Announcement Gen 9 SV National Dex UU Metagame Discussion

[Runo]

NDUU is currently is a solid spot right now so its understandable to take a look at potential unbans. That being said Rain's unban does not add diversity to the tier.



This core alone is already going to be incredibly frustrating to prepare for as Pelipper and Swampert are already incredibly strong Rain pivots to enable Archaludon, who in turn mauls all of the "typical" Rain checks such as Slowbro and Tangrowth. Mons such as Hippowdon and Tyranitar just simply do not win against it head on either as Dragonium Archaludon can wipe Hippowdon off the map at +1, while Tyranitar gets Body Pressed or Aura Sphered to also lose long term. Common bulky grass types like Mega Venusaur and Hydrapple have major flaws into rain such as Venusaur having its recovery stunted due to the weather and Hydrapple hating the Dragon typing more than ever because of Archaludon and Mega Swampert's Ice Punch coverage. You mention Rillaboom sweeping rain bar the Flying and Dragon types but threats in question are so insanely powerful under rain that Rillaboom can't be a long term answer either. Rain guys such as Salamence, Galarian Moltres, and again Archaludon forces both sides to engage in very uninteractive trade wars. If none of the rain checks can actually shut it down fully, that means you most likely need to overcompensate via check stacking.

Consistently checking this core alone puts unnecessary strain on the metagame as a whole. Throwing in the other 3 team slots into the mix for yet another Rain Wallbreaker such as Keldeo, Barraskewda, Kingdra, Basculegion-F, or Hurricane spamming, or whatever flexible utility Rain needs to be powerful just makes me wonder why I'm bothering to bend overbackwards trying to check rain and its multitude of variants when the tier was fine before it.

Damp Rock ban allows people to run out the clock faster but it doesn't make rain balanced. All the checks are still shaky, the constrain still remains. Rock bans are primarily focused on by tiers who use manual setters.

 

[TBIC106]

Oh hey not posted here in a while, let's fix that.

Why is drizzle still banned? Or at least, why is damp rock not banned instead?
- Tier has a ton of top tier fat water resists that cook the swift swimmers, especially the regen dudes in slowbro and hydrapple
- Hippowdon replacing Ting Lu as the fat ground gives a bunch of teams a weather setter by default plus it's an Archaludon counter. Tyranitar is also very viable
- Rillaboom should solo rain save for the obligatory bird/dragon, Lucha's speed tier into rain's lack of defensive utility should be pretty scary too

Adding rain back into the metagame would promote diversity while not limiting teambuilding given rain answers are already everywhere. But also I kind of just want to hear the rationale

I can't provide full context for this, I wasn't a part of the council when Drizzle was banned, but I can provide some perspective on why Drizzle isn't being freed and likely won't be for a little while.

Set

Kingdra @ Life Orb / Choice Specs
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Draco Meteor/Ice Beam
- Hurricane
- Flip Turn

Kingdra is an incredibly powerful threat into the tier, with basically perfect coverage and momentum tools for the few match ups where it can't just click a delete button. Its defensive typing also makes it hard to threaten with the traditional anti-rain tools, like Rillaboom and Slowking, making it virtually unbeatable into offense not carrying exactly Slowking or RillaLucha on HO, and even those can struggle immensely. This is legitimately one of the main things keeping Drizzle from being unbanned, though it's far from the only threat on the list.

Some Calcs

252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela in Rain: 222-263 (55.9 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Hydrapple: 478-567 (114.9 - 136.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Hydrapple: 517-611 (124.2 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Stamina Archaludon: 348-412 (102 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 184+ SpD Amoonguss: 247-291 (57.1 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 237-281 (65.1 - 77.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Set

Swampert-Mega @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch / Stealth Rock
- Flip Turn / Bulk Up

Kingdra's physical counterpart, and the tier's second best mon back in Alpha when rain was legal, Mega Swampert has many of the same traits as Kingdra, though its grass weakness makes it much easier to threaten out or revenge with Rillaboom. Its coverage is similarly perfect when it drops Stealth Rocks to run Ice Punch, with the exception of Mega Venusaur, who's recovery is limited by the rain set by Pelipper. It also has an impressive level of bulk, so short of exactly a grass move it is very difficult to threaten this behemoth in any meaningful way. That said, it struggles more to break some of our blanket physical walls, notably Skarmory and Rotom-Wash, which makes it easier to handle for a chunk of teams.

