Yeah I do agree with this. I’m not sure how many broken users their needs to be (last respects and shed tail only needed two but this is probably different), but I think theres a good argument that it is broken on at the very least, Dnite, Kyurem, and Gambit. There are more examples in OU but if we extend it to banned pokemon, then we can add espathra and regieleki to the list for sure, as well as potentially Volc. Moon and Goug were broken with or without Tera Blast but I do think tera blast made them even worse than they already were.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
There are like 70 fully-evolved pokemon in generation 9. Tera blast is available on every single one of them. It has significant usage on a single-digit cohort. I'd argue that none of those are overpowering. Maybe exclusively dragonite has "broken" interactions with tera blast. Personally, I do not consider this to be the case. If tera blast were some broken move, then you'd see teams running 6 copies, but you don't, because that would be bad. There are obvious tradeoffs against other moves and you have to build your team around its usage. I think the result promotes and retains thoughtful, experienced, and tactical play and building.
I don't find any validity in a point about "unhealthy" variance either. I sympathize with matchup issues that might be present in a best-of-one/three tournament setting, but I think it would be faulty to alter tiering at large for a format that can be heavily skewed by "lol I brought stall/rain". For as long as teams/sets are hidden, there will be unpredictability in the game. Getting wiped by TB is not very different from getting smoked by stone edge or ice fang from zamazenta on a switch. The toolbox extends to more than the fragile notion of the 4 moves a pokemon "should" be running.
In gen 9, this meta gaming of sets/techs/typing is particularly dynamic, and, for me, that is what has kept things interesting. If the tier happens to stagnate on finding a solution to a supposedly broken user of tera blast, then sure, suspect it, but that has not happened, and, if anything, I again see the increase in TB usage as innovation to overcome stalwart defensive threats like doggo and moose (which are STILL dominant despite the presence of this supposedly problematic move lol).
Anyway...off to run 6x custap pokemon and grief people
I don't find any validity in a point about "unhealthy" variance either. I sympathize with matchup issues that might be present in a best-of-one/three tournament setting, but I think it would be faulty to alter tiering at large for a format that can be heavily skewed by "lol I brought stall/rain". For as long as teams/sets are hidden, there will be unpredictability in the game. Getting wiped by TB is not very different from getting smoked by stone edge or ice fang from zamazenta on a switch. The toolbox extends to more than the fragile notion of the 4 moves a pokemon "should" be running.
In gen 9, this meta gaming of sets/techs/typing is particularly dynamic, and, for me, that is what has kept things interesting. If the tier happens to stagnate on finding a solution to a supposedly broken user of tera blast, then sure, suspect it, but that has not happened, and, if anything, I again see the increase in TB usage as innovation to overcome stalwart defensive threats like doggo and moose (which are STILL dominant despite the presence of this supposedly problematic move lol).
Anyway...off to run 6x custap pokemon and grief people
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Zamazenta broken in big 2025? Reminder that neither Zama nor Ting-lu have reliable recovery, so I think its ludicrous to suggest you need tera blast to beat them when you can simply wear them down with hazards and good play. They get used a lot because they check a lot of problematic things (aka, they are the problem, not the solution). There’s a very good reason that the support for a zama test has done from low to nonexistent in the past year, it’s just not broken. It’s used a lot because it provides defensive stability, in that sense its not really unlike lando-T in pretty much every gen in that regard.
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For fun I was going to take some of the posts describing the justification for sleep ban and change it to tera blast- but I'm at work and it's too much to do. But refer to the post and see my point
I agree with sleep ban and understand it also came with sleep clause actually being a mod of the game that needed corrected. But what led to sleeps ban was mostly two Pokemon that used it to then boost stats and sweep "forcing progress early" which is apparently bad.
Tera blast similarly forces progress early for sweepers that can remove checks /counters it otherwise shouldn't be able to quickly if at all.
Also 3.7 survey was enough "noteworthy" to make the decision to outright ban. 3.1 was not enough to discuss. I really am not trying to make it into a conspiracy. I'm not even placing blame. I can respect there being different opinions. But I think it is obvious and must be acknowledged that tera blast getting a 3 despite any support from leadership does make it noteworthy. I can't recall how many hundred pages back but I do believe it was not even allowed to be discussed for some period of time!
