Metagame SV PU Metagame Discussion - Indigo Disk (Tiering survey @ #16)

:dragalge: :articuno-galar:
Now that we have 1 less Steel-type, I think these guys have become a lot more than just overwhelming in builder, though I wouldn't go as far as calling Guno broken just yet, but Dragalge is definitely a problem. Adaptability Draco is sooo fucking strong, Poison being its other type also provides a defensive profile that Goodra can't compete with, making Drag echelons better than our other resident Draco dropper. Guno is something I've been advocating to be looked at for a while and I hope something does happen to it but honestly I think us losing Rajah is super giga ass so the tier's been thrown for a pretty big loop and not really Guno's fault. Though I haven't seen many on ladder so I'm a bit surpried and maybe my concerns are misplaced.

:Goodra:
His stocks are up now that Rajah is gone.

:slowbro-galar: :milotic:
Glad to have these guys back, though I feel like they aren't as strong as before. Maybe that's just because Drag and Guno beat both of them so it feels a little null but once the tier settles more I imagine they'll start climbing the VR rank quickly. Glowbro imo is probably less better as a wincon nowadays and is better just being annoying by spreading status.

:skuntank: :zoroark:
I agree with Gulch in that Dark-types are so good, but that's really nothing new. Not many Dark resists in the tier and 0 mons that want to actually take a Knock Off besides opposing Skuntank lol. I don't rate the other Dark pokemon as anything noteworthy tho. Bombirdier has felt pretty bad for a while and Hisui Qwil only acts as a Guno/Florges check until they tera so it feels like the utility it provides is on a timer.

:espeon:
Honestly this thing is ass, even on PsyTerrain I don't rate it that highly...it just dies to everything and needs tera to break past certain things while also getting revenged by almost anything. As a mon that fits on (imo) mainly HO/Offense structures, you can't really pivot into things that revenge like Brux/Ambi/Lazzle/Scarf Hecid so yea idk not a huge fan of Espeon but its cool to have.

:Typhlosion-hisui:
I think Typh is not good but in the same vein Fire-types are just really strong right now and have been for a while so you can make a case for it. Ignoring that we just got a new Fire resist in Dragalge but still.

:toxtricity:
Gary come home....losing one of our Scarf/Speed control options suck but we'll manage. Tox wasn't that amazing but definitely not bad either.

Glad the tier has gotten new drops it finally feels really fresh again! I'm excited to see how the tier shapes up from here and during PUPL!
 
I don’t follow much PU, but I’ve been curious about Shaymin.

IMG_9774.gif


Venusaur and Wo-Chien have always been the Grass-types of choice. Venusaur has the valuable secondary typing giving it resistances to Florges’ Moonblast and Pawmot’s dual STABS, plus Chlorophyll puts in work on manual Sun. Wo-Chien is a defensive behemoth who lives forever with Leech Seed + Tera.

But Shaymin has a merit of unique advantages in the tier.

1: Shaymin naturally outpaces the base 80s and 90s of the tier, like Skuntank, Bombirdier, Arcanine, Guno, Qwilfish, Milotic, Hyphlosion, Tatsugiri, etc.

2: Milo Scald and Bellibolt Toxic are very annoying moves for teams to switch into, but Shaymin can comfortably shrug those off with Natural Cure.

3: Venusaur’s secondary typing means in can’t come in on Earthquakes, but Shaymin’s pure Grass typing can reliably come in on grounds like Rhydon, Mudsdale, and Palossand.

4: Healing Wish is rare in PU, and Shaymin having it lets the li’l hedgehog fit on more offensive structures that Venu/Chien don’t find themselves in.

Shaymin @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers/Life Orb/Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Ground/Poison/Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Air Slash/Dazzling Gleam
- Healing Wish

Not sure what Shaymin commonly runs in PU, but I assume its something like this, with Earth Power to Fires, and Air Slash for opposing Grasses or D-Gleam for Dragons like Goodra/Altaria.

What does the PU playerbase think?
 
I don’t follow much PU, but I’ve been curious about Shaymin.

View attachment 747763

Venusaur and Wo-Chien have always been the Grass-types of choice. Venusaur has the valuable secondary typing giving it resistances to Florges’ Moonblast and Pawmot’s dual STABS, plus Chlorophyll puts in work on manual Sun. Wo-Chien is a defensive behemoth who lives forever with Leech Seed + Tera.

But Shaymin has a merit of unique advantages in the tier.

1: Shaymin naturally outpaces the base 80s and 90s of the tier, like Skuntank, Bombirdier, Arcanine, Guno, Qwilfish, Milotic, Hyphlosion, Tatsugiri, etc.

2: Milo Scald and Bellibolt Toxic are very annoying moves for teams to switch into, but Shaymin can comfortably shrug those off with Natural Cure.

3: Venusaur’s secondary typing means in can’t come in on Earthquakes, but Shaymin’s pure Grass typing can reliably come in on grounds like Rhydon, Mudsdale, and Palossand.

4: Healing Wish is rare in PU, and Shaymin having it lets the li’l hedgehog fit on more offensive structures that Venu/Chien don’t find themselves in.

Shaymin @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers/Life Orb/Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Ground/Poison/Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Air Slash/Dazzling Gleam
- Healing Wish

Not sure what Shaymin commonly runs in PU, but I assume its something like this, with Earth Power to Fires, and Air Slash for opposing Grasses or D-Gleam for Dragons like Goodra/Altaria.

What does the PU playerbase think?
I thought you were pretty much on the money only thing missing perhaps is that Sub + Seed is a genuine option that can cause some headaches such a set that outspeeds base 80 & 90’s can be super hard to lock down.

Fwiw: Scarf is more a set of the past seeing it is a true rarity, more commonly seen is a leaf storm + eject pack with coverage move of choice and healing wish. One more thing to note is that Rock is arguably much better than poison as far as Tera types go.
 
