I do think this sums it up quite nicely, but i do want to add on the fact that 4 of the checks Glalie mentioned were weak to, or 4x weak to in perts case, grass. Yeah grass isnt the best type offensively but if your carrying at least 2 of these checks your defensive core gets beat by a simple SOR Meows, which isnt an uncommon, or bad, set. if you choose 3, or dont bring mew, then a strong, offensive grass type, like the aforementioned meows, or a MGLO Electrode-hisui, tears your defensive core apart too. Dragonite's extreme speed paired with a good grass type has already steamrolled through the team.The reason why you ignored it is irrelevant. The problem was the unnecessary rudeness. It was the equivalent of calling someone just to make them feel bad.
It only has to bring (bolt/beam) + fire or (bolt/beam)+ DDance to cover the vast majority. The other typings were listed just to say it has them, and can be cycled based on its teammates.
Life orb was never mentioned; it doesn't need life orb. Anything that boosts the power of espeed works just fine (i.e. sharp beak or skyplate). Dragonite has 130 base atk, raw espeed deals a third of goodra's hp and 50%+ to whatever doesn't resist & it isn't locked into a move. A DDance and everything gets 1 or 2 shot.
And it doesn't have to run those sets, those are just why I believe it should be banned. As people mentioned, it can just go entirely physical and sweep with frustration. Versatility of sets contribute to a pokemon being banned.
Dragonite does not exist in a vacuum. You leave out context:
This max HP, max Def tusk is nigh oneshot and works against your point. Fully defensive tusk taking that much is like chansey taking that much from focus blast or ting-lu taking that much from a choice banded Iron hands close combat. All 3 live, but the fact dragonite still does that much is a testament to the attacker's power.
The +1 attack is irrelevant because tusk is guaranteed 2HKO'd regardless, no item needed.
How exactly is tusk coming in on dragonite?
And if dragonite is holding an item?
+1 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 374-444 (86.1 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
This further supports my point. Notice how much your calc'd dragonite is doing without a +1 boost nor item. So yeah, once again Great Tusk is in the same ball park with chansey, ting lu, and iron hands. A super effective move nearly one-shotting any of them is a testament to the attacker.
Also ... u are seriously saying a Fini coming in and losing nearly 50% hp is nothing? (Or really any regenerator mon for that matter?) Like you specifically made these pokemon max defense for these calcs and this is how much they are taking.
Let's add more context. Who is entering on who? Fini is entering on dragonite. Now lets give dragonite a 1.2 boost item.
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 138-163 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
1 raw espeed. 40% Maximum became 40% Minimum. Now dragonite switches out, fini switches out to get hp back. Dragonite comes back in, now guess what? Fini cannot switch back in or it dies. Dnite can easily kill 2 regenerator mons by just clicking espeed because it's damage is not negligible. You can save that fini for purely a single switch in on dragonite and the moment it switches out, it stays out unless u are sacking it or something else.
That's not the end of it. This fini is max defense max hp in order to "check" dragonite ... now check this out.
0 SpA Tapu Fini Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 198-234 (61.3 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dragonite ISN'T forced out and can stay in to kill fini. So you literally sent fini in to die. This isn't a ddance boosted dragonite. Its a raw espeed. This is the same relevant example that Xodiac gave when he mentioned that even though corviknight can enter on dragonite, it can't force it out. It wins that 1v1 and traps it in a healing loop.
Hence:
That's a dragonite with no HP nor SpDef.
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Manaphy: 153-180 (37.8 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 260-308 (80.4 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Manaphy suffers the exact same problem. Plus they are going to be running assault vest, not leftovers and they have to choose between regenerator or volt absorb because of hadron engine's existence. Still worse is dragonite can choose to not take the damage. Note that these are all purely using Espeed. No dragon dance. No special attacks. But if it does click ddance :/ ha good luck. You are losing a few pokemon. The stab dragonite gets, over Entei, makes a big difference.
Plus if we're being consistent then we should do a thunderbolt calc for manaphy, just like fini. If manaphy is not assault vested then:
252 SpA Dragonite Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pick your poison.
With choice band they all get 2 shotted by E-speed and the maxed stats mean nothing at that point.
You know what they say about assumptions. And once again, the issue wasn't you ignoring them, it was about the unnecessary action taken after. I hope you see what was actually wrong with that.
Anyways, I didn't quote the mew section because ... I didn't need to. Despite what you may think, I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm trying to prove myself right (without any use of "underhanded" means). I'd already gotten my points across, which were on the mixed dragonite sets and some "controversial mannerisms" displayed. To go beyond that was unnecessary.
The only goal is to "better the meta", so I did not feel the need to try to disprove your each and every syllable. Many people don't understand the distinction between trying to "win" and trying to be "correct". I don't like back and forthing, as it's just not worth it.
But I can backtrack a little, I guess :
More context:
I don't really need to say anything other than this swampert is not specially defensive, and regen swamperts are ran specially defensive for a reason. But I'll still redo the calcs anyways.
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 163-193 (40.3 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragonite: 248-292 (76.7 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dragonite wins without switching out, nor does it have to stay in to get the kill on max/max swampert.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Dragonite Frustration vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 160-190 (39.6 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Aerilate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mew: 127-150 (31.4 - 37.1%) -- 83.4% chance to 3HKO
See, the problem is, there isn't just one type of dragonite lol. And that mew isn't regenerator.
And the problem with this is dragonite isn't meant to 1v1 anything, it's meant to do damage (boom, pow, bam). You're bringing mew in on it. Your response to dragonite is reactionary, not proactive. You have to heal that mew each time, and they can just double out into mew's death. And in general dragonite doesn't have to attack what's in front of it, as its the thing forcing things out.
You can indeed break stall with one mon. There are 2 concepts regarding this. "wallbreaker" as well as "stallbreaker"
I.E. Crawdaunt — Ogerpons — Umbreon — Roaring Moon — Zamazenta — Tapu Fini — Crabominable — Conkeldurr — Victini — Heatran — Mew — Dragonite :/
Yes, annoying ... that's it. Dragonite doesn't just get ice beam. Ice spinner. Casually 2 shots azelf. Removes terrain. Free Espeed. Azelf came in for nothing and must swap.
Mew and Azelf are psychic types as well and this is national dex, where psychic types actually fear dark types, and every mon has access to its full toolkit.
"Keep the mon that will die to espeed, in on espeed” — Which is it? Do you swap to the "tank" or give it a free turn? What type of dnite is it? Is it clicking frustration?
Now that is dragonite's affairs out of the way.
If it's meant to be banned, it will be. That aside...
Switch it in just fine, eh? Ok so, Great Tusk comes in ... takes 73% ... what will regieleki click next? Does tusk have a priority ground type move? And as mention before, -ate eleki tends to carry the z move ...
Is this the logic you are basing the dragonite stance on? As in, because it cannot purely OHKO the absolute thickest mons with maximum hp and def stats with espeed ... it is therefore healthy?
You are not taking 30%. 30% is near the bare minimum and is for the initial thunderbolt. You are taking 30 to 35 plus whatever move regieleki clicks next. Eleki doesn't have to switch out ... you do. And there are thunder cagers running around. If it just clicks bolt twice (especially if you u turn) ... You've taken 60-70% Hp and cannot reenter on it safely. Which again, it how you counter regen mons.
