Speaking of this, what do people think of physdef hydrapple? Still has nasty plot to work around the power drop and the physdef allows it to survive even +2 play rough, and even without investment can do a solid 60%+ with draco meteor, meaning as long as its holding helmet pon will be near dead from the exchange, with hydrapple still being able to regen it off to check something else later. I've really been enjoying using the defensive core of Physdef hydrapple / Skeledirge / Metal Bird (Mostly Corv but skarm is valid if you want the role compression of spikes) since I feel like they cover so much of the metagame and complement each other perfectly without being too passive. If people are interested I could make a longer post about this core and what I like to pair alongside them.
-
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I fucking love Hydrapple and I feel like its seriously so good. Not only does it dunk on Oger (even Play Rough cannot do a OHK, especially if you're full) but helmet on top of it is great for ensure it eats SOME chip. I think its seriously underrated, long as you have a good core that can handle Kyu (unless you tera ice ofc) then it slaps
pretty on a whim but i think hydrapple is great at what it does, but the main trouble comes from trying to overextend its role in practice (will cover this in a bit.)
physdef w/ boots is the elite set for ou hydrapple imo. great defensive typing, easy setup with regen is extremely unique in the tier and the closest things that come to mind are np torn/fat np ghold, but both have their differences (not to say theyre worse.) boots is just common sense over something like rocky helmet (rh) since regen w/o removal that ignores hazards is pretty premier. think of things like alo/torn balance, and so on. you might see rh mola on stall since removal is easier (unless bootspam stall, in which case obvs boots) and torn can be av but is imo more common to see boots. ignoring hazards is just too great of a boon when youre getting hp by doing smthn as naturally as pivoting in (regen.)
this is further valididated since imo the type of teams you see hydrapple on generally have ample knock off switch-ins. not going to break down every example, but definitely a mon primarily seen on balance like 99%+ of the time. hydrapple appreciates having a defensive backbone where it isn't trying to do too much. its typing lends it a rlly unique form of countering shit (grounds no ice coverage/zama no ice/ogerpon primarily.) conceptually, this causes your opponent to be able to check it offensively w/ a narrower selection of mons on their team. this has 2 parts worth delving into: 1) you can exhaust your tera reasonably well to instantly nuke something that your opponent has to threaten this. for example, pult is their best answer to check you offensively and suddenly you chew valiant/pult with psn/fairy tera and ohko it. now ur oppos team both has a big hole but further you still have a very potent defensive setup mon. neatly ties into 2) which is it's hard to check this mon from a purely defensive mindset because of how fat this mon is+access to np. and this doesn't become an alleviated issue once tera is spent on it. so it can get cramped pretty quickly vs this mon in certain MUs.
the limitations (partially alluded to in my 1st sentence) also exist. i can think of three immediate issues, whether in-play or as consistent concepts regardless of your play:
1) it's pretty easy imo to overextend hydrapple defensively and send it in to tank things because hey, fat mon with regen. i think if this is done too recklessly, you lose what makes it great. you might be lower and lower on hp, or lose your hdb into hazards, and suddenly you don't have a means to do what it does best. get setup off while hitting in later turns. you're very slow, so maybe you're suddenly in a 2hko range from stuff with a few sloppy plays and suddenly can't use this mon to its fullest capability, etc.
2) i think a lot of its viability comes from its ability to setup on mons while being fat. i think vs ho this can be harder to really feel in full effect. vs stall they also might have more unique defensive options for it since just...6 fat fellas. i think vs bo/balance is where it shines best as a tool, and it can be a pretty limited bring into a broad range of MUs. not only because of this but also:
3) good coverage moves are very common. it's easy to either make mistakes or be thrown into impossible spots for your defensive backbone and tera can feel almost forced on hydrapple to get any progress out of it. again, being slow af only exacerbates this issue.
did not proofread this so apologies if smthn amiss...
Hi, do you think this set has some potential? The idea is to use Galarian Moltres as a pivot that can be useful defensively and provide speed control with Tailwind.
Moltres-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Berserk
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
- Air Slash
- Fiery Wrath
- Tailwind
- U-turn
Moltres-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Berserk
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 156 HP / 252 SpA / 100 Spe
Modest Nature
- Air Slash
- Fiery Wrath
- Tailwind
- U-turn
Probably not as it really does not check much besides some Gholdengo or special Pult 1-2x over. I would personally reserve it just for the traditional, offensive sweeping/breaking sets given the lack of recovery and defensive gap-filling that a set like this struggles with.
If you do go this route, consider Boots over Lefties probably.
Make that post if you have the motivation to do so.
As for Hydrapple, it's PhysDef set is one of the weirdest yet most practical sets i've seen. At least for gen 9. It's not like Hydrapple at 120 SpA is left wanting for power too much, so the defensive investment is very nice to help it on defense. It's got that SD Gliscor thing where it's a breaker with longevity, which makes using it a bit more forgiving. It also farms the daylights out of standard Ting-Lu variants, which is about as nice as it sounds. Being on the more consistent side in terms of checking Wellspring is huge as well, especially with Tangrowth and Ferrothorn dexited (a shame if you ask me).
I always see people hype up breakers like Specs Kyurem & Volcanion (for good reaaon tbh), but Hydrapple's ability to enter the field repeatedly makes it about as good as them. It's just not as flashy, y'know?
Last edited:
The SV OU tiering council is discussing Tera Blast in SV OU -- https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/tera-blast-in-sv-ou.3768288/
---
The SV OU tiering council recently discussed Tera Blast's place in our flagship metagame. While we are not close to a suspect, three members of the council -- leng loi, ausma, and TPP -- are in favor of tiering action while some others wish to see how the informed community feels. This post will outline Tera Blast's history in tiering discussions, place in the metagame, and potential for future tiering action. The hope of this thread is for active SV OU players to comment their thoughts on the move in the metagame.
Please note that this does not mean other potential suspects or retests are being ignored. With WCoP coming to a close, many internal and external discussions about our metagame will transpire.
History
As early as January of 2024, some players cited Tera Blast as a concern when sorting through qualified responses to a tiering survey. This continued as a noteworthy, but not standout, write-in mention throughout the first half of 2024.
Later in 2024, Tera Blast was formally added to a survey after getting more public discussion and having a council member, ausma, speak out in favor of tiering action. Tera Blast receiced the fourth most support in September with a 3.0 / 5 ranking from OLT qualifiers, which kept it in discussion despite not being considered for action yet. Then, it received the third most support in January of this year with a 3.07 / 5 qualified score and only 2.77 / 5 from those who were playing SPL and the fourth most support in May of this year with a 2.76 / 5 qualified score. To put it bluntly: these numbers were underwhelming, nothing with this level of support has been suspected in recent memory, and council support was always limited while survey scores have been emphasized less and less the deeper we get into the generation due to less frequent releases/change.
So what changed? Not much in my personal opinion admiteddly, but it is my job to represent the playerbase and council and I cannot deny two things:
Tera Blast in SV OU
Noteworthy Users of Tera Blast in SV OU (Pokemon that see >2% usage in SV OU 1825 stats with >10% Tera Blast usage per gen9ou 1825 stats):
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, & 
I will note that we have seen applications of Tera Blast on some Pokemon that are under 2% usage like
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, & 
and even some OU regulars use Tera Blast on more rare occasion such as 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, 
, & 
-- this is not meant to be an exhaustive list so much as a frame of reference, so naturally others can use it, too.
