspike. These moves can transform good pokemon into massive problems and always need to be accounted for in builder. These three moves are especially potent when combined with the raw power of Megas like diancie, mence and metagross
• Weather is about as powerful as one would expect. Weather Ability pokemon make for great dynamax targets and tyranitar and torkoal are fantastic pokemon in their own right thanks to their capability into common dynamax pokemon.
• Redirection and healing abilities can be really oppressive with well-positioned dynamax pokemon. Rage powder amoongus and follow me jirachi/togekiss/blastoise/indeedee can be incredibly annoying to dispatch on their own, and healing from any of these pokemon via life dew/pollen puff/heal pulse, or floral healing from a comfey can pose big problems in battle, especially in a format so inclined around more defensive play right now.

Major Dynamax Threats:

Landorus
Easily the most splashable dynamaxxer in the format. Incredibly stats and power with 145 attack max airstream and intimidate makes landorus welcome on any team, and access to max quake and max steelspike further augments its splashability. Landorus is capable of providing any wanting ally with Speed, Defense, or Special Defense boosts with relative consistency thanks to its incredible typing and good bulk, attributes which mean that it can provide value to teams even if it's not the one dynamaxing. Landorus also has critical access to defog and stealth rocks, making it a critical player in accounting for rocks in builder and all around an incredible teammate for almost any team.

Moltres-Galar
Incredibly bulky pokemon that excels at spamming max airstream and max darkness (which reduces foes' spdef for good measure). Moltres is extremely capable of setting up nasty plots and staying alive with healing/screens support, and abusing its ability for further boosts. once this guy gets to +2 or more it can fire devastating max moves off with great effect, and even after max wears off +2 fiery wrath is no small issue to deal with after your team has been thoroughly assaulted by max airstream

Glastrier
Stat ball. one of the better max mons from vgc is also great here, with the perfect snowballing ability and outstanding coverage to boot. Access to max quake/steelspike lets it boost its defenses and a ludicrous 145 attack stat makes its ice moves something to be feared. A great pokemon for trick room comps that can carry games by itself or enable allies like diancie to go crazy with the boosts the recieve from it.

Coalossal
Residual damage Gmax with an incredible toxic ability + weakness policy combination, coal is the epitome of cheese. Coal thrives on teams where it can max early and blow some holes in the enemy and not have to worry about the later turns of the game by falling back on its teammates.

Charizard
The classic. Incredible breaking in sun off solar power, broken residual damage and a solid defensive typing, Charizard has it all. Stealth rocks target this guy particularly hard, forcing it to pair with removal or run boots (and sacrifice its life orb in doing so), Charizard doesn't really need an introduction as an absurdly powerful max pokemon, given its history of terrorizing VGC.

Zapdos
Great typing solid stats and STAB Max Airstream, Zapdos checks all the boxes to be a funny max guy. Zapdos has a number of interesting utilities outside of dynamax like eerie impulse tailwind and defog that can double as Max Guards when it's time to go big, but really Zapdos is just a really good excuse to blow things up with max airstream and enable your partner while doing so.

More strong max targets portable from vgc like thundurus exist, but I haven't seen too much of the other guys getting dedicated builds. A few DOU exclusives like WP Diancie, Kyurem-Black and Tail Glow Manaphy also pose some interest as potential max targets but how potent those pokemon become remains to be seen.


Megas

Mega Metagross
Probably the best mega in the format. Mega metagross is incredibly splashable, appreciates any of an attack, spdef, defense or speed boost it may recieve to greta effect and boasts a solid resistance to the best move in the format: Max Airstream. Meta's excellent statline and typing let it function extremely effectively as a boost reciever and general check to a number of pokemon in the format, especially Landorus and glastier, who it threatens with ice punch and iron head respectively. If your team sin't using celesteela

Mega Salamence
Mega Salamence remains one of the most disgusting statballs every put to cart, and excells at receiving defense buffs from max pokemon. Roost/dragon dance with a spdef boost late game is a lurking horror to deal with in endgames and tailwind off intimidate in its base form is excellent in a dynamic speed format for how fast it is.

Mega-Diancie
Diamond storm is an insanely threatening move and Magic Bounce is very useful in a format where rocks get so much value. Diancie excels at recieving max quake spdef boosts and becoming incredibly difficult to remove. Further access to fast encore, solid coverage in moonblast and earth power and just generally having 700 bst makes diancie a great option on some teams.

Charizard-Y
Strong as ever, Zard-Y provides weather control and decent utility with options like wisp and tailwind. Venusaur was an absolute terrorist with this pokemon, being a terrifying gmax threat with vine lash and providing Zard with special attack boosts of STAB max poison. With venusaur banned, however, Zard is a fair bit less scary; though still likely a good option for teams that appreciate the sun and damage output.