And isn't manaphy supposed to be Max Defense? For the dragonite? (How many dragonite "checks" are supposed to be ran on a single team? Dragonite doesn't exist in a vacuum.)
252 SpA Regieleki Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Manaphy: 164-194 (40.5 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Supercell Slam is a legitimate move ran by eleki and multiple other pokemon. Calling it a troll pick is like calling high jump kick a troll pick.
So yeah, ban dragonite ... —ate regieleki is not weak. I believe that covers everything. See you all next vote (...not).
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AAA National Dex Almost Any Ability
- Thread starter LordBox
- Start date
I do think this sums it up quite nicely, but i do want to add on the fact that 4 of the checks Glalie mentioned were weak to, or 4x weak to in perts case, grass. Yeah grass isnt the best type offensively but if your carrying at least 2 of these checks your defensive core gets beat by a simple SOR Meows, which isnt an uncommon, or bad, set. if you choose 3, or dont bring mew, then a strong, offensive grass type, like the aforementioned meows, or a MGLO Electrode-hisui, tears your defensive core apart too. Dragonite's extreme speed paired with a good grass type has already steamrolled through the team.
I appreciate the kind regard to my statement. Starting to notice a lot of Mold Breaker lately, not gonna be surprised if I start seeing ability shields lying around
This thread has certainly been busy with activity with the monthly ladder and while I would normally make a dump after NDOTSL (though I did fail to do so last NDOTSL...) given the discussion in the thread I thought it'd be best to share some of my thoughts as a council member on some of the seemingly controversial mons after having played some ladder for myself.
The main Big Bad of the thread. Certainly I expected Dragonite to be controversial and it quite rightfully is given its history having been banned in pastgens and successfully suspected twice out of SVAAA (though by fairly slim margins both times). For now I believe that Dragonite remains a net positive in the tier and I don't think it's outright broken at all given the options to check it but whether it's a healthy presence is certainly worth discussing.
For what it brings, it adds excellent defensive compression for many teams with its typing with its Fire-Water resists and Ground immunity as well as giving a strong speed control option for a lot of teams which is really crucial given the amount of offensive bullshit that Natdex often entails (and yes I think punishing very poorly made 6 offensive mon spam teams is a good thing) of course the main issue lies in how strong of a speed control mon it really is.
I think most of the defensive checks are fairly solid versus Dragonite in the short-mid term, it certainly does have a lot of coverage moves available in its arsenal but in reality it can be far more limited by what it can realistically bring vs most teams and how it plays in practice and you don't have to go too far to add other soft-checks because 2AC helps a lot compared to SV's 1AC in juggling and containing Dragonite (note a core difference between Dragonite in SV and here in Natdex for those that ask why it isn't banned and remember the suspect votes were close).
My personal favourites have been Boots/LO mixed 3a Roost variants though I could see Choice Band as well as that can somewhat help break its more sturdy neutral checks (Mew, Pecharunt, physdef Regens such as Tapu Fini, Ting-Lu, Manaphy, Swampert, etc*) but Choice Band lacks longevity and can be more easily juggled around with resists which are commonplace. But really they can all struggle in forcing out and breaking most the checks. No Ice moves struggles greatly into Gliscor, Thunderbolt can only really hit Corviknight and it still doesn't take that much unless you're LO and hitting it on the prediction and EE Steels are a great struggle for most Dragonite while using Return/DEdge doubles up on losing to any Flying resist (And even with its coverage it often needs to predict/chip to break them). It can struggle to force things out at times if not amped, eg Tusk while not a hard check to Dragonite but being able to stay in on an ESpeed and threaten Ice Spinner does limit Dragonite's opportunity and stacking soft checks are viable ways to check a mon, similar for other Regen mons even if they can be put close into range like SpD Regen mons. Hardly ever is Dragonite actually getting these plays for momentum freely due to its lack of boots especially if you're LO which I find pretty necessary for any mixed variants and very often Dragonite needs to predict around its resists and get its predicts wrong resulting in minimal damage.
Of course most of these checks are fairly defensive (though note even BO/Offense shouldn't mean slap 4 or 5 offensive mons and a lead, especially in a 2AC meta) the main issue I find with Dragonite is how hard it can strain BO/offensive teams. For now, there are certainly still options such as Pecharunt, Tapu Koko, Gholdengo, Zapdos, Psychic Surge Azelf and stacking other soft checks but they can be pressured or limited on offense and teams bar the very bulky cannot ever disrespect a Dragonite and thus can force far more caution especially those with far more loosely built defensive cores. For now I believe it remains at an acceptable level with the counterplay and various options offensive teams are offered by the Natdex pool of mons that lets the archetype still be fine and with the necessity of strong speed control for most teams regardless so you cannot carelessly build most teams without a defensive core anyway bar Webs (which deservingly should be punished fuck that archetype).
Regarding some more specific points in the thread. Physdef Swampert is a pretty viable mon (one I've run on several teams and I'm pretty sure is on a sample even if old) as this isn't SV and we have 2AC so you are pretty more freely able to experiment with your sets (and Vest SpD still can dissuade it as it isn't entirely free entry with IBeam). Manaphy very often Assault Vest and Physdef EVs (see Betticus's game, see SVAAA) and pretty rarely run Volt Absorb Leftovers so Thunderbolt isn't threatening (also the Dragonite is max SpA which is a bit odd anyway and it doesn't even 2HKO). Fini trading Moonblast into damage can be acceptable for most teams as it's pretty rare Fini is your only defensive check with no resists otherwise especially when it's not Boots.
I think saying Dragonite is also broken because X breaker can kill the mon is a somewhat poor argument as you can apply that to every wallbreaker in the metagame and ignores that these mons can also have other mons backing the defensive core (eg a Fini/Mana core is very often going to have some outs if not a hard check to Grass types because you know it loses to those mons). As for so called wallbreakers/stallbreakers they often need support as well and it's not like Dragonite especially creates much opportunity for those mons either without pivot. You could certainly argue that Dragonite can pressure people to be far more cautious with their defensive checks given its priority move though.
TLDR; I don't think Dragonite is outright broken with its myriad of defensive checks both hard and soft checks (Pecharunt, Mew, Zapdos, Psysurge, Ting-Lu, Swampert, Manaphy, Corviknight, Gliscor, Tapu Koko, Gholdengo and so forth) Some can struggle a bit with the different sets like Mixed or Band both but those often need strong prediction and often forgo Boots to make it a far harder mon to use in practice. Unhealthy for its effects on offense/BO and forcing tighter defensive cores/soft checks given its priority? Definitely to a degree but it has its merits with its defensive and speed control compression against offense/BO which I still think has counterplay.
I could see Dragonite going and the metagame going especially when the metagame settles into a more balanced state but any action will likely be conducted after NDAMPL or AAAPL as Dragonite is not outright broken or impossible to check and offense I believe still has quite a few options to tackle the beast especially with how it potent it can be.