The most dynamic and relevant applications of Tera Blast in a tiering context tie into Pokemon with boosting and/or cleaning potential like Dragon Dance Dragonite and Dragon Dance Kyurem. People have recently been using Tera Blast Fire on Dragon Dance Dragapult, too, and Tera Blast Fairy has surfaced on Kingambit for a long time now as well. I do not know of anyone who finds Iron Moth having another coverage option or Landorus-Therian being able to Tera Blast Fly for STAB to be problematic at this stage. It is also worth noting that Dragonite, Kyurem, and Kingambit remain in discussions for general tiering action, but no suspects are imminent on any of the three.
Taking a step backwards, Tera Blast has contributed heavily towards the bans of Volcarona, Espathra, and Regieleki while also surfacing on Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, and Magearna. We are focused on Tera Blast in the current metagame and that will be the sole determinent in any tiering decisions made in the present, but this does stablish a trendline of strong boosters taking advantage of the added coverage that Tera Blast provides.
Potential for Tiering Action
While I am opposed to action on Tera Blast firsthand and we do not have a majority in favor of a ban, three council members have expressed support and multiple others are comfortable moving the discussion to a publicly visible space. I will also say that numerous people spoke out strongly against tiering action.
The basic argument for Tera Blast being problematic is that some believe it warps counterplay to an extent that the opportunity cost is more than worthwhile when employed properly. This can be displayed on some of the aforementioned boosting threats in the context of SV OU. Some connect this argument to Tera Blast's inherent variance overall and specifically on Pokemon that use the move in the information war. The basic counter-argument in favor of keeping Tera Blast is that this additional coverage provides a strong, but reasonable, boost in offensive prowess while coming at the cost of the game's most substantial resource. This can be depicted in experienced players quickly becoming aware of common Tera Blast uses and the metagame responding accordingly. I will leave the more nuanced analysis of both sides to the posters of this thread, but I will absolutely be chiming in firsthand later this week.
One important note in the discussion is the recent amendment to the Tiering Policy Framework! Please see below on how the onus to ban a non-Pokemon element, such as a move, involves evidence that is both numerous and substantial in nature. It would be paramount for any argument in favor of banning Tera Blast to focus on this portion of the framework when making their argument if they wish for it to hold weight in a serious tiering discussion. I am including this both on behalf of myself and tiering administration in an effort to be transparent on where the bar is for a potential move ban:
Conclusion
Tera Blast is a controversial move in the metagame that we have determined warrants a larger tiering discussion here. While I do not personally support tiering action, three members of the SV OU council do. While survey results have been middling, plenty has evolved on the topic and may continue to. While there are a lot of barriers to a potential ban of a move rather than Pokemon, this thread can be used for arguments pertaining to this. Please DM me with any questions!
--
Please discuss this within reason here. Thanks
---
The SV OU tiering council recently discussed Tera Blast's place in our flagship metagame. While we are not close to a suspect, three members of the council -- leng loi, ausma, and TPP -- are in favor of tiering action while some others wish to see how the informed community feels. This post will outline Tera Blast's history in tiering discussions, place in the metagame, and potential for future tiering action. The hope of this thread is for active SV OU players to comment their thoughts on the move in the metagame.
Please note that this does not mean other potential suspects or retests are being ignored. With WCoP coming to a close, many internal and external discussions about our metagame will transpire.
History
As early as January of 2024, some players cited Tera Blast as a concern when sorting through qualified responses to a tiering survey. This continued as a noteworthy, but not standout, write-in mention throughout the first half of 2024.
Later in 2024, Tera Blast was formally added to a survey after getting more public discussion and having a council member, ausma, speak out in favor of tiering action. Tera Blast receiced the fourth most support in September with a 3.0 / 5 ranking from OLT qualifiers, which kept it in discussion despite not being considered for action yet. Then, it received the third most support in January of this year with a 3.07 / 5 qualified score and only 2.77 / 5 from those who were playing SPL and the fourth most support in May of this year with a 2.76 / 5 qualified score. To put it bluntly: these numbers were underwhelming, nothing with this level of support has been suspected in recent memory, and council support was always limited while survey scores have been emphasized less and less the deeper we get into the generation due to less frequent releases/change.
So what changed? Not much in my personal opinion admiteddly, but it is my job to represent the playerbase and council and I cannot deny two things:
- Tera Blast kept surfacing in internal and external tiering discussions despite middling survey support
- The internal support for tiering action increased with leng loi and TPP joining ausma in favor
Tera Blast in SV OU
Noteworthy Users of Tera Blast in SV OU (Pokemon that see >2% usage in SV OU 1825 stats with >10% Tera Blast usage per gen9ou 1825 stats):
, , , , , , , & I will note that we have seen applications of Tera Blast on some Pokemon that are under 2% usage like
, , , , , , , , & and even some OU regulars use Tera Blast on more rare occasion such as , , , , , , & -- this is not meant to be an exhaustive list so much as a frame of reference, so naturally others can use it, too.The most dynamic and relevant applications of Tera Blast in a tiering context tie into Pokemon with boosting and/or cleaning potential like Dragon Dance Dragonite and Dragon Dance Kyurem. People have recently been using Tera Blast Fire on Dragon Dance Dragapult, too, and Tera Blast Fairy has surfaced on Kingambit for a long time now as well. I do not know of anyone who finds Iron Moth having another coverage option or Landorus-Therian being able to Tera Blast Fly for STAB to be problematic at this stage. It is also worth noting that Dragonite, Kyurem, and Kingambit remain in discussions for general tiering action, but no suspects are imminent on any of the three.
Taking a step backwards, Tera Blast has contributed heavily towards the bans of Volcarona, Espathra, and Regieleki while also surfacing on Roaring Moon, Gouging Fire, and Magearna. We are focused on Tera Blast in the current metagame and that will be the sole determinent in any tiering decisions made in the present, but this does stablish a trendline of strong boosters taking advantage of the added coverage that Tera Blast provides.
Potential for Tiering Action
While I am opposed to action on Tera Blast firsthand and we do not have a majority in favor of a ban, three council members have expressed support and multiple others are comfortable moving the discussion to a publicly visible space. I will also say that numerous people spoke out strongly against tiering action.
The basic argument for Tera Blast being problematic is that some believe it warps counterplay to an extent that the opportunity cost is more than worthwhile when employed properly. This can be displayed on some of the aforementioned boosting threats in the context of SV OU. Some connect this argument to Tera Blast's inherent variance overall and specifically on Pokemon that use the move in the information war. The basic counter-argument in favor of keeping Tera Blast is that this additional coverage provides a strong, but reasonable, boost in offensive prowess while coming at the cost of the game's most substantial resource. This can be depicted in experienced players quickly becoming aware of common Tera Blast uses and the metagame responding accordingly. I will leave the more nuanced analysis of both sides to the posters of this thread, but I will absolutely be chiming in firsthand later this week.
One important note in the discussion is the recent amendment to the Tiering Policy Framework! Please see below on how the onus to ban a non-Pokemon element, such as a move, involves evidence that is both numerous and substantial in nature. It would be paramount for any argument in favor of banning Tera Blast to focus on this portion of the framework when making their argument if they wish for it to hold weight in a serious tiering discussion. I am including this both on behalf of myself and tiering administration in an effort to be transparent on where the bar is for a potential move ban:
Conclusion
Tera Blast is a controversial move in the metagame that we have determined warrants a larger tiering discussion here. While I do not personally support tiering action, three members of the SV OU council do. While survey results have been middling, plenty has evolved on the topic and may continue to. While there are a lot of barriers to a potential ban of a move rather than Pokemon, this thread can be used for arguments pertaining to this. Please DM me with any questions!
--
Please discuss this within reason here. Thanks
As I alluded in the post above, I do not personally find Tera Blast to be banworthy in the metagame. I do think it is important to hash this out in a public capacity, however, as the council was not close to consensus; the community deserves both transparency on what we are discussing and a say in how we proceed (within reason).