More calcs

252 Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 72 Def Amoonguss: 222-262 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Hydrapple: 336-396 (80.7 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Kills after rocks + waterfall chip)
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rillaboom: 200-236 (58.6 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Venusaur-Mega: 153-180 (42 - 49.4%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Swampert-Mega Liquidation vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Rain: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I realised after calcing these that they were all jolly for some reason, idk why the calc set isn't adamant

Set

Archaludon EVs are complicated, idk what they would be here so I'm just going to use the OU set except press over sphere.
Archaludon @ Assault Vest
Ability: Stamina
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flash Cannon
- Electro Shot
- Body Press

Hey would you look at that a built in Rillaboom counter that actively profits off it clicking any move! This is probably what pushes rain over the edge into brokenness at the moment. A special wall that also functions as a wallbreaker with one of the most ridiculous moves to come out of gen 9 in Electro Shot (second only to Ceaseless Edge), Archaludon provides stability to the concise defensive cores rain structures employ and frees up teambuilding so much that it's not even funny. The only defensive answer to this mon is specially defensive Hippowdon and Gastrodon, which is great if you can catch it on an Electro Shot or Body Press, not so much if you find a Draco Meteor on its way. And given that the other half of this rain core is primarily anti-offense, that's exactly what the rain structure needs.

You'd think I would run out of calcs

252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 201-237 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Venusaur-Mega: 195-229 (53.5 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Archaludon Electro Shot vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 324-382 (81.6 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ursaluna: 406-481 (101.2 - 119.9%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock and burn damage
0 Def Archaludon Body Press vs. 104 HP / 56 Def Excadrill: 202-238 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Archaludon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 104 SpD Hydrapple: 482-570 (115.8 - 137%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Hopefully this gives some insight into the specifics of why rain keeps getting further down the list to retest alongside Dan and Runo's posts. The amount of centralisation it would force at the current moment is untenable for the metagame.

 

[Danbear02]

Metagame Thoughts​

Gonna give some ramblings here about the current state of the metagame post-Hawlucha in case anyone currently playing in the NDUU tour was curious.


Hawlucha's ban has opened up the ability for diverse offensive and bulky offense team styles in the metagame. With teams no longer forced to run Slowbro, Rotom-W has returned to form as the premier defensive pivot with its ability to check 2 of the best Pokemon in the metagame in Aegislash and Mega Aerodactyl. Rotom-W is also incredibly hard to Volt-block with Electric-immunities like Hippowdon, Excadrill, and Zeraora terrified of both Burns and Hydro Pump, meaning Rotom almost always forces momentum, even if Pokemon like Hydrapple and Rillaboom can eat the Volt Switch. Having a reliable Defog option back is also very nice, though Pain Split + Wisp is nightmarish to deal with for many offense teams.


This thing has always been controversial and was the only other Pokemon on the tiering slate. With Hawlucha dealt with and no other immediately broken threats, it may be time to look at this Pokemon.

The reason Aegislash has been so controversial for so long is the power provided by its typing, movepool, and stats. More specifically, Ghost-Steel is absurd defensive typing, with multiple relevant immunities and resistances. Its movepool includes priority, status, and great coverage like Close Combat, and while it notably lacks recovery, it can opt to use Leftovers+Kings Shield to annoy defensive teams in longer games. Aegislash's stats are the main concern; its almost Iron Hands-esque in its ability to trade 1v1 with nearly every threat, doubly so if it uses a Z-Crystal to boost its Shadow Ball, or more commonly, Shadow Claw to KO pretty much every neutral target in the tier.

This much is obvious; the bigger issue is Aegislash's chokehold on the metagame in the way it can take over games at the drop of a hat. The main set Aegislash uses is Swords Dance, with Close Combat, Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, Swords Dance, and the option for moves like Kings Shield or Steel-coverage on specific teams. With a Z-Crystal, this set has very few defensive checks. The most relevant one is Rotom-W, which can outspeed and burn Aegislash before it uses its Z-Crystal, still taking 65-75 percent in the process as it has to run 241 speed to not lose to Jolly Aegislash. Pokemon like Hippowdon and Buzzwole can stomach hits, but mostly crumple to Ghost-Z at +2 and fail to KO Aegislash in Shield Forme.

