Suspect Mix and Mega Suspect #15: Dancing in the Flames (Ceruledge)

zastra

zastra

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:pmd/ceruledge:


SUSPECT REASONING

Ceruledge was recently restricted from Mix and Mega via council vote with the intention of retesting it immediately after. Now, the time has come to determine whether or not the restriction was truly justified.

Ceruledge is one of the most hotly debated threats in Mix and Mega, and it's not hard to see why. Its most common set, Lucarionite, has terrifying wallbreaking power, being capable of tearing through teams thanks to its access to Swords Dance and powerful STAB moves. Bitter Blade and Poltergeist form a nearly unresisted combo that's difficult to wall, especially after Swords Dance, and Shadow Sneak does a good job limiting potential revenge killers such as Spectrier. It's also not easy to wear it down through chip damage alone thanks to Bitter Blade's reliable recovery. Even Dark-types, with the exception of physically defensive ones like Gyaradosite Pecharunt, get 2HKOed—such as Hisuian Samurott; so, the list of Pokemon that like switching into a 110-BP STAB + Adaptability-boosted Poltergeist is quite small. Its other sets include Latiosite and Diancite—a recent development that gives Ceruledge even more flexibility and makes traditional counterplay shakier. Latiosite variants potentially turn Arceus-Ground into setup fodder, while Diancite enables it to use fast Destiny Bonds and trade with answers like Gyaradosite Pecharunt and Water-types, forcing some awkward interactions. Because of all this, many players felt Ceruledge demanded too much respect in teambuilding and in-game, forcing teams to channel too many resources into Ceruledge counterplay and limiting teambuilding flexibility.

However, Ceruledge is far from invincible. It typically needs a turn to set up to be actually scary, and because of its average bulk, it can be vulnerable during that window. Defensively, Ceruledge can be answered by Pokemon like Gyaradosite Pecharunt, Mandibuzz, and faster variants of Arceus-Water and -Ground. Pecharunt deserves a special mention as the sturdiest answer to Ceruledge available. Other defensive staples such as Defensive Garganacl and Eternatus can also soft check it at the very least. Offensively too, Ceruledge is susceptible to faster threats and priority users like Urshifu-R, Hisuian Samurott, and Aerilate variants of Dragonite. Arceus is immune to Poltergeist and generally checks it well. It's also fairly easy to pressure it with entry hazards, especially given its Stealth Rock weakness, and limit the number of safe opportunities it gets to hit the field. Many believe Ceruledge, rather than being something inherently broken, is simply a strong offensive piece in a naturally offensive metagame, something whose threatening dynamics can be managed with good positioning, plays, and teambuilding; so, keeping it restricted could also be viewed as removing a key offensive presence from the metagame.

In the end, it comes down to YOUR perspective as a player. Do you believe Ceruledge's power and the strain it puts on teambuilding makes it too much for the metagame to handle? Or do you see it as a natural offensive presence that adds depth to the tier? Vote wisely.

SUSPECT REQUIREMENTS
[NOTE: THIS RETEST WILL BE USING THE NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!]

The instructions to participate in this retest are as follows:
  • Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in SV Mix and Mega before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W-L does not count for this—the account you use must never have played Mix and Mega before the test, full stop.)
    • You can use /rank to check if your alt is allowed to get requirements. Whenever in doubt, type /rank and it will tell confirm if you are eligible or not
  • At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command
  • Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact dhelmise, Giagantic, or any other OM Staff member
  • If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or QT!
The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2850 (with a B value of 5). The deadline for getting requirements will be <t:1753673400:F>

Voting:
Once the suspect period is over, everyone who has obtained reqs will be tagged. The post will contain the link for blind voting. For now, follow the above "Suspect Requirements" subheading to ensure that you have achieved requirements and linked your account

A simple-majority of 50%+1 unrestrict votes is required to unrestrict Ceruledge in Mix and Mega!