To start: I can admit that a small handful of Tera Blast users have been broken and derived this from usage of Tera Blast -- you can point to Espathra, Regieleki, and Volcarona predominantly. I do not think it impacted Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire too much, nor do I think Dragonite is banworthy currently, but I recognize others feel differently.
With this said, a ban on a move has a pretty high barrier historically and this was recently litigated in the tiering framework I quoted in the OP. While I have much respect for how ausma construes it above and recognize that others may hold this stance (and this is the thread to do it if you feel strongly, of course), I find the vast majority of Tera Blast usage and interaction to be healthy. The intimate relationship consistent players of any SV metagame must have with the risks and rewards of Tera usage I view as one that promotes skill, innovation, and experience.
I recognize that when certain, explosive Pokemon have this, they can become too strong -- we have seen a slew of dynamic boosting Pokemon overpower the metagame, finding themselves quickbanned or suspect-banned. I find this approach to be the best one here given our tiering framework and the metagame at large -- ban the few Pokemon that are problematic that use Tera Blast, keep the vast majority of users in-tact. As things stand, I would not support a suspect test. I am only one person on the council though and I refuse to put my personal desires over that of the entire council or community, so threads like this are a healthy way to test the waters.
I also will note that the metagame needs some work and discussions of other topics should come after this one, especially with OLT coming up later this week and plenty of metagame evolution surely to follow suit. I have heard complaints about a handful of Pokemon and these are not being ignored, but I request those calls for action remain out of this thread for now. I expect to be increasingly active in tiering discussions as we get into August so we can find the best metagame for all of our players and I apologize for being less publicly present in June/July.
To start: I can admit that a small handful of Tera Blast users have been broken and derived this from usage of Tera Blast -- you can point to Espathra, Regieleki, and Volcarona predominantly. I do not think it impacted Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire too much, nor do I think Dragonite is banworthy currently, but I recognize others feel differently.
With this said, a ban on a move has a pretty high barrier historically and this was recently litigated in the tiering framework I quoted in the OP. While I have much respect for how ausma construes it above and recognize that others may hold this stance (and this is the thread to do it if you feel strongly, of course), I find the vast majority of Tera Blast usage and interaction to be healthy. The intimate relationship consistent players of any SV metagame must have with the risks and rewards of Tera usage I view as one that promotes skill, innovation, and experience.
I recognize that when certain, explosive Pokemon have this, they can become too strong -- we have seen a slew of dynamic boosting Pokemon overpower the metagame, finding themselves quickbanned or suspect-banned. I find this approach to be the best one here given our tiering framework and the metagame at large -- ban the few Pokemon that are problematic that use Tera Blast, keep the vast majority of users in-tact. As things stand, I would not support a suspect test. I am only one person on the council though and I refuse to put my personal desires over that of the entire council or community, so threads like this are a healthy way to test the waters.
I also will note that the metagame needs some work and discussions of other topics should come after this one, especially with OLT coming up later this week and plenty of metagame evolution surely to follow suit. I have heard complaints about a handful of Pokemon and these are not being ignored, but I request those calls for action remain out of this thread for now. I expect to be increasingly active in tiering discussions as we get into August so we can find the best metagame for all of our players and I apologize for being less publicly present in June/July.
I’ve been using Copycat Hamurott in midladder recently and I’ve been having way too much fun I can’t lie there is absolutely no feeling like stealing a roost to re-allow for sash procs on a hazard switch, getting a cheeky pivot off, or my personal favorite- stealing a sticky web completely ruining webs HO. I imagine the guy who runs into it just kinda throws his hands up like “well I guess so,” because it’s not like it’s ever going to be meta but I’m able to get pretty consistent use out of it game after game
Reposting my explanation on why it can adhere to tiering policy so it's available here as well!
--
Tiering policy prioritizes Pokemon bans over exceptional elements. As an exceptional element -- according to the new amendment to the tiering policy framework -- there are criteria that Tera Blast must adhere to as a non-Pokemon ban. These are as follows:
This post will be detailing why Tera Blast has the capacity to adhere to these criteria.
_____
I.) Inherently Broken Nature
Tera Blast has a broken nature in a way that isn't intuitive at a glance. It has a noteworthy opportunity cost in both a moveslot and reliance on a generation-defining mechanic that is often touted for its adaptable nature. It is not broken in the sense that it is extremely oppressive and blatantly too much. Instead, it is in how it has a negative, disruptive impact on game sequencing, positioning, and resource management.
Councilwoman leng loi made a fantastic post that outlines how Tera Blast accentuates and encourages more proactive use of Tera such that it has the capacity to flip matchups and force positive trades. Compounding upon her point, there are options like Ceruledge or DD Kyurem that gain the ability to secure 1v1s into checks they otherwise would not be able to because they gained a vital coverage option that they normally do not have, and then secure more reliable trades into less proficient checks. Zamazenta is the most noteworthy victim of this, being a blanket check for Pokemon like Ceruledge and Kingambit that gets pressured hard by Fairy Tera Blast unless it uses Tera itself, which may be suboptimal given the circumstances of the game. Proactive Tera usage is far more potent with high octane offensive Pokemon in solid part because of Tera Blast being able to effectively round off their coverage profile, sometimes in an unexpected fashion based on the Pokemon, their viable Tera Blast options, and how they opt to use Tera Blast. Furthermore, if a Pokemon uses Tera offensively without Tera Blast, it's to accentuate a coverage option or boost a STAB which are reasonable to expect within the confines of their movepool and can be more feasibly played around since your expectations are in line with the types the Pokemon is capable of threatening you with. With Tera Blast in the equation, scouting these interactions can, in some cases, be a coinflip, or a situation that is difficult to deduce without putting yourself at a positional disadvantage. Even if they don't have Tera Blast, you have to respect the option.
Lastly, the only context in which Tera Blast would be rendered balanced by ordinary means is by limiting this generation's mechanic due to the move's reliance on it. However, it has been decided to leave Tera alone in its entirety (see this post). Tiering Tera Blast itself is the only viable option for limiting the move and its negative interactions without far more arbitrary measures that violate tiering policy. As a bonus for the anti-Tera crowd, it is also the only way to tier Tera and potentially accentuate its positive qualities; however, Tera Blast is an independent element that can be cleanly tiered regardless.
II.) Universal Applicability Across Eligible Users
Tera Blast, notably, is a universal move for all Pokemon available in Pokemon Scarlet & Violet. This makes it harder to justify its eligibility under this criterion since theoretically any Pokemon, OU viable or not, can use Tera Blast. However I have two arguments to suggest that this is not a problem:
1: There exists precedent for banning exceptional elements that are not effective across the board in Baton Pass
Baton Pass possesses extremely wide distribution, famously known for its chains being highly adaptable. However this adaptability is not a holy arbiter as there are Pokemon with access to the move that have very little capacity to stack boosts and/or keep the chain active as a result of power level and metagame climate. Regardless, this move's core functionality is still extremely fundamental to the reason why it is definitionally broken despite having lower power users that don't mesh with the move well at all. Technically these Pokemon can continue chains even if they are poor users. I argue Tera Blast and the broken qualities that I discuss in the above criterion operate similarly regardless of viability.