Walking Wake while not being the centre of most discussion here in the thread (it doesn't have the speed tier to rip apart most of the offense-spam you often see after all) I have seen some discussion in Discord and it's an interesting mon so I'll drop my thoughts because why not. Its strength is certainly something to behold on Specs with the usual set being PrimSea Specs as it holds quite astonishing power with the fairly spammable WBall while holding Specs Draco for the usual Water resists like Roaring Moon alongside Knock Off to weaken RegenVests/Blissey to eventually cleave through if it cant do so immediately. Even Scarf you still have to respect as a cleaner greatly if you let your checks get too low.
For now I think Wake while a very strong breaker is mostly balanced in the tier. Its speed tier while good is not so overwhelmingly fast to make offensive counterplay impossible and lets its have more flexible counterplay on more loosely constructed offense/BO. Even though it has pretty raw immense power it still often finds it needs to get turns right with Knock Off/support and can be played around with resists at times such as the abundant Dragon like RMoon/DNite (even if at good cost) as RegenVests like Manaphy, Hands, Meloetta, Swamp and Blissey/Ferro can still switch in and check it at full (though barely for the more fragile Swampert) and softer checks such as Desolate Land Moltres/Moth, Tapu Fini are prevalent in the meta and it isn't a mindless mon for the user against most teams. In the long-term it might be one of the most difficult to check but for now I think that's acceptable enough but I could change my mind if the tier becomes more balanced.
Another controversial mon from another AAA meta... aren't we 3 for 3 now? As for my view I think the mon is overall somewhat unhealthy though I could never say it is outright broken since the checks to the mon are widespread and diverse even despite the coverage the mon gets. Shift Gear sets are certainly the most annoying since they can boost up to +2 and threaten to sweep cores but using Shift Gear often gives up coverage of the consistency of U-turn which is a pretty big sacrifice. Often these sets whether Tinted, SFLO, -Ate or whatever it be it really struggle into most defensive sets. SFLO gets eaten up by the majority of RegenVests bar Blissey with SFLO IHead, Tinted lacks amp and can struggle into most defensive walls especially those with amplification like Intimidate/Fluffy (Mew, Gliscor, Corviknight, Mana, Swamp, Pecharunt, Hands) and can even struggle to OHKO some offensive threats when set up (eg Wake). Explosion is funny but obviously has drawbacks and can still fail to OHKO stuff and its speed tier means it can find it pretty hard to set up. Serene Grace is annoying but one RHelmet or Regen like Velcroc pointed out or like just getting not getting abysmal luck usually makes it fine. Still I think I wouldn't mind it if it was gone (though I would be sad about losing RegenScarf) but it doesn't seem very pressing a concern to me.
I am surprised to find that there is discourse around this mon at all, or at least towards sets that are not Hadron Engine as -Ate Eleki is about borderline usable and I'm only really giving it credit and having it on the VR because Atha did shill for this mon at a point in time (I think?).
Firstly, addressing Hadron Engine, Hadron Engine + RVolt can be extremely powerful (it was on the watchlist, and has been for a long time now due to this fact). For now it's managed to stay legal as the checks for its abusers remain still fairly similar without Regen though perhaps bar a few of the more neutral checks such as Blissey and Meloetta and most of the abusers I hold in regard (Thundurus formes, Raikou, Tapu Koko) have coverage that let him hit Ground-types and such can force more pressure in the builder. Regieleki however while a lot faster than these mons meaning offensive counterplay is a lot more loose literally has zero coverage and thus cannot hit Ground-types at all. I find this makes the comparisons to Dracovish while similar in theory a lot different as Dracovish's checks were highly limited to the few Water Absorb pokemon in the tier while Ground-types are extremely abundant and are just a natural typing (and to add onto that you even have Volt Absorb, GSurge/Psysurge or even resist RegenVests like RMoon or scarfers that are still faster like RMoon/Meow or even stuff like Latios/Wake if you're not +Spe). Still I can understand the frustation but the frustation deserves more towards Hadron Engine as a whole, not Eleki (and really I don't think Eleki is the most problematic abuser regardless).
Now addressing -Ate sets, to me -Ate sets are abysmally weak even when you leverage its speed effectively. Nothing showcases this better than Modest Max Spa -Ate SE boosted Tera blast failing to OHKO a physdef Tusk... the mon with rather infamously low special bulk. Sure you're not answering Regieleki with it but it's really pathetic it fails to even force out a frail physical defensive mon and it even means you cant freely click Volt Switch as the Tusk user can legitimately make a play to block it with their Tusk. The calcs where it fails to even 2HKO a physically bulky RegenVest Manaphy also seem rather to prove how weak Regieleki really is when you cant even force out Manaphy and it can really easily pivot on you especially if it comes in your -Ate move. It is practically a lot weaker than even the standard tiers as it doesn't have Transistor and it doesn't have Tera to gain STAB on its coverage while everything is bulkier and far meaner in this tier. Even something typically fragile like Tapu Lele can afford to stay in and not care. I think HJK also is a poor analogy to justify Supercell Slam as HJK is indeed often rarely used over CC since the missing chance is fatal and Supercell Slam is even weaker than HJK while Grounds are a common check. Either way it seems to struggles greatly into most neutrals walls and if it meets a resist such as Ferrothorn or any Vabs mon then it mainly just becomes an unreliable spinner or momentum sap that can Explode. As such I don't believe -Ate Eleki makes of a difference in how Eleki should be judged especially given it's obvious whether it's -Ate or Hadron Engine so it introduces little variety or uncertainity.
2AC is one of the biggest complaints I've seen (this generation and past-so) (s/o Atha) and I've also heard those who decry why the clause is even in effect for the NatDex meta while SV has 1AC. I think it should be firstly noted that 1AC has been the exception when it comes to AAA metagames (though given ORAS/USUM were somewhat dubiously tiered) and SV is the first generation to try 1AC. SV has remaining in 1AC was not a particularly unanimous decision and the meta has remained in 1AC partly due to satisfaction with the current state and the great time that has elapsed in this generation already, not particularly out of the failings of 2AC. (There is a very long argument I could make for it in SV still but that is mostly irrelevant to this) NatDex was also originally 1AC very early on into the meta but switched to 2AC. The main reasoning behind this decision was frankly out of curiosity but also because it could help defensive cores be more stable with the expanded offensive tools of NatDex. I still believe that this decision was mostly correct given the still many threats and various tools that exist to be able to break through double Regen cores that so many despise. I can understand the merits of 1AC driving a more offensive metagame and in a way "diverse" metagame and I was interested and still am interested in 1AC as a possibility though this late into the generation does deter me a bit. If there is a time for a significant a change as 1AC it will probably be after this NDAMPL and AAAPL/SSNL where people will be able to gauge their overall thoughts on the metagame but for now there is no immediate action planned for 2AC.
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Now that my spiel is over I do encourage that discussion in this thread and post remains civil, open-minded and tries to actually make productive conversation (if it's a one-liner it would probably be better suited to discussion or questions in the Discord which you're always free to join). I unfortunately wont be discussing any more interesting sets as NDAMPL is still ongoing but I look forward to discussion once it and possibly AAAPL also ends, as for now I hope this does help to clarify the position you have on some of these controversial mons.