Surprisingly, Aegislash has much more plentiful offensive counterplay; Dark-types like Hydreigon, Bisharp, Moltres-Galar, and Lokix can switch in to Aegislash and threaten KO's on it, though Bulkier sets can live even Dark STAB and KO back easily; this is excarbated by the fact that Aegislash doesn't often immediately go for a sweep, which means that switching into a Close Combat means you've lost crucial health on your Dark-type that Aegislash can abuse later with boosted Shadow Sneaks. Speaking of boosted Shadow Sneaks, Aegislash does insane things like live an Iron Moth Fiery Dance and KO with Shadow Sneak at +4, so if that is your sole offensive counterplay, you might just lose to a +4 Aegislash after switching your strong Fire-type attacker in to try and KO it.

Its not all bad though. Aegislash can often be contained to 1 Swords Dance and be handled with already strong Pokemon like Excadrill, Mega Aerodactyl, Hydrapple, Mega Venusaur, Tyranitar, and other faster Pokemon that can stomach Aegislash's boosted priority. In such a bulky metagame, Aegislash provides a nice offensive boost to break through structures often composed of Celesteela, Clefable, and other bulky staples. These playstyles can even defeat Aegislash by baiting out the Z-Move (or saccing a Mon) and then beating it with another bulky Pokemon, though sustaining this damage is quite detrimental against teams built around these types of trades, like HO.

Oh yea, and Aegislash can run special sets as well to surprise checks like Rotom-W and Buzzwole with a clean OHKO from Z-Shadow Ball.

Anyways speaking of HO....​

I'm quite displeased with the state of HO currently. I feel that we have reached a point where the metagame has stabilized defensively, but we still have so many volatile/fishy offensive threats which make it hard to build cohesive teams. I love the stability defensive behemoths like Celesteela provide, but Pokemon like Booster Energy Iron Crown or Iron Moth, Moltres-Galar, and Blacephalon are incredibly volatile.


These Paradox Pokemon are sometimes frustrating to deal with offensively due to Booster Speed making them difficult to outspeed. Even if you can outspeed them, they certainly are difficult to KO; Iron Crown typically boosts both of its defenses with Iron Defense and Calm Mind, whereas Iron Moth just lines up quite well into most Speed Control options. Iron Crown's "Demon" set, or Iron Defense, Calm Mind, Stored Power set, has limited counterplay, mainly defensive in the forms of Celesteela and Mega Sableye as well as phazing from Hippowdon and Goodra-Hisui but some offensive counterplay in the form of Victini and Aegislash. Offensive teams often fail to scratch it after it grabs an Iron Defense, especially if Grassy Terrain is up. Iron Moth on the other hand is similar; it devours offensive threats like Scizor, Rillaboom, and Enamorus while falling flat if you have an answer like Thunder Wave Slowking and Blissey or SpDef Hippowdon. It can even run Discharge to snipe Mega Aerodactyl.


These two have always been fishy; if you have a Tyranitar or Garganacl you'll be fine (although Z-Solar Beam is kinda cool to lure these), and if not they might just sweep your team after grabbing a Speed and Special Attack boost.

The main frustration here is the inability to build non-HO offense teams. If you want to be good against all of these offensive threats, you often have to lean bulky offense or even just balance. This is not to say there isn't variety in offensive teamstyles; you absolutely can build good and strong offense teams. It just means that often, you will have one or two "unwinnable" matchups to a fishy Mon like Moltres-Galar or Blacephalon because you had to take a KO against Rillaboom with your Iron Moth and now Blacephalon gets a free Calm Mind and runs away with the game.

Honestly I'm not sure how to fix this. I think the metagame is in a decent state right now; there is a lot of freedom when building and you can use many different team styles. It just feels like currently we are in a game of Rock-Paper-Scissors-Gun, where the Gun is HO and sometimes you just win. I don't think its feasible to ban all these HO mons because they are technically not all broken in a vacuum, but together they are frustrating. I'm going to keep building and testing different Mons and see what shakes out, and I have been having a lot of fun testing anti-HO tools like Choice Band Lokix and leaning on Mons like AV Mienshao to help blanket check attackers on offense teams, so I'm sure there's much more to be found in the current metagame.