TL;DR:
- Ceruledge is permitted on the suspect Ladder
- The COIL value is 2850
- You must ladder on a newly-created alt of any name
- You must link your suspect alt with your smogon account using /linksmogon
- The suspect test will conclude at <t:1753673400:F>
 
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I don't think unbanning this thing should ever be the right choice, Ceruledge is so stupidly restrictive that building is disgustingly limited to a tiny pool of good Pokemon, many of which lose either over time or sometimes on the spot anyway (Eternatus, Waterceus etc); not just this but Arceus formes like Waterceus currently are required to at least run 314 speed to stop +2 Ceruledge from not autowinning, and even the Arceus formes need to run really wtf spreads to just survive more consistently (but not always!) as Jolly Lucarionite Ceruledge can sometimes OHKO @ +2 from full. There are only two actual answers to Ceruledge long-term, and they are Mandibuzz and Gyaradosite Pecharunt. The issue with these two are that they are really, really passive, to the point where most Pokemon can just simply ignore or exploit them if they do enough damage per turn or are immune to Toxic, especially the ever-present Eternatus and Magearna who just use them as fodder. The tier also notably has 0 viable physically defensive Normal-types bar the incredibly niche Stall Normalceus which notably is, for a lack of better words, absolutely useless in MnM outside of answering Ceruledge (it actually does answer Ceruledge, quite surprisingly).

This doesnt even consider Diancite, the other really stupid set. Ceruledge used to be semi-answerable if you just had a fast mon, but if you tried to use something like Urshifu-R to answer Ceruledge then it could either outspeed it and remove it on the spot because its not 145 Speed or just click Destiny Bond and remove your offensive piece without doing anything. Not to mention, even though Diancite Ceruledge is about 14% weaker than Lucarionite (which certainly isn't negligible) it can still tear through cores with incredible consistency as that set will have hazard support from the likes of Hisuian Samurott and Hearthflame Mask Great Tusk. There's also just Latiosite which removes Groundceus and Hippowdon, two very respectable Pokemon in the tier, as reliable answers, even if Lucarionite can either sometimes OHKO @ +2 versus the former or just usually live a super-effective hit frrom the latter for some ungodly reason. Basically, Ceruledge is the main cause for a lot of discontent defensively that the tier currently has.

Ceruledge definitely helps break through traditional cores, but it does so in such a way that makes most defensive Pokemon really inconsistent as a result, limiting who can actually be slotted on a team without just automatically losing. I do also have my qualms with Spectrier for doing the exact same thing in the builder but it notably is 1) weaker as it relies on Shadow Ball instead of Poltergeist and 2) has more answers, such as the very reliable Ho-Oh. However, this suspect is about Ceruledge and not Spectrier, so I shan't go further with Spectrier. The main point I want to drive home is that Ceruledge is overwhelmingly warping to an unhealthy degree, much akin to how Gouging Fire was in OU. Yeah, you can definitely run counters, but are you either running multiple answers to cover the three sets or is running one of the two hard counters worth running when they hard limit what a team can run? The past week has felt so much more enjoyable to build, and having Ceruledge return to the tier would feel like a slap in the face.
 
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Plan on voting ban for a lot of what the OP and Clas talk about. To summarize though;

I think it's a really dynamic offensive option that is both difficult to build against and with, as you do have to build pretty specifically around it, but it's just so overwhelming that it's worth making those concessions. There is legitimate counterplay, such as bulky Arceus-Water, Garganacl, and Eternatus variants, all of which are good in their own right, and you can prioritize it in preview with a lot of standard cores to keep it from running away with a game, but it just does so much that it feels like you're always trading down vs it and I don't think it has a positive impact on the tier overall.
 
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Took forever but here is my reqs!

Honestly Don't know if I am voting ban or do not ban!