I only state this in opposition to the idea that the support for it's ban is nearly non-existent. It's certainly more evident to me that it has support than it was for roaring Moon was, to which it's ban support is not quantified and we can only rely on testimony from the elite circle. Of course it was then banned which is cited as the support having existed- but that's not the same standard being applied here for tera blast which could be banned under a suspect and then I could proceed to say how I was right about the support existing prior but I know that wouldn't be quite logical!
I only want the debate over tera blast to be on its merits! I disagree strongly over the comments that it shouldn't be considered due to lack of support.
This is especially true given it's implications. Each prominent user of the move banned or suspected I've always felt was a potentially wasteful exercise given the possibility of a tera blast ban which has never been addressed and may result in lost time towards the tiers end result.
I would just like to to be discussed for what it is rather than hypothetical consequences, your perceived community support, or similar.
The idea that it can't be separated from tera is very silly. It's completely replicable on cart by agreeing to it.
Respectfully
I agree with sleep ban and understand it also came with sleep clause actually being a mod of the game that needed corrected. But what led to sleeps ban was mostly two Pokemon that used it to then boost stats and sweep "forcing progress early" which is apparently bad.
Tera blast similarly forces progress early for sweepers that can remove checks /counters it otherwise shouldn't be able to quickly if at all.
Also 3.7 survey was enough "noteworthy" to make the decision to outright ban. 3.1 was not enough to discuss. I really am not trying to make it into a conspiracy. I'm not even placing blame. I can respect there being different opinions. But I think it is obvious and must be acknowledged that tera blast getting a 3 despite any support from leadership does make it noteworthy. I can't recall how many hundred pages back but I do believe it was not even allowed to be discussed for some period of time!
I only state this in opposition to the idea that the support for it's ban is nearly non-existent. It's certainly more evident to me that it has support than it was for roaring Moon was, to which it's ban support is not quantified and we can only rely on testimony from the elite circle. Of course it was then banned which is cited as the support having existed- but that's not the same standard being applied here for tera blast which could be banned under a suspect and then I could proceed to say how I was right about the support existing prior but I know that wouldn't be quite logical!
I only want the debate over tera blast to be on its merits! I disagree strongly over the comments that it shouldn't be considered due to lack of support.
This is especially true given it's implications. Each prominent user of the move banned or suspected I've always felt was a potentially wasteful exercise given the possibility of a tera blast ban which has never been addressed and may result in lost time towards the tiers end result.
I would just like to to be discussed for what it is rather than hypothetical consequences, your perceived community support, or similar.
The idea that it can't be separated from tera is very silly. It's completely replicable on cart by agreeing to it.
Respectfully
This is a huge difference when you consider the sample size and the fact that it is only a 5 point scale! 3.7 is always a suspect and even has been a quickban once or twice while 3.1 is below the normal suspect threshold. We typically discard most things under 3 and Tera Blast had been there, too, but we elected not to due to the polarizing nature of the topic and some internal support.
We had three council members in favor of acting on it and one is very outspoken in Ausma, who is also a forum leader and spoke out before the survey back then. You continue to claim that my sphere of influence is somehow dictating how tiering goes and use it to discredit survey responses while plucking other numbers to try and prove a point — this just is not a productive exercise. Most of the qualified playerbase is made up of people capable of independent thought and a vast majority have disagreements with me over time, look how many verdicts I’ve voted the opposite of this generation. And that’s good, it’s the point of the system. But the system doesn’t work when people claim there is some data based conspiracy, even if you include “this isn’t meant to be a conspiracy”…it’s like saying “no offense” after being offensive
This isn’t how we look at tiering. I mean we did not even have the ability to ban Last Respects early on and no move bans are going to happen before numerous Pokemon bans with how things are. The framework notes that the bar for a move ban to be quite high, indicating a significant chunk of Pokemon having to be broken with the move among other things (see: OP of the tiering policy thread). Moves being broken aren’t and never have been subject to the same parameters as individual Pokemon. This isn’t even mentioning only 3 Pokemon being banned due to the move directly when every single Pokemon can use it, but I digress.
I feel like it is VERY hard to argue about Tera Blast being put down when there is quite literally a policy review thread about the topic despite middling support among the playerbase and a majority of the council against it. Yes, it took a while. Yes, it scored similarly-ish to things which ended up suspected (Ursaluna lol). The discussion is here now, though, in both this thread copied via Finch and the PR thread to those who have perms to respond. Now is the time to actually argue the merit of potentially banning Tera Blast rather than complain about it only happening now.
