-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
AAA National Dex Almost Any Ability
- Thread starter LordBox
- Start date
I believe that aerilate dragonite is unhealthy for the metagame, and should be banned. While yes, it struggles to break common phys walls like ferro only having a 3.1% 2HKO chance after leftovers: 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 160-190 (45.4 - 53.9%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, or corviknight, 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Frustration vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 93-111 (23.3 - 27.8%) -- possible 5HKO, or even pecharunt, all of which are less present in NDAAA compared to AAA, but was still banned there but it quite easily steamrolls through anything after a single dragon dance, to the point where you would need a dedicated counter, like a dazzling or armour tail pokemon, many of which would be destroyed by frustration, giving it a consitent, high BP stab move, that wouldnt be blocked by Psychic terrain / dazzling / armour tail, something it didnt have in regular AAA, which it was still banned in. Most of the walls listed above arent capable of taking a +1 Frustration: +1 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 208-246 (54.7 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO, +1 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 240-283 (68.1 - 80.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery, and while corvi is able to take multiple, it has no way of dealing ACTUAL damage to a dragonite and is just setup fodder, and after 2 dragon dances not even Corviknight can stop it. All you need is Stealth rocks and a couple dragon dances and in most situations wins on minimum turn 4, (Rocks up getting it in and 2 dances) later on if you have a pokemon capable of shooing it away. But even then there are other pokemon in the back capable of countering checks, like a mold breaker/turboblaze/teravolt fire type, E.g, Choice band victini: 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 510-602 (127.8 - 150.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO, 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 876-1032 (248.8 - 293.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO, and 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pecharunt: 189-223 (49.7 - 58.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO. The 2 make a practically unwallable duo, which in most cases would be perfectly fine, just deal with them with a good priority user, but a +2 atk +2 speed dragonite with the adamant nature can only be outsped by a max speed regieleki, so its only real counter is a refridgerate espeed regieleki, which can be walled quite easily, hense why it isnt banned, despite being as fast as it is with access to boltbeam coverage. So i guess what im trying to say is, dragonite is a near unwallable pokemon that can only be beaten by specific mons, which wouldnt do much in most other situations, and act as fodder for other pokemon, or just dont have an ability in most other matchups.
I think we ought to pay some attention to Regieleki as well, it's kinda dumb, in a Dracovish kinda way
Honestly, Dragonite need to be ban in National Dex AAA.
Dragonite have gone far with aerilate.
Dragonite set up Dragon Dance and use sharp beak to boost flying move like Aerilate.
This should be ban.
Dragonite have gone far with aerilate.
Dragonite set up Dragon Dance and use sharp beak to boost flying move like Aerilate.
This should be ban.
A mold breaker fire type can Poke some holes in defensive cores like WBB Ferro, Fluffy corvi etc. Intimidate can be blocked by inner focus/scrappy and i believe something else but most of the time you can just switch into a very good Special breaker, Hadron engine RV raikou can be good against fini and prim. It cant do much against Regenvest Goodra, but i dont know if thats too prominent in NDAAA. HP Grass can 2HKO a pert at +1 (Oh yeah run CM aswell) but it is prediction reliant as Pert can just OHKO back with eq. With chansey, and i hate to be that guy but knock can really shut it down. If Stamina chansey is what your facing, and dont want to deal with the inf +1 to def an offensive unaware pokemon can be good, and also beats Intimidate mons. I hope this helps and im sorry if im being an annoying "Just click knock" Kind of person but this is the best advice i can think to give. Hope it helps :)
i aint reading allat
ur definition of offense is 5 setup mons and a suicide lead, in which case dragonite is good to keep all the brokens in check, and to limit ho as a playstyle.
refrigerate/pixilate is weak af and loses to a number of things, most relevantly ferro. It can't even properly threaten the water regens. If by "dracovish kinda way" u mean outspeeds and kos ur entire time, that means u forgot a ground type or volt absorb or even big hoodra and got rolled by hadron rising voltage
it should be banned bc it can run aerilate and hold sharp beak and setup? This means nothing a ton of mons can do the same
This is pretty awful advice, says nothing and entirely dex info. You cannot break stall with one mon unfortuately, as even if u run moldy to deal with baked, u lose power, and lose to any fat intim mon or prank pex. A good way to beat stall is to have a consistent team and a long term plan (aka get good) for example, knock the assault vest off the goodra so its easier for special breakers like lele or specs wake. It also helps to have a spiker/rocker that doesnt lose to sableye or convention hazard control as that helps u break faster too. The most important thing is to not stay in and throw away ur breakers by mindlessly spamming the same move.