Mega Kangaskhan
Kang finds itself as less of a solo-threat and more of a progress maker into bulky teams. Seismic toss is great flat damage into support pokemon and screens and kang can become incredibly difficult to KO with support of its own in defense boosts from max allies or some of the plentiful healing in the format. However, lack of resistances and relative inability to snowball makes kang a good bit less desirable than the aforementioned megas.


Looking forward to the tournament, format is very fun and seeing how dynamax plays in dou with all the extra tools of natdex and the later SS DLCs has been very fun so far

 

[bumboclaat]

I'm going to assume the OP was copied from SV which is why Commander is included on the banlist. To preface, I'm not a doubles player nor will I be in the forseeable future and this post is spurred by the concerns raised by Frixel. I agree with the essence of the post, but am not in anyway qualified to comment on the details given my nonexistent doubles experience. With the benefit of hindsight, I think I failed in my responsibility as a host to conduct proper due diligence.

I should not be learning about some of the concerns Frixel has raised from their post, but because I went into the doubles cord and verified any information I've been given myself. That is on me. For example, the discord poll on Dynmax was mentioned, but I assumed this was based on the opinions of 'qualified voters' rather than the general populus. There isn't a cut and dry way of deciding who counts of qualified, but I trust that tier leadership is familiar enough with the potential playerbase to exercise discretion.

I am beyond impressed with the Doubles community to essentially materialize a tier and playerbase within a short time. Smudge and the rest of the council deserve a ton of praise for this hurculean effort. It more or less confirms what I've heard about the doubles community: if a doubles tier exists they'll play it. Hearing and seeing are two different things and I doubt many other communities on Smogon are capable of such mobilization.

After seeing this, there was never any doubt that doubles would be included in SSNDPL. I never had any intent of excluding doubles, but the only concern I wanted addressed was an assurance that the council was willing to address dynamax should it present itself as an issue. Generational mechanics obviously have a much higher bar for tiering action. At the same time, doubles has been given extensive leniency in to regard developing the tier via this tournament that has and would not be extended to other formats. This was my primary motivator for requesting that tiering action would be considered should dynamax present issues that effect the competitive integrity of the tier. I've included a log of my part of this conversation in the spoiler below.

Log

06/05/2025 00:43​

I'm fine w doubles being included, but I'd at least like confirmation of how they'd move to address dynamax if needed. i.e. are they willing to quickban it if it is an issue?

06/05/2025 00:47​

I guess, but given this is going to be a tour only tier I'm not sure how else you'd address it? Hopefully dynamax is fine or at least fine enough for 10 games, my concern is more if it isn't

06/05/2025 00:49​

I don't know enough about doubles to trust that it is, but I do trust their leadership

I'd also like to clarify that nobody from SSNDDOU leadership partook in this conversation. As mentioned, I'm happy to see doubles included this tournament, but this my only point of contention and it is minor in the grand scheme of things. I'm hoping that SSNDPL serves as a springboard to create a thriving SSNDDOU playerbase, but I also consider preemptively limiting the tools at your disposal to improve the tier to be a poor decision. Realistically, this doesn't matter as I'm doubtful that dynamax is likely to prove such an unhealthy presence in the tier that there will be sufficient demmand to quickban it. That being said, the rigidity of this approach is something that can potentially impact the long-term growth of the tier. I'm sorry that this post is a bit of a debbie downer, but I would not have made it had the topic not already been raised in this thread. On a more positive note, I'm looking forward to whatever heinous teams y'all cook up for this tour and hope that this is the start of a thriving tier!

 

[gephicka]

Wanted to write out some thoughts about the tier after playing a few games:

Dynamax

to me, dynamax has felt like a really enjoyable and interesting part of the tier so far, creating a good position to max + getting the most out of your max both as an offensive tool and for boost stacking has felt really skill-expressive and healthy in all of the games that i've played. it feels a lot less polarizing than in Gen 8 VGC because the format & game duration is greatly expanded and due to the presence of rocks in the tier.

Stealth Rocks

speaking of, stealth rocks serve as almost the great equalizer of the format— it prevents Incineroar, Landorus-T, and powerful max-airstream users like Moltres & Charizard-Gmax (and yard/mence to an extent!) from becoming overbearing while also keeping Regieleki and the Urshifu formes in check because of its ability to break sashes. SS being the boots generation also offers a really interesting dynamic, with boots becoming an even more viable item on mons like Incineroar & other rocks weak mons. this of course comes with the very fair trade-off of losing your item slot— especially hard for something like Incineroar.