For my own two cents, I think its a bit of a policy nightmare inbetween Baton Pass which certainly breaks more Pokemon than TB on a move with perfect distribution, but also clearly not something like Last Respects or Shed Tail which objectively breaks every user it has. I'd personally prefer it gone just to streamline things a bit, but I'd defer the policy arguments to those in the thread. Being entirely self serving and ignoring policy, my argument would be to suspect it because there's plenty chance that it doesn't get banned anyway, if only to get it out of or lower discourse for a bit. As was stated in the PR thread, if banning TB was explicitly against policy, the discussion simply wouldn't exist. At that point I would skip the middleman of a sorta not really PR/Suspect thread debate and just go to a real suspect and have the regular/qualified threads for discussion. I however, am not the Council.
For my own two cents, I think its a bit of a policy nightmare inbetween Baton Pass which certainly breaks more Pokemon than TB on a move with perfect distribution, but also clearly not something like Last Respects or Shed Tail which objectively breaks every user it has. I'd personally prefer it gone just to streamline things a bit, but I'd defer the policy arguments to those in the thread. Being entirely self serving and ignoring policy, my argument would be to suspect it because there's plenty chance that it doesn't get banned anyway, if only to get it out of or lower discourse for a bit. As was stated in the PR thread, if banning TB was explicitly against policy, the discussion simply wouldn't exist. At that point I would skip the middleman of a sorta not really PR/Suspect thread debate and just go to a real suspect and have the regular/qualified threads for discussion. I however, am not the Council.
Tera blast is not broken, it does not warp the metagame and isn't even used in the majority of games. The only consistent abuser of the move is Dragonite, so maybe that should be looked at separately. Some players hate it because it catches them off guard but they need to accept that the element of surprise is an important part of SV OU
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon was a funny case because we surveyed close to release and it was in the high 2s iirc, but within a week it began using good sets and was very clearly broken. Ended up almost getting quickbanned and receiving absurd levels of support in the suspect.
This just shows how volatile and finicky metagames are close to releases, especially relative to developed and tenured metagames like the current.
yeah im not saying that was a mistake or anything, just that its scores in the high 2-low 3s is close to some other items in the past and also is pretty consistent with the numbers in the survey as far as I'm aware. Iirc that range tends to be "not acting yet but sudden metagame developments or interest over time can lead to action"
Generally 3.5 or above (if it’s the top score of any Pokemon) close to guarantees action and low 3s depend a lot more on council support, but it’s far from a perfect science. A lot hinges on circumstances — if a release is coming or a huge tournament like OLT, which tends to shake up the metagame, is coming, then it could factor into our calculus. There are other things we look at, too. It’s far from a linear progression
This post is more asking for clarification than an argument in itself, but goobing fire (I don't know how to tag people here) previously said that surprise factor is an important element to SVOU, which was liked by Finch so I'm assuming he agrees. Is this only the case for SVOU or has it always been true? And if so, why is that? In my mind, surprise factor being championed intuitively feels counterproductive to creating a meta in which 'player skill', as defined in the tiering policy, is at its highest—even taking into account the role of deduction based on given information as a part of that player skill.
Though I suppose tera blast's insane malleability to keep the same threats just as threatening in the face of new meta developments does make it more predictable in a sense (e.g. currently I would suspect tera blast fairy a little more if I see a raging bolt paired with moth or crown, or tera blast fairy gambit on a team that doesn't otherwise pressure Zama/Lu). But now I'm not sure if this even qualifies as surprise factor? Is surprise factor supposed to just be another word for a tech?
If we are looking at tera blast through the lens of it just being a tech, then that does shift how I view things. Though as techs go, tera blast does not seem particularly inspired or skillful in the builder as a tech, given its latent value is so high that it is worth running even though it will be a dead slot in games where it doesn't hit. And the tech itself is just 'super effective stab coverage into a any check I want'. After laying all of that out, I can now understand more why some people think tera blast is 'cheese' relative to more innovative ways of solving puzzles in the team builder.