2: Tera Blast's potential unpredictability and capacity for positive trades scales in less prolific users
Part of the pro-Tera Blast stance is that Tera Blast's unpredictability decreases with metagame knowledge, since Tera Blast complements multiple major Pokemon's offensive profiles very well. Most famously, Dragonite and Kingambit are prolific users with Tera Blast types that people are starting to be more prepared against. I would argue there are still multiple layers of disruptive positional pressure because several major Pokemon have multiple viable Tera Blast types (such as Kyurem and the aforementioned Dragonite) in addition to non-Tera Blast using sets. This situation worsens as niche options are further teched into, which has been happening more as of late. Tera Blast's utility can go very deep, with niche options like AV Tera Fighting Toxapex or Pokemon not even ranked on the VR like Frosmoth that hold a microscopic niche sparsely used by some high level players. While on paper it seems good that Pokemon that are often overshadowed can possess a stronger offensive profile, unpredictability is bolstered considerably among these more niche Pokemon and Tera Blast type options that can more effectively capitalize on surprise factor to force positive exchanges. Tera Blast utilized by less viable Pokemon, even those that are outright bad, still have the aforementioned applicable unhealthy qualities, and in some cases can worsen the unhealthy qualities of the move by limiting metagame knowledge and experience as a means to play around the move.
III.) No Plausible Scenario for Balance
This criterion mostly brings to light a couple of the points I mentioned previously. Tera is not able to be tiered upon to limit Tera Blast on the users who have access to it. Additionally, less viable Pokemon can still make use of the move for the qualities that make it disruptive and unhealthy regardless of opportunity cost, in addition to even worsening one of the unhealthy tenants.
If there is any clarity anybody would like to have on any of these points, please let me know! Thank you.
--
Tiering policy prioritizes Pokemon bans over exceptional elements. As an exceptional element -- according to the new amendment to the tiering policy framework -- there are criteria that Tera Blast must adhere to as a non-Pokemon ban. These are as follows:
Tiering Policy said:
This post will be detailing why Tera Blast has the capacity to adhere to these criteria.
_____
I.) Inherently Broken Nature
Tera Blast has a broken nature in a way that isn't intuitive at a glance. It has a noteworthy opportunity cost in both a moveslot and reliance on a generation-defining mechanic that is often touted for its adaptable nature. It is not broken in the sense that it is extremely oppressive and blatantly too much. Instead, it is in how it has a negative, disruptive impact on game sequencing, positioning, and resource management.
Councilwoman leng loi made a fantastic post that outlines how Tera Blast accentuates and encourages more proactive use of Tera such that it has the capacity to flip matchups and force positive trades. Compounding upon her point, there are options like Ceruledge or DD Kyurem that gain the ability to secure 1v1s into checks they otherwise would not be able to because they gained a vital coverage option that they normally do not have, and then secure more reliable trades into less proficient checks. Zamazenta is the most noteworthy victim of this, being a blanket check for Pokemon like Ceruledge and Kingambit that gets pressured hard by Fairy Tera Blast unless it uses Tera itself, which may be suboptimal given the circumstances of the game. Proactive Tera usage is far more potent with high octane offensive Pokemon in solid part because of Tera Blast being able to effectively round off their coverage profile, sometimes in an unexpected fashion based on the Pokemon, their viable Tera Blast options, and how they opt to use Tera Blast. Furthermore, if a Pokemon uses Tera offensively without Tera Blast, it's to accentuate a coverage option or boost a STAB which are reasonable to expect within the confines of their movepool and can be more feasibly played around since your expectations are in line with the types the Pokemon is capable of threatening you with. With Tera Blast in the equation, scouting these interactions can, in some cases, be a coinflip, or a situation that is difficult to deduce without putting yourself at a positional disadvantage. Even if they don't have Tera Blast, you have to respect the option.
Lastly, the only context in which Tera Blast would be rendered balanced by ordinary means is by limiting this generation's mechanic due to the move's reliance on it. However, it has been decided to leave Tera alone in its entirety (see this post). Tiering Tera Blast itself is the only viable option for limiting the move and its negative interactions without far more arbitrary measures that violate tiering policy. As a bonus for the anti-Tera crowd, it is also the only way to tier Tera and potentially accentuate its positive qualities; however, Tera Blast is an independent element that can be cleanly tiered regardless.
II.) Universal Applicability Across Eligible Users
Tera Blast, notably, is a universal move for all Pokemon available in Pokemon Scarlet & Violet. This makes it harder to justify its eligibility under this criterion since theoretically any Pokemon, OU viable or not, can use Tera Blast. However I have two arguments to suggest that this is not a problem:
1: There exists precedent for banning exceptional elements that are not effective across the board in Baton Pass
Baton Pass possesses extremely wide distribution, famously known for its chains being highly adaptable. However this adaptability is not a holy arbiter as there are Pokemon with access to the move that have very little capacity to stack boosts and/or keep the chain active as a result of power level and metagame climate. Regardless, this move's core functionality is still extremely fundamental to the reason why it is definitionally broken despite having lower power users that don't mesh with the move well at all. Technically these Pokemon can continue chains even if they are poor users. I argue Tera Blast and the broken qualities that I discuss in the above criterion operate similarly regardless of viability.
2: Tera Blast's potential unpredictability and capacity for positive trades scales in less prolific users
Part of the pro-Tera Blast stance is that Tera Blast's unpredictability decreases with metagame knowledge, since Tera Blast complements multiple major Pokemon's offensive profiles very well. Most famously, Dragonite and Kingambit are prolific users with Tera Blast types that people are starting to be more prepared against. I would argue there are still multiple layers of disruptive positional pressure because several major Pokemon have multiple viable Tera Blast types (such as Kyurem and the aforementioned Dragonite) in addition to non-Tera Blast using sets. This situation worsens as niche options are further teched into, which has been happening more as of late. Tera Blast's utility can go very deep, with niche options like AV Tera Fighting Toxapex or Pokemon not even ranked on the VR like Frosmoth that hold a microscopic niche sparsely used by some high level players. While on paper it seems good that Pokemon that are often overshadowed can possess a stronger offensive profile, unpredictability is bolstered considerably among these more niche Pokemon and Tera Blast type options that can more effectively capitalize on surprise factor to force positive exchanges. Tera Blast utilized by less viable Pokemon, even those that are outright bad, still have the aforementioned applicable unhealthy qualities, and in some cases can worsen the unhealthy qualities of the move by limiting metagame knowledge and experience as a means to play around the move.
III.) No Plausible Scenario for Balance
This criterion mostly brings to light a couple of the points I mentioned previously. Tera is not able to be tiered upon to limit Tera Blast on the users who have access to it. Additionally, less viable Pokemon can still make use of the move for the qualities that make it disruptive and unhealthy regardless of opportunity cost, in addition to even worsening one of the unhealthy tenants.
If there is any clarity anybody would like to have on any of these points, please let me know! Thank you.
The course of action I'd like to see if there's any room for action, then to see TB suspected. If it's banned, then only a select slew of the threats that utilized it should be retested following. Ones like Moon, Uglier Entei, etc should stay banned but Regleki or something could be fun to mess around with.
TB has been problemtic on mons like Gambit, etc but I feel like thats more inherent to the fact Gambit itself is questionably balanced. Anytime I see lower tier mons or similar using it I find it far less oppressive and more fun. Can it be cheesy? sure, but I think already borderline mons being pushed further due to getting an extra Stab is the real problem. Even using just Gambit as an example, what do you even do against Fairy/Dark/Steel? There is counterplay, but it simply makes a ridiculous mon even more so.
I do not think Dnite is busted but i can see why its sheer variety is frustrating for others no doubt to TB giving it STAB or coverage it never had before though.
TB has been problemtic on mons like Gambit, etc but I feel like thats more inherent to the fact Gambit itself is questionably balanced. Anytime I see lower tier mons or similar using it I find it far less oppressive and more fun. Can it be cheesy? sure, but I think already borderline mons being pushed further due to getting an extra Stab is the real problem. Even using just Gambit as an example, what do you even do against Fairy/Dark/Steel? There is counterplay, but it simply makes a ridiculous mon even more so.