Team Structures

if you have any experience with gen 8 vgc, the team structures & ideas that work there are not entirely as transferrable as you would think. for example, a lot of SS VGC teams would have upwards of 3-4 dynamax candidates within a given game, something that NDDOU does not reward in the slightest. because your dynamax is comparably so short in comparison to a 4v4 game and you can't just leave a max option on the bench, running more than 2 dedicated max options feels pretty punishing— especially since a lot of max options (Landorus-T, Pult) have really bad moves outside of max that can make them liabilities if they are not maxed— this problem being slightly alleviated for Landorus-T and Thundurus-I because of their access to Knock Off due to natdex rules. structures like this that worked well in VGC 2021 don't particularly do as well because of both the role of rocks in the format and how many max-options they stack. all of Glastrier, Rotom, and Thundurus really want to dynamax & are almost lame-ducks if they are unable to.

overall, while i doubt i'll actually get drafted, i have been really enjoying the format & think it's a really dynamic (heh) and interesting metagame. dynamax feels super important, yet also has a lot of skill expression associated with it as far as knowing when to max, who to max, etc. even thought there are definitely a few cheap things left still (Z Regieleki & Coalossal feel particularly stupid to me), i'm really excited to play more and see how the format progresses!

 

[shadekirby321]

I'm going to assume the OP was copied from SV which is why Commander is included on the banlist. To preface, I'm not a doubles player nor will I be in the forseeable future and this post is spurred by the concerns raised by Frixel. I agree with the essence of the post, but am not in anyway qualified to comment on the details given my nonexistent doubles experience. With the benefit of hindsight, I think I failed in my responsibility as a host to conduct proper due diligence.

I should not be learning about some of the concerns Frixel has raised from their post, but because I went into the doubles cord and verified any information I've been given myself. That is on me. For example, the discord poll on Dynmax was mentioned, but I assumed this was based on the opinions of 'qualified voters' rather than the general populus. There isn't a cut and dry way of deciding who counts of qualified, but I trust that tier leadership is familiar enough with the potential playerbase to exercise discretion.

I am beyond impressed with the Doubles community to essentially materialize a tier and playerbase within a short time. Smudge and the rest of the council deserve a ton of praise for this hurculean effort. It more or less confirms what I've heard about the doubles community: if a doubles tier exists they'll play it. Hearing and seeing are two different things and I doubt many other communities on Smogon are capable of such mobilization.

After seeing this, there was never any doubt that doubles would be included in SSNDPL. I never had any intent of excluding doubles, but the only concern I wanted addressed was an assurance that the council was willing to address dynamax should it present itself as an issue. Generational mechanics obviously have a much higher bar for tiering action. At the same time, doubles has been given extensive leniency in to regard developing the tier via this tournament that has and would not be extended to other formats. This was my primary motivator for requesting that tiering action would be considered should dynamax present issues that effect the competitive integrity of the tier. I've included a log of my part of this conversation in the spoiler below.

Log

06/05/2025 00:43​

I'm fine w doubles being included, but I'd at least like confirmation of how they'd move to address dynamax if needed. i.e. are they willing to quickban it if it is an issue?

06/05/2025 00:47​

I guess, but given this is going to be a tour only tier I'm not sure how else you'd address it? Hopefully dynamax is fine or at least fine enough for 10 games, my concern is more if it isn't

06/05/2025 00:49​

I don't know enough about doubles to trust that it is, but I do trust their leadership

I'd also like to clarify that nobody from SSNDDOU leadership partook in this conversation. As mentioned, I'm happy to see doubles included this tournament, but this my only point of contention and it is minor in the grand scheme of things. I'm hoping that SSNDPL serves as a springboard to create a thriving SSNDDOU playerbase, but I also consider preemptively limiting the tools at your disposal to improve the tier to be a poor decision. Realistically, this doesn't matter as I'm doubtful that dynamax is likely to prove such an unhealthy presence in the tier that there will be sufficient demmand to quickban it. That being said, the rigidity of this approach is something that can potentially impact the long-term growth of the tier. I'm sorry that this post is a bit of a debbie downer, but I would not have made it had the topic not already been raised in this thread. On a more positive note, I'm looking forward to whatever heinous teams y'all cook up for this tour and hope that this is the start of a thriving tier!

I wanted to make a longer post addressing some of our mindsets going into tiering decisions (specifically around dmax being legal), but ended up not having much time. For now I just wanted to clarify that we are completely open to taking fast action on dmax if it proves to make the tier uncompetitive. So far, in our testing and room tours it has seemed to us that this would not be necessary, and so a lot of the response to frixel's initial post was rooted in a "we have played the tier and you havent, just trust us" mindset, which was not communicated very effectively. What we don't want to happen is for action to be taken on the tier based on the historical data of an entirely different format, based on justifications that we have not seen applied in testing.