I won't pretend that it doesn't atleast take some modicum of skill to execute in a game, since you obviously cannot just mindlessly tera fairy blast every Ting Lu with your bolt regardless of the game state haha. Though the skill ask for understanding when to tera blast is not a very high one I would say, reinforcing the idea that tera blast is kind of 'cheese'.
As I see it, the skill:value ratio (very real and objective metric) of tera blast breakers, while I am still unsure on whether or not they are banworthy, make a miserable presence on the metagame, and are also more resistant to being 'adapted to' as well, since:
1 - unlike previous banned elements, there is little argument for the meta changing to accommodate tera blast, since you can just change the tera type to fit in the new hole presented. This has already been happening throughout the SV lifecycle anyway.
2 - in a more fast paced, offense orientated meta like SVOU, tera blast on breakers is more accomonated naturally, because there is less room in games to scout where the weight of every turn is very heavy, and less room in the builder to account for tera blast, given that threats already saturate the meta and already take up much consideration when building.
This is only tangentially related, but I have been thinking recently about why SVOU feels exhausting to play for me, and concluded that it's because the optimal way to play it is to learn every new innovation that's being used so you are never surprised and lose from what feels like something that was out of your control. This has always been true regardless of the generation, but the sheer volatility introduced in SV (moreso due to GF getting more crazy than smogon tiering I think) means that the number of variations for offense feel near impossible to 'get on top of'. There is always something new every week, if not multiple new small innovations (of which, a new or resurging tera blast set is not uncommonly a part of). Maybe things will smoothen out later cause we're still mid-gen, and I am glad we have so many good players now who can come up with these things. But I would be lying if I said I was not looking forward to a meta that felt more 'solved'. This is probably why I have been enjoying SSOU recently, and I wonder if SVOU will ever reach such harmony in a year's time, or if by its very nature, SVOU is going to forever be a breeding ground for chaos.
Though I suppose tera blast's insane malleability to keep the same threats just as threatening in the face of new meta developments does make it more predictable in a sense (e.g. currently I would suspect tera blast fairy a little more if I see a raging bolt paired with moth or crown, or tera blast fairy gambit on a team that doesn't otherwise pressure Zama/Lu). But now I'm not sure if this even qualifies as surprise factor? Is surprise factor supposed to just be another word for a tech?
If we are looking at tera blast through the lens of it just being a tech, then that does shift how I view things. Though as techs go, tera blast does not seem particularly inspired or skillful in the builder as a tech, given its latent value is so high that it is worth running even though it will be a dead slot in games where it doesn't hit. And the tech itself is just 'super effective stab coverage into a any check I want'. After laying all of that out, I can now understand more why some people think tera blast is 'cheese' relative to more innovative ways of solving puzzles in the team builder.
I won't pretend that it doesn't atleast take some modicum of skill to execute in a game, since you obviously cannot just mindlessly tera fairy blast every Ting Lu with your bolt regardless of the game state haha. Though the skill ask for understanding when to tera blast is not a very high one I would say, reinforcing the idea that tera blast is kind of 'cheese'.
As I see it, the skill:value ratio (very real and objective metric) of tera blast breakers, while I am still unsure on whether or not they are banworthy, make a miserable presence on the metagame, and are also more resistant to being 'adapted to' as well, since:
1 - unlike previous banned elements, there is little argument for the meta changing to accommodate tera blast, since you can just change the tera type to fit in the new hole presented. This has already been happening throughout the SV lifecycle anyway.
2 - in a more fast paced, offense orientated meta like SVOU, tera blast on breakers is more accomonated naturally, because there is less room in games to scout where the weight of every turn is very heavy, and less room in the builder to account for tera blast, given that threats already saturate the meta and already take up much consideration when building.
This is only tangentially related, but I have been thinking recently about why SVOU feels exhausting to play for me, and concluded that it's because the optimal way to play it is to learn every new innovation that's being used so you are never surprised and lose from what feels like something that was out of your control. This has always been true regardless of the generation, but the sheer volatility introduced in SV (moreso due to GF getting more crazy than smogon tiering I think) means that the number of variations for offense feel near impossible to 'get on top of'. There is always something new every week, if not multiple new small innovations (of which, a new or resurging tera blast set is not uncommonly a part of). Maybe things will smoothen out later cause we're still mid-gen, and I am glad we have so many good players now who can come up with these things. But I would be lying if I said I was not looking forward to a meta that felt more 'solved'. This is probably why I have been enjoying SSOU recently, and I wonder if SVOU will ever reach such harmony in a year's time, or if by its very nature, SVOU is going to forever be a breeding ground for chaos.