The main Big Bad of the thread. Certainly I expected Dragonite to be controversial and it quite rightfully is given its history having been banned in pastgens and successfully suspected twice out of SVAAA (though by fairly slim margins both times). For now I believe that Dragonite remains a net positive in the tier and I don't think it's outright broken at all given the options to check it but whether it's a healthy presence is certainly worth discussing.
For what it brings, it adds excellent defensive compression for many teams with its typing with its Fire-Water resists and Ground immunity as well as giving a strong speed control option for a lot of teams which is really crucial given the amount of offensive bullshit that Natdex often entails (and yes I think punishing very poorly made 6 offensive mon spam teams is a good thing) of course the main issue lies in how strong of a speed control mon it really is.
I think most of the defensive checks are fairly solid versus Dragonite in the short-mid term, it certainly does have a lot of coverage moves available in its arsenal but in reality it can be far more limited by what it can realistically bring vs most teams and how it plays in practice and you don't have to go too far to add other soft-checks because 2AC helps a lot compared to SV's 1AC in juggling and containing Dragonite (note a core difference between Dragonite in SV and here in Natdex for those that ask why it isn't banned and remember the suspect votes were close).
My personal favourites have been Boots/LO mixed 3a Roost variants though I could see Choice Band as well as that can somewhat help break its more sturdy neutral checks (Mew, Pecharunt, physdef Regens such as Tapu Fini, Ting-Lu, Manaphy, Swampert, etc*) but Choice Band lacks longevity and can be more easily juggled around with resists which are commonplace. But really they can all struggle in forcing out and breaking most the checks. No Ice moves struggles greatly into Gliscor, Thunderbolt can only really hit Corviknight and it still doesn't take that much unless you're LO and hitting it on the prediction and EE Steels are a great struggle for most Dragonite while using Return/DEdge doubles up on losing to any Flying resist (And even with its coverage it often needs to predict/chip to break them). It can struggle to force things out at times if not amped, eg Tusk while not a hard check to Dragonite but being able to stay in on an ESpeed and threaten Ice Spinner does limit Dragonite's opportunity and stacking soft checks are viable ways to check a mon, similar for other Regen mons even if they can be put close into range like SpD Regen mons. Hardly ever is Dragonite actually getting these plays for momentum freely due to its lack of boots especially if you're LO which I find pretty necessary for any mixed variants and very often Dragonite needs to predict around its resists and get its predicts wrong resulting in minimal damage.
Of course most of these checks are fairly defensive (though note even BO/Offense shouldn't mean slap 4 or 5 offensive mons and a lead, especially in a 2AC meta) the main issue I find with Dragonite is how hard it can strain BO/offensive teams. For now, there are certainly still options such as Pecharunt, Tapu Koko, Gholdengo, Zapdos, Psychic Surge Azelf and stacking other soft checks but they can be pressured or limited on offense and teams bar the very bulky cannot ever disrespect a Dragonite and thus can force far more caution especially those with far more loosely built defensive cores. For now I believe it remains at an acceptable level with the counterplay and various options offensive teams are offered by the Natdex pool of mons that lets the archetype still be fine and with the necessity of strong speed control for most teams regardless so you cannot carelessly build most teams without a defensive core anyway bar Webs (which deservingly should be punished fuck that archetype).
Regarding some more specific points in the thread. Physdef Swampert is a pretty viable mon (one I've run on several teams and I'm pretty sure is on a sample even if old) as this isn't SV and we have 2AC so you are pretty more freely able to experiment with your sets (and Vest SpD still can dissuade it as it isn't entirely free entry with IBeam). Manaphy very often Assault Vest and Physdef EVs (see Betticus's game, see SVAAA) and pretty rarely run Volt Absorb Leftovers so Thunderbolt isn't threatening (also the Dragonite is max SpA which is a bit odd anyway and it doesn't even 2HKO). Fini trading Moonblast into damage can be acceptable for most teams as it's pretty rare Fini is your only defensive check with no resists otherwise especially when it's not Boots.
I think saying Dragonite is also broken because X breaker can kill the mon is a somewhat poor argument as you can apply that to every wallbreaker in the metagame and ignores that these mons can also have other mons backing the defensive core (eg a Fini/Mana core is very often going to have some outs if not a hard check to Grass types because you know it loses to those mons). As for so called wallbreakers/stallbreakers they often need support as well and it's not like Dragonite especially creates much opportunity for those mons either without pivot. You could certainly argue that Dragonite can pressure people to be far more cautious with their defensive checks given its priority move though.
TLDR; I don't think Dragonite is outright broken with its myriad of defensive checks both hard and soft checks (Pecharunt, Mew, Zapdos, Psysurge, Ting-Lu, Swampert, Manaphy, Corviknight, Gliscor, Tapu Koko, Gholdengo and so forth) Some can struggle a bit with the different sets like Mixed or Band both but those often need strong prediction and often forgo Boots to make it a far harder mon to use in practice. Unhealthy for its effects on offense/BO and forcing tighter defensive cores/soft checks given its priority? Definitely to a degree but it has its merits with its defensive and speed control compression against offense/BO which I still think has counterplay.
I could see Dragonite going and the metagame going especially when the metagame settles into a more balanced state but any action will likely be conducted after NDAMPL or AAAPL as Dragonite is not outright broken or impossible to check and offense I believe still has quite a few options to tackle the beast especially with how it potent it can be.
Walking Wake while not being the centre of most discussion here in the thread (it doesn't have the speed tier to rip apart most of the offense-spam you often see after all) I have seen some discussion in Discord and it's an interesting mon so I'll drop my thoughts because why not. Its strength is certainly something to behold on Specs with the usual set being PrimSea Specs as it holds quite astonishing power with the fairly spammable WBall while holding Specs Draco for the usual Water resists like Roaring Moon alongside Knock Off to weaken RegenVests/Blissey to eventually cleave through if it cant do so immediately. Even Scarf you still have to respect as a cleaner greatly if you let your checks get too low.
For now I think Wake while a very strong breaker is mostly balanced in the tier. Its speed tier while good is not so overwhelmingly fast to make offensive counterplay impossible and lets its have more flexible counterplay on more loosely constructed offense/BO. Even though it has pretty raw immense power it still often finds it needs to get turns right with Knock Off/support and can be played around with resists at times such as the abundant Dragon like RMoon/DNite (even if at good cost) as RegenVests like Manaphy, Hands, Meloetta, Swamp and Blissey/Ferro can still switch in and check it at full (though barely for the more fragile Swampert) and softer checks such as Desolate Land Moltres/Moth, Tapu Fini are prevalent in the meta and it isn't a mindless mon for the user against most teams. In the long-term it might be one of the most difficult to check but for now I think that's acceptable enough but I could change my mind if the tier becomes more balanced.