Trust that we are aware of dynamax's history in SS tiers, the justification that went into banning it, and its inherent flaws as a mechanic. Probably no one on the council will object to a qb if it proves to be uncompetitive in a tour setting, but that eventuality just isnt something we're seeing right now. We definitely dont want this to be an uncompetitive dead tour slot, so especially this early in the tier's life almost any action will be taken definitively and quickly as long as we can justify doing so.

 

[AIRedzone]

I've been playing a bunch of games and wanted to make a quick lil (quite unstructured) post on my initial thoughts. Go read Schister's post above to get a baseline idea of what the format is about.

1. Offense is king. In most cases, defensive play is insufficient to keep up with the overwhelming offensive pressure available - Urshifus, Stakataka, Megagross, Glastrier, Lando-T, and more. Screens and redirection go a long way, but can be shut down by support mons that are very easy to fit on most teams (Taunt on the fake out pivots, helping hand, etc).
   • Rain has an obscenely high ceiling - Zapdos, Regieleki, (Choice Band) Urshifu-R, (Hurricane) Kingdra, Dracovish, Megagross, Mega Pert etc can all break + the nonmegas can boost with Dmax, supported by Politoed, Pelipper, Rillaboom, Amoonguss, and Jirachi.
   • Hardroom and semiroom have several fun broken-ish pieces - Stakataka, Glastrier, Jirachi. Stak in particular is a highly potent Dmax candidate; though it can be slowed down by intim-cycling, none of the main intim mons want to switch into any of its attacks. Semiroom can add in Tapu Fini, Mega Mence, and more to further clear the path for Stak (or clean up after it).
2. Cheese feeds into offense, which, as noted above, is king. There are several Dmax candidates with several partners that can activate Weakness Policy: non-mega Metagross, Coalossal, Stak, non-mega Diancie, and GMolt can easily snowball with a side-WP activation from Bulldoze, Aqua jet, Draining Kiss, and more. Blastoise is perhaps the best support mon for this role - Aqua Jet/Bulldoze to activate WP, Follow Me, Icy Wind, Fake Out, Yawn etc to shut down anything on the other side. The distribution for these moves is wide - you can even throw Bulldoze on stuff like Mega Mence, making this strategy a little too accessible and a little too annoying to fully account for (unless people plan to start carrying Haze).
3. DMax is bordering on unhealthy. I don't think it's quite as broken as I initially thought it'd be, but I think further meta development will mean people will figure out how to break it further rather than deal with it further. Stat balls like Megagross are required to withstand the onslaught from Max moves + boosted partner attacks, as even smart pivoting falters into rocks + partners that cover common switch-ins. I've always heard from people that getting into position and being the first to click DMax is the best way to set up a snowball; I've tended to use DMax reactively to take out opposing partner mons and preserve health. The latter approach has worked out relatively well in test games, suggesting to me that if you can get rid of the benefactors of stat boosts, you stand a better chance of resisting DMax. I'm sure I'll gain more insight into DMax strategies from tour play, but for now, I think it's important to look at the similarities and differences to SS VGC.
   • While it's true that you probably shouldn't lift an SS VGC team wholesale and expect to win in SS NDDOU, you can most definitely take those teams, swap some utility options for more offense (or some offence mons on the 4-5 dmax option teams for support mons) and end up with a reasonably good team.
4. Any format where Protect is the best move is a bad format - please help me find a move that is better than Protect here because this is fun as hell.
5. Things to build with beyond the top mons mentioned in previous posts in this thread: all the ultra beasts, underused megas (Camerupt, Mawile, Steelix), snow, psyspam.

 

[gephicka]

Any format where Protect is the best move is a bad format - please help me find a move that is better than Protect here because this is fun as hell.

ally switch

Cheese feeds into offense, which, as noted above, is king. There are several Dmax candidates with several partners that can activate Weakness Policy: non-mega Metagross, Coalossal, Stak, non-mega Diancie, and GMolt can easily snowball with a side-WP activation from Bulldoze, Aqua jet, Draining Kiss, and more. Blastoise is perhaps the best support mon for this role - Aqua Jet/Bulldoze to activate WP, Follow Me, Icy Wind, Fake Out, Yawn etc to shut down anything on the other side. The distribution for these moves is wide - you can even throw Bulldoze on stuff like Mega Mence, making this strategy a little too accessible and a little too annoying to fully account for (unless people plan to start carrying Haze).

i will say i think a lot of WP sweepers are a lot cheesier & worse than they are in VGC— at least the ones that aren't able to airstream or otherwise boost their speed. WP Meta feels rly slow for the metagame & very hard to position unless you're immediately dynamaxing it which is uh... sus.