I would love to hear more about what people think about the various Pokemon I've discussed here (and any others you think are worth discussing!). What are your thoughts on Aegislash; is it Broken or Balanced? Iron Crown? Iron Moth (surely this isn't broken for a 17th time)? Where do you think the metagame stands? Good luck to everyone in the NDUU Tour; I'm interested in seeing it shake out!

 

[Runo]

These have been some fairly good examples of HO structures, seen during the early rounds of NatDex UU Open putting in the work against a wide array of archetypes. Here is a breakdown on how they tend to work:

1. The Lead
   • Doesn't really matter who the lead is (I've seen teams use Shuckle, Froslass, Azelf, etc to decent effect for example) what matters is how it enables its partners. Leads are fairly plug and play and up to preference in a lot of cases but each lead has a fairly specific way in grabbing high amounts of momentum which can catch teams that fail to prepare for them off guard. Excadrill Leads are considered the poster child as it sports all of solid power, speed, bulk, and utility. It is incredibly hard to deny a lead Excadrill their rocks and opponents often need to remove hazards later in the game as their removal is able to be punished hard by Excadrill's antics via Mold Breaker Earthquake in Rotom-W's case or Toxic in regards to things like Serperior. Mew leads should not be counted out either, as they have become seriously threatening since their innovation in NatDex Blind Draft due to the fact that Will-o-Wisp + Taunt variants are adept at disrupting a lot of traditional HO counterplay as it can quickly rack up a lot of detrimental chip damage against an opponent. It is especially harder as they incorporate items such as Red Card and Rocky Helmet to make HO harder to respond to consistently. Araquanid is not consistent per se but it has powerful matchup fish factor, easily punishing teams that dare to drop Mega Aerodactyl as other speed control options are simply too slow even after Choice Scarf or became way less relevant (hello Zeraora).
2. The Broken Breaker
   • Oftentimes, in order to avoid a shutdown against Balance and Stall teams, HO teams will employ a threat that is seriously frustrating to wall. Although they definitely have flaws that show more clearly on a more standard team, HO allows them to become insanely powerful traders that mandate a hard check to them in order to avoid losing a vital defensive Pokemon such as Hippowdon or Celesteela (common targets that these traders will target). The loss of these defensive staples to a trade such as these sway the game in the HO user's favor, as cleaners such as Celesteela and Iron Moth can rush the team unopposed. Aegislash is already a pretty controversial figure even on standard teams (attributed to the dissimilarity in counterplay between its versatile and variable sets) but by far the most annoying set in the builder is the classic Swords Dance Ghostium Z variant. After a boost, borderline nothing is a check to it as any ghost resist or immune is put down hard by its Close Combat. It is only capable of being consistency revenge killed due to its lack of speed although even Shadow Sneak can still chunk a lot of blanket revenge killers such as Mienshao or Mega Aerodactyl incredibly hard. Bisharp carries a similar stature and is fairly equal to Aegislash in power, except it is capable of hitting insanely hard even without a Z-Crystal (which it often saves to lure the real targets like Hydrapple or again Hippowdon) whilst dishing out heavy Knock Offs to the rest of the team. Ursaluna takes "frustrating to wall" to jawdropping levels. It cannot be walled by traditional methods, there is no sitting on it. There is only switching in to take a hit and immediately hitting it back as hard as you can or you die. Skarmory and Buzzwole are the only real checks to this and even then Skarmory is stretching it because of Swords Dance and Taunt (or Smack Down lol). Galarian Moltres and Thundurus take a tried and tested method of wallbreaking whereby they nuke something with their Z-Crystal, although their hitting on the special side make walling them significantly harder to do. Galarian Moltres's only two checks are Goodra-H and Tyranitar while Thundurus-I has no real checks whatsoever depending on the Z-Move used and the coverage used.
3. The Speed Control
   • Often used to shore up the matchups towards more offensively based teams such as opposing HOs because of their ability to reverse the opponent's momentum both offensively and defensively, they are still significantly useful breakers and sweepers when the time calls. Dragon Dance Mega Aerodactyl for example isn't particularly hard to shut down but can definitely "odds" its way to a win via crit Stone Edges while anything that could soak up that crit end up fumbling to its Earthquake or Dual Wingbeat. Standard revenge killers such as Mienshao just fold hard to this, as do any teams relying as Buzzwole or Celesteela as a primary blanket check to partners like Aegislash. Rillaboom ensures that opposing Mega Aerodactyl and Excadrill aren't frustrating to beat, but the fact it can use its Terrain to enable a shit ton of partners (notably Iron Moth and Crown) is valued for an HO team especially has it can hit extremely hard after its own boost from Swords Dance. (Wood Hammer can dish out massive damage against Aegislash for example). Serperior's Glare and General utilty such as Defog, Taunt or more offensive approaches such as Normalium Z Hyper Beam make it quite annoying to deal with, often punishing switch ins from Mega Latias, Hydrapple, or Celesteela. Iron Moth and Iron Crown technically can qualify under this slot but they are significantly more "one trick" so its better saved for the following section:
4. The Broken Sweeper [Stack]
   • These are all pretty broken in the sense that counterplay against them is extremely limited after they setup. They are more than capable of either running away with the game or taking half of the opponent's team with them before they go down. A key factor between all of them: they can consistently trigger their speed boosts without major hassle, which often leads to them shredding teams with their augmented or naturally high bulk to brute force through a lot of checks. Iron Crown is the epitome of this concept as its Iron Defense Calm Mind sets are borderline impossible to shut down with any rhyme or reason. Aegislash has to play the game very specifically or it will get destroyed by Stored Power the second it exits Shield Forme. Meanwhile aspects such as Lokix, Excadrill, Hippowdon, etc are borderline incapable of revenge killing it in one hit and will tend to be killed by Focus Blast as coverage. Outside of that the counterplay is hoping a Thunder Wave user was loaded or getting a good sequence with the soft checks. Celesteela can just cheese away games because of the Air Slash flinches but once it's setup, Celesteela goes beyond do or die and attempts to hax as much as it possibly can in order to progress the game. Iron Moth, Blacephalon, and Victini share similar jobs and will often be employed to share checks so that the partnering Pokemon can end the game after weakening said check down by one of the trio to make way for one of the partners in question or the aforementioned Celesteela or Iron Crown as well.
5. Defensive Profile Strengthening
   • I would say its more optional here but some teams appreciate the additional padding provided by a mon's defensive typing. Scizor is a really nice Mega Aerodactyl and Iron Boulder check for example, while Pecharunt stat-walls most of the physically based metagame. Hisiuan Zoroark is an oddity because it is a breaker as threatening as Thundurus-I but isn't used much. Its usage case to begin is centered around farming Aegislash centric compositions.