Whelp, with Tera Blast possibly being nuked, I decided to give the one shitty gimmick mon (that I can't let go of) a shot with another shot with a set that I think COULD cook given the right MU (main issue is just a few guys like Gambit, Dnite, zama, etc).
Cryogonal @ Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Freeze-Dry
- Tera Blast
- Recover
Idea is simple: With Tera Blast Ground, Cryogonal can beat most of OU's premier spinblockers with its STAB combination alone. All of Gholdengo, Sinistcha, Pecharunt, and Dragapult will be struggling to swap in, esp with a bit of external support. Something nice about Cryo is that it is immune to webs which I find impossible to spin vs when I use Non-HDB tusk teams.
My team was pretty shit since Cryogonal does open itself up to holes vs a few too many mons, but Cryogonal itself actually did what I expected pretty well. It was able to offensively threaten, lure, and KO the Spinblockers as anticipated. I did expect its utility to end here, which it partially did.
Still, Cryogonal's offensive utility extended a bit further beyond what I was expecting. Its MU into most of the key hazard setters like Ting-Lu, Garchomp, Great Tusk, Glimmora and Heatran is also pretty great due to most of these guys being fucked by the perfect coverage of Freeze Dry / Tera Blast Ground. In general, most slower paced teams didn't exactly have the tools to swap into that perfect coverage safely.
Of course, that isn't to say this mon is flawless - that's far from the case. Being vulnerable to a revenge KO by so many physical tier like Gambit, Zamazenta, Cinderace, and Weavile, which are some of the more difficult Pokemon in the tier to consistently handle, isn't great, and it does get fucked up by opposing Teras pretty hard. Being a Tera hog isn't great either. Lot of games where it did feel flat out useless.
On the bright side, I do think Cryogonal's use as a Tera Hog to become a spinner is pretty fun if nothing else and feel that its potential could be fully unlocked if a builder other than myself expiremented with it a bit as an anti-webs option or something.
Cryogonal @ Expert Belt
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Rapid Spin
- Freeze-Dry
- Tera Blast
- Recover
Idea is simple: With Tera Blast Ground, Cryogonal can beat most of OU's premier spinblockers with its STAB combination alone. All of Gholdengo, Sinistcha, Pecharunt, and Dragapult will be struggling to swap in, esp with a bit of external support. Something nice about Cryo is that it is immune to webs which I find impossible to spin vs when I use Non-HDB tusk teams.
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pecharunt: 283-334 (74.4 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 276-326 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sinistcha: 266-317 (76.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dragapult: 312-370 (98.4 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gholdengo: 276-326 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sinistcha: 266-317 (76.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Tera Ground Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Dragapult: 312-370 (98.4 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Still, Cryogonal's offensive utility extended a bit further beyond what I was expecting. Its MU into most of the key hazard setters like Ting-Lu, Garchomp, Great Tusk, Glimmora and Heatran is also pretty great due to most of these guys being fucked by the perfect coverage of Freeze Dry / Tera Blast Ground. In general, most slower paced teams didn't exactly have the tools to swap into that perfect coverage safely.
Of course, that isn't to say this mon is flawless - that's far from the case. Being vulnerable to a revenge KO by so many physical tier like Gambit, Zamazenta, Cinderace, and Weavile, which are some of the more difficult Pokemon in the tier to consistently handle, isn't great, and it does get fucked up by opposing Teras pretty hard. Being a Tera hog isn't great either. Lot of games where it did feel flat out useless.
On the bright side, I do think Cryogonal's use as a Tera Hog to become a spinner is pretty fun if nothing else and feel that its potential could be fully unlocked if a builder other than myself expiremented with it a bit as an anti-webs option or something.
Surprise factor is a staple across virtually any format of competitive Pokemon. Each generation has its own, unique arms race of innovation and strategy. I am not only talking about one offs so much as I am new sets, cores, Pokemon, etc. that have sticking power and surprise people initially.
The goal of this game is to win and oftentimes doing so can involve throwing the opponent off guard or having their expectations differ from your reality if you are facing them. Being able to innovate or surprise the opponent is a form of skill expression.