GMolt and Coal are the main exceptions to this as they get airstream and steam engine + broken volcalith, but to me coal comes with other drawbacks like being pidgeonholed into immediate max (not always a bad thing since, again, broken volcalith, but still definitely not great for it). But, i think if these two are broken off of the merits of these sets than they should just take the Venu path and get banned.

i think the TR sweepers like Stak and Diancie have some reason to be policy, but i would rather just use more consistent items like LO/goggles/etc rather than sacrificing a moveslot on dusclops for bulldoze cheese

 

[shadekirby321]

The council has voted on Ally Switch, and as a result it is now banned in SS NDDOU.

	eragon	shadekirby321	schister	logice	smudge
Ally Switch	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban

Ally switch has proven to be a rather uncompetitive move in this tier, given the spread of pokemon that learn it as well as the general lack of downsides to clicking it. Using ally switch on mons like porygon2, dusclops, cresselia next to a dynamax threat to force 50/50s from the opponent is unfun and uninteractive, and can snowball pretty hard when those mons are receiving defensive boosts from dynamax moves as well. Dynamax is already a pretty polarizing mechanic, and ally switch removing a lot of confident counterplay options can make it much more overwhelming if you don't call the ally switch turns correctly.

Gmax Charizard and Coalossal are still under investigation, as well as Beat up. Additionally, action on dynamax as a whole mechanic is still being discussed and games are being closely watched. Aside from beat up, the other items on this list will likely require a higher sample size of games before any definitive action is taken.

Tagging dhelmise to implement the ally switch ban, as well as the previously decided Venusaur ban in the now challengeable (!!) SS NDDOU format on ps

 

[gephicka]

hi, would like to go over our good pal beat up before we start getting games for SSNDPL

as i'm sure most people are unaware, expanded ND movepools gave basically every physical mon in the game access to Aerial Ace. now, normally this wouldn't be a particularly bad thing, however because of Dynamax specifically, any physical flying coverage at all is immediately more powerful than it would be otherwise.

the biggest place where this becomes an issue is in the case of our good pal Terrakion. see, Terrakion in SS VGC did not originally have access to airstream, only its significantly weaker siblings Cobalion and Virizion had access to it & because of that were actually usable despite their lower base attack.

access to max airstream breaks terrakion. giving a mon with that much attack in addition to a 6x attack boost from beat up takes it from probably fine to insanely broken. an immediate +6 attack to any justified mon was probably grounds enough for ban already, but Terrakion gaining access to airstream pushes this way too far.

airstream terrak

EDIT: my power went out in the middle of this...

 

[eragon]

the council has voted to unanimously ban beat up

	eragon	shadekirby321	schister	logice	smudge
beat up	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban

Long known to be an extremely powerful threat in dynamax formats (especially in 6v6), Beat Up has been on the radar for the since the creation of the tier, allowing for extremely quick swings in games and allowing Justified pokemon like Cobalion and Terrakion to get to +6 attack in one turn, dynamax to increase their survivability, and attempt to sweep the game from there. Previously, there was some room for doubt as both main dynamax options (Cobalion and Terrakion) traditionally have had fairly significant weaknesses (more physically bulky pokemon/damage reduction for Cobalion, opposing speed control for Terrakion). However, the recent discovery a few days ago that Terrakion gets access to Aerial Ace (and thus access to Max Airstream, the strongest base dynamax move in the game) in this tier has completely pushed it over the edge- see this replay. While Terrakion has been the main culprit, both Cobalion and Terrakion have seen play and this strategy is inherently uncompetitive and punishing of teams that do not possess specific counterplay (like redirection). As such, we are opting to ban Beat Up as a whole.

tagging dhelmise to implement (thanks in advance!)

 

[gephicka]

hi, dedicating yap powers here again

i believe that all of the residual-damage Gigantamax Pokemon are broken and should have action taken to ban them and/or their Gigantamax formes immediately.

In addition to the already strong Charizard that is likely next on the chopping block, Coalossal and Blastoise are also both incredible users of their Gigantamax formes, with Coalossal being able to take advantage of the tride-and-true self-proc weakness policy and Blastoise being able to Gigantamax in addition to its already excellent support movepool (Yawn, Flip Turn, Follow Me, Fake Out). Volcalith/Wildfire/Cannonade are extremely uninteractive and uncompetitive mechanics because of the immense amount of damage dealt by them per turn in combination with the already strong traits of the given Gigantamax Pokemon.