As for Dragonite, there are plenty of answers that people choose to ignore bc they spam the same kommo-o volc etc ho. Azelf in particular is quite annoying cuz psurge, and Mew can 1v1 it with wisp or ice beam. If ur losing to dd, maybe dont give it free turns to setup(duh), and have a coherent team structure.
Last edited:
Hadron engine alone is an ignorant ability, to the point where it enables Dracovish-like gameplay. Steamroll everything and restrict team building. Yea volt absorb and grounds help, but not against Raikou and other mons with coverage.
Hello, I want to ask a suspect test to Genesect or Shift Gear. Serene grace makes it incredibly strong and speedy combined with a 60% flinch move
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexaaa-2402120049
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexaaa-2402120049
After playing a few games (I'm not saying I'm a good player, imo I'm kinda mid) I think that Quick Draw needs to go. Having a strong, bulky attacker COMPLETELY IGNORE THE SPEED ORDER feels unfair- for example, there was a game where I was about to win with my Belly drum+ Salac berry Poliwrath (After one BD you get x4 Atk and x1.5 speed), I was about to ice punch decidueye, who I SHOULD have outsped, only to get hit with a super effective trailblaze before I could even move.
Some people might respond with"Well it's balanced, because it only has a 30% chance to occur, so you were just unlucky"-
Frankly, pokemon should come down to skill, not landing a 30% lottery ticket.
Whats worse is that any pokemon can have this broken ability, and the odds of winning will often/always be in the Quick Draw players hands.
Honestly, if a player wants speed control they should use TR or Tailwind, much less broken strategies.
I rest my case.
P.S.- If my problems are from me just not being good enough, then PLEASE tell me.
I have been using Technician Sneasel and Drought Houndoom to great success
Some people might respond with"Well it's balanced, because it only has a 30% chance to occur, so you were just unlucky"-
Frankly, pokemon should come down to skill, not landing a 30% lottery ticket.
Whats worse is that any pokemon can have this broken ability, and the odds of winning will often/always be in the Quick Draw players hands.
Honestly, if a player wants speed control they should use TR or Tailwind, much less broken strategies.
I rest my case.
P.S.- If my problems are from me just not being good enough, then PLEASE tell me.
I have been using Technician Sneasel and Drought Houndoom to great success
I've noticed in the wake of big dragonite mowing over fools with aerilate speed, that dazzling/queenly majesty has been popping up (mostly on grass/frail lures with an ice move). Psyterrain is a good stop against dnite, and baked corv is also very popular.
I'm not gonna front you, this meta is rough from a learning point of view. Most of the players are still getting their feet wet here, and it's not a crime to not know.
Wait disregard psyterrain, I forgot that quick claw/draw bypasses psyterrain
Oh yeah coz Quick Dr/Claw changes the turn order (like custap or TR) but not the priority
Yeah it's such a weird ability. Mad annoying too
A better reason would be that with aerialate-espeed, it is similar to mew, arceus, and nidoking in that it has a vast move pool.
With priority stab, there is nothing stopping it from maxing out both attacking stats and just running Espeed + Ice, Fire, Fighting, Electric, Steel, or Ground on either end of the spectrum. It doesn't need speed when most of what can tank it is slower + defensive on one side, while most things that outspeed it are frail and can be nuked by espeed even if resisted.
Sure your fluffy mon can take that espeed ... but I bet it wasn't expecting that max invested flame thrower or fire blast to come out. Ah but u have a well baked body cor— ... sss ooo nvm thunder/thunder bolt just sent it to the afterlife. Intimidator? You just revealed that intimidator does not have an immunity ability — Dnite is now scrolling through its restaurant menu. Zygarde & Zapdos? Iced.