I don’t follow much PU, but I’ve been curious about Shaymin.

View attachment 747763

Venusaur and Wo-Chien have always been the Grass-types of choice. Venusaur has the valuable secondary typing giving it resistances to Florges’ Moonblast and Pawmot’s dual STABS, plus Chlorophyll puts in work on manual Sun. Wo-Chien is a defensive behemoth who lives forever with Leech Seed + Tera.

But Shaymin has a merit of unique advantages in the tier.

1: Shaymin naturally outpaces the base 80s and 90s of the tier, like Skuntank, Bombirdier, Arcanine, Guno, Qwilfish, Milotic, Hyphlosion, Tatsugiri, etc.

2: Milo Scald and Bellibolt Toxic are very annoying moves for teams to switch into, but Shaymin can comfortably shrug those off with Natural Cure.

3: Venusaur’s secondary typing means in can’t come in on Earthquakes, but Shaymin’s pure Grass typing can reliably come in on grounds like Rhydon, Mudsdale, and Palossand.

4: Healing Wish is rare in PU, and Shaymin having it lets the li’l hedgehog fit on more offensive structures that Venu/Chien don’t find themselves in.

Shaymin @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Leftovers/Life Orb/Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Ground/Poison/Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seed Flare
- Earth Power
- Air Slash/Dazzling Gleam
- Healing Wish

Not sure what Shaymin commonly runs in PU, but I assume its something like this, with Earth Power to Fires, and Air Slash for opposing Grasses or D-Gleam for Dragons like Goodra/Altaria.

What does the PU playerbase think?
I’m personally a shaymin fan, mainly due to the insane item versatility it has. There are probably 5 items it can run to good effects and it can even run physical. I just got dine with a set compendium for PU and guess which mon had the most sets? Shaymin. As you said, its also a very rare hwisher, the only other ones being mesprit and (UR) hattrem (all others arent noteworth to me imo. Its stats are also great, decent bulk + speed for this tier as well as decent attack stats. Imo shaymin fits really well only Offense, BO and Balance teams, and id prolly put her at around B+ rn.
 
I don’t follow much PU, but I’ve been curious about Shaymin.

img_9774-gif.747763
I've been a big Shaymin advocate in this meta and still believe in it - I personally feel its best set has Life Orb and one of Synthesis/Rest as Life Orb gives it KO power that it lacks without it (Specs is OK but Shaymin really likes switching moves) and a recovery move allows it to consistently sit on things like Milotic and Wo-Chien throughout the duration of a game. Rest is more effective at this but comes at the cost of your opponent knowing you're going to switch next turn, so Synthesis is often better. I like this proposition of Healing Wish over the recovery move and that also sounds fine on a more offensively inclined team, I'm totally gonna try it. And yeah, the best 3 attacks generally are Seed Flare + Earth Power + Dazzling Gleam imo, Air Slash is more niche but I can see why you might wanna pressure Venusaur/H-Decidueye more sometimes.
 
Aaaaand we're back! After a hiatus caused by lack of interest we've decided to make the process on our end easier behind the scenes and lo' and behold, we got a lot more interest this week!

Now who are we researching on our first week back? Well wouldn't you like to know? Pay us 499 Pokedollars for this issue of Pokemon Researchers Global...

After careful consideration (and lack of funding) we've been (legally) forced to release the research for free.

:whimsicott:

This week we researched the Bellamon! How'd it go?? Let's find out!

Heatranator:

Whimsicott is a very interesting pokemon. If you looked at its stat spread, it is just underwhelming besides from that speed stat. However, whimsicott has a lot more under the hood, such as the amazing fairy typing and a large variety of utility moves.

Choice Specs: This is probably Whimsicotts best set. While its damage ouput against defense is underwhelming, against offense, this is a literal godsend, as it cleans them up incredibly easily. There is not much for these teams that can take stab moonblast, and the few things that can are either given a choice specs (arcanine and such are completely ruined by this) or are u-turn victims. Prankster switcheroo also meant that boosted sweepers were stopped in there tracks, though infiltrator can be nice to get around sub Pokemon. Stab energy ball also means Milotic can never take your attacks. Even against defense, switcheroo can cripple a wall incredibly easily. You do want psychic for poison types, but that is def droppable. By far its best set, this something that distinguishes itself from the other Pokemon in the tier nicely.

Subseed: The nicher of the viable Whimsicott sets, subseed can still be infuriating if the opponent doesn't have skunk, air slash shaymin or a taunt pokemon. Whimsicott can threaten out a wide variety of Pokemon with the threat of encore or a moonblast against the multiple fairy weaks in the tier. From here, it can easily set up a substitue and precede to stall the ever loving hell out of a lot of attacker with the recovery leech seed+leftovers provides. If this Pokemon does encounter something that stops its shenanigans though, its pretty much deadweight. It can also struggle a decent bit against more offensive teams that don't let it get a sub up. And it also requires pivoting to get in safely, since its hates getting knocked off or statused. Specific, but under the right circumstances, it works wonders.
Boots pivot: Not going to talk about this set much, its outclassed by specs. Prankster encore is nice, but specs damage is too good to let go. Not taking hazard chip is cool, but not worth the loss in damage, and subseed makes up for it by being a bastard to face.

In conclusion:
Whimsicott isn't a great Pokemon by any means. Its low damage output is a real sticking point to it, especially if you drops choice specs. However, it does have a niche in the tier as a fast attacker that can be quite annoying to pin down if you don't have incredibly specific Pokemon. Florges and Shaymin are by far the better overall pokemon, but Whimsicott can still carve out its own niche in the tier.

Elo change: Can't remember the exact number, but it went from 1330s to 1380s when testing whimsicott.

Gradings:

Offensively: C
Defensively: B-
Utility: B+
Overall: B-

Here are the main two teams I used (I ended up deleting the boots pivot team since it didn't work)
https://pokepast.es/85b873636fe303e0
https://pokepast.es/91f33718b95f1d18

Me:

Whimsicott really really doesn't fit the way I like to play the game. However after abandoning the notion of using it as a support mon or a leech spammer I've had decent results with it.