As we have already seen in a few of the games played in SSNDPL and otherwise, Charizard has cemented itself as one of the premier Gigantamax options for its insane damage output coupled with its access to Gmax Wildfire. Gmax Wilfire is what truly takes Charizard over the edge, it gets such an immense value in comparison to other Dynamax options because in addition to the 3 turns it gets to deploy Solar Power-boosted Nuclear Bombs onto the enemy team, it also spreads 66% of both of their Pokemon's health. This is of course somewhat mitigated by Dynamax, but that's another problem: these residual effects force Dynamax even more effectively than your own Dynamax— in a tier that already disincentives defensive Dynamax. The bulk of a game in this format will be positioning your max in order to most efficiently force progress into your opponents, and residual effects trivialize this by extending and expanding the effects of Dynamax beyond its 3 turn duration.

Take, for example, Tyo's four-turn evisceration of Frixel this week in SSNDPL. Charizard was able to lead off and immediately force progress not only through its Dynamax, but with its use of Gmax Wildfire to chip away at Frixel's mons. Did you notice that two out of the three KOs taken in that game were actually from Gmax Wildfire rather than Charizard itself? Charizard actually failed to pick up Kingdra, which normally would have allowed Kingdra and entire additional turn of Dynamax with which Frixel would have been able to swing the game back in their direction. Charizard was able to effectively push damage in the first place, absolutely, but what truly took it over the edge was absolutely Wildfire.


Coalossal is broken for a lot of the same reasons as Zard is, but it comes with a few trade-offs. First off, the reliance upon a partner in order to deal significant damage can be a notable hinderance and its rocks weakness in conjunction with its uselessness outside of max leads it to being the sole max candidate for any given team that its on. However, Volcalith is ignored by a comparitively small and uncommon pool of Pokemon in comparison to the other two legal DOT effects & Coalossal's unique speed tier with steam engine and immense damage output with policy more than make up for its mediocre BST.


initially i thought this guy would not be broken at all, but after building a team with it i'm highly impressed with its performance so far. While it's not anywhere near as threatening as the other two mons on this list, it's easily able to soak up a lot of hits and deal great damage back while maxed. Paired with another max option like Landorus-T allows it to truly shine, as Blastoise's support options allow it to be just as good nonmaxxed as it is maxed. I think the problem with Blastoise is that, while you aren't outputting the immense offensive output you'd get from Zard or Coal, you don't even have to dynamax Blastoise to get a lot of great value out of it.

I have two example games using Blastoise (one against Schister !)
G1
G2
I think these two games do a great job of illustrating how versatile Blastoise is. You're able to use it to Fake Out on its first turn out to secure a free turn for your partner only for it to Dynamax the next turn and swing the momentum back in your favor, while, again, applying massive amounts of pressure with Cannonade. The first game is a great example of how Blastoise doesn't even always need to Dyna to get value, with it basically stopping the PUPing Kanga in its tracks for two turns and allowing the boosted Metagross to sweep through. Fake Out + Follow me on a mon that can also unleash a big progress-making Gigantamax is too powerful. Rather than just be a great support mon, it also serves to force damage with its Gmax move while taking advantage of its good bulk in order to damage trade through max.

Coalossal vs Blastoise
Within this game, we see both Cannonade and Volcalith put in a lot of work. With Blastoise, I am able to Dynamax and Cannonade Pengu's Ferrothorn that at that point was likely going to set up and sweep my entire team, getting rid of it in a matter of two turns due to its vulnerability to Cannonade. From there, Pengu's Volcalith KOs a weakened Mega Metagross and could have lost me the game if Regieleki has taken another turn of it— with my Cannonade also finishing off Dragapult. These effects made a massive difference in swinging the momentum of the game and allowed me to take a leg up in a way I would argue requires no real skill or interactivity. Cannonade was able to clear the Ferrothorn that I had neglected checking in the builder and actually win me the game off of the back of its damage.

Overall, I would argue that the damage over time effects from Gmax Charizard, Coalossal, and Blastoise are far too powerful for the tier. They make an ungodly amount of progress off of just one turn of Dynamax that has no real trade off. Volcalith/Cannonade/Wildfire will almost always provide a disproportionate amount of value within any given game, it genuinely takes a lot of the skill expression out of the tier by severely limiting both the builder and through how much it encourages Dynamax due to the insane amount of damage accumulated during the effects. The fact that the effects themselves last longer than the 3 Dynamax turns even further breaks the dynamics of the tier. Of course, you could theoretically argue something similar about the boosts acquired via Dynamax— however these effects require careful management of Dynamax turns to get the most out of and do not actively force defensive Dynamax in the same way that the DOT Gmax moves do. Maximizing the usage of your Dynamax turns is central to the tier, and the DOT effects simply give too much value for only one turn of Dynamax.