Without this, the game becomes overly standardized and robotic, repetitive, etc. far too quickly. Having a lively metagame like SV OU mandates innovation and evolution. They go hand-in-hand.
The way to master any tier is by becoming competent. That’s not SV OU specific. Tera makes some facets of this more intensive maybe, but this surely cannot be branded as SV specific.
To me it just reads like you want a more stagnant metagame state where standard is standard, not some regularly evolving metagame. In this case, old generations move at a much slower pace and the most recent old generation is frequently overshadowed, meaning it moved at a snail’s pace. SS OU would absolutely fit the bill.
But during CG, SS OU evolved constantly through innovation and tiering action. Hell, we even saw it shift a bit this Summer during WCoP. It just doesn’t happen at the same pace as an active, flagship metagame.
I really feel like none of these arguments actually have anything to do with Tera Blast being broken and you just want a slower progressing Metagame.
I also want to point out that being able to be consistent with a set, Pokemon, strategy, etc. that an opponent identifies as “surprise factor” (not standard or known) is a major skill in it of itself. It’s one of the biggest distinguishes in competitive Pokemon history.
How do you guys think the best players distinguish themselves? Trying to explain away the difference by saying Tera Blast is the issue without concrete examples isn’t it. The answer is through being innovative and making more of the tools at their disposal than their opponents. Generating surprise factor and uneasiness within the opponent due to your own strategy is the name of the game.
How do you guys think the best players distinguish themselves? Trying to explain away the difference by saying Tera Blast is the issue without concrete examples isn’t it. The answer is through being innovative and making more of the tools at their disposal than their opponents. Generating surprise factor and uneasiness within the opponent due to your own strategy is the name of the game.
I don't think removing tb actually achieves anything other than removing another tool in the builder, on the other thread there's an example where it's cited that without tb the ceruledge player does not have to fear a tb ground from Iron moth flipping the matchup, but does that differ much from the moth player using tera dark/normal to sponge shadow sneak and then explode edge using power herb meteor beam? I could even play the devil's advocate and say that beam requires less resources than tb ground while achieving the same results vs fire types slower than you.
In a game where mons can flip their typing, it's hella hard to find true counters, if y'all wanted a truly more easy to read metagame, the core mechanic as a whole should have been looked at, but that did not happen and the usage of your ace card to flip the current matchup is a part of the gen, and i think that it should be as a whole like it's now, and not in a butchered way. Utilizing tera is already a massive cost and using, in addition, a moveslot that is otherwise almost useless does not seem that lightweight to me; those ultrateched sets like DD encore flyingblast eq that is used on dnite can quickly become a free switch for any levitating mon if the dnite player had to use it's tera earlier to avoid the match going south.
The premise as a whole looks kinda incoherent, if using X resource to flip the type chart is good, how is using X+1 resources to add extra coverage bad? the opportunity cost ratio seems legit to me and there is no true predictability in both situations.
As a last thing, it scored a 2,76, the idea that evokes is that there's a loud minority that, due to its consistency in posting against the move, appears more numerous than it really is, cuz that score is so low.
In a game where mons can flip their typing, it's hella hard to find true counters, if y'all wanted a truly more easy to read metagame, the core mechanic as a whole should have been looked at, but that did not happen and the usage of your ace card to flip the current matchup is a part of the gen, and i think that it should be as a whole like it's now, and not in a butchered way. Utilizing tera is already a massive cost and using, in addition, a moveslot that is otherwise almost useless does not seem that lightweight to me; those ultrateched sets like DD encore flyingblast eq that is used on dnite can quickly become a free switch for any levitating mon if the dnite player had to use it's tera earlier to avoid the match going south.
The premise as a whole looks kinda incoherent, if using X resource to flip the type chart is good, how is using X+1 resources to add extra coverage bad? the opportunity cost ratio seems legit to me and there is no true predictability in both situations.
As a last thing, it scored a 2,76, the idea that evokes is that there's a loud minority that, due to its consistency in posting against the move, appears more numerous than it really is, cuz that score is so low.