With these 4-5 tenets in mind, we can understand the thought process behind how and why people would choose to run HO in this tier as opposed to something generally more skill expressive. The HO gameplans are railroaded and its fairly easy to chain favorable matchups in which you seldom need to play well. In spite of all of this, preparing to face HO is not easy at all and it is a major cause for a drop in consistency in the metagame due to the optimizations it received and the high variance attributed to modern HO as a playstyle. HO can get a leg up on every other playstyle without sacrificing a lot of major matchups significantly easier (ex: on Balance and Stall you might as well be writing a Doctorate Thesis on how you accounted for all of the major aspects of the tier and still ended up falling short in the HO department).


One such optimization should come off as pattern recognition because of how controversial it is and how prevalent it is on HO: Iron Moth. Present on the common HO compositions since the format existed, it recently learned how to branch out and explore new sets such as 4 Attacks with Discharge. This concept abandons the traditional Stall and Fat matchups against Blissey and Chansey and instead gives Iron Moth the opportunity to eliminate the significantly more common Mega Aerodactyl. The frustrating part is that this change is cyclical, and Iron Moth will start returning back to Morning Sun when players detect a surge of the blobs and Tyranitar in order to check it badly. This cycling of variants is insanely constraining and results in similar centralization and stagnation seen in the middle-era Ting-Lu metagame. There is a significant difference in the modern day compared to the old Ting-Lu slops: Iron Moth can almost definitely strong arm its counterplay because of its coverage and only needs to contend with removing Tyranitar, instead of both it and the titan that was Ting-Lu. Hippowdon, Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Latias are nice for sure but they in no way have the bulk required to consistently handle it unless you conserve them specifically for Iron Moth. This is not realistic in a very high amount of game scenarios, especially as these HOs are constructed in such a way that these last bastions to Iron Moth are forced in by other concerning threats such as Iron Crown or Blacephalon. Stacking such commanding threats on top of Iron Moth makes it impossible for the average joe to consistently respond to the amount of pressure they exert on the teambuilder.