I do not think Dnite is busted but i can see why its sheer variety is frustrating for others no doubt to TB giving it STAB or coverage it never had before though.
As a reminder, Tera itself is not going to be suspected or compromised upon. Please read this post for more information.
I think generally the community agree on what steps would come after a hypothetical tera blast ban- there's some slight disagreement but I think discussing it at this point only muddies the waters and in fact those later decisions may create so much anxiety that it turns people away from the idea of the ban at all despite its merits- which are obvious.
I'll do my best to not consume this discussion. I've probably posted more about it than anyone in this thread. I'm happy to see it formally discussed. I will allow more eloquent posters to make the case. But for anyone that see's this as a positive thing I do recommend discussing tera blast for the cheese that it is rather than the affected four.
Thank you council.
I'll do my best to not consume this discussion. I've probably posted more about it than anyone in this thread. I'm happy to see it formally discussed. I will allow more eloquent posters to make the case. But for anyone that see's this as a positive thing I do recommend discussing tera blast for the cheese that it is rather than the affected four.
Thank you council.
I dont think this tera blast talk is it. Look at the prominent pokemon that use the move, as indicated from the usage stats. (Thanks finchinator for providing.) Are these pokemon meaningfully stronger b/c of tera blast specifically? Does the use of tera blast make them unreasonably dominant or hard to handle (more than they would be without it, or as compared to a STAB tera boost)?
Uses tera stellar as scarf cleaner and specs breaker on webs. This is not an overwhelming metagame presence, but it does feel very bad to lose to because of how hard it punishes a bad team build that can't revenge w/ speed or priority. This is a unique case along w/ serperior because of how stellar breaks the type chart; I think it's nice to have a punish to fat tera walls like 
.
It uses tera blast fairy to beat zama. It is forgoing sneak/CC/poltergeist or other utility to do this. Is this really an issue? The more effective sets go fat tera bug. You can use Destiny Bond to remove a physical wall to the same effect.
Tera blast sets are not a particularly relevant metagame feature and with scarf have a similar role to enamorus.
A reason to keep tera blast if you ask me. 4-attack butter knife for HO that has been a tier staple since it has been here.
DD tera blast is pretty rare. Band tera ghost is strong. Similar to landorus-t. Dragapult hitting with a ghost move is not surprising.
// These ones are where you can make a real case of something stupid going on, but I believe it's more intrinsic to the pokemon and tera as a mechanic than the move. Fat pokemon changes its defensive type to get a free turn of setup and then sweeps. That's been the MO of this generation and that's what all of these do. Tera blast lets them choose the vector for that sweep, but it's not the reason for it. Tera ground dragonite can hose teams just as much as tera flying.
imo a lot of this points to
and being hugely centralizing pokemon. All these things are physical sweepers that run tera ghost/fairy/flying to beat them. Do we want doggo to 6-0 HO by default, or otherwise steer it to special spam? I do not. I think there is far more diversity created by keeping this move around. (Unrelated, but -- free 
!)
I respect, but just dont agree with the notion of "inherent brokenness" that ausma raises above. It is not some objective measure that TB is "a negative, disruptive impact on game sequencing, positioning, and resource management." In fact, I prefer the proactive avenues for disruption that it provides. These come with very direct costs, commitments, and tradeoffs for the user at the teambuilding and battle stages.
If the consensus preference is/was for a more reactive and defensive metagame, then I would say the ship for acting on that sailed when it was decided to keep tera as a permanent fixture.
Beyond all the gameplay considerations, I also think the move Tera blast is pretty hard to extricate from the mechanic of tera as a whole, so "balancing" via the move alone treads on the fuzzy line of arbitrary nerf to me.
Uses tera stellar as scarf cleaner and specs breaker on webs. This is not an overwhelming metagame presence, but it does feel very bad to lose to because of how hard it punishes a bad team build that can't revenge w/ speed or priority. This is a unique case along w/ serperior because of how stellar breaks the type chart; I think it's nice to have a punish to fat tera walls like . It uses tera blast fairy to beat zama. It is forgoing sneak/CC/poltergeist or other utility to do this. Is this really an issue? The more effective sets go fat tera bug. You can use Destiny Bond to remove a physical wall to the same effect. Tera blast sets are not a particularly relevant metagame feature and with scarf have a similar role to enamorus. A reason to keep tera blast if you ask me. 4-attack butter knife for HO that has been a tier staple since it has been here. DD tera blast is pretty rare. Band tera ghost is strong. Similar to landorus-t. Dragapult hitting with a ghost move is not surprising.// These ones are where you can make a real case of something stupid going on, but I believe it's more intrinsic to the pokemon and tera as a mechanic than the move. Fat pokemon changes its defensive type to get a free turn of setup and then sweeps. That's been the MO of this generation and that's what all of these do. Tera blast lets them choose the vector for that sweep, but it's not the reason for it. Tera ground dragonite can hose teams just as much as tera flying.imo a lot of this points to
and being hugely centralizing pokemon. All these things are physical sweepers that run tera ghost/fairy/flying to beat them. Do we want doggo to 6-0 HO by default, or otherwise steer it to special spam? I do not. I think there is far more diversity created by keeping this move around. (Unrelated, but -- free !)I respect, but just dont agree with the notion of "inherent brokenness" that ausma raises above. It is not some objective measure that TB is "a negative, disruptive impact on game sequencing, positioning, and resource management." In fact, I prefer the proactive avenues for disruption that it provides. These come with very direct costs, commitments, and tradeoffs for the user at the teambuilding and battle stages.
If the consensus preference is/was for a more reactive and defensive metagame, then I would say the ship for acting on that sailed when it was decided to keep tera as a permanent fixture.
Beyond all the gameplay considerations, I also think the move Tera blast is pretty hard to extricate from the mechanic of tera as a whole, so "balancing" via the move alone treads on the fuzzy line of arbitrary nerf to me.
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I read the Tera Blast thread and then I found that the same post are here thx Finch and ausma x)
Besides that, the "no possible scenario of balance" part is where I disagree. While Kyurem -for example- can use Tera Blast as a surprise to flip the match it has only 3 moves until it teras. I think in the current meta where Tera shines the most is in teams that use it with flexibility and not a single Tera Blast user that is going to become your Tera user 70% of the time. For that, Tera Blast is actually something that is balanced as how it works: if you don't Tera your Tera Blast user you are using a pokemon with only 3 moves, and if you Tera your Tera Blast user for the need to make progress and it's too soon you lose momentum, and probably Tera Blast even becomes a disadvantage when it is predictable.
Therefore, there are pokemon that are better by abusing Tera Blast as listed in previous posts and some of them can be argued to be banned (Kyurem, Dragonite, Gambit). But on the other side, there are other mons that you might consider to be Tera Blast users where the disadvantages weight too much for them to be considered in the teambuilding (so Tera Blast is not as flexible, unpredictable and free to use without consequences as it might seem at the start). Also, less common mons can abuse Tera Blast as they are "lures" by themselves as their presence in the match is a matter of how many things my rival knows about my set, rather than Tera Blast being broken and working most of the time to be suspected.
idk if there are parts of the post that I didn't write properly, English is my second language so maybe there are some mistakes, but hopefully I made my point clear :x
Besides that, the "no possible scenario of balance" part is where I disagree. While Kyurem -for example- can use Tera Blast as a surprise to flip the match it has only 3 moves until it teras. I think in the current meta where Tera shines the most is in teams that use it with flexibility and not a single Tera Blast user that is going to become your Tera user 70% of the time. For that, Tera Blast is actually something that is balanced as how it works: if you don't Tera your Tera Blast user you are using a pokemon with only 3 moves, and if you Tera your Tera Blast user for the need to make progress and it's too soon you lose momentum, and probably Tera Blast even becomes a disadvantage when it is predictable.