Etceteras — {click espeed} "What type of death was that?" “Instant."
And Dragonite isn't a glass cannon, it's just a connon.
So yeah, I think Dragonite should be banned because of mixed sets combination with stab E-speed and its crazy power when boosted by anything.
This is an entirely hollow statement considering you completely disregarded the very first person you quoted, who gave valid examples of dragonite easily dispatching some of the most defensive mons in the game, alongside practical reasoning. The hollowness of this statement is added onto by that “argument” being use by every person ever trying to guard a mon from being banned. It is about as vague as you can get. All banned mons tend to do the same thing other mons can … they just do it very very good.
Also if you weren't going to read it, you didn't need to send them a notification/reply to them at all. That was just being overly mean and rude, and comes off as retaliation for them daring to suggest the dragonite on your team be banned.
This part feels subjectively driven {more based on emotion than logic, facts, or experience}. There is no person above 1500 elo who will keep in or switch in their Ground—Grass—Dragon—Fighting—Dark on a regieleki that doesn't have hadron engine. There will be one or several neutral switches to deduce which -ate it is, because if you guess wrong –ate Eleki is fully capable of wrecking your team. Ok, there is this strategy called "bolt/beam", ya follow? It's like an alternate version of "volt/turn" just on a single mon rather than 2. Like "volt/turn" it forces the opponent to make a choice: Do you want to die here, or will you risk trying to predict me predicting your switch. See the focus isn't really on getting KO's, it's on keeping certain pokemon from coming in while baiting the others. With refrigerator, it wants its type advantaged-checks to come in.
Ice/Electric is a very deadly combo that not many mons appreciate on anything faster than arctozolt. Regieleki has 200 base speed which makes it quite the kernuckle to kill before it leaves the field. It's faster than even choice scarfers. In national dex, it also has z moves (a.k.a. self-destruct on speed dial). One of the most common moves on regieleki is rapid spin, it is run because eleki is a reliable user of it, meaning it is a pokemon can come in continuously/consistently. It doesn't need to run focus sash like excadrill, because it shows the pokemon it comes in on, the door out.
–ate Eleki: “I'm clicking rapid spin. Deep down in your heart, YOU KNOW I'm clicking rapid spin. But you will leave anyway because you are too afraid of the 1% chance I don't click rapid spin and just KO you here and now and just spin on whatever comes in next.”
–ate ability removes one of the only things limiting eleki and many electric types, which is that they don't get coverage for ground types. Raikou is so prominent, because it naturally gets scald, which makes even zygarde father form flinch (not accounting for burn). If raikou had ice beam instead, it would likely get banned for just being a faster and harder hitting kyruem at that point.
To be clear, the purpose of this section isn't for banning regieleki. I typed this because your statement seems disingenuous, as if made for the purpose of "trying to win" rather than "trying to be right/correct/factual"
Like really? It doesn't properly threaten water regens? Well to begin, the only ones that stand a chance are max invested primaria and tapu fini. And since fini is bulkier...
252 SpA Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tapu Fini: 102-120 (29.6 - 34.8%) -- 7.5% chance to 3hko.
You're not switching in your water regen on it. You're not staying in either. If it clicks volt switch, you're not even damaging it and are now either below 50% HP or have just had your ability negated bare minimum. And if it is that type that carries thunder cage, supercell slam, instead of explosion, or is just specs then that water type is non existent, regardless of vest. Speaking of Supercell Slam, Regieleki can attack on both ends of the spectrum. One of the major points of a vested regen mon is that they take negligible damage, the counter to them are pokemon that can afford to stay in and unga bunga them. -ate eleki is typically preserved as the last mon standing due to its value. One pivot and its right back in giving you an ultimatum. Pretty sure people reading this can remember a time where they wanted their opponent to just let the eleki die already, and then lost or nearly lost purely because their opponent preserved it to the very end. Hadron engine eleki follows the same formula. Again, not trying to ban it, but a bolt beamer with actual attacking stats and outspeeds nigh everything is not weak.
In what way did they forget? How are they inaccurate? How is that portion you quoted invalid.
- Choiced Dracovish gets kills because it is faster via scarf. Hadron Eleki gets kills because it is naturally faster.