Speaking of high pressure on the team builder, Iron Crown straight up should be quickbanned from the tier if we target Aegislash ever and should Aegi remain free it should be the very next suspect test. Calm Mind + Iron Defense + Booster Energy + Stored Power (IDCM or Demon Crown for short) is one of the most toxic things to ever hit the tier since Tera Melmetal and Dondozo. Iron Crown with this set has no consistent counterplay. Again Aegislash is not a real check, not unless you burn the Z-Move on Crown early on in the setup phase. Even Sword Dance sets can leave the interaction with massive damage taken as the Stored Power boosts rack up quick if not using the Bulky King Shield SD sets. Celesteela has been declared by some to be a check to Iron Crown. I do not like it because, similar to Aegislash, it will take massive damage by Stored Power. But unlike Aegislash, Celesteela has very few if not zero offensive countermeasures to deter the boosts scaling up. Potential checks have to rely mainly on phazing Iron Crown or it will be taking half the team with it on the way out if it didn't sweep the game on the spot. The fact that phazing is even relevant again is appalling, maybe stuff like Dragon Tail Hydrapple, Goodra-Hisui and Whirlwind Hippowdon are better but they frankly are less great than if they had ran their more impactful sets such as with Nasty Plot or Toxic regarding Hydrapple and Hippowdon or just had they ran a different mon altogether in Goodra-Hisui's case. On a similar note, Thunder Wave based checks such as Slowbro and Slowking have also been forced onto teams because of Iron Crown, often dropping Slack Off or Teleport which makes a balance's matchup against opposing Balance teams or HO significantly harder outside of the Crown punish. This is ignoring that Thunder Wave is merely an odds based stopgap. Crown can still treat the Slowtwins as setup fodder, Twave or not, and will still have similar threat to a team (except higher chance to be bailed out by luck). I really think the only "Iron Clad" check is Mega Sableye (the stall exclusive Mega Sableye) and Mystical Fire Mega Latias. Unfortunately Mystical Fire Latias gives up a lot of its more decent matchups into threats such as Tyranitar, Garganacl, Hydreigon, and Goodra-Hisui in order to keep Crown in check.


It's a little tricky to talk about the surge in HO usage without discussion how impactful Rillaboom is to the playstyle. Almost every HO mon in the metagame benefits from Rillaboom's heavenly terrain, further making toxic aspects of HO such as Iron Moth and Iron Crown even harder to check while giving Aegislash, Blacephalon, Bisharp, Ursaluna, Serperior, Victini, Galarian Moltres, and many more the chance to become a toxic presence themselves. This tier relies way too much of Ground type moves to deal with threats, so when that tendency is abused the counterplay to a lot of HO threats shrink significantly. Rillaboom itself is also incredibly threatening as a wallbreaker since it exerts both anti-offense and anti-balance properties with its SD set. SD Grassy + Knock + Superpower only has grass types to act as a check and a handful of mons that can stomach a +2 Grassy Glide. That counterplay can go out the window however when Wood Hammer is used instead of Superpower, as it brute forces through typically decent Rillaboom punishes such as Clefable and Aegislash. Rillaboom alongside Aegislash is exceptionally good at baiting in Celesteela for Iron Crown and often forces Mega Aerodactyl to commit to lopsided trades when Rillaboom is on the field, which is a boon to Iron Moth and Blacephalon.

Iron Moth and Iron Crown are pretty broken I don't think the balanced sets they add to the tier are vital enough to allow them to be considered necessary evils. In fact they blatantly hold back options in the builder (a plethora of bulky grounds and steels become significantly easier to use and playstyles get significantly more freedom to construct a consistent team) Rillaboom on the other hand is useful to deter a lot of Balances from getting too braindead while acting as a good line of defense again Sand and Mega Aerodactyl based squads. I didn't talk about Aegislash much here but I would probably vote ban if a suspect on it happened but immediate action against Crown should be taken afterwards for sure followed by Iron Moth.