Specs Whims is what convinced me, that this mon has a niche in the tier, albeit a small one. I believe the others used a prankster u-turn + trick variant for extra utility. I did not and decided to go for an all out attacking version including infiltrator to get past subs and screens. Moonblast, energy ball, shadow ball, psychic. Moonblasy and Eball obviously for stab, which hits a lot of threats like Milo and the plethora of dark types for super effective damage. Shadow Ball for the psychics like espeon and guno, and psychic for threats like venu or tera poison wo-chien. Now specs whims will lost likely never one-shot a target, but it will always do an uncomfortable amount of damage to just about everything. The speed tier and typing also allows it to click moves more freely and almost guarantee damage against anything not named Salazzle or Helectrode. Now against the fire/poison matchups you need a bulky mon to cover for it. The partner I found (thanks to heatranator) that worked the best was Coalossal. On their own both mon are lackluster and not really usable on many teams, but together they damn near perfectly cover for each other's weaknesses. I'd go as far as to say that both mons come as a kind of package deal that elevates each piece to higher heights.

Now enough offense glazing and let's talk about the other set I tried. Prankster subseed whims. Honestly annoying once upon a time, but ends up feeling lackluster now since most teams have either espeon, wo-chien, or venusaur which almost entirely nullifies this strat and makes you switch out. I personally had no real success with this, but this might be a skill issue.

The acc I used for my Whims research started at around 1150 and ended in the 1320s.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend using whims outright, as it isn't really an easy mon to pilot and bring, but I'd encourage you to try a whims + coal/any rock type core for your teams!

Grades:

Offensive: B-
Defensive: C+
Utility: B+
Overall: B

Olly:

Whimsicott is your budget shaymin & florges offensively & if role compression is what you desire it does this job very nicely, obtains a nice speed tier to revenge non scarfed fighters (and can usually revenge anyway unless flarebitz redbull etc) & can gain momentum on milotic. I do believe the specs set has a place in the tier, I tried a subseed boots set as well as a prankster encore/u-turn/stun spore set, however I find it too frail and that mons like salazzle fill this role much more effectively, I usually found myself incapable of doing anything but u-turning away or leech-seeding and dying as so much of the tier has coverage or can break subs as whimsi has such a low HP stat. Whimsicott hits a really good amount of the tier for supereffective damage & can cripple common switchins (like slowbro) with trick - I tended to run u-turn, moonblast, energyball & trick although did experiment with shadow ball but found its use cases lacking over the momentum gathered by u-turn. I used prankster on the specs set, although infiltrator can be useful the ability for a prankster switcheroo to 'rescue' the occasional game against a set-up sweeper was invaluable and so I decided to stick with it, if you are piloting a more defensively solid team I would totally understand an infiltrator set as it can hard check some fairly common sub/screen mons. I found specs whimsi to best used on balance teams as something to help break through milo & punish bulky switchins as well as generate momentum with u-turn to bring in hard hitting threats (such as red-bull which I frequently used alongside it). I'd say its main issues are the teams I used it on always felt spikes weak as whimsicoot is already very very difficult to bring in more than once or twice due to how frail it is, so the teams using it I felt, unless specficially built around its weakness & to play a bulky slow style, needed to provide enough offensive pressure to build on the momentum that whimsi tended to build.

I think I started around 1100 and ended mid 1300s - this was a few days ago however.
Grades:
Offensive C+
Defensive C
Utility B+
Overall B-

Sychillz:

At first glance, Whimsicott’s stat spread doesn’t inspire much . Outside of its Really good base 116 Speed, it’s largely underwhelming, especially on the offensive or defensive ends. But Whimsicott isn’t a Pokemon you judge by stats Because it has none higher then 100 its real power lies in its disruptive potential, typing, and Diffculty your opponent will have attmepting to understand your full set. With a great defensive typing in Fairy and a toolkit loaded with utility, Whimsicott proves itself a Pokémon From the Game Pokémon and one That is Like Slightly better than Sneasel H
In Terms of sets choice specs is the number 1. 116 Speed allows gives you a jump on all viable pokemon Not named salzzle or choice scarf and moonblasts Great base 95 Power Lets you Push kos on Even Resists that lack Recovery Being faster then typical fast mon Also allows you t o pick off faster frailer threats with little issue Problem arrise when the threat has any Sdef As even with a chocie specs base 77 Special attack will alwyas let you down Leaving choice specs Very liable to be baited in terad on and then set up on by better pokemon but the set remains the easiest to slot on to teams
Another good set ive found is 3 attacks encore bye dropping speed evs to Creep pawmot Putting the rest in defense allows for you to be a decent pawmot check not taking anything over 30% from any of his moves and easily able to force him out Running leech seed over encore also provides utility and recovery.
Whimsicott is far from a dominant force in PU, and it suffers from its low base stats outside of Speed. But with smart team building and role compression, it finds a valuable niche a Specs wallbreaker or as a frustrating tool. Florges and Shaymin may outclass it in raw stats and bulk, but Whimsicott’s Speed, typing, and ability to cripple walls and check common threats like Pawmot give it unique utility. It’s not splashable, but when it hits it hits

Grades:

Offensive: C
Defensive: B+
Utility: A-
Overall: B-


Well well well! Seems like overall we'd agree that Whims is a niche pick that has value, but isn't as splashable as one would desire. The overall score it averaged out to was a B-. We'd encourage you to test it out for yourself, but don't expect it to carry you every game!

And with that this week's research is done! Next week we'll have another prankster mon to report about: :Sableye:

If you wanna join and are interested in researching this mon hmu on disc at .corvy!
But for now, bye bye!
 