- Dracovish can only click one move because it is choice locked. Regieleki can only click one move because it is move pool locked.
- Dracovish only needs one move to sweep your entire team. Regieleki only needs one move to sweep your entire team.
- Fishous Rend and Rising Voltage both contain easily met conditions that cause their power to double and are further boosted by an exterior factor (Strong Jaw vs Terrain + Quark Drive boost)
- Dracovish is prevented from sweeping because you either (A) Halved the power by moving before it (B) Made keeping your immunity alive your number 1 priority or rarely (C) Sent out a mon that can straight up tank at least 3 hits. Eleki is prevented from sweeping because you either (A) Halved the power by changing terrain (B) Made keeping your immunity alive your number 1 priority or rarely (C) Sent out a mon that can straight up tank at least 3 hits.
- In both cases, if you see Eleki or Dracovish, odds are there is only one pokemon keeping your team from being swept. And if that pokemon falls or takes damage from anything other than Eleki or Dracovish, you auto lose.
Dracovish was not banned because there some pokemon could tank it; Dracovish was banned because the only passive immunity to water type was in the form of abilities. Dracozolt remained because electric attacks possess an entire type as an immunity instead of an ability. If ground types only resisted electric instead of being immune, electric types or many of their boons would be mass banned regardless of Hisuian Goodra existence. Why? Because just because a singular pokemon out of 1000 can tank an attack does not mean that something isn't broken or too powerful. But Ground is immune, so eleki likely will and will always be safe in this meta.
Anyways, with the above comparisons being listed, how was that person in anyway wrong in making a direct comparison of Regieleki to Dracovish? It's like saying Dracozolt and Dracovish are nothing alike. Regieleki is closer to dracovish (unlike Zolt) because Eleki has slightly higher stats and a damage boosting ability in hadron engine, which is 19% stronger than strong jaw. That puts its damage nearer to rain boosted dracovish. Both go Unga bunga if u let your immunity die.
Side Note: I apologize in advance if I am overestimating anyone's capability of reading allat.
Last edited:
It’s extremely rude when a person makes a constructive post with valid arguments they have for or against a mon and then your reply is
“I aint reading allat”
or “Skill issue”
like if u disagree with them just try and disprove their arguments or ignore
“I aint reading allat”
or “Skill issue”
like if u disagree with them just try and disprove their arguments or ignore
I want to thank you for agreeing with me and proving my prior statement further (I did read the entire post btw is was very informative) and especially for disregarding what Glalie said, i didnt say anything because i didnt know what to nor did i want to start unneeded drama. I also would like to thank DragonLordDX And Runo for their posts aswell
I will admit I was being brash and disingenuous with my first post, since the majorities of the cries for a Dragonite or Regieleki comes from a lack of understanding of the meta and proper teambuilding. About 90% of the teams I see on ladder are ho, and obviously dnite and eleki poses issues due to being able to outspeed and ohko all your setup sweepers. I personally have never used Dragonite and support having it banned, but the post I responded to do not make real arguments.
The first post I chose to ignore is a jumbled incoherent brick wall of text and mostly irrelevant damage calcs that somehow comes to the conclusion that the only real "counter" is refrigerate eleki.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 314-372 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 117-138 (34 - 40.1%) -- 33.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Dragonite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This does nothing lmao)
252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO
I mentioned Mew above, which you seem to have completely ignored, probably bc none of the coverage options help against it. Defensive regen swampert also works, but as we've seen above, tbolt does nothing to the regen waters anyway. Theres definitely more things I forgot about too.
-1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 136-162 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Pixilate Regieleki Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 114-136 (26.2 - 31.3%) -- 11% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Pixilate Regieleki Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 316-372 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
The first post I chose to ignore is a jumbled incoherent brick wall of text and mostly irrelevant damage calcs that somehow comes to the conclusion that the only real "counter" is refrigerate eleki.
Although it has access to a ton of coverage, it already has 4mss as it wants to run all of espeed, roost, dd, eq, plus everything else. Sure it can run mixed life orb like it use to do in svaaa, but it gets worn down hella fast between rocks and lo chip, and can be juggled much more easily, especially in a meta with double regen. This also means that its always still going to lose to whatever it didn't pack coverage for, such as gliscor if no ice move, and can be scouted with regen fini, mana or even tusk, as it lives even +1 espeed.