Another controversial mon from another AAA meta... aren't we 3 for 3 now? As for my view I think the mon is overall somewhat unhealthy though I could never say it is outright broken since the checks to the mon are widespread and diverse even despite the coverage the mon gets. Shift Gear sets are certainly the most annoying since they can boost up to +2 and threaten to sweep cores but using Shift Gear often gives up coverage of the consistency of U-turn which is a pretty big sacrifice. Often these sets whether Tinted, SFLO, -Ate or whatever it be it really struggle into most defensive sets. SFLO gets eaten up by the majority of RegenVests bar Blissey with SFLO IHead, Tinted lacks amp and can struggle into most defensive walls especially those with amplification like Intimidate/Fluffy (Mew, Gliscor, Corviknight, Mana, Swamp, Pecharunt, Hands) and can even struggle to OHKO some offensive threats when set up (eg Wake). Explosion is funny but obviously has drawbacks and can still fail to OHKO stuff and its speed tier means it can find it pretty hard to set up. Serene Grace is annoying but one RHelmet or Regen like Velcroc pointed out or like just getting not getting abysmal luck usually makes it fine. Still I think I wouldn't mind it if it was gone (though I would be sad about losing RegenScarf) but it doesn't seem very pressing a concern to me.
I am surprised to find that there is discourse around this mon at all, or at least towards sets that are not Hadron Engine as -Ate Eleki is about borderline usable and I'm only really giving it credit and having it on the VR because Atha did shill for this mon at a point in time (I think?).
Firstly, addressing Hadron Engine, Hadron Engine + RVolt can be extremely powerful (it was on the watchlist, and has been for a long time now due to this fact). For now it's managed to stay legal as the checks for its abusers remain still fairly similar without Regen though perhaps bar a few of the more neutral checks such as Blissey and Meloetta and most of the abusers I hold in regard (Thundurus formes, Raikou, Tapu Koko) have coverage that let him hit Ground-types and such can force more pressure in the builder. Regieleki however while a lot faster than these mons meaning offensive counterplay is a lot more loose literally has zero coverage and thus cannot hit Ground-types at all. I find this makes the comparisons to Dracovish while similar in theory a lot different as Dracovish's checks were highly limited to the few Water Absorb pokemon in the tier while Ground-types are extremely abundant and are just a natural typing (and to add onto that you even have Volt Absorb, GSurge/Psysurge or even resist RegenVests like RMoon or scarfers that are still faster like RMoon/Meow or even stuff like Latios/Wake if you're not +Spe). Still I can understand the frustation but the frustation deserves more towards Hadron Engine as a whole, not Eleki (and really I don't think Eleki is the most problematic abuser regardless).
Now addressing -Ate sets, to me -Ate sets are abysmally weak even when you leverage its speed effectively. Nothing showcases this better than Modest Max Spa -Ate SE boosted Tera blast failing to OHKO a physdef Tusk... the mon with rather infamously low special bulk. Sure you're not answering Regieleki with it but it's really pathetic it fails to even force out a frail physical defensive mon and it even means you cant freely click Volt Switch as the Tusk user can legitimately make a play to block it with their Tusk. The calcs where it fails to even 2HKO a physically bulky RegenVest Manaphy also seem rather to prove how weak Regieleki really is when you cant even force out Manaphy and it can really easily pivot on you especially if it comes in your -Ate move. It is practically a lot weaker than even the standard tiers as it doesn't have Transistor and it doesn't have Tera to gain STAB on its coverage while everything is bulkier and far meaner in this tier. Even something typically fragile like Tapu Lele can afford to stay in and not care. I think HJK also is a poor analogy to justify Supercell Slam as HJK is indeed often rarely used over CC since the missing chance is fatal and Supercell Slam is even weaker than HJK while Grounds are a common check. Either way it seems to struggles greatly into most neutrals walls and if it meets a resist such as Ferrothorn or any Vabs mon then it mainly just becomes an unreliable spinner or momentum sap that can Explode. As such I don't believe -Ate Eleki makes of a difference in how Eleki should be judged especially given it's obvious whether it's -Ate or Hadron Engine so it introduces little variety or uncertainity.
2AC is one of the biggest complaints I've seen (this generation and past-so) (s/o Atha) and I've also heard those who decry why the clause is even in effect for the NatDex meta while SV has 1AC. I think it should be firstly noted that 1AC has been the exception when it comes to AAA metagames (though given ORAS/USUM were somewhat dubiously tiered) and SV is the first generation to try 1AC. SV has remaining in 1AC was not a particularly unanimous decision and the meta has remained in 1AC partly due to satisfaction with the current state and the great time that has elapsed in this generation already, not particularly out of the failings of 2AC. (There is a very long argument I could make for it in SV still but that is mostly irrelevant to this) NatDex was also originally 1AC very early on into the meta but switched to 2AC. The main reasoning behind this decision was frankly out of curiosity but also because it could help defensive cores be more stable with the expanded offensive tools of NatDex. I still believe that this decision was mostly correct given the still many threats and various tools that exist to be able to break through double Regen cores that so many despise. I can understand the merits of 1AC driving a more offensive metagame and in a way "diverse" metagame and I was interested and still am interested in 1AC as a possibility though this late into the generation does deter me a bit. If there is a time for a significant a change as 1AC it will probably be after this NDAMPL and AAAPL/SSNL where people will be able to gauge their overall thoughts on the metagame but for now there is no immediate action planned for 2AC.
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Now that my spiel is over I do encourage that discussion in this thread and post remains civil, open-minded and tries to actually make productive conversation (if it's a one-liner it would probably be better suited to discussion or questions in the Discord which you're always free to join). I unfortunately wont be discussing any more interesting sets as NDAMPL is still ongoing but I look forward to discussion once it and possibly AAAPL also ends, as for now I hope this does help to clarify the position you have on some of these controversial mons.
No no, what's being said is dragonite has a +2 priority stab move that hit harder than a facade and nearing Z-moves/self destruct.
80 x 1.2 x. 1.2 x 1.5 = 172.8 base power on top of 130 base attack coming at you with +2 priority.
Yes, every wallbreaker can kill X mon, but they are often laughably slow. The ones that do have priority have priority moves that don't exceed 40 base power (mach punch, bullet punch, aqua jet, shadow sneak). Sucker punch and thunderclap are 2 conditional moves and aren't boosted by anything on them. And the pokemon that have them have weaker base stats.
Bisharp sucker punch with black glasses: 126 power
Swords danced glasses sucker punch: 252
Dragonite Espeed with beak: 172.8
Dragon danced beak espeed: 259.2
Bisharp is weaker in power and stats, no faster, and sucker punch has very clear drawbacks. Fails under multiple conditions.
Entei has to lock itself into a move to even get close to that power. 80 x 1.2 x 1.5 = 144 base power.
Dragonite that isn't locked: 172.8
Dragonite is a wallbreaker with a priority move that exceeds almost every other, it doesn't have to lock itself into it like Entei, and can boost both its speed and power along side it.
It has its own stats with a 172.8 +2 priority move on speed dial. I think the priority part is being heavily glossed over in that statement. It's a priority move that is this strong, not a regular move. And aerialate doesn't only just dragonite's E-speed.