Obviously every gen sees constant experimentation and innovation, however I don't think its fair to even suggest that any other gen is even close to SV OU when it comes to sheer "suprise factor". This isn't necessarily a bad thing; however the biggest point the ban TB crowd wants to put forth is that at some point this gets amplified to a point where the tier just becomes a endless guessing game. Innovation is healthy but there needs to be some semblance of structure. The question we should be asking is "does tera blast cross the line between healthy innovation and chaos"
Pretty much every tera blast abuser already has plenty of coverage to choose from. Mons like Dragonite, Moth, Valiant, Kyurem, Ceruledge, etc. already have very wide coverage movepools and would still have plenty of variation without tera blast, however removing it would decrease volatility when playing aganist them which the ban crowd views as a positive for the long term health of the tier
This is the main benefit I see to having TB deducted as an option. Frankly the fact a mon like IronVal can choose to have Ground coverage on top of its already massive pool simply makes countering some sets feel like an experiment in frustration. It's why even if I think a mon like Dnite is fine insofar, that its ability to gain Ghost or Fairy coverage makes it extremely daunting to prepare for in the builder.
I think TB is honestly a great idea in concept, but the fact that it pushes some mons form going "this is fine" to "why did it need access to that" is part of why this gen feels a bit dodgy to play at times. At the same time though, i do admit it is very 'fun' to run some shit like Okidogi with TB Flying or similar. It's all fun and games tho until Gambit walks in with "Choose your Counter Check" button though
This is covered by the framework and my argument though.
Think about it: if a move caused the entire generation to be overtaken by “surprise factor” and caused users to undergo literal “guessing games” (like sleep), then surely more than 3 Pokemon would be banned already…surely a substantial amount of Pokemon using the move would be banned…surely the tier wouldn’t have relatively good marks throughout the last year…right?
The facts of the situation elude this line of argumentation. There is no way you can look at SV OU, having only banned a very small handful of a large pool of possible users, and say that Tera Blast meets the criteria for a move ban as I have outlined. The math is simply not mathing.
So this is where there is a disconnect. You guys are arguing that the move fits criterion for it to be broken through the scope of the most capable and strong users of it, which have been banned or are at least discussed as possible targets now. This is fine, but that just means we should look at the Pokemon because it is very clear that the vast majority of users of the move are plenty balanced.
This argument right here highlights exactly why Pokemon are targeted and not the move despite the poster perhaps feeling the opposite.
“pushes some mons” — he denotes Dragonite and Kingambit as potential problems and that is fine, but those are clearly the exception, not the rule. There are far more cases like Okidogi, where it just isn’t problematic (I don’t find Dragonite broken either, but that’s another topic for another day).
If we play this game, we end up banning an awful lot of moves and items rather than tiering Pokemon. Quiver Dance would be excommunicated from lower tiers. There is a reason why the bar is set strictly.
even if there has only been 3 actual bans, there is atleast 5 more users that are controversial with the move
I am not saying it makes the tier unplayable or something, far from it. However, this doesn't mean it's not a desirable element and it also doesn't mean the tier wouldn't improve without it.
Shed tail and Last respects only needed 2, right? Why wouldn't we just ban cyclizar, orthworm, basculegion, and houndstone by this logic? Why remove pokemon from a tier when the amount of users is more than enough to show the move is the issue
in the context of OU, this was just volcarona, hence why volc was the ban
It's undesirable, TO YOU.
3 pokemon learn shed tail, 2 were issues in OU, with sceptile waiting to do the same thing.
4 pokemon learn last respects, it was an issue on all of them.
every pokemon learns tera blast. It was good on volcarona. That pokemon was riding more off its ability to get 2 quiver dances off of a defensive tera, hugely punishing fairy/fighting clicks. That has been the case in past generations when tera blast didn't exist too. It's disingenuous to say tera blast is why espathra and regieleki were banned; they would both be too much with any coverage to complement their overwhelmingly powerful STAB moves and speed.
4/4 > 2/3 >> 3/70
So, math.
Is the general playerbase really this slow to understand Tera? Why is Nite breaking everyone's minds lmfao.
This interaction is the exact same without TB. Zama is extremely centralizing in this meta, and Fusien has a good team which has a dedicated check. Mike should have known it was coming from team preview plus the way Fusien was playing.
Just because the Zama couldn't cheese another win doesn't make TB broken lol.
Encore Ghost Nite still wins here with EQ and Dragon/Ice coverage.
"gives you coverage that stuff shouldnt inherently get."