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 314-372 (72.3 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 117-138 (34 - 40.1%) -- 33.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery252 SpA Dragonite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Fini: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery(This does nothing lmao)
252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKOI mentioned Mew above, which you seem to have completely ignored, probably bc none of the coverage options help against it. Defensive regen swampert also works, but as we've seen above, tbolt does nothing to the regen waters anyway. Theres definitely more things I forgot about too.
-1 252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 84-100 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO252+ Atk Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 136-162 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKOIts prominent as a ladder gimmick but its not good lol as proven by tournament usage and the viability ranking. It risks being complete dead weight against some of the best mons in the tier, va corv, swampert, blissey, regen moon, ferro, etc. Hadron eleki is even worse bc it's dead weight against all those +all the ground types, so tack on gliscor, tusk, garchomp etc. Almost every good competitive team will naturally have one of these, so calling for a ban is an absurd take.
I would have no problem switching in Regen tusk as pixilate espeed does negligable damage, and tera blast doesnt even ohko. All lot of the same top tier mons like Swampert, ferro, Blissey, and Va corv are always gonna own u regardless.
252+ Atk Pixilate Regieleki Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 114-136 (26.2 - 31.3%) -- 11% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery252+ SpA Pixilate Regieleki Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 316-372 (72.8 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryThe calc disproves ur own point. If I'm only taking 30, why would I not repeatedly switch it in. Spdef Manaphy exists too. Running supercell is more troll than bringing the mon in the first place. Can't properly threaten water regens means that if it comes in on Mana, I'm clicking uturn and taking back momentum bc I know the mon in front of me cant do anything.
The differences are pretty obvious. The water absorb mons that answer dracovish are not good mon in themselves, and only have niches to check this one thing. Like I said above, most teams already pack perfectly solid Regieleki answer, meaning that its completely useless most of the time. Also, Regieleki will never beat its answer by itself, but vish can run coverage to wear down the wabs mons.
They forgot to include the actual good points and arguments.
I don't object to looking at Genesect, although in my opinion the problematic sets are Sheer Force LO and Tinted Lens. I do think Shift Gear sets complicate things but I don't think they're sole culprit here. The set variety makes counterplay tricky because physical and special sets have slightly different checks. Stuff like Shift Gear Serene Grace Genesect is a pretty fishy set in general, especially the one in the replay (depending on the set, Helmet corv (!!!) or phys def waters make you look like a chump), but they gain a lot more mileage when you don't know what to expect when it comes to which stat its attacking with, its coverage and its 4th move - sometimes even the 3rd move. I think double regen does help things out when it comes to checking Genesect since you can scout stuff easier but that tends to be a double-edged sword since it facilitates Genesect getting in.
I think this is the most productive point-of-view regarding the Regieleki situation. Regieleki is objectively speaking the worst of the viable Hadron Engine users bar maybe hisui-electrode. You don't have the crazy versatility or offensive-defensive capabilities of Koko, the synergistic STAB coverage of Rotom-W, the random coverage that Rotom-W, Thundurus and Heliolisk pull out, or the overall special attacking prowess that the non-Electric Hadron Engine users have. Regieleki thuds into Ground-types precisely because Specs Rising Voltage (and its speed) are the only things that make it stand-out. However, people losing to Regieleki could be a symptom of two things: 1) Poor Team Building 2) Hadron Engine being an overwhelming force in the teambuilder. I wouldn't put it past ladder making poor teambuilding decisions, but Hadron Engine has been on the watchlist for some time, so I will treat this as a real argument.