I don't consider Dragonite much of a wallbreaker since it has many neutral checks and resists in the tier which I mentioned (consider Aerilate is only a 1.2x boost to a normal move compared to the usual 1.33x boost of other amps avaliable in the meta), also your Bisharp comparison isn't entirely great since Bisharp in this metagame can also use Adaptability which will 1.33xx the power of the move. I should probably also clarify that statement meant to say can kill X mon that checks Dragonite (referring to the HElectrode/Meow pairing)
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I do understand a lot of the things said on dragonite, but if the Suspect for SVAAA were that close, then surely its worth a suspect in NDAAA, to let the community decide whether or not it should stayThis thread has certainly been busy with activity with the monthly ladder and while I would normally make a dump after NDOTSL (though I did fail to do so last NDOTSL...) given the discussion in the thread I thought it'd be best to share some of my thoughts as a council member on some of the seemingly controversial mons after having played some ladder for myself.
The main Big Bad of the thread. Certainly I expected Dragonite to be controversial and it quite rightfully is given its history having been banned in pastgens and successfully suspected twice out of SVAAA (though by fairly slim margins both times). For now I believe that Dragonite remains a net positive in the tier and I don't think it's outright broken at all given the options to check it but whether it's a healthy presence is certainly worth discussing.
For what it brings, it adds excellent defensive compression for many teams with its typing with its Fire-Water resists and Ground immunity as well as giving a strong speed control option for a lot of teams which is really crucial given the amount of offensive bullshit that Natdex often entails (and yes I think punishing very poorly made 6 offensive mon spam teams is a good thing) of course the main issue lies in how strong of a speed control mon it really is.
I think most of the defensive checks are fairly solid versus Dragonite in the short-mid term, it certainly does have a lot of coverage moves available in its arsenal but in reality it can be far more limited by what it can realistically bring vs most teams and how it plays in practice and you don't have to go too far to add other soft-checks because 2AC helps a lot compared to SV's 1AC in juggling and containing Dragonite (note a core difference between Dragonite in SV and here in Natdex for those that ask why it isn't banned and remember the suspect votes were close).
My personal favourites have been Boots/LO mixed 3a Roost variants though I could see Choice Band as well as that can somewhat help break its more sturdy neutral checks (Mew, Pecharunt, physdef Regens such as Tapu Fini, Ting-Lu, Manaphy, Swampert, etc*) but Choice Band lacks longevity and can be more easily juggled around with resists which are commonplace. But really they can all struggle in forcing out and breaking most the checks. No Ice moves struggles greatly into Gliscor, Thunderbolt can only really hit Corviknight and it still doesn't take that much unless you're LO and hitting it on the prediction and EE Steels are a great struggle for most Dragonite while using Return/DEdge doubles up on losing to any Flying resist (And even with its coverage it often needs to predict/chip to break them). It can struggle to force things out at times if not amped, eg Tusk while not a hard check to Dragonite but being able to stay in on an ESpeed and threaten Ice Spinner does limit Dragonite's opportunity and stacking soft checks are viable ways to check a mon, similar for other Regen mons even if they can be put close into range like SpD Regen mons. Hardly ever is Dragonite actually getting these plays for momentum freely due to its lack of boots especially if you're LO which I find pretty necessary for any mixed variants and very often Dragonite needs to predict around its resists and get its predicts wrong resulting in minimal damage.
Of course most of these checks are fairly defensive (though note even BO/Offense shouldn't mean slap 4 or 5 offensive mons and a lead, especially in a 2AC meta) the main issue I find with Dragonite is how hard it can strain BO/offensive teams. For now, there are certainly still options such as Pecharunt, Tapu Koko, Gholdengo, Zapdos, Psychic Surge Azelf and stacking other soft checks but they can be pressured or limited on offense and teams bar the very bulky cannot ever disrespect a Dragonite and thus can force far more caution especially those with far more loosely built defensive cores. For now I believe it remains at an acceptable level with the counterplay and various options offensive teams are offered by the Natdex pool of mons that lets the archetype still be fine and with the necessity of strong speed control for most teams regardless so you cannot carelessly build most teams without a defensive core anyway bar Webs (which deservingly should be punished fuck that archetype).
Regarding some more specific points in the thread. Physdef Swampert is a pretty viable mon (one I've run on several teams and I'm pretty sure is on a sample even if old) as this isn't SV and we have 2AC so you are pretty more freely able to experiment with your sets (and Vest SpD still can dissuade it as it isn't entirely free entry with IBeam). Manaphy very often Assault Vest and Physdef EVs (see Betticus's game, see SVAAA) and pretty rarely run Volt Absorb Leftovers so Thunderbolt isn't threatening (also the Dragonite is max SpA which is a bit odd anyway and it doesn't even 2HKO). Fini trading Moonblast into damage can be acceptable for most teams as it's pretty rare Fini is your only defensive check with no resists otherwise especially when it's not Boots.
I think saying Dragonite is also broken because X breaker can kill the mon is a somewhat poor argument as you can apply that to every wallbreaker in the metagame and ignores that these mons can also have other mons backing the defensive core (eg a Fini/Mana core is very often going to have some outs if not a hard check to Grass types because you know it loses to those mons). As for so called wallbreakers/stallbreakers they often need support as well and it's not like Dragonite especially creates much opportunity for those mons either without pivot. You could certainly argue that Dragonite can pressure people to be far more cautious with their defensive checks given its priority move though.
TLDR; I don't think Dragonite is outright broken with its myriad of defensive checks both hard and soft checks (Pecharunt, Mew, Zapdos, Psysurge, Ting-Lu, Swampert, Manaphy, Corviknight, Gliscor, Tapu Koko, Gholdengo and so forth) Some can struggle a bit with the different sets like Mixed or Band both but those often need strong prediction and often forgo Boots to make it a far harder mon to use in practice. Unhealthy for its effects on offense/BO and forcing tighter defensive cores/soft checks given its priority? Definitely to a degree but it has its merits with its defensive and speed control compression against offense/BO which I still think has counterplay.
I could see Dragonite going and the metagame going especially when the metagame settles into a more balanced state but any action will likely be conducted after NDAMPL or AAAPL as Dragonite is not outright broken or impossible to check and offense I believe still has quite a few options to tackle the beast especially with how it potent it can be.
Walking Wake while not being the centre of most discussion here in the thread (it doesn't have the speed tier to rip apart most of the offense-spam you often see after all) I have seen some discussion in Discord and it's an interesting mon so I'll drop my thoughts because why not. Its strength is certainly something to behold on Specs with the usual set being PrimSea Specs as it holds quite astonishing power with the fairly spammable WBall while holding Specs Draco for the usual Water resists like Roaring Moon alongside Knock Off to weaken RegenVests/Blissey to eventually cleave through if it cant do so immediately. Even Scarf you still have to respect as a cleaner greatly if you let your checks get too low.
For now I think Wake while a very strong breaker is mostly balanced in the tier. Its speed tier while good is not so overwhelmingly fast to make offensive counterplay impossible and lets its have more flexible counterplay on more loosely constructed offense/BO. Even though it has pretty raw immense power it still often finds it needs to get turns right with Knock Off/support and can be played around with resists at times such as the abundant Dragon like RMoon/DNite (even if at good cost) as RegenVests like Manaphy, Hands, Meloetta, Swamp and Blissey/Ferro can still switch in and check it at full (though barely for the more fragile Swampert) and softer checks such as Desolate Land Moltres/Moth, Tapu Fini are prevalent in the meta and it isn't a mindless mon for the user against most teams. In the long-term it might be one of the most difficult to check but for now I think that's acceptable enough but I could change my mind if the tier becomes more balanced.