---------------------

Slop 1-Line Observations:

Teching random EVs to live hits makes bulky driller sets more appealing.
SD Knock Off runs this tier possibly
Please use Z-Slowbro its superrrr good.
Encore is funny, Life Orb still enticing but making a team with it seems a little annoying. Rocky Helmet is for sure still a good alternative you don't just need it for the brokens.
Yawn Hippo = Phazer from hell.
is pretty good at holding the tier together against the Physical side of HO. Offensive sets are incredible as of late too because its not frail af.
Try Lorb Double Edge, screws with the fat grasses.
Mentioned in the main part of the post already but these are annoying as shit setup sweepers, respect them more.
Z-Conversion can actually claim kills on Broken Stack HO instead of just fumbling.
:Stall: Fishier than I would prefer it to be right now but not NDOU fishy. Moth and Crown ban would super charge this playstyle
(/) Rachi Slop Stall anyone?
He old but he still bark.
This is shit but HO is really stupid so.
^
SubTox is busted

 

[Niadev]

Tier Shifts are in (on time this time)!

Spoiler

Only one shift impacts us, but it's a big one:
OU -> UU

The last time Mega Tyranitar was here, Mega Tyranitar was indisputably the best Pokemon in the tier, and was in discussions for a suspect test before it rose, thanks to its frankly absurd bulk while still leveraging an impressive amount of raw power, all while still being Tyranitar. However, a lot has changed since then, notably the surge in popularity of fellow Rock-type mega, Mega Aerodactyl, the rise of Ting Lu to OU, as well as its base form returning to the spotlight and- look, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, the meta's entirely different, especially the hazards metagame it was so well known for dominating. It has been a year since it was last here, after all. Can Mega Tyranitar reclaim its spot as the tier king? Only time will tell.

 

[CalamityISComing]

Tier Shifts are in (on time this time)!

Spoiler

View attachment 751790

Only one shift impacts us, but it's a big one:
OU -> UU

The last time Mega Tyranitar was here, Mega Tyranitar was indisputably the best Pokemon in the tier, and was in discussions for a suspect test before it rose, thanks to its frankly absurd bulk while still leveraging an impressive amount of raw power, all while still being Tyranitar. However, a lot has changed since then, notably the surge in popularity of fellow Rock-type mega, Mega Aerodactyl, the rise of Ting Lu to OU, as well as its base form returning to the spotlight and- look, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, the meta's entirely different, especially the hazards metagame it was so well known for dominating. It has been a year since it was last here, after all. Can Mega Tyranitar reclaim its spot as the tier king? Only time will tell.

-decide to play uu again
-walk in

-mega tyranitar

 

[Niadev]

Dropping my personal thoughts on the recent radar post rq:


I'm ngl, despite once being one of Moth's biggest haters, I don't see it as the problem here. Discharge hitting MAero is annoying and does apply some pressure to the builder admittedly, but we're not exactly down bad for other answers anymore, even before Mega Tar returned to remind us that it is Him/Her. Tar answers just about every set, chip aside, and Mega Tar even moreso, Hippowdon can eat any one hit from full so long as you don't let it fish for two fiery dance boosts or it's EBall in terrain (though keeping it at full vs HO is a different matter...) and OHKOes even in GTerrain, Exca in sand RKs unless it's some AgilliMoth set that's never getting the chance to setup, Mega Venusaur is a mon that continues to exist and beat Booster from full, as is Mega Latias, etc. This isn't during its suspect where the only decent answers to Iron Moth were MTar, Ting and Slowking. Sure, most of those are a little shaky into Booster, and the megas struggle with chip and Mega Tar (which is why you're insane to run anything other than Giga on MVenu or Aura on MLatias), but Booster only has one chance, so it's not like it can wear them down like Boots can, and teams often run multiple answers accidentally anyways, especially sand. Rather, I think the complaints levied against Iron Moth is more a result of it capitalising on HO as a whole being overwhelming, letting the other more problematic mons wear down moth's answers for a lategame clean. This mon will probably go back to being fine once HO is tuned down.