Personally, I haven't seen Hadron Engine be oppressive or broken in tournament play or the last ladder cycle, but I do use stuff like Hadron Engine Heliolisk to nudge victory if I'm down a game or something. There are mitigating factors here outside of Ground-types and pray. I will say though, AV Pert tanks most coverage options outside the hyper-specific HP Grass. AV Hands is a set that always surprised me with its efficacy into voltage mons, and even Meloetta can tank one and pivot out in a lot of instances. I would also argue that there's a lot of "big-brother" positioning in ND AAA with the flexibility of double Regen is a key factor in this debate. Most Hadron Engine users (bar Koko and Eleki) occupy a speed tier range of around base 100-110. There's quite a few potent Pokemon like Roaring Moon, Meowscarada, Zamazenta, Cinderace, Barraskewda, Deo-S, non-hadron Koko, Azelf, and the rare Alakazam that outspeed that range so Regen Vest with slow pivoting options only need to tank 1 hit decently well (think Hadron Raikou calcs into Meloetta) before they pivot out into something offensively threatening. Responding to a lot of Hadron Engine guys, in this sense, is similar to how you would respond to stuff like Specs Lele in most OU formats. In fact, that's how a lot of my teams handle stuff like Walking Wake, Ogerpon-Hearthflame and Wellspring, or random cheese like Haxorus. Yeah, I keep a few checks so I don't instantly crumple, but responding solely defensively against these threats robs you of momentum and can lead to a loss in the long-run.
Re: Dnite, I think the mon definitely needs to be looked at closely. It can be manageable with proper building / playing but you can cheese a lot of common checks with the extra 2 slots you have. Don't have any strong opinions on the mon outside of this, but I will be happy with it out of the picture.
You're right about this
The reason why you ignored it is irrelevant. The problem was the unnecessary rudeness. It was the equivalent of calling someone just to make them feel bad.
It only has to bring (bolt/beam) + fire or (bolt/beam)+ DDance to cover the vast majority. The other typings were listed just to say it has them, and can be cycled based on its teammates.
Life orb was never mentioned; it doesn't need life orb. Anything that boosts the power of espeed works just fine (i.e. sharp beak or skyplate). Dragonite has 130 base atk, raw espeed deals a third of goodra's hp and 50%+ to whatever doesn't resist & it isn't locked into a move. A DDance and everything gets 1 or 2 shot.
And it doesn't have to run those sets, those are just why I believe it should be banned. As people mentioned, it can just go entirely physical and sweep with frustration. Versatility of sets contribute to a pokemon being banned.
Dragonite does not exist in a vacuum. You leave out context:
This max HP, max Def tusk is nigh oneshot and works against your point. Fully defensive tusk taking that much is like chansey taking that much from focus blast or ting-lu taking that much from a choice banded Iron hands close combat. All 3 live, but the fact dragonite still does that much is a testament to the attacker's power.
The +1 attack is irrelevant because tusk is guaranteed 2HKO'd regardless, no item needed.
How exactly is tusk coming in on dragonite?
And if dragonite is holding an item?
+1 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 374-444 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
(This does nothing lmao)
This further supports my point. Notice how much your calc'd dragonite is doing without a +1 boost nor item. So yeah, once again Great Tusk is in the same ball park with chansey, ting lu, and iron hands. A super effective move nearly one-shotting any of them is a testament to the attacker.
Also ... u are seriously saying a Fini coming in and losing nearly 50% hp is nothing? (Or really any regenerator mon for that matter?) Like you specifically made these pokemon max defense for these calcs and this is how much they are taking.
Let's add more context. Who is entering on who? Fini is entering on dragonite. Now lets give dragonite a 1.2 boost item.
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 138-163 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
1 raw espeed. 40% Maximum became 40% Minimum. Now dragonite switches out, fini switches out to get hp back. Dragonite comes back in, now guess what? Fini cannot switch back in or it dies. Dnite can easily kill 2 regenerator mons by just clicking espeed because it's damage is not negligible. You can save that fini for purely a single switch in on dragonite and the moment it switches out, it stays out unless u are sacking it or something else.
That's not the end of it. This fini is max defense max hp in order to "check" dragonite ... now check this out.
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 198-234 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dragonite ISN'T forced out and can stay in to kill fini. So you literally sent fini in to die. This isn't a ddance boosted dragonite. Its a raw espeed. This is the same relevant example that Xodiac gave when he mentioned that even though corviknight can enter on dragonite, it can't force it out. It wins that 1v1 and traps it in a healing loop.
Hence:
That's a dragonite with no HP nor SpDef.