Another controversial mon from another AAA meta... aren't we 3 for 3 now? As for my view I think the mon is overall somewhat unhealthy though I could never say it is outright broken since the checks to the mon are widespread and diverse even despite the coverage the mon gets. Shift Gear sets are certainly the most annoying since they can boost up to +2 and threaten to sweep cores but using Shift Gear often gives up coverage of the consistency of U-turn which is a pretty big sacrifice. Often these sets whether Tinted, SFLO, -Ate or whatever it be it really struggle into most defensive sets. SFLO gets eaten up by the majority of RegenVests bar Blissey with SFLO IHead, Tinted lacks amp and can struggle into most defensive walls especially those with amplification like Intimidate/Fluffy (Mew, Gliscor, Corviknight, Mana, Swamp, Pecharunt, Hands) and can even struggle to OHKO some offensive threats when set up (eg Wake). Explosion is funny but obviously has drawbacks and can still fail to OHKO stuff and its speed tier means it can find it pretty hard to set up. Serene Grace is annoying but one RHelmet or Regen like Velcroc pointed out or like just getting not getting abysmal luck usually makes it fine. Still I think I wouldn't mind it if it was gone (though I would be sad about losing RegenScarf) but it doesn't seem very pressing a concern to me.
I am surprised to find that there is discourse around this mon at all, or at least towards sets that are not Hadron Engine as -Ate Eleki is about borderline usable and I'm only really giving it credit and having it on the VR because Atha did shill for this mon at a point in time (I think?).
Firstly, addressing Hadron Engine, Hadron Engine + RVolt can be extremely powerful (it was on the watchlist, and has been for a long time now due to this fact). For now it's managed to stay legal as the checks for its abusers remain still fairly similar without Regen though perhaps bar a few of the more neutral checks such as Blissey and Meloetta and most of the abusers I hold in regard (Thundurus formes, Raikou, Tapu Koko) have coverage that let him hit Ground-types and such can force more pressure in the builder. Regieleki however while a lot faster than these mons meaning offensive counterplay is a lot more loose literally has zero coverage and thus cannot hit Ground-types at all. I find this makes the comparisons to Dracovish while similar in theory a lot different as Dracovish's checks were highly limited to the few Water Absorb pokemon in the tier while Ground-types are extremely abundant and are just a natural typing (and to add onto that you even have Volt Absorb, GSurge/Psysurge or even resist RegenVests like RMoon or scarfers that are still faster like RMoon/Meow or even stuff like Latios/Wake if you're not +Spe). Still I can understand the frustation but the frustation deserves more towards Hadron Engine as a whole, not Eleki (and really I don't think Eleki is the most problematic abuser regardless).
Now addressing -Ate sets, to me -Ate sets are abysmally weak even when you leverage its speed effectively. Nothing showcases this better than Modest Max Spa -Ate SE boosted Tera blast failing to OHKO a physdef Tusk... the mon with rather infamously low special bulk. Sure you're not answering Regieleki with it but it's really pathetic it fails to even force out a frail physical defensive mon and it even means you cant freely click Volt Switch as the Tusk user can legitimately make a play to block it with their Tusk. The calcs where it fails to even 2HKO a physically bulky RegenVest Manaphy also seem rather to prove how weak Regieleki really is when you cant even force out Manaphy and it can really easily pivot on you especially if it comes in your -Ate move. It is practically a lot weaker than even the standard tiers as it doesn't have Transistor and it doesn't have Tera to gain STAB on its coverage while everything is bulkier and far meaner in this tier. Even something typically fragile like Tapu Lele can afford to stay in and not care. I think HJK also is a poor analogy to justify Supercell Slam as HJK is indeed often rarely used over CC since the missing chance is fatal and Supercell Slam is even weaker than HJK while Grounds are a common check. Either way it seems to struggles greatly into most neutrals walls and if it meets a resist such as Ferrothorn or any Vabs mon then it mainly just becomes an unreliable spinner or momentum sap that can Explode. As such I don't believe -Ate Eleki makes of a difference in how Eleki should be judged especially given it's obvious whether it's -Ate or Hadron Engine so it introduces little variety or uncertainity.
2AC is one of the biggest complaints I've seen (this generation and past-so) (s/o Atha) and I've also heard those who decry why the clause is even in effect for the NatDex meta while SV has 1AC. I think it should be firstly noted that 1AC has been the exception when it comes to AAA metagames (though given ORAS/USUM were somewhat dubiously tiered) and SV is the first generation to try 1AC. SV has remaining in 1AC was not a particularly unanimous decision and the meta has remained in 1AC partly due to satisfaction with the current state and the great time that has elapsed in this generation already, not particularly out of the failings of 2AC. (There is a very long argument I could make for it in SV still but that is mostly irrelevant to this) NatDex was also originally 1AC very early on into the meta but switched to 2AC. The main reasoning behind this decision was frankly out of curiosity but also because it could help defensive cores be more stable with the expanded offensive tools of NatDex. I still believe that this decision was mostly correct given the still many threats and various tools that exist to be able to break through double Regen cores that so many despise. I can understand the merits of 1AC driving a more offensive metagame and in a way "diverse" metagame and I was interested and still am interested in 1AC as a possibility though this late into the generation does deter me a bit. If there is a time for a significant a change as 1AC it will probably be after this NDAMPL and AAAPL/SSNL where people will be able to gauge their overall thoughts on the metagame but for now there is no immediate action planned for 2AC.
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Now that my spiel is over I do encourage that discussion in this thread and post remains civil, open-minded and tries to actually make productive conversation (if it's a one-liner it would probably be better suited to discussion or questions in the Discord which you're always free to join). I unfortunately wont be discussing any more interesting sets as NDAMPL is still ongoing but I look forward to discussion once it and possibly AAAPL also ends, as for now I hope this does help to clarify the position you have on some of these controversial mons.