EDIT: ftr, i understand that there are some issues with banning specific Gmax formes and that Charizard is already being looked at by the council, I just wanted to state my general opinion on all 3 of them regardless of that

 

[shadekirby321]

The council has voted on Guard Split, and as a result it is now banned in SS NDDOU.

	eragon	shadekirby321	schister	logice	smudge
Guard Split	ban	ban	abstain	ban	ban

Over the last couple of weeks Guard Split + chansey has proven to be a pretty unhealthy strategy for the tier, getting 2 wins in SSNDPL where the opponent just had no counterplay and got fished in team preview. After a Guard Split from Shuckle, Chansey ends up with a whopping effective 250 base hp, 117 base defense, and 167 base spdef plus eviolite and takes no damage from anything for the rest of the game. The big difference in this tier as compared to other doubles tiers where this strategy is legal is that the shuckle chansey player also gets to utilize dynamax to make major progress against many of the common counterplay options to a strategy like this. Leftovers fini dies to seismic toss + gmax smite from hatterene, removing misty terrain for chansey to safely click toxic for the rest of the game. Skill swap magic bounce also prevents things like roar, whirlwind, taunt, spore, and other options that would slow chansey down. Chansey can opt into its own heal bell to beat opposing toxic clickers. Overall, consistent counterplay tends to involve really underused options like physical phasing (dragon tail, circle throw), perish song, or tricking a choice item which all feel a bit hard to fit onto teams and get off reliably versus the threat of dynamax.

While shuckle is the most effective guard split user, there are many other users that still allow the same type of matchup fishing to happen, and we feel that it is unhealthy and unfun for the tier for this to continue to be allowed. For these reasons, we decided guard split as a whole should be banned.

Here are a couple replays from SSNDPL that show the general strategy and how uninteractive it is
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexdoubles-2384885027
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldexdoubles-2389134037

Tagging dhelmise to implement, thanks!

 

[eragon]

After internal discussion and close attention to SSNDPL, the council has decided to vote on Charizard, Weakness Policy, and Regieleki. As a result, all 3 are now banned from SS Natdex DOU.

	eragon	shadekirby321	schister	logice	smudge
Charizard	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban
Weakness Policy	ban	ban	ban	ban	ban
Regieleki	ban	ban	ban	dnb	ban

Charizard has been maybe the most dominant and versatile Pokemon in the tier since its creation, thanks to being a dominant force with both its Gigantamax form and with Mega Charizard Y. Gigantamax Charizard is the primary culprit thanks to being able to output massive damage with Solar Power-boosted Gmax Wildfire and set residual damage for 4 turns, forcing teams to carry significant sun counterplay and heavily constraining the teambuilder to deal with its immense offensive output. However, Mega Charizard Y was a powerful enabler of many Chlorophyll dynamax options, including initially Venusaur (who had to be banned on its own). Since then, Charizard has found use with several other Chlorophyll options and proved to be extremely powerful when paired with them as well. Finally, the council felt even regular dynamax Charizard could potentially replicate most of the issues with Gigantamax Charizard, thanks to the impressive Solar Power boost and maintaining access to Max Airstream, the most powerful standard Max move. As a result, the council felt the cleanest solution (and most correct move tiering policy wise) was to ban Charizard entirely.

Weakness Policy, similarly to Beat Up, has long been a contentious staple of Dynamax formats and was a key part of SS ND DOU. It found use on a wide variety of dynamax targets, especially Metagross and Moltres-Galar. While not lacking counterplay, Weakness Policy simply made it extremely easy to push the damage output of almost any dynamax pokemon beyond a reasonable level while lacking many of the downsides the item has in other formats. The council felt this item made it too easy to swing games and was simply too uncompetitive for the tier in the context of Dynamax. We will of course continue to keep an eye on the Dynamax mechanic going forward, but currently we feel that Weakness Policy has been the main issue with the mechanic and that the mechanic will be much more manageable without the threat of a random pokemon getting a free +2/+2 boost and being able to run away with a game.

Regieleki has perhaps been the strongest Pokemon in the tier the last few weeks, thanks to gaining access to Electrium Z in SS ND. Regieleki had a wide variety of utility options but was still always capable of unleashing a Z Move (boosted by 50% thanks to gen 8 Transistor) and OHKO'ing almost the entire tier barring resists. Regieleki was too fast and too strong for the tier to handle, even with the presence of Dynamax, and was fairly easy to include on teams thanks to being the most proficient Z-Move user in the tier by far. As a result, the majority of the council felt it was far too strong for the tier and needed to be removed.

tagging dhelmise to implement, thanks in advance!