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Manaphy suffers the exact same problem. Plus they are going to be running assault vest, not leftovers and they have to choose between regenerator or volt absorb because of hadron engine's existence. Still worse is dragonite can choose to not take the damage. Note that these are all purely using Espeed. No dragon dance. No special attacks. But if it does click ddance :/ ha good luck. You are losing a few pokemon. The stab dragonite gets, over Entei, makes a big difference.
Plus if we're being consistent then we should do a thunderbolt calc for manaphy, just like fini. If manaphy is not assault vested then:
252 SpA Dragonite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pick your poison.
With choice band they all get 2 shotted by E-speed and the maxed stats mean nothing at that point.
You know what they say about assumptions. And once again, the issue wasn't you ignoring them, it was about the unnecessary action taken after. I hope you see what was actually wrong with that.
Anyways, I didn't quote the mew section because ... I didn't need to. Despite what you may think, I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm trying to prove myself right (without any use of "underhanded" means). I'd already gotten my points across, which were on the mixed dragonite sets and some "controversial mannerisms" displayed. To go beyond that was unnecessary.
The only goal is to "better the meta", so I did not feel the need to try to disprove your each and every syllable. Many people don't understand the distinction between trying to "win" and trying to be "correct". I don't like back and forthing, as it's just not worth it.
But I can backtrack a little, I guess :
More context:
I don't really need to say anything other than this swampert is not specially defensive, and regen swamperts are ran specially defensive for a reason. But I'll still redo the calcs anyways.
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 163-193 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 248-292 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dragonite wins without switching out, nor does it have to stay in to get the kill on max/max swampert.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Dragonite Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 127-150 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO
See, the problem is, there isn't just one type of dragonite lol. And that mew isn't regenerator.
And the problem with this is dragonite isn't meant to 1v1 anything, it's meant to do damage (boom, pow, bam). You're bringing mew in on it. Your response to dragonite is reactionary, not proactive. You have to heal that mew each time, and they can just double out into mew's death. And in general dragonite doesn't have to attack what's in front of it, as its the thing forcing things out.
You can indeed break stall with one mon. There are 2 concepts regarding this. "wallbreaker" as well as "stallbreaker"
I.E. Crawdaunt — Ogerpons — Umbreon — Roaring Moon — Zamazenta — Tapu Fini — Crabominable — Conkeldurr — Victini — Heatran — Mew — Dragonite :/
Yes, annoying ... that's it. Dragonite doesn't just get ice beam. Ice spinner. Casually 2 shots azelf. Removes terrain. Free Espeed. Azelf came in for nothing and must swap.
Mew and Azelf are psychic types as well and this is national dex, where psychic types actually fear dark types, and every mon has access to its full toolkit.
"Keep the mon that will die to espeed, in on espeed” — Which is it? Do you swap to the "tank" or give it a free turn? What type of dnite is it? Is it clicking frustration?
Now that is dragonite's affairs out of the way.
If it's meant to be banned, it will be. That aside...
Switch it in just fine, eh? Ok so, Great Tusk comes in ... takes 73% ... what will regieleki click next? Does tusk have a priority ground type move? And as mention before, -ate eleki tends to carry the z move ...
Is this the logic you are basing the dragonite stance on? As in, because it cannot purely OHKO the absolute thickest mons with maximum hp and def stats with espeed ... it is therefore healthy?
You are not taking 30%. 30% is near the bare minimum and is for the initial thunderbolt. You are taking 30 to 35 plus whatever move regieleki clicks next. Eleki doesn't have to switch out ... you do. And there are thunder cagers running around. If it just clicks bolt twice (especially if you u turn) ... You've taken 60-70% Hp and cannot reenter on it safely. Which again, it how you counter regen mons.
And isn't manaphy supposed to be Max Defense? For the dragonite? (How many dragonite "checks" are supposed to be ran on a single team? Dragonite doesn't exist in a vacuum.)
252 SpA Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Manaphy: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Supercell Slam is a legitimate move ran by eleki and multiple other pokemon. Calling it a troll pick is like calling high jump kick a troll pick.
So yeah, ban dragonite ... —ate regieleki is not weak. I believe that covers everything. See you all next vote (...not).
Last edited: