Suspect SV BH Suspect #6: Mega Blaziken

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:SV/Blaziken-Mega: MEGA BLAZIKEN SUSPECT :SV/Blaziken-Mega:

Akira​
Chessking345​
QT​
TTTech​
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Suspect​

Mega Blaziken has been one of the most dominant wallbreakers in the metagame for the past months thanks to its sky-high Attack, a serviceable Speed tier that lets it outspeed a fair portion of walls, and most crucially, STAB V-create. With Desolate Land boosted V-create, Mega Blaziken easily threatens OHKOs on even very bulky Pokemon such as Mega Audino, and 2HKOes Pokemon such as Mega Slowbro and neutral Fur Coat walls. This has led to an all-time-high usage of Fire-resistant Fur Coats such as Arceus-Water, Koraidon, and Eternatus, as outside of that the only remotely reliable defensive answers are cores like Regenerator Mega Slowbro + Fire Immunity or giving neutral Fur Coats Utility Umbrella, a niche item whose entire purpose is to check Mega Blaziken. Choice Band isn't the only Mega Blaziken set either. Shift Gear sets have been increasingly popular, using Shift Gear's boosts to achieve feats such as outspeeding and OHKOing would-be checks like Koraidon, Miraidon, and Fur Coat Zamazenta, as a result forcing teams to pack specific answers if they do not want to sack multiple Pokemon to force it out, even leading to usage of sets such as Air Balloon Fire-immune Flutter Mane. All of this does not account for Mega Blaziken's capability to run a variety of alternate coverage moves such as Glacial Lance, Bolt Strike, and Glaive Rush, nor alternative sets like Choice Scarf.

Mega Blaziken is absolutely not perfect though. Its Speed tier is middling, leaving it outsped by ever popular fast walls like Arceus formes, the Bikes, and Zamazenta, and a +Atk nature being almost necessary means would-be slower walls with +Speed natures can now outspeed it, such as Ho-Oh, Primal Kyogre, and Yveltal. This results in limited opportunities for Mega Blaziken to safely enter the field and click moves, especially with its vulnerability to all forms of entry hazards compared to competition like Mega Garchomp. V-create, despite being obscenely powerful, does need to account for not uncommon Fire-immunities, and its Speed and Defense drops are always problematic against Pokemon that now outspeed and threaten back hard; it also means Shift Gear sets often cannot sweep outright. Lastly, due to Mega Blaziken's heavy reliance on Desolate Land V-create, its Close Combat and coverage moves lose out on power that make it much harder to break past dedicated answers like Fur Coat Arceus-Water than other breakers such as Mega Garchomp.

These factors combined can make Mega Blaziken straining in the teambuilder, where it demands either running one of select few reliable answers, some of which are rather middling against the rest of the meta, or a robust core consisting of soft checks and Pokemon that deny its entry. It can also feel polarizing, where it is able to exert a huge amount of pressure if able to repeatedly fire off attacks against teams without resilient checks, but becoming a large liability when facing one of its harder counters. Is it too overbearing, or are there sufficient viable counterplay options? As such, Mega Blaziken is been suspected.

Requirements:

Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in Gen 9 Balanced Hackmons before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played BH before the test, full stop.)
At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact April, Giagantic, dhelmise or a member of staff.

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2900 (b-value 5). The deadline for getting requirements will be <t:1754031540:f>

Voting:
Once the suspect period is over, everyone who has obtained reqs will be tagged. The post will then outline a process of blind voting, which will be clarified once the time arrives. For now, follow the above "Requirements" subheading to ensure that you have achieved requirements and linked your account

A supermajority (>=60%) of implement votes is required to ban Mega Blaziken from Balanced Hackmons

TL;DR:
- The COIL value is 2900
- You must ladder on a newly-created alt of any name
- You must link your suspect alt with your smogon account using /linksmogon
- The suspect test will run conclude on <t:1754031540:f>
 
Can the council provide explanation why blaziken was suspected instead of v-create? Because blaziken is clearly far from the only abuser of v-create. For stab users there is Ho-oh, blacephalon and fire arceus albeit all are kinda mid BUT every Physical attacker can use v-create as coverage like unecro, garchomp and even weird stuff like greninja and beedrill. I personally think blaziken without v-create is strong at best but nowhere near banworthy. Did the council even consider a V-create ban, and if so, why was blaziken chosen?
 
Can the council provide explanation why blaziken was suspected instead of v-create? Because blaziken is clearly far from the only abuser of v-create. For stab users there is Ho-oh, blacephalon and fire arceus albeit all are kinda mid BUT every Physical attacker can use v-create as coverage like unecro, garchomp and even weird stuff like greninja and beedrill. I personally think blaziken without v-create is strong at best but nowhere near banworthy. Did the council even consider a V-create ban, and if so, why was blaziken chosen?
Please consult tiering policy.
 
The tiering policy framework isn't applicable to BH because of the meta's modular nature. When every legal mon can unconditionally learn any legal move and have any legal ability, considering moves to be "intrinsic parts of the pokemon's design" is not a useful way of thinking, and we have no reason to prioritize Pokemon bans over move/ability bans other than blind adherence to dogma. I've criticized the tiering policy framework in the past here for providing very little justification for its own existence, and egregious applications such as this case are precisely what I've been trying to cut down on.

The only thing that should matter in BH tiering is addressing the root of the problem and cutting out the diseased area as neatly as possible. We have ample precedent for this: Hadron Engine was banned, despite only being problematic on a couple Electric-types; omniboosting and Power Trip were banned, despite each only having a few noteworthy users; Photon and Lumina were banned even though they were fine outside of a handful of fast Psychic-types. For other examples, see Bolt Beak, Protean, and Electro Shot.

Mega Blaziken has a mediocre statline with Attack as the only good stat, has no easy kill on Imposter unlike the majority of the banlist (especially the closest applicable case, Kartana), and has Ho-Oh, Hearthflame, and Arceus-Fire as incredibly annoying ready replacements that will still practically speaking require a solid V-Create switchin on every slower team. (In Hearthflame's case, you can't even use Imposter here. Have people so soon forgotten that I literally brought this mon to OMPL last year for that reason?) This also isn't even getting into things like Sun, which will barely feel the loss of Mega Blaziken at all, given how the standard technique nowadays is to bring some Growth Speed Boost mon and kill every special wall with unstabbed +2 V-Create.

Usually when an ineffectual ban is put in place, like the nonsense with banning Lumina but keeping MMX in the tier, you're able to buy at least a little bit of time just off the sheer laziness from people refusing to build new optimized teams around the element that should have been banned in the first place. I don't even think we have that luxury in this case. Every single Mega Blaziken team can freely switch to another Fire-type and retain most of their viability, while the rest of us have nothing better to do than somehow find a way to click Stone Axe harder, which doesn't even work into sun. I'm not even sure if I would truly want to ban V-Create, but that's the conversation we always should've been having in the first place if we're actually out to fix the metagame.
 
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i hate this ladder.

used this for 90% of the run (this sucks ASS i almost lost a couple games because the ting-lu wasnt even improofed), the remaining 10% is either superman stall or zacc or mgarde

yeah get chicken out tbh i wanna keep vc garchomp and hooh and whatever random mixed breaker those guys are cool
(tbh if council were truth nukers they would restrict blaziken from using vc instead but alas)
 
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i have no idea how i did this well, i suck at this meta

I DESPITE BH AND I NEVER WANT TO LADDER AGAIN

In all seriousness, getting reqs for this wasn't too bad. I used the Gardevoir balance sample for the whole run, and it did way better than I expected. Anyway, I think the chicken should go. but since I didn't use bombsquad my opinion is invalid
 
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:pmd/tyranitar:


-==XxX==-
-==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--






-==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--==XxX==--

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Unreal replays:
:zamazenta::zacian: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2406329486?p2
:melmetal: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2406326748?p2
:heracross-mega: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2406315914?p2
:heracross-mega: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2405885455?p2
:alakazam-mega: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...06300236-7c9lh3jirrlod3edfnfobo039ye36eapw?p2
:iron valiant: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...06342231-2c52gki9n3bybc5cdnm73wthcjt97mepw?p2



Real replays:
:garchomp-mega: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...06301979-qppxlanswnkuq20o8gc7er8pmoj7b5mpw?p2
:blaziken-mega: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2406319643-e1olkqj75qxo0ixil2mcyycvv5pi6vepw
:arceus-ground: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...06345908-bltr04fj43rfj6tb57waoxw8bjq019ppw?p2
:greninja-ash: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...06366698-6os8slwi9guxqp1yxchu80e41o1s2kjpw?p2
:arceus-ground: - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...06371432-lsnebqnyohhv0j7xcfnjh9osb5mbipepw?p2




Generational spinblocking performance by my favourite spooky ghost that can't be this cute: Flutter Mane
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After 52 grueling matches, I have gained reqs. Please ban this chicken.

Here are the teams I used along the way:

https://pokepast.es/f212ff7e0f358a5f
I used this Cityscapes stall for at least 30 games or the run, started to struggle into setup and chomp tho so I switched to another team.

https://pokepast.es/d803a8e29d39c49e

I then switched to this absolutely goated team. Changed Chansey to kasib berry tho because of ladder cheese unburden sets.

Here are the only three noteworthy replays from the run:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...06483482-baqb7f1a84obm5nybbmtyv0pokm999jpw?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...04141973-fk9imwg4nypus3oji7u90s5iuip3j89pw?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2406443113-ac1pa8hm9qw6suofn31i32x62948cxjpw

I don’t recommend playing 52 ladder games, I had many moments of being tilted and many breaks were taken. Anyways, ban chicken.
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After 52 grueling matches, I have gained reqs. Please ban this chicken.

Here are the teams I used along the way:

https://pokepast.es/f212ff7e0f358a5f
I used this Cityscapes stall for at least 30 games or the run, started to struggle into setup and chomp tho so I switched to another team.

https://pokepast.es/d803a8e29d39c49e

I then switched to this absolutely goated team. Changed Chansey to kasib berry tho because of ladder cheese unburden sets.

Here are the only three noteworthy replays from the run:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...06483482-baqb7f1a84obm5nybbmtyv0pokm999jpw?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...04141973-fk9imwg4nypus3oji7u90s5iuip3j89pw?p2

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2406443113-ac1pa8hm9qw6suofn31i32x62948cxjpw

I don’t recommend playing 52 ladder games, I had many moments of being tilted and many breaks were taken. Anyways, ban chicken.View attachment 757563
Ive never played BH but i played 2 games and i already wanted to quit, i couldnt even imagine playing 52
edit of honesty: definetely experience issue (as a vgc player, i hate CTS and i dont know what mons run, making it even more frustrating)
 
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Finally finished laddering, and it was a weird experience. Fairy aura xerneas undeniably sucks, but the amount of work it would consistantly put in in games was unreal. Almost every time I could set rocks and claim at least one kill, often two, so the challenge wasn't as real as I was hoping.

Anyway wrt blaziken over other fire types, all the other fire types are much worse. Firstly, none of them can make a remotely as good choice sets, since they're all weak to rocks and the damage just isn't there. Their secondary types won't fix it either, like how Hogerpon still can't beat water types or char x can technically muscle through fc dragons but can't even beat zamazenta. Setup guys are almost as bad; again, the only one that can beat zamazenta is shitmon darmanitan, and it needs to get lucky on rolls. You have a much harder time setting up, get far more suffocated by random dragon types that blaziken can just power through and you can't, and overall it at best cripples the team consistancy.

If there's any argument that vcreate should be banned instead, it would be arguing that it's broken on Garchomp. I personally am not convinced, since in terms of real game performance chomper has frankly always seemed fine, but at least unlike the other fire types that guy is unhealthy in theory. If it was broken on chomper I'd see that as a decent sign to go after the move instead, but until more evidence for that materialized (hpl maybe?) I think it's pretty clear blaziken is the one to look at. Personally, though, I honestly think it's kind of fine? Blaziken can really punish teams that let it in too much, but having some amount of that is a good thing. You *should* have an incentive to not play super passively and care about positioning. Blaziken isn't neccesary for that role, and for all that it's less consistant the SG sets do more toxic things, but I'm not totally sold he needs to go.
 