Therefore, there are pokemon that are better by abusing Tera Blast as listed in previous posts and some of them can be argued to be banned (Kyurem, Dragonite, Gambit). But on the other side, there are other mons that you might consider to be Tera Blast users where the disadvantages weight too much for them to be considered in the teambuilding (so Tera Blast is not as flexible, unpredictable and free to use without consequences as it might seem at the start). Also, less common mons can abuse Tera Blast as they are "lures" by themselves as their presence in the match is a matter of how many things my rival knows about my set, rather than Tera Blast being broken and working most of the time to be suspected.
idk if there are parts of the post that I didn't write properly, English is my second language so maybe there are some mistakes, but hopefully I made my point clear :x
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I feel bad being one of the first people to post on this since I view myself as not that well versed in the metagame with a mid elo in OU but I would like to share my opinion. Feel free to take it with a grain of salt as I'm in and out of OU.
Honestly, I think it might make more sense to outright ban tera if you're going to ban tera blast. From a fun perspective, I think Tera Blast adds a lot to the metagame in providing access to exceptional coverage for lower tier offensive pokemon. Many low tier pokemon like using Tera Blast but do not enjoy changing types to suit. Mons that tera fire to beat steels often cant really afford to run boots and are now rocks weak. Its cool to run a mon that can pop off with increased coverage, and even a meta pokemon opting into teraing to tera blast some weird fringe answer can be hype if its unexpected (and the expected ones are easy to play around).
From a comp perspective, Tera Blast can be concerning but Tera as a whole is also concerning. What does banning just tera blast do? Still setup mons will defensively tera and setup to sweep, which is much more boring of a tera choice and about as scary. There's a few pokemon that are more answerable without TB, but like some have said theyre suspect worthy on their own imo. I'm not arguing its 100% not broken but to me its more of a Tera issue than a Tera Blast issue. End of the day even using Tera Blast requires you to commit a tera, which is still a lot to ask.
On the idea that there can be no tera compromises or suspects, I don't think its worth removing this element. Very casually speaking, this is my favorite part of tera. Would be sad to see it go.
TLDR: I'm still seething hidden power is gone please don't take this from me too.
Honestly, I think it might make more sense to outright ban tera if you're going to ban tera blast. From a fun perspective, I think Tera Blast adds a lot to the metagame in providing access to exceptional coverage for lower tier offensive pokemon. Many low tier pokemon like using Tera Blast but do not enjoy changing types to suit. Mons that tera fire to beat steels often cant really afford to run boots and are now rocks weak. Its cool to run a mon that can pop off with increased coverage, and even a meta pokemon opting into teraing to tera blast some weird fringe answer can be hype if its unexpected (and the expected ones are easy to play around).
From a comp perspective, Tera Blast can be concerning but Tera as a whole is also concerning. What does banning just tera blast do? Still setup mons will defensively tera and setup to sweep, which is much more boring of a tera choice and about as scary. There's a few pokemon that are more answerable without TB, but like some have said theyre suspect worthy on their own imo. I'm not arguing its 100% not broken but to me its more of a Tera issue than a Tera Blast issue. End of the day even using Tera Blast requires you to commit a tera, which is still a lot to ask.
On the idea that there can be no tera compromises or suspects, I don't think its worth removing this element. Very casually speaking, this is my favorite part of tera. Would be sad to see it go.
TLDR: I'm still seething hidden power is gone please don't take this from me too.
ok im gonna have a very nice rant about TB
TB is stupid. No way around it. gives you coverage that stuff shouldnt inherently get. there's not exactly the highest investment to having a tera hog, given that lets be real, you were gonna tera that volc or dnite or moon or whatever anyways. It's a fundamentally bullshit move.
It's absolutely broke a ton of stuff already like all the volcaronas or regielekis or moons or gougs(yes that guy used tb fairy as well). There's been multiple examples of this which ppl seem to gloss over "zama and ting lu too fat so we need TB". theyre not. no zama is getting past an HO unless you play like caca. it disrupts the checks and (shaky) balance of the meta into MU fishing when i can just click 2 buttons and get past a check when i shouldn't have.
for example, we have a dnite that cheesed its way to victory by tera ghosting and using encore and using tb ghost, when it should have lost the 3v1. if it didnt have tb ghost, the ghold would def wall you, but with it? oldspicemike lost in a 3v1
This is smth that only the super HO minded ppl actually like, which by all accounts, is not what the meta is rn. Dnite and Kyu get actually nerfs without directly banning them, theres less MU fishing cheese, and theres checks that are actual checks to stuff. you shouldnt have to keep an stupid mechanic around just so mons can get past their checks, that's not fun or balanced in any way. zama and ting aren't ruining the meta btw idk what ppl are thinking.
BAN TERA BLAST
TB is stupid. No way around it. gives you coverage that stuff shouldnt inherently get. there's not exactly the highest investment to having a tera hog, given that lets be real, you were gonna tera that volc or dnite or moon or whatever anyways. It's a fundamentally bullshit move.
It's absolutely broke a ton of stuff already like all the volcaronas or regielekis or moons or gougs(yes that guy used tb fairy as well). There's been multiple examples of this which ppl seem to gloss over "zama and ting lu too fat so we need TB". theyre not. no zama is getting past an HO unless you play like caca. it disrupts the checks and (shaky) balance of the meta into MU fishing when i can just click 2 buttons and get past a check when i shouldn't have.
for example, we have a dnite that cheesed its way to victory by tera ghosting and using encore and using tb ghost, when it should have lost the 3v1. if it didnt have tb ghost, the ghold would def wall you, but with it? oldspicemike lost in a 3v1
This is smth that only the super HO minded ppl actually like, which by all accounts, is not what the meta is rn. Dnite and Kyu get actually nerfs without directly banning them, theres less MU fishing cheese, and theres checks that are actual checks to stuff. you shouldnt have to keep an stupid mechanic around just so mons can get past their checks, that's not fun or balanced in any way. zama and ting aren't ruining the meta btw idk what ppl are thinking.
BAN TERA BLAST
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You're using words like "fundamentally" while simultaneously imposing subjective value judgements over what "should" beat what. The reality of this generation is that Dragonite does beat a whole lot of pokemon, independent of whatever arbitrary distinctions you want to draw around what it ought to. As far as sweepers go, there is nothing in OU that matches its combination of stats, moves, ability, capacity to leverage tera, tera blast, and base typing. idk if you watched the replay you referenced, but dragonite got TWO free turns with tera and encore before it clicked an attacking move. Do a dex-search for "dragon dance and encore" and lmk how many other pokemon can do this. These parameters are a characteristic of the generation. It's totally fine to have a preference, but to not acknowledge these factors and paint differing viewpoints as "stupid", "cheese", and "MU fishing" is just plain arrogance. I, for one, think there is some elegance in the subversion of historical play- and teambuilding patterns. This is richness that tera blast, and to a much larger extent tera, affords!