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Two prankster mons? Two weeks? Yessirrrrr! This week is Sableye's turn! How did it do? Well why don't ya read on to find out, dingus?

:sableye:

Heatranator: Sableye has always been an interesting pokemon. With truly horrid stats, it makes up for this with baiscally everything else. Amazing typing that leaves it only weak to fairy and has a ton of useful immunities/resistances, a wide variety of a support movepool and the ever reliable Knock Off.

Support set: This is by far sableye's best set. With wisp, knock, recover and filler, any of encore, t-wave, night shad, foul play or whatever random ass move you want last, sableye can be a very annoying gremlin against offense teams, while still contributing to the defense mu by knocking off items. The main issue with this set, is that it struggles immensly with dark types, or dark teras, which completely neuter anything sableye tries to do. However, with smart teambuilding, this can be covered. It does also compete with grimmsnarl, but will-o-wisp+recover does differentiate it enough.

Calm Mind: Ngl, this was more of a meme set that I used to just test what sableye could do since the support set is the only good set, but surprisingly, this wasn't horrible. Now, I'm not going to reccomend you use this, but if you do end up using it, it isn't horrible. With a set of cm, recover, dark pulse and d-gleam, sableye can become a decently threatening sweeper. Prankster cm+recover means that it can setup on quite a few special attackers, with +2 dark pulse starting to threaten decent damage. Its not spectacular, since it needs quite a few boosts to start sweeping, and it can at times struggle to get that boost along with being very status weak, but it can get the job done.

In conclusion:
Sableye is a nice little pokemon in the tier. Its probably never going to be amazing due to competition with grimm and its poor stats holding it back, but it will put in work and do well for you. Just build around it carefully, and it will work out for you.

Elo change: Went from around 1350 to 1400s while using sableye

Gradings:

Offensivly: C
Defensively: B
Utility: A-
Overall: B

Main teams I used during my testing:
https://pokepast.es/b5864b4c80ef02d4
https://pokepast.es/fad8dfc42b032e9e

Me: Sableye was one of those mon I expected nothing from, since whenever I faced it it did nothing. Turns out that wasn't the lil guys' fault but the people piloting it!

The set I primarily used was double status, recover, knock. Twave and WoW together cripple any non-dark type, not much in the tier 1-shots this dude after a WoW if you got decent SpD investment. As Heatranator said before me the niche it has over Grimm is recover and willo in addition to fake out and mach punch immunity. With all these strengths combined this mon can be a real pain in the rear for a lot of the current meta. No pawmot wants to get burned, bar the 1/20 nat cure mot. No milo or guno wants to get twaved. And I hear you say "Oh but espeon bounces it back!" Sableye even with 0 invests 1-shots espeon with koff! And a lot of people will try to "outsmart" you by switching esp in, which you can abuse. All in all would recommend this set for people that wanna try the mon!

Now. The reason why the alt I used didn't gain much elo.
For some reason Sableye gets metal burst. I tried it, and it worked maybe twice in over 20 games. You can imagine how the rest went lol

Elo gained/lost: 1073-1204

Offensively: C
Defensively: B-
Utility: A+
Overall: B

Olly: I didn't really enjoy using Sableye in all honesty - felt incredibly frail & the abundance of dark types (as well as tera-dark) meant that it could be quite easy to take advantage of. It struggles to spin block & aside from sitting on some mons and spreading para (in an well built team I knicked off of DDJoe) I don't really think it has that viable of a niche. Perhaps with double hazards it would have more staying power by crippling physical walls and stalling them out with recover. Whilst others investigated this set I did not have time to, and this may have negatively impacted my perception of Sableye. Most of the times Sableye was only able to come in after a KO or on a pivot & so had very little ability to switch in and pressure something out as it would just get stuck in a priority recover loop unable to inflict status. I think grimmsnarl is the better mon with more set variety and more opportunities to enter the field and apart from role compression (spin blocking/a desperate need to spread both para/burn I don't see much of a point in sableye (I also believe double status glowbro fills this niche more confidently). That said there were some decent matchups: If espeon hasn't set up as you come in/it comes in predicting a T-wave you smack it with a strong knock-off (beware Tera Fairy into cm). A-sandslash doesn't particular enjoy being parad/knocked off when trying to spin & can be sat on with recover. These are two mons I frequently took advantage of and perhaps this could be an advantage in the builder as a suprise pick - it does also have the ability to in a pinch shut down sweeps against non dark mons with priority paralysis/encore depending on the situation of its arrival, this can ease pressure in the teambuilder slightly especially with its triple immunity.

Offensively: D
Defensively: C+
Utility: A-
Overall: C+

Elo change was unchanged pretty much pretty sure I want from 1300->1300 as I didn't have a whole lot of time to focus ladder.

Team provided kindly by DDjoe: https://pokepast.es/a307f36ce09f6504

Sychillz: Keeping this short Sableye for a lack of better words melts down the good parts of multiple other pokemon into 1 at the cost of losing all their other useable traits, as a status spreader sableye is slightly better then pokemon like belibolt of course missing out on beli great defensive typing and bulky its pretty abysmal at much else its an ok spin blocker but even there is outclassed by pallosand who may be easily pressured but also checks common Mon like Pawmot and Rhydon finally the last set I would deem even usable was choice band, as silly of a set as this is it’s actually quite good when spin blocking the surprise of it allows you to take easy picks on Pokemon who expected a free switch like milotic or other common special walls who don’t mind losing an item or status, trick is a great crippling option for physical walls and recover/willo/shadow sneak round out the set each with their own utility after or before trick

Sableye @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 92 Def / 164 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Knock Off
- Trick
- Recover/WilloWisp/Shadow Sneak

92 defense Evs are ran to live a Arcanine flare blitz

Offensively: C+
Defensively: C
Utility: A
Overall: B-


Aaaaand that's all we got this week! All in all we seem to think it's around B/B- and definitely a mon to try out!