Edit: Here is the basic team I used: https://pokepast.es/dfa1bb7ac7f8a0f8
 
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this is gonna be long sorry ^^' .reqs was fun and silly i would've gotten the -0 but i disconnected twice :(. i used my ompl team because i am in a building drought :great-tusk:-:urshifu-rapid-strike:-:mandibuzz:-:iron-moth:-:Arceus-fairy:-:clodsire: shoutout to some guy who used lucarionite tinkaton because i proceeded to sack half my team before realizing urshifu ohkos it with close combat (ignore the fact that i had a iron moth that i definitely DID NOT forget about).
ceruledge is a mon that i saw rise in usage around the time space posted their mnm rmt. at the time walking wake was still legal which definitely made an impact on ceru's performance; albeit it was still an incredibly scary mon. however with walking wake gone, ceru is consistently putting in work in many ompl games.
however another trend that i saw post wake ban was that the meta was starting to evolve in response to walking wake's absence and the rise of ceru. magearna although still incredibly strong, has been pushed aside as great tusk has recently taken the spotlight. another mon that has rose in usage is aerilate dragonite. it no longer has to run altarianite to attempt to check wake.
now what does all of this have to do with ceru? well when players are using mage, they are much more cautious to avoid letting ceru for free. with the rise of grusk, it is easier to get up stealth rock and or keep them off, this is a double edged sword as with stealth rock on the opposing field ceru can now get ohko or 2hkos on would be checks, with stealth rock on ceru's field it gets chunked each time it tries to switch in. aerilate dnite can revenge kill ceru with a little chip.
in my opinion, its pointless to try to defensively counter ceruledge, unless you wanna run a blue orb normal type or something. instead, running mons or moves on mons that can ohko or chunk ceruledge is much easiers when you want to beat it. heres a couple mons i currently like that can kill ceru: dedge pinsirite grusk ohkos latiosite and lucarionite from full, it trades with diancite; shifu-r (who knew?! still loses to diancite though); metagrossite or lopunnite great tusk can outspeed and ohko lucarionite (and latiosite if you are lopunnite) ceruledge but both lose to diancite; offensive waterceus or fairyceus (with coverage) can outspeed lucarionite and latiosite but lose to diancite unless you sub or cm on their destiny bond or something; lorb etern with dynamax cannon and rock can kill both lucarionite and latiosite but still loses to diancite; lorb etern with draco and modest (very cool set that also ohkos some tusk sets that don't outspeed) can ohko ceru without rocks but again still loses to diancite (both lorb etern sets may win against diancite if lorb isn't revealed); personally my favorite set out of these blorb kingambit can just hard switch into ceruledge and set up, vs diancite you can just click kowtow after dbond (DO NOT CLICK SUCKER PUNCH I REPEAT DO NOT CLICK SUCKER PUNCH). basically just pack alot of mons that beat ceruledge 1v1.
i'll share my experience with ceruledge while laddering for recs. out of 23 matches, i encountered it around 12 times, majority being lucarionite however there were two times i fought latiosite and two times i fought diancite. when fighting lucarionite i usually just click dedge on it and it would die, or jolly ceruledge would win the speedtie (at +2) and then mandibuzz would click foul play and it would die. in the two times i fought latiosite, they both combusted to grusk dedge. diancite is the most tricky set to fight out of these, i would usually have to get up rocks and then dragon tail it out when it tried to set up or sweep. i think that this team's ceru match up is very very good as not a single mon is weak to either of ceru's stabs (clod, can even live can live a poltergeist into bblade at full after mega) so this is a bit skewed.
closing thoughts are that ceruledge is insanely hard to defensively counter so your team structure has to be able to outplay it. i personally think that mix and mega is not in a super awesome place right now and its definitely not as fun as it was when solgaleo and lugia were legal. i feel that when those two mons were legal the tier was more creativity with building teams and there was more variance in mon usage even though both lugia and solgaleo were overbearing. i would love to see the tier return to a higher power level. not completely sure what to vote but at the moment and with the tiers direction towards a more lower power level metagame, i'm leaning towards ban. actually just let everything mega again.
 
Hello!
i am one of the few ceruledge defenders (lol) many think it should be banned, but i disagree ceruledge is a strong mon dont get me wrong but with such poor defenses it can often get ohkoed by sucker punch from most mons, if you want to be fast, you have to get one weak armor boost before mega evolving which is unreliable and makes you MORE weak to sucker, people say lucarionite ceru is great but its speed is only base 106 which is outsped by almost any diancite pokemon. In short: ceruledge is good but counterplay is around every corner, so i believe it is unworthy of being banned. team i used: https://pokepast.es/1eb3c5afcef8202a
 
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