Here is the year-over-year usage data:
2025
2024
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Great Tusk | 30.51588% | 552915 | 27.383% | 430139 | 26.925% |
| 2 | Zamazenta | 27.33294% | 235976 | 11.687% | 173051 | 10.832% |
| 3 | Gholdengo | 26.73393% | 322532 | 15.973% | 248841 | 15.577% |
| 4 | Dragonite | 24.51456% | 300342 | 14.874% | 218425 | 13.673% |
| 5 | Kingambit | 23.29219% | 369080 | 18.279% | 251370 | 15.735% |
| 6 | Iron Valiant | 20.03822% | 280058 | 13.870% | 203828 | 12.759% |
| 7 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 19.51581% | 272565 | 13.499% | 219804 | 13.759% |
| 8 | Ting-Lu | 18.89838% | 184009 | 9.113% | 158933 | 9.949% |
| 9 | Kyurem | 17.53310% | 194113 | 9.613% | 154206 | 9.653% |
| 10 | Slowking-Galar | 16.67393% | 251050 | 12.433% | 211595 | 13.245% |
Code:
| Rank | Pokemon | Usage % | Raw | % | Real | % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
| 1 | Kingambit | 31.65472% | 435097 | 21.054% | 293021 | 18.130% |
| 2 | Zamazenta | 26.95492% | 279005 | 13.501% | 203941 | 12.618% |
| 3 | Great Tusk | 23.63599% | 488452 | 23.635% | 380450 | 23.539% |
| 4 | Slowking-Galar | 20.73111% | 295875 | 14.317% | 247721 | 15.327% |
| 5 | Landorus-Therian | 20.02228% | 247315 | 11.967% | 219997 | 13.612% |
| 6 | Gholdengo | 19.98909% | 357180 | 17.283% | 271525 | 16.800% |
| 7 | Raging Bolt | 19.92843% | 221472 | 10.717% | 166439 | 10.298% |
| 8 | Iron Valiant | 17.46413% | 293577 | 14.206% | 209830 | 12.983% |
| 9 | Samurott-Hisui | 17.04148% | 145450 | 7.038% | 127469 | 7.887% |
| 10 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 16.48326% | 237706 | 11.502% | 185924 | 11.503% |2025
2024
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Zamazenta-* | 195 | 34.57% | 50.26% |
| 2 | Gholdengo | 181 | 32.09% | 45.30% |
| 3 | Ogerpon-Wellspring | 167 | 29.61% | 50.30% |
| 4 | Ting-Lu | 166 | 29.43% | 53.01% |
| 5 | Great Tusk | 165 | 29.26% | 52.73% |
| 6 | Dragonite | 151 | 26.77% | 49.67% |
| 7 | Kingambit | 110 | 19.50% | 52.73% |
| 8 | Iron Valiant | 105 | 18.62% | 42.86% |
| 9 | Kyurem | 103 | 18.26% | 49.51% |
| 10 | Darkrai | 94 | 16.67% | 43.62% |
Code:
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Gholdengo | 181 | 32.55% | 54.70% |
| 2 | Kingambit | 164 | 29.50% | 49.39% |
| 3 | Zamazenta-* | 163 | 29.32% | 48.47% |
| 4 | Landorus-Therian | 155 | 27.88% | 53.55% |
| 5 | Great Tusk | 154 | 27.70% | 50.00% |
| 6 | Darkrai | 136 | 24.46% | 53.68% |
| 7 | Dragonite | 130 | 23.38% | 58.46% |
| 8 | Slowking-Galar | 115 | 20.68% | 43.48% |
| 9 | Iron Valiant | 106 | 19.06% | 50.94% |
| 10 | Raging Bolt | 104 | 18.71% | 50.96% |Interpret it how you please, but I see a decline in booster energy pokemon, a THREEFOLD increase in ting lu, and a whole bunch of bulky offense staples. I'll note that at the 1500 glicko usage level, Zamazenta and ting-lu see HALF the play as at 1825.
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imo a lot of this points to
These two are centralizing because they're extremely splashable and reliable and offer stability for the many structures they fit on. Unless you want to argue they're at all problematic and we somehow need TB to handle them which I'd find ridiculous, no offense.
Mcribs didn't call differening viewpoints stupid cheese or MU fishing, they referred to TB as such. And whether or not you consider it stupid is one thing, but it's hard to argue that TB is not partially cheese due to its "handpick some counterplay" and volatile nature. The move is also quite MU fishy because in some games you may face teams that DON'T require use of TB or the Tera which leaves you with a dead slot. There's no real elegance to it at all.
You might argue that this proves the move is healthy because of this, but I'd argue that TB is an issue not from brokenness or how it pushes pokemon over the edge, but from the sheer variance it can encourage from the possibilities it enables potentially. This can result in more MU problems for the user and potential opponents. Again if the user faces a match up where it isn't useful, dead slot and that can hamper that mon's usefulness. On the other hand, an opponent can prep for your mon with perfectly reasonable team building and ordinarily they'd have a good match up, until TB is whipped out and circumvents their counterplay which puts them way behind, especially because that mon that got sniped by TB was being used for more than just one thing.
This is a symptom of a larger problem that I have with SV OU, and that's that while there aren't inherently a ton of problematic pokemon (Kyurem, Kingambit and Dragonite are the ones people talk about), there is a very large list of viable and powerful pokemon that demand attention in the builder to a degree, and with how many there are, it's important to be able to compress roles more than in previous generations. That's why pokemon such as Zamazenta and Ting-Lu are so used and so valued in this metagame. This need for role compression and the fact there are so many threats to account for makes it easier to exploit said mons, as seen in the use of Tera Ghost being the best and most common Tera by far to stuff Zama and even turn it into set up fodder. TB exacerbates this problem by giving access coverage to Pokemon that were inherently not intended to have certain coverage for the sake of balance, much like some pokemon aren't supposed to be able to boost certain stats, and it creates awkward situations where these glue mons have a harder time striking back or responding while the opponent boosts up.
Pokemon that use TB and are truly problematic are few (again Dragonite, Kyurem and Kingambit though I'd debate the chess piece), but it does create annoying situations where perfectly reasonable match ups on the surface are turned on their heads and push opponent's on an awkward back foot that's tougher to work around from due to your original counterplay being circumvented and you might not be able to get back without trading more resources just to remove the TB user, and you'd still be disadvantaged afterwards in terms of resources, usually. I don't find this mechanic to be a positive force in the tier and I also don't at all agree with the notion from some people I've seen, that TB is as integral to Tera as Tera is to it. And I think we'd be much better off without this to help cut down on volatility and variance, of which the latter will still very much be common due to Tera as a whole.
I would like to take this opportunity to post my feelings on the matter, as a 1700s ladder scrub who has more fun building teams than battling.
Right off the bat, I will say I'm currently unsure on whether or not tera blast is inherently broken (very conductive to an insightful post I know). One thing I feel quite certain about though, and it is a sort of premptive counterargument for the anti-ban crowd rather than an argument for banning tera blast itself, is that I have not felt any positive impact of tera blast at all on the metagame.
'if we ban X, then Y will get out of hand'. As someone who has been lurking in the forums for the majority of the SV lifecycle, this is an argument I have seen spammed on every suspect thread. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the current tiering policy isn't 'allowed' to even make decisions based on what a future meta would look like without factor X, (even though many voters I talked to cited this as their reason for banning/not banning haha) and must instead consider the current effect of X on meta health, and whether it would be immediately healthier were X to be removed.
But even if we are considering this argument of divination, in the case of tera blast, I don't think it has legs to stand on. I am of the opinion that tera blast does not accomplish anything that teams could not otherwise accomplish. Instead it just increases the number of ways to solve the 'puzzle' of the breaking core. In other words, it increases the breadth, but not the depth of the metagame is the way I see it.