Bro, Tera gives your RESISTANCES mons shouldn't inherently get. Free setup situations.. the ability to RK things your normally couldn't.
"we have a dnite that cheesed its way to victory by tera ghosting and using encore and using tb ghost, when it should have lost the 3v1."
King.. do you know how many thousands of games in SV have been flipped around when someone "should have lost" that have nothing to do with TB and everything to do with Tera.
"ou shouldnt have to keep an stupid mechanic around just so mons can get past their checks, that's not fun or balanced in any way"
The players that wanted to ban Tera literally said exactly what you're saying now. Holy shit like is it just now getting though your skulls that Tera inherently has v problematic aspects to it.
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I will briefly highlight how nonsensical it is to try and neuter Tera and punish mons with lackluster coverage. Darkrai can Tera Psn and take advantage of Sludge Bomb, which is cool, but let's say it didn't naturally get SB. Now we have a mon that has a dead move slot unless it fully commits. That's much worse than naturally having coverage, obviously.
It's Summer of 2025... we can just assume by now that if a mon can Tera into a Fairy, it's going to have Fairy coverage in TB. All a TB ban would do is hurt offensive mons with lack of certain coverage options, and make the ones with good coverage better. Tera-Ghost Val doesn't need to have a dead slot to utilize Shadow Ball, but if it did are we really saying it's any less predictable than S-Ball?
Val can Tera-Electric and use T-Bolt, but I hear shrieking about TB Ground as if that is somehow more overpowered than what we already have in Tera. Enam would definitely use TB Ground, but it already has Earth Power. It's comical to imply that TB Ground Enam would somehow be a problem, when obviously Earth Power Tera-Ground Enam isn't warping the meta.
Frankly, with all due respect, it's a little asinine to be talking about banning TB. Woger or Nite should be on the table for discussion, if discussions are even to be had about improving the current meta. If we think a mon is broken via Tera, which includes TB, then suspect it. Not that complicated of a concept seeing as that's what we've been doing since day 1 without any issues. If you see a mon like Serp that can't touch Heatran... just activate some neurons and assume in a Tera meta that there's a high probability that mon may have coverage moves that it normally doesn't have. Hidden Power was a thing for over a decade lol like let's be serious please.
At what point is there a confusion, seriously asking. We have a good idea of what mons like to Tera into, most relevant tera types for each mon are documented. If you clock that a Nite is most likely Ghost due to a team being Zama weak, you literally have the info right there. You know it's going to be TB Ghost. Kyurem is not getting surprise KOs with TB. This whole argument about volatility doesn't make much sense.
The mons that keep getting listed in TB convos are ones that have either had suspects or maybe should have one. If you're really getting surprised and swept consistently by TB it is 100% a skill or builder issue.
Shed Tail broke every fully evolved user that had it. So did Last Respects.
Tera Blast breaks 1% of fully evolved users.
We remove Pokemon before any other element because we tier Pokemon. Suspects are predominantly of Pokemon, Ubers is a banlist littered with Pokemon, OU is comprised of Pokemon, etc. — this is fundamental. Tera Blast is not in the same stratosphere as Shed Tail or Last Respects. This is my entire point. Those moves are where the bar is, and Tera Blast is not reaching this bar.
You could argue 3 or 6 or 8 Pokemon are broken with the move and it still would not meet the criteria.
idk man seems like a lot of people here seems to agree with this notion lmaoevery pokemon learns tera blast. It was good on volcarona. That pokemon was riding more off its ability to get 2 quiver dances off of a defensive tera
hence, why they don't have any good coverage, an intentional choice to balance them that tera blast throws out the window
that begs the question, how many bans will it take for people to finally realize tera blast is the problem?
I wouldn't call losing Tera Blast 100% a "skill or builder issue". It's certainly learned over time and provided complexity, but Tera Blast brings a ton of variance to games that do not exist in other generations. Even with Kyurem for example I run a Mixed Tera Fire Dragon Dance set that runs Tera Blast to get surprise KOs on Gholdengo, Corviknight, and Scizor. I hesitate to ban just Tera Blast when Tera Blast is not the root issue with Tera; the flipping weaknesses on a dime is far worse than a souped up Hidden Power that requires a type change on most occasions to use. Of course that horse left the barn months ago and won't get fixed, but banning Tera Blast isn't something that's high on my priority list.