 

[gephicka]

they've discovered a way to invalidate my entire builder with one slate

 

[Clas]

why is venu still banned now? with zard gone (which is a whole different can of worms bc that was banned over the gmax form for a hypothetical) venu now no longer has an actual teammate to give insane boosts to which means that its just not broken? venu going altogether was really confusing although slightly understandable with yard around but without that around it just shouldnt be banned whatsoever icl

 

[Schister]

why is venu still banned now? with zard gone (which is a whole different can of worms bc that was banned over the gmax form for a hypothetical) venu now no longer has an actual teammate to give insane boosts to which means that its just not broken? venu going altogether was really confusing although slightly understandable with yard around but without that around it just shouldnt be banned whatsoever icl

On the topic of banning gigantamax forms rather than the entire pokemon, doing so proved troublesome policy-wise and we opted to take the collateral rather than spend months deliberating over it (the charizard vote was delayed enough over this reason).

While venusaur's best partner was absolutely Mega-Charizard-Y, torkoal is not a bad one as a generally decent pokemon in these formats with burning jealousy, rocks, spin and yawn utility and of course was the main partner of choice for venusaur in vgc formats where mega charizard did not exist. Venusaur was banned as quickly as it was because max sludge was only one part of a boarder puzzle that made it such an oppressive force. Max vinelash's residual damage is extremely oppressive and the only type that doesn't take the chip is blasted by fire moves in sun, Chlorophyll allows venusaur to become the fastest thing in the format without any additional setup, leveraging its max moves with impunity or opting to play sleep powder minigames to be even more disruptive, and it's high natural bulk makes it incredibly consistent at boosting itself with max sludge and remaining a threat well after max is over while simultaneously having made large amounts of progress as with vinelash.

The only reason to unban venusaur is if we saw torkoal as a large enough downgrade in a partner for venu that it warrants a retest, but given the power of venusaur itself, the fact that torkoal is already a good pokemon in the metagame and the fact that banning just gmax forms seems off the table I don't see a retest happening until the metagame at least settles down a bit.

I know the bans have been a bit disruptive and some of them seem a little obtuse but I hope I can share a bit of perspective from the council as we try to make the metagame playable with dynamax while we stilk have the-at least personally suprising amount of-momentum gained from the tier's creation. However as long as I am on council I will be happy to answer any questions on tiering for the sake of transparency

 

[Clas]

i still dont get how banning gmaxes is against policy; they should be treated the same way as megas, no? i do agree that gmax venu is completely broken but i was moreso saying that non-gmax is fine (sleep powder is dumb but what can you do)

if someone higher up can clarify why gmaxes are included in the list with stuff like items/abilities then please enlighten me but theres only a couple broken/banworthy gmaxes and its not restricting a pokemon from using dmax as a mechanic either, which is the only other thing i can think of that would be triggering policy issues

 

[Kangaskhan used sky drop]

allay switch got banned is extremely good，venusaur、charlizard、eleki finally got what they deserve，and some disgusting strategy lost its core move。but……could we give beat up&weakness policy a second chance?
like，beat up justified is a very old strategy，old enough when i was watching ash pikachu just fuked up by a snivy。people know how to deal with it，and it falled in gen9，do we actually ban it since we dont even have a ladder?（by the way，someone said beat up op actually got totally Worng。in gen8 vgc，we use cobalion couple with whimscott，okay?because cobalion can airstream by move bouce，okay?and i dont know，he said“Terrakion，anyone?” with parentheses like he is the only one know this kind of thing，but he is the wrong one，it just……U know，heh……）
and weakness policy。weakness policy played a key member during the whole gen8 whatever 64double or 63single（I guess?I dont play single，pls someone could tell me）like the half environment was built by weakness policy，we saw it in reginal dex，you know，tyranitar、coalossal、Rhyperior。nationaldex we got metagross、glastrier as good dynamaxer。and in violence restrict rules，we still got Solgaleo＆CIR，solgaleo such a mediocre legendary even showed up in WCS。I mean，do these pokemon really broke the game?shouldnt those flying airstream stuff and somekind of sword holding dog that connive her wired face looking brother bulling poor innocent little white pony and pony rider the broken one?heck，again，we dont even have a ladder!at least test it in public!
I guess thats all i want to say?（god damn，finally over。like some how writing a fuking english test paper composition）