Next week is Poliwrath's turn! Tune in to see how the big guy does! And of course if you want to join us, as always message me on discord @ .corvy !!
Bye byeee
 
@ pu council

with the impending tier shifts causing pu to lose scrafty and bellibolt, i wanted to bring up the topic of considering a resuspect on duraludon.

last year, dura was banned immediately after losing slowbro-galar and milotic, among a couple of other pkmn like bronzong, which pushed its offensive sets over the edge. now that we have slowbro-g and milo back in the metagame, and notably scrafty is not in the metagame anymore, not only do i think dura has the potential to fit well in the metagame, but it also may address general complaints.

the main one is having no steel-type. pokemon like articuno-galar and espeon are very strong and in particular the psychic + flying type stab combination is not naturally resisted by viable pokemon. adding duraludon to the mix can help with counterplay to these pokemon as well as help to fill the hole that scrafty left in terms of breaking common defensive cores. that is not to suggest that we don't have the tools to do so at our disposal, nor is it suggesting that articuno-g and espeon are broken, but having an extra one seems like a nice bonus in an uncharted metagame where bulky status spreaders and slow setup are very strong. a shell side arm immunity is also rly nice with scrafty gone.

obviously that's just some surface level stuff, but it doesn't make sense to write a dissertation -- just wanted to start a discussion. i do not think duraludon would be broken and i think it would give some nice tools for teambuilding. if tier shifts occur again in the future we can just quickban it later.

interested in what the community thinks
 
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agree with a duraludon retest because the lack of steel types is concerning... at this point running 2 or 3 choiced wallbreakers sounds like a viable strategy. Especially when Orthworm sucks ass and Sandslash is too constrained between rapid spin, sr, utility like Knock Off etc.

Magneton sounds like a nice compromise, but i always found it disappointing. Could have been a tiny bit stronger but knock off can make it absolutely useless.

Speaking of wallbreakers, how would you feel about Specs Hoopa with a modest nature?
 
i'd be in support of a duraludon resuspect, and i think a lot of people seem to overrate it if anything

the choice specs set is the only scary set, but it has a pretty glaring flaw; it's a steel with no special bulk whatsoever and also happens to take neutral damage from fairy moves, meaning it's extremely easy to offensively pressure with pokémon such as pawmot, salazzle, zoroark, heattom, and scarf florges. this limits its opportunities a lot and would also force team with specs duraludon into awkward structures, especially if you consider how it fails to deal with guno and espeon. i think it helps to view it as a sort of goodra with considerably less defensive utility but with a higher damage output; considering goodra is not viewed as an issue, i have a hard time believing duraludon would be an overly oppressive force

i won't rehash what excal said too much, but between milotic, glowbro, and florges (not a switch in exactly but you stop mindless draco spam) all being as common as they are, i think choice specs variants would be manageable. as for defensive/evio sets, they'd add great utility to a tier in desperate need of more steel-types
 
Speaking of wallbreakers, how would you feel about Specs Hoopa with a modest nature?
Choice Specs Hoopa is a pretty solid wallbreaker right now. Defensive cores revolve around Pokemon like Galarian Slowbro, Milotic, and Florges, with walls like Palossand and Orthworm occasionally popping as well, and none of these Pokemon resist Shadow Ball; crazy coincidence! Bulky Dark-types like Scrafty, Wo-Chien, and Skuntank are admittedly a huge thorn in Hoopa's side, and most teams feature one (occasionally more) of them. That said, Hoopa usually only needs to predict them once with Focus Blast before being able to spam Shadow Ball. You can even afford to slot in Thunderbolt to reliably 2HKO Skuntank and specially defensive Bombirdier, since fourth move Trick feels a bit lackluster imo, but that's more niche. Modest Hoopa is fine for guaranteeing the OHKO against Wo-Chien with Focus Blast, among other things, and you don't exactly lose out on much in terms of speed tiers.