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used hearthflame in every game, both losses were due to misplays

:ting-lu::alakazam-mega::celesteela::ogerpon-hearthflame::chansey::giratina: first time actually using bomb squad. genuinely how do you guys stand this. i kept getting into these hundred-turn blunder-incident-esque grindfests against completely standard regenvest/fc structures (or against bad structures after a boost/vcreate miss), and let me go out of my way to say that hearthflame was not at fault here at all

:ogerpon-hearthflame::arceus-steel::eternatus::flutter mane::yveltal::great tusk: i got sick of bomb squad so i built this alternate version of summoning hell in like 5 minutes and it won so many games in like 20 turns. knock/headlong/volt tackle steelceus works incredibly well and im mad i didnt mainline it earlier

:ogerpon-hearthflame::garchomp-mega::kyogre-primal::chansey::registeel::arceus-fairy: such a fucking troll team. once my chomp got burned by steela beak blasting my edrift so i just heal belled it off and won. the lo 2atks ogre is so awesome, unfortunately didnt get to do much in the games (edit: objectively speaking this shit is not very good cause we have no sapblocker lol)

anyway im genuinely just not really convinced by the pro-ban arguments at all. vcreate being as big of a presence in the meta as it is means that *at best* everyone will still carry heavy anti-fire technology, at worst teambuilding becomes less constrained but in return fires become a legitimate matchup fish (we already see this happening with desolate land fireceus). i might still vote ban just to force people to build some new teams for once but i just dont think we're solving many problems here
 
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apologies to the person who previously had this alt and never registered it lol i have stolen your 6-13 gen 6 ranbats record

will be voting dnb on blaziken. very good mon but i'm not convinced it's even the best breaker in the tier. its certainly a boring mon and can sometimes create lopsided, railroaded games, but the degree to which it constrains teambuilding is vastly overstated, and i find its susceptibility to passive damage, middling speed and poor bulk, and lack of set variety make it easier to play around in game than it appears on paper.

my great hope is that in gen 10 once we've once again banned primal groudon and dgz, and people are once again beginning to complain about how they have to run a fur coat fire resist on every team or else there's no other possible way to beat mega emboar or whoever, the new players who are less conditioned to accept the permanent presence of a one hundred and eighty base power attack in the metagame will at least discuss the possibility of a suspect on v-create. we were talking about it in oras! it took us over two years to ban moody in that metagame and even then we thought it was kinda fucked up to have a 'delete steel type' button that you can put on any guy with a decent attack stat. how many fire type physical breakers do we have to ban before we address the common factor here?

postscript: please consider unbanning photon geyser after this one. should have at least been reconsidered after deo-a and mmx were banned
 
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Most games are played with :necrozma-dusk-mane::aerodactyl-mega::blaziken-mega::giratina::chansey::arceus-fairy:

Replays:
:necrozma-dusk-mane: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/...09089759-y8wltan98lsl74qj87lo32yf29dehb7pw?p2
:aerodactyl-mega: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2407222155-pb39qthm2nwxwcq7oog91s8m78fvx5bpw
:blaziken-mega::arceus-fairy: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9balancedhackmons-2406628204-9hv0leuxpv5a6l1557sa0dknq8ycao0pw

Weaknesses:
:arceus-ghost::flutter-mane::chansey: if you are Nihilslave
Everything if you are not

Personal Take on this suspect:
  • I don't think Blaziken-Mega should be banned. Players of Gen 9 BH are generally bad at adapting to meta changes and building good teams.
  • Blaziken-Mega doesn't become too obvious as the main problem compared to V-Create. We should never compromise with council when they make bad decisions.
  • We're already banning too many things, which makes the tier unappealing to fresh players. BH should be and has always been BH Ubers, not BH OU.
 
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:ho-oh: :arceus-electric: :tyranitar-mega: :zacian: :kyogre-primal: :audino-mega:

reqs and team! not the most inspired team but it got the job done, shoutout to all the low ladder players who sacked gren turn one to my zacian, idk why that specifically always happens. also thank you cityscapes for the broken zacian set. funny ttar mu fish which can be replaced by any consistent pokemon that also blocks sap.

i truly do not feel strongly about the chicken. leaning on dnb bc it never felt super overbearing on any of my teams and its funny to see how its improofed.

getting reqs after a big tour win is always a great feeling
 
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