This, to me, is Culprit #1 of the current HO situation. DemonCrown (ID+CM) is some nonsense, pretty much only semi-reliably answered by Aegislash. Slowking in theory should be able to TWave it and stop it, but by the time it's in position to, Crown has usually accumulated enough boosts to just tank stuff and drag half your team with it unless you get insane parahax. Plus, now Slowking is probably in Moth range (good luck regenning it all back vs HO) so you probably lose anyways. Steela and Sciz just feed it boosts so forget about it. I guess there's like Victini but who has run Boots Victini outside of building around it in a hot minute? You don't even OHKO it which is insane to me. Plus with MTar back, that just gets Pursuited to the land of Dead Weight (this just in, number of Boots Victini nicknamed 'Nero' skyrockets) in other MUs without careful play, so expect the number of people running boots to fall even more. Z-Cele is another HO mon, so I guess you can win the HO mirror now? Either way, Crown is just kind of going wild rn and I'd say this and Golt need to go.


Struggles with Ttar but that's literally it, Golt shreds most of the rest of the meta, and given most of HO rn weakens MTar, it won't have much trouble getting it in range for a lategame Agilli clean, or at worst contributing for a Moth clean. This is probably Culprit #2, and the one that contributes the least to the meta at large. Ie. if this thing goes, nobody but HO will miss it. Relying on Hurri sucks though.


Still broken, just less of a concern compared to HO in general rn, and I don't think it's a leading cause for its dominance either. Not much else has changed since Survey though besides MTar making checking it a bit easier now that you don't have to run suboptimal natures on Tar to outspeed Jolly Aegi.


Yeah, it's pretty clear that this is the best mon in the tier right now. Its stats compared to the rest of this meta are actually nuts, being able to leverage frankly obscene bulk even uninvested with an attack that has most of Ubers prior to gen 6 shuddering. I don't think this is the most problematic mon rn, but I think based on gut instinct that this is probably going to get suspected at some point in the future, since it's clearly operating on a different power level to the rest of the meta, a la Mega Metagross when it was in OU. While MTar is nowhere near as fast (otherwise it would probably be going to Ubers itself), they're both extremely strong, extremely bulky mons with not bad speed that won't necessarily be the best mon on every team, but sweet lord do they feel like they're just on another level to the rest of the tier they're in. It's basically CB Tyranitar but if it could switch moves and just casually had Gira-A bulk (MAero stone edge only does 3% more to MTar than uninvested Gira-A lmao), which is a problem because a lot of teams' defensive answer to CB Tar is generally to exploit the fact it's choice locked. Not unstoppable, of course, grounds not called Excadrill can always eat one of any attack and take a big chunk out of its HP, as can Buzzwole, but it puts a lot of strain on stuff not running Hippowdon, Skarmory or Buzzwole. Z Keldeo too I guess, but Keldeo has never been an easy mon to fit, much less Z.


I don't think this mon is a problem at all and the abusers are to blame, plus GTerrain isn't even a core reason they're broken unlike with Lucha, more like a bonus, but I think it's worth noting how most of these mons bar Golt benefit from GTerrain in some way. EQ Exca can forget about RKing Crown unless it drops EQ for HH even if it comes in on it before it starts boosting, Iron Moth loves GTerrain EBall turning some comfortable 2HKOs vs Hippo into full on chances to OHKO, and Aegi loves free SDs vs grounds not running HH or Phazing. Food for thought.

Long and short is - ban Crown and Golt (preferably crown then Golt), Iron Moth is being framed for Crown and Golt's sins, MTar's days are probably numbered and Aegi still needs a suspect. Rilla is accidentally aiding and abetting, but is innocent.

 

[Sputnik]

Gonna drop some quick thoughts on what I believe should be priority #1 for tiering action.


Demon Crown is simply not ok in this metagame and makes HO almost too good not to run. The answers to this consist of Aegislash and a special defense mon with Twave or Phazing, none of which are particularly good right now. It can even just beat some Aegislash sets with good positioning or if the Aegislash player makes one mistake. It's also very easy to pair this with other Pokemon that Aegislash needs to come in on and is expected to handle defensively so it just gets beaten down and then loses anyway. Pair this with Serperior or Rillaboom or CM Clef or Mega Garde or any other of the many mons that we ask Aegislash to take care of and you just win even if there's an Aegislash on the other team. It's way too easy to build around and facilitate this in game and I don't believe the tier is any better off for its presence. I'd be in favor of a quickban, this meta really needs some action quickly and I think taking out the trash here would be a good place to start.