I have this team using it from a month or two ago, not sure exactly how good it is now but linking it just in case you want to try Choice Specs Hoopa out :)

~~~

About Duraludon, I'm not 100% against a retest. My main concerns here are the idea of reintroducing a Steel-type that actively takes advantage of our lack of Steel-types and that, offensively, it seems pretty similar to Dragalge, which we did get to see in a meta with Galarian Slowbro, Milotic, Florges, etc. I do acknowledge that it isn't at all a one-to-one comparison; Dragalge doesn't ever get OHKOed by Florges's Moonblast, resists STAB moves from Pawmot, Rotom-H, etc, and hits harder by virtue of Adaptability. I also acknowledge that the defensive attributes mentioned above are real and would be valuable, and this is why a resuspect isn't off the table for me. It's only conflicting for me because Dragalge also had some incredibly useful defensive properties that ended up being overshadowed by its offensive properties. Maybe after a few days or a week of playing the new meta I'll have a more solidified opinion, just wanted to contribute to the discussion before then.
 
Yeah, don't unban dura. The answers are simply still too limited and I don't see how the answers have gotten any better since we arrived.

Firstly put, dura is a fake steel type. Others mention above that it could check garticuno and espeon, but it simply doesn't. Non d-tail variants don't even beat cm garticuno, while cm espeon also sets up on it while LO sets 2HKO eviolite sets. So yeah, it doesn't help as much as some people say, the only sets it helps against are pretty dealable on there own.

And besides that, why do we need more steels? While I would love something like copper dropping back (never happening, but I can cope), teams are absolutely able to do no steels, with fire+dark usually being a suitable replacement.

Secondly, the checks are just not there.
i won't rehash what excal said too much, but between milotic, glowbro, and florges (not a switch in exactly but you stop mindless draco spam) all being as common as they are, i think choice specs variants would be manageable. as for defensive/evio sets, they'd add great utility to a tier in desperate need of more steel-types
Let's look at these three. Florges ofc doesn't take on dura too well since its outsped and flash does a ton to it (unless you run scarf, which is common) but at worst, it can force dura out ig.
Glowbro is not a check at all. Obviously we are talking about AV bro (because every other set dies to draco), but glowbro doesn't even do a great job at checking it. E-belt sets with dark pulse straight up 2HKO while specs flash cannon 2HKO's with rocks up.
Milo has to be specially defensive to beat Duraludon, otherwise it loses to it still, which with the choice specs or e-belt sets, it can 2HKO with thunderbolt against the phys defense sets. If milo is specially defensive, then specs sets still can 2HKO with tbolt if rocks are down. Nevermind the fact that milo already wants to be phys defense to take on a large amount of physical attackers which is why phys defense is more popular.

But lets look at the other special tanks in the tier and why it beats all of those.
:wo chien:
Ofc has to be specially defensive, but ig its the best check? Still takes a butt-ton from specs draco though so it has to be rest-talk to actually beat it (and even then its getting dicey since dura only needs to get 2 switch-ins before wo-chien can't switch in anymore if its recovery in leech seed is denied).

:goodra:
Lmfao, I don't think I have to explain why this doesn't take on dura well.

:sandslash alola:
Sandslash is 2HKO'd by specs flash cannon, or worse comes to worse, body pressed for large amounts of damage by the other more defensive sets.

So yeah, dura simply put, does not have enough answers in the tier to warrant a resuspect.

this limits its opportunities a lot and would also force team with specs duraludon into awkward structures, especially if you consider how it fails to deal with guno and espeon.
IDT it would be limited into awkward structures. AV Glowbro checks all of the listed pokemon aside from zoroark, who sure, has much more limited checks, but something such as scarf florges should be able to deal with it well enough. You will have to build a bit awkwardly, but it can still be used effectively without losing to too much, and even those things the dura user should be able to out offense.

Overall, the defensive attributes duraludon brings to the table I think are overstated (+1 garticuno hurricane 2HKO's eviolite variants), while the offensive attributes it brings are way too hard for the tier to handle.
 
This week we got Poliwrath to research! Now how did this slightly bigger poliwhirl do? Let's find out!

:Poliwrath:

Me:

Poliwrath didn't do much for me overall sadly. Circle throw sets felt bad because 9 times outta 10 you take more than you do by making them take hazards again.

The only other set I had time to test this week was Bulk Up Poli. This one had some potential ngl! It walls the standard flip turn milo, lives a tatsu draco and then eats both up with drain punch ane knock off. Now here's the issue: with espeon, amoonguss, glowbro, pawmot running around in the tier, there is damn near no time to set up on anything, and even if you do you get forced to switch immediately unless you burn tera.

All in all despite all the hype I heard from people idt Poliwrath is a mon to build around or try out in the current landscape of PU.

My elo went from around 1250-1350 using it, mostly in spite of, not because of Poli.

Offensively: B-
Defensively: C+
Utility: C
Overall: C


Olly:
Whilst I was rolled up in bed like a gone off burrito, crippled by my 15th fever of the year, I sat down and began an investigation into poliwrath.

I went in with zero expectations, expecting it to get sat on by anything bulky & outsped and killed by anything offensive. This was true, to an extent. It is very easy to revenge kill & a large swathe of mons love crippling it with any and all status.

This being said, it does have some nice traits, with an EV spread it can survive some revenge killers (I focused on a bit extra spdef) and with tera dark knock off finds itself picking up an extra KO often whilst completely locking bruxish out of the game - with a bulk up it also hits g-bro quite hard. Whilst it can get sat on, it can also sit on a fair amount of the metagame forcing switch outs with the threat of bulk up and importantly with less speed than milo can sit and beat it 1v1! (unless dtail). Leading into H-avalugg and just clicking bulk up gave a nice start to the game with the threat of tera knocking out unsuspecting espeons coming in to revenge, and as previously mentioned (with tera dark) makes bruxish a complete non factor. With a bulk up it begins hitting hard & combined with trick/thief support I found it to a form a nice defensive core that crippled opponent pokemons whilst punishing them for not respecting the respective power of the team by trying to over predict switches/attacks.

I think it is best combined with bulky teams that want to give milo a pause before going for flip turns to gain momentum, it likes switching into ambipom as well. But generally I found it as a little suprise pick where you could get a bulk-up in on something it doesn't care about and then using tera could pick up a suprise kill. In this sense it does hog tera a bit & in my team was generally used the least & sacked the most - but in some games it could turn the game on its head and be a useful momentum equaliser. I enjoyed using it and felt that it brought the team together.