The other effect of giving offensive pieces so much breadth with tera blast, is that it creates a lot of 'hidden' cleaning sets. By this I mean that it is much harder to discern if a mon is carrying tera blast on preview than any other set, because of how much breadth this move affords the users. Even taking into account the idea of looking at the rest of the structure and trying to narrow down your options, it has not been uncommon for me to do this and notice that there are several viable sets (tera blast or otherwise) at once on a particular structure. For example, hatt lando offense might signify no boots on the dntie, but then it might be dice, spell tag, sharp beak, fairy feather, or just lefties. I realise dnite is the most extreme case current in the meta, but would also say that other prominent users have this 'preview advantage' as well to a lesser extent. Does the lessened ability to plan make tera blast broken? On this I'm hesitant to say yes right now, but I can say it is very frustrating to play against factors that you feel were unknowable.
On skill expression (my least favourite term to use) I have also been changing my mind recently when it comes to tera blast. Previously, I thought that if a player could build a team where one of the mons had an otherwise 'dead slot' and still find success with it, then that was the mark of a well-built team. Recently however, I have instead begun to look at it from the perspective of 'this move is so valuable that it's worth gimping yourself in matchups where you don't hit, because in the ones you do, it's just that dominant'.
This, to me, is conducive to a matchup fishy metagame as others before me quite rightly pointed out. This is not helped by the rising ubiquity of Lu and Zama, who are, again as pointed out above, not rising cause they are inherently broken, as was the case with things like chien pao, but rather because they are the most broad and splashable checks available in this meta, where there are so many threats that you can't afford to specify your checks on most high tempo teams, for fear of getting dunked on in other matchups.
Because of this Zama/Lu outbreak, it has not been too big of a suprise to me to experience a rise in tera blast fairy, since they are now shooting fish in a much smaller barrel. Even things like bolt are starting to run it more and forgoing dragon stab entirely, as well as an uptick in opportunistic gambits with the tera blast fairy set as well. But I will say that this has only been my subjective, limited ladder experience, and I do wonder if others higher up than me, or in tours, have been experiencing something similar, or if I've just got confirmation bias haha.
Anyway sorry for yapping so much. This is much longer than I thought it would be at first. I'm sure I'm overlooking something, so please kindly point me in the right direction if I am. Join stallcord. Long live our glorious leader, SupaGMoney
Right off the bat, I will say I'm currently unsure on whether or not tera blast is inherently broken (very conductive to an insightful post I know). One thing I feel quite certain about though, and it is a sort of premptive counterargument for the anti-ban crowd rather than an argument for banning tera blast itself, is that I have not felt any positive impact of tera blast at all on the metagame.
'if we ban X, then Y will get out of hand'. As someone who has been lurking in the forums for the majority of the SV lifecycle, this is an argument I have seen spammed on every suspect thread. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the current tiering policy isn't 'allowed' to even make decisions based on what a future meta would look like without factor X, (even though many voters I talked to cited this as their reason for banning/not banning haha) and must instead consider the current effect of X on meta health, and whether it would be immediately healthier were X to be removed.
But even if we are considering this argument of divination, in the case of tera blast, I don't think it has legs to stand on. I am of the opinion that tera blast does not accomplish anything that teams could not otherwise accomplish. Instead it just increases the number of ways to solve the 'puzzle' of the breaking core. In other words, it increases the breadth, but not the depth of the metagame is the way I see it.
The other effect of giving offensive pieces so much breadth with tera blast, is that it creates a lot of 'hidden' cleaning sets. By this I mean that it is much harder to discern if a mon is carrying tera blast on preview than any other set, because of how much breadth this move affords the users. Even taking into account the idea of looking at the rest of the structure and trying to narrow down your options, it has not been uncommon for me to do this and notice that there are several viable sets (tera blast or otherwise) at once on a particular structure. For example, hatt lando offense might signify no boots on the dntie, but then it might be dice, spell tag, sharp beak, fairy feather, or just lefties. I realise dnite is the most extreme case current in the meta, but would also say that other prominent users have this 'preview advantage' as well to a lesser extent. Does the lessened ability to plan make tera blast broken? On this I'm hesitant to say yes right now, but I can say it is very frustrating to play against factors that you feel were unknowable.
On skill expression (my least favourite term to use) I have also been changing my mind recently when it comes to tera blast. Previously, I thought that if a player could build a team where one of the mons had an otherwise 'dead slot' and still find success with it, then that was the mark of a well-built team. Recently however, I have instead begun to look at it from the perspective of 'this move is so valuable that it's worth gimping yourself in matchups where you don't hit, because in the ones you do, it's just that dominant'.
This, to me, is conducive to a matchup fishy metagame as others before me quite rightly pointed out. This is not helped by the rising ubiquity of Lu and Zama, who are, again as pointed out above, not rising cause they are inherently broken, as was the case with things like chien pao, but rather because they are the most broad and splashable checks available in this meta, where there are so many threats that you can't afford to specify your checks on most high tempo teams, for fear of getting dunked on in other matchups.
Because of this Zama/Lu outbreak, it has not been too big of a suprise to me to experience a rise in tera blast fairy, since they are now shooting fish in a much smaller barrel. Even things like bolt are starting to run it more and forgoing dragon stab entirely, as well as an uptick in opportunistic gambits with the tera blast fairy set as well. But I will say that this has only been my subjective, limited ladder experience, and I do wonder if others higher up than me, or in tours, have been experiencing something similar, or if I've just got confirmation bias haha.
Anyway sorry for yapping so much. This is much longer than I thought it would be at first. I'm sure I'm overlooking something, so please kindly point me in the right direction if I am. Join stallcord. Long live our glorious leader, SupaGMoney
I just want to point out how this argument has nothing to do directly with anything being broken or not and moreso states vague dislike of the move…in the same way you can describe Hidden Power. And that’s saying something as obviously Tera Blast is so much more disruptive and effective. This just holds no actual weight in proving something is broken whatsoever. I really think the “X is stupid” “Y is bullshit” without direct causation and trying to find sufficient metagame context as to how the move is broken (see: making a significant portion of users directly broken) is just misguided tiering logic.
Also, the replay you showed later could’ve been won by various other Encore variants and you missed a ton of game context. And claiming Moon/Gouging were banned because of Tera Blast is revisionist history. Look at the threads, look at usage stats, etc.
I dont think Tera Blast is broken. I do think Hidden Power is broken in previous Gens but that is entirely irrelevant for the discussion. The opportunity cost of running Tera Blast is high enough to compensate the benefits of it, especially if the type is some defensively suboptimal, such as Ice. I also am not sure Volcarona would be good for the meta if unbanned. Thats all I have to say on the topic. Suspecting Mons is preferable and there are more than one candidate for that.
I do think you have a very strong argument (easily the best dnb tera blast by far) but I think this is worth touching on. I don’t find tera blast and hidden power comparable at all. Hidden Power was 60 BP and considering the STAB boost, Tera blast is 120 BP, double the BP. Think about how hidden power ice only tickles a gliscor while TB ice instantly wipes it out, for example.
This is my exact point though. They are entirely separate and not comparable, but the post I quoted failed to differentiate whatsoever. Look at what he said…
this premise isn’t a direct argument for anything in tiering — it has happened before and it will happen again.
Same for here — the investment goes beyond just a moveslot for Tera Blast as you need to Tera, but the same exact logic applies. This argument holds no weight and people just liked it because it aligns with their viewpoint, not because it’s sound tiering logic.
My point is that if you want to argue for a Tera Blast ban, you must do so through the lens of it making a significant portion of users broken, not through this wishy-washy comparative speak without any actual call to action and evidence of it being broken. Good =/= broken, different =/= broken, disruptive =/= broken, etc.
And my larger argument is that it’s clear only a very small group of users have ever been problematic, so Tera Blast does not/should not qualify for a move ban given the barrier for one.