Here is the team I used in all of its glory: https://pokepast.es/83d29512b951a067 -Spdef & HP was, I think, for some uninvested florges moonblast/espeon psynoise. The speed was important. By underspeeding milo you can break through it with knock + drain punch as you bulk up last and then can hit it with a boosted drain punch, this means you can eventually break through. Rest goes into attack so you don't hit like a noodle.
All the good things been said it dies to a lot & in a lot of games will not get any space so the team needs to have a really specific weakness to certain mons that needs to be stop-gapped by poliwrath. Another note it is completely useless against offense (both HO and more normal) - not fast enough and dies to everything.

During playtesting I went from 1250-1450 (as of writing)

Offensively: B-
Defensively: B-
Utility: C
Overall: C+



All in all it seems the both of us are in agreement that Poliwrath hovers around C/C+ and has very obvious flaws.

Now who are we testing next week? Not just a single mon, but the entire Electric terrain archetype! Will it be good? Will it be absolute trash? Find out next week!

If you wanna join us in researching mons hmu on disc at .corvy !
 
And we're back again! This week with Electric Terrain! Is it as worthless as people say it is? Does it have a niche at all? Let's see what we found out!

:pincurchin:

Me:

I really wanted this to have some sauce man. I tried every trick in the book, from normal terrain bs like unburden mons and a bulky setup sweeper, to absurd conceptsnlike pickpocket sneasel-h and thief hoopa with grassy seed. All of those things worked well, but really no thanks to electric terrain sadly. They would all work the same, if not better with grassy terrain.

There is 2 things I can say elec got over grassy terrain though!

1. Monlee can use earthquake since it's not slashed in half by gterrain. This comes up a bit since it helps certain matchups be doable e.g. K9 and Redbull.

2. Alochu! A fast terrain sweeper that basically gets unburden on every switchin and isn't crippled after switching out. Now the stats make it a bit tricky to use, as a single stray ground, dark, bug, or ghost move sends you to nirvana, but there is something I ended up doing that helped! I ended up using a bulkier spread of alochu, sacrificing a good bit of speed that was then invested into defense, and in addition to the elec seed def boost, it did have respectable bulk! Add to that Nplot and Draining Kiss post tera and you got a fast, bulky sweeper who can definitely run games on his own.

Now here's the real downside... Why is pincurchin worse than an NFE mon? Thwackey laughs at how dogwater Pincurchin is, and he on his own is the reason why this playstyle imo is not viable. You can try patch it up with scald, discharge, spikes and all kinds of moves the urchin learns, but you won't get anywhere with it. It simply kills your momentum everytime you have to use it and switch into it which is a death sentence for any HO, let alone one as fragile as terrain HO. If any other mon had pincurchin's terrain setting ability plus a good pivot move, it'd be goated and leave thwackey jobless. As it stands though, this mon singlehandedly makes you not wanna play elec terrain.

As much as I want to recommend elec terrain, I simply can't as it is tricky to pilot, essentially a 5v6, and has about the same payoff as other terrain HOs. Steer clear folks

My elo went from 1350s to around 1300s using this. So imo it's not even good enough to climb ladder effectively.

Offensively: B+
Defensively: B
Utility: F
Overall: UR


Heatranator:

Electric terrain is certainly a weird playstyle. Its got decently powerful sweepers in Alolan Raichu, the unburden mons, and the litany of electric types that can abuse it, but comes with the drawback of needing to required pincurchin, who is certainly uh, a pokemon.

I only tried the HO version of e-terrain, but there were two standout mons on said e-terrain. The first is alolan raichu, who is basically necessary on e-terrain. With an electric seed, a-raichu is able to be decently bulky, enough to setup a nasty plot. With said nasty plot boost, it can abuse draining kiss, especially with tera fairy, to be an incredibly annoying Pokemon to take down, especially with surf or grass knots natural coverage being incredible. Its just a really hard pokemon to take down since most priority bounces off it. The seoncd, is drfiblim. Now, you can use any unburden mon, but I chose drifblim specifically due to its access to tbolt, which is boosted by g-terrain. With a bulky spread and strength sap, you are able to easily get multiple boosts per game, eventually getting to the point opponents struggle to take you down. It needs time to get going, but usually its able to get going.

Other sweeper options include: Arcanine (wild charge is good to nuke milo), pawmot, delphox, helectrode, p2 and prob more.

Now, ofc, we have to talk about the elephant in the room. Pincurchin. Simply put, its ass. You only use it because you are required to. The moveset is basically trying to squeeze anything you can out of the mon. Discharge, scald, spikes, recover, sucker punch, memento, hex, toxic spikes. First three on this list are mandatory, but anything can be put in last. Realistcially though? You are switching this mon out turn one every time to let a sweeper do its stuff.

Overall, e-terrain is bad. As much as I hyped it up, its just mid. Pincurchin is just such a horrible mon, and while the other mons in a team can make up for it, having to use such a deadslot means you basically play 5v6. Don't use this, its bad, but it can have some fun moments if you do decide to use it. Just try to abuse a-raichu and an unburden mon as much as possible

Elo difference: I believe I went from 1400s to 1440s using e-terrain.

Offensively: B
Defensively: C
Utility: C
Overall: D

Main team I used during the week: https://pokepast.es/1c4b3324284050e0


Sychillz:

Electric terrain is definitely 1 of the terrains ever its utility over psychic or grassy is lost due to the sleep ban clause leaving its only real upside being its exclusive sweeper alohlan raichu the ability to run several diffent sets all with unique work around for common checks dkiss electric seed Tera fairy lets you bait in dark types wanting to click sucker punch and nasty plot and then Tera and sweep a life orb full out offensive set can run a set of 4 moves and Tera electric or 3 and nasty plot I even tested mixed sets which provide utility for repeated sweeps speaking of repetition no terrain is good if its setter isn’t and man is pincurchin quite nice lacking in the offensive department much more then PACKING in the utility department it spreads status decently well with discharge and scald making a nice core recover provides longevity and spikes are nice realistically you’ll almost switch out instantly but trusting in your bulk to take big hits and force progress is something no other terrain setter can do
Electric terrian typical runs other pokemon beacsue teams need 6 pokemon (sadly) espeon is a decent option I experimented with choice band Pawmot who wasn’t too bad though far worse then standard a check for ground types is also nice obviously and anti hazard and taunt users are also nice as a way to keep your setter and sweepers in prime condition
Overall electric terrain as a whole may not be quite as good as other archetypes but it’s definitely valid in its own way

Offensively: A-
Defensive:D
Utility:C+
overall: B-


Seems that on average we think Eterrain is around C tier huh? Well that's a bummer! Next week is a relaxing one for us, it's Snorlax week! Is our good ol' buddy good enough? Find out next week!

If you wanna join us just hmu at .corvy in discord!

With that, bye bye!

p.s. we aren't dead yet :P
 
And we're back! We had the slumbering, lumbering, not so gentle giant: Snorlax! Did he do well? Did we do well? Who knows? You'd wanna know wouldn't you? THEN READ ON DAMMIT!

:snorlax:



Me:

I went into this thinking that Snorlax would be a fun mon to Research, I was dead wrong. I hated the whole experience. I went in all holly jolly and thought curse lax may be boring, but snorlax can run band and some berry shenanigans with Gluttony. Little did I know… Big bro misses critical kills with Band since base 100 isn't all that impressive in today's economy, custap snorlax is cool but essentially just a worse Version of Belly Drum Hariyama, which isn't even Harry's best set imo. Another thought we had was AV lax since ya know, it is big and beefy on the SpD side, but why use it over Florges or Goodra who just have better typings and a substantially cooler moveset?

Now how did it do in practice?

Honestly not too horrid. I didn't expect too much from it, but it did nab me a win or two. There is certain matchups that are just absolutely abyssmal. Any tricker will trick a scarf or specs on him and make him practically worthless, Tauros and Monlee, or really any other phys threat pounce on this poor thicc ladd and force tera, or a switch. Mudsdale roars him out, milo hazes him and scalds him to death. This Mon for me just ended up being a headache, which I couldn't pilot correctly. It might be me who is the problem here, but I can't really put this guy anywhere above a C+ for versatility. Amoong and Glowbro don't like facing lax since he does have EQ and Heat crash, but they won't get 1-shot so they can easily pivot out or annoy Lax with toxic and shell side smash.

In theory this mon is decent imo, but in practice you run into so many problems which make you reevaluate your entire life. Just run Goodra and Florges, or any SpD wall. I wouldn't recommend lax in PU, but he runs things in ZU so maybe go there with him!

I started a new account to test snorlax, and never got above 1250, so do with that info what you want lol.

Offensively: C
Defensively: B
Utility: F
Overall: C+




Heatranator:

Snorlax, the generation one titan, who dominated for 2-3 generations. Now it currently finds itself in the ZU tier. But maybe it is underrated in the PU tier. After all, its got some pretty great stats, two good abilities and an actually insane movepol (seriously, look at this things movepool, gen one mons are blessed in that way).

Curselax: I tried two curse sets. The first was curse+rest, with two attacks (I didn't try rest-talk with curse but that sounds incredibly horrible). Frankly put, this set is bad. It just doesn't have enough coverage to hit its checks hard, and generally has to spend two turns waiting to act again if its forced out (its incredibly easy to force out). The second set was curse+3A. This set is a lot better, but its really only good on HO. You can use it as a special tank that can trade decently well with most things, allowing snorlax to help against pokemon such as Salazzle that might be a struggle to switch into. Still has issues with quite a few physical walls, but it can do alright.

Bandlax: This set is so, so close to being absolutely goated. From what you would think, it can 2HKO most defensive pokemon if it gets the right predict. In practice, you are just too slow to actually threaten these defensive pokes as they can either heal off the damage, or switch to a resist. You do have decent ins, but its just a bit too meh to work well.

AVlax: This is what I believe to be snorlax's best set. With an assault vest, you become inpenetrable to special attacks, which is really, really good. From here, you can use your coverage to be annoying to switch into, which while it isn't doing amazing damage, it does enough to not be setup fodder for most things. You do need to pair it with wish support, but it works well if given that (florges+snorlax basically says fuck you to any non glowbro special attacker in the tier).
Overall, snorlax isn't good. But, if you do lean into its sets, it can work well on occasion. Its massive special bulk can be nice at times and it can solidly trade with certain sets. Just give my man slack off for gods sack, I would main body slam, slack off, encore, crunch/heat crash lax in an instant.

Elo difference: Went from 1400s to 1200s and then back up to 1300s while using lax

Offensively: C+
Defensively B-
Utility: C-
Overall: C



Olly:

I only tried out band lax as I didn't see much hope in the other sets (although AV with wish support on a bulky team may get some mileage?) - I'll keep it short as I think it is a fairly simple cookie cutter mon to fit on teams. Will reliably switch into a decent amount of special attackers (really hates eating psyshock from Espeon/Hoopa so investing a bit into defence can help to survive 2HKOs from non specs variants) and then has to make a prediction with its ridiculous coverage that you can adapt to the situation - supercell slam picked up the most KOs for me throughout testing, but some rhydons were also caught off by seed bomb. It is very consistent at coming in on special attackers and can provide a lot of longevity for offense teams that are slightly frail on the special side but want to maintain momentum without switching in to more passive special walls. Its issues are clear, it is incredibly slow, predicition reliant, can't reliably 2hkos even on correct predicts as recovering spam can usually outlast it due to its slow speed. It does have its potential uses, but they seem limited and more of a niche option if you want to bring a suprise factor which, especially with thick-fat, can be used a, 'in a pinch', special switch in. However it can not be called a proper special wall (especially with the band set) as it will get worn down by hazards, switching moves & the ever presence psyshock constantly threatening it with huge damage. I enjoyed using it and was able to fit some frailer mons onto the teams I built with it and used snorlax to paper over some cracks, but given the fact I just papered over them in any games where the opponent could survive the initial onslaught snorlax felt like complete dead weight once it came in twice (or even once in some circumstances).

Elo difference: Went from 1400s to 1300s I think?

Offensively: C+
Defensively C
Utility: D+
Overall: C-
 
Avalugg-Hisui @ Custap Berry
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Ice
EVs: 252 Atk / 232 SpD / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mountain Gale
- Rapid Spin
- Rock Blast
- Body Press

24 speed evs to outspeed 0 spe rhydon

Been teching this anti lead Hisuian Avalugg set and tbh I'm very proud of it. Everyone knows Avalugg can't take special hits at all, but if you invest in its special defense interesting things will happen. Should your opponent chip down your Avalugg with something like U-turn in anticipation of a Stealth Rock, they can then switch to the likes of Espeon and Florges and proceed to easily OHKO.

However, if Avalugg runs special defense EVs, it can survive Florges' Moonblast and Life Orb Espeon's Psychic and Grass Knot, which will activate its custap berry and trade extremely well with a SR user in the back.

Tera Ice should probably be used on turn 1, increasing the power of Mountain Gale.
 
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