That logic doesn't work out because if if it was close in SVAAA, then surely it shouldn't be close to a ban decision here with so many more answers. However, it's possible that a large number of random ladder players pop out of the woodworks and sway the votes, voting with limited metagame knowledge, and prioritizing their own interests over the overall health of the metagame (like me). This is bad for a number of reason which I'm not smart enough to explain coherently, but as stated above, even if there were action taken, it would be after the tours NDAMPL and AAAPL (shifting the meta during tours is also bad), at which point there might not be even a ladder to suspect with. Also as stated above, try to avoid clogging up the forums with one liners and discuss in the discord. https://discord.gg/XW3Y2TNM
https://pokepast.es/fb15f8decc2c06d3 its a fun team i made its a hard tr team but has 2 slush rush mon to get surpirse sweep its really fun cus tr in chili get 3 ko with stakataka and still have 3-4 hail turn to get more koe obvi its not best team but concept is quite gud i would like if anyone would like to make this team better
Use Arctovish+choice band+Primadial sea in in trick room
need 1 physical and 1 special attker not get walled by 1 mon thats why i am running what i am running also bad synergy with snow
What makes Zeraora overpowered? I noticed it's banned in both standard and NatDex AAA but I couldn't figure out an immediate reason why.
immediately u can see it has rising voltage and with hadron engine it can have like such high special attk and run physical move too to ko special walls like goodra with cc
Ridiculous Speed Stat
Stab Rising Voltage
The Ability to go mixed and destroy The Regenvest Walls that would take on RV
also Knock Off
did I miss something?
cool desing too
Zapdos @ Firium Z
Ability: No Guard
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Roost
I am not great at AAA, but I had a cool set idea that I wanted to share. On No Guard Zapdos sets Zap Cannon and Hurricane are usually no brainers due to their high bp and being stab. However, the best coverage move Zapdos has is heat wave which is strong and takes some advantage of the ability to not miss but even if it was stab it is still far weaker than Zap Cannon or Hurricane. Firium Z gives that extra boost that Heat Wave needs and while it is a one-time power boost, you will probably only need it that one time as you can then spam Zap Cannon and Hurricane without having to worry about whatever electric/flying resist you just took care of.
While I am here though I must ask why is Power Construct legal on Zygarde 10%? All it takes is for Zygarde to switch in on the right target and substitute and then it just wins because Zygarde Complete is bulky as hell even in this metagame with insanely powerful pokemon like Sheer Force Tapu Lele.
Ability: No Guard
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Zap Cannon
- Hurricane
- Heat Wave
- Roost
I am not great at AAA, but I had a cool set idea that I wanted to share. On No Guard Zapdos sets Zap Cannon and Hurricane are usually no brainers due to their high bp and being stab. However, the best coverage move Zapdos has is heat wave which is strong and takes some advantage of the ability to not miss but even if it was stab it is still far weaker than Zap Cannon or Hurricane. Firium Z gives that extra boost that Heat Wave needs and while it is a one-time power boost, you will probably only need it that one time as you can then spam Zap Cannon and Hurricane without having to worry about whatever electric/flying resist you just took care of.
While I am here though I must ask why is Power Construct legal on Zygarde 10%? All it takes is for Zygarde to switch in on the right target and substitute and then it just wins because Zygarde Complete is bulky as hell even in this metagame with insanely powerful pokemon like Sheer Force Tapu Lele.
reuploading this team cus i tweaked it and i think found a rly broken mon
https://pokepast.es/55b0d64539db2483
so this looks like a hard tr with a random thundurs (also if anyone made this type of team i didnt know so dont comment its a sample team i am sry)
but its not a hard tr team and thats not a random thundurus its iron ball now what does it do it makes him grounded to get that juicy 182 base power rising voltage but it makes him slow (halves the speed stat) but it work perf here cus its a hybrid tr team so it can be a deadly attaker in tr
u maybe asking how slow is with iron ball well it hit 96 speed stat and it is actually slower than a happiny who is 30 base speed stat so basically it will outspeed any and everything in tr and u can get so many surprise koes with it cus no one expect a fucking slowking level speed tier on 101 base speed mon which it also outspeed any and every slowking if they are not absolute min min
now i previsioly had vikavolt who had similar sp attk and speed but lacked coverage (cant beat goodra) but thundurus does it easily it has grass knot for ground types focus blast for goodra and finally any move u wanna fit last i cant figure out (also i am too tired rn to figure out)
i have two tr setter porygon 2 primarily cus it can beat dnite and is strongest physical wall that set tr and can teleport and glowking while its not bulkier tr setter it has chiling reception which allow me set hail and enable iron hand and hoopa both of which outspeed everything not named electrode and belly drum iron hand can literraly end game in 9- 10 turn if oppo doesnt have weather control and hoopa is strongest sp attker i could find but stab ghost is rly gud
then their is tinted lens stakakataka which lets just say isnt star of team but takes 6 koes every game idk why is it not banned
so ye team has def weakness like overtime hazard chip and idk smth else but its a fun team atleast the ironball thundurus is cool ty
https://pokepast.es/55b0d64539db2483
so this looks like a hard tr with a random thundurs (also if anyone made this type of team i didnt know so dont comment its a sample team i am sry)
but its not a hard tr team and thats not a random thundurus its iron ball now what does it do it makes him grounded to get that juicy 182 base power rising voltage but it makes him slow (halves the speed stat) but it work perf here cus its a hybrid tr team so it can be a deadly attaker in tr
u maybe asking how slow is with iron ball well it hit 96 speed stat and it is actually slower than a happiny who is 30 base speed stat so basically it will outspeed any and everything in tr and u can get so many surprise koes with it cus no one expect a fucking slowking level speed tier on 101 base speed mon which it also outspeed any and every slowking if they are not absolute min min
now i previsioly had vikavolt who had similar sp attk and speed but lacked coverage (cant beat goodra) but thundurus does it easily it has grass knot for ground types focus blast for goodra and finally any move u wanna fit last i cant figure out (also i am too tired rn to figure out)
i have two tr setter porygon 2 primarily cus it can beat dnite and is strongest physical wall that set tr and can teleport and glowking while its not bulkier tr setter it has chiling reception which allow me set hail and enable iron hand and hoopa both of which outspeed everything not named electrode and belly drum iron hand can literraly end game in 9- 10 turn if oppo doesnt have weather control and hoopa is strongest sp attker i could find but stab ghost is rly gud
then their is tinted lens stakakataka which lets just say isnt star of team but takes 6 koes every game idk why is it not banned
so ye team has def weakness like overtime hazard chip and idk smth else but its a fun team atleast the ironball thundurus is cool ty
Ah, I didn't see it had Rising Voltage. That makes a lot of sense lol.
Man I don't understand how some mons are outright banned because having any ability other than their original would be "too much", but having guys like Zamazenta, Ogerpon, and Roaring Moon running around with the craziest abilities of all time is just a-okay.
What mons are you confused about being banned? If you actually want to make a critique of the meta that would be helpful. Comparing the bans here to ND or really any other meta that isn't AAA-related is quite flawed because these metas are fundamentally very different to AAA. Keldeo for example is banned because Tinted Lens invalidates most resist checks and the more usual way to check strong SpA attackers otherwise being RegenVest and PortBlissey both get invalidated by Secret Sword which is a core difference to whatever is going in Natdex.
For Zamazenta the fighting type resists in the tier are extremely myriad with Regen and Intimidate/Fluffy being available and other offensive checks like Tapu Koko/Gholdengo/Dragonite/etc* Roaring Moon has an obnoxious SoR ZMove set which can be strong but has strong checks given it has to pick and choose the ZMove with the prominence of checks like Tapu Fini, Tusk and Corviknight as well existence of stronger priority in the tier. Ogerpon is hard to address because it's multiple mons but all of them generally struggle into their immunities like Desolate Land Moltres and other checks like Prank Pecha/Dragonite/Mew/Roaring Moon.
If you want to make an argument for a mon being too broken for a meta, address the metagame it exists in not point to its strength in other metas that are fundamentally very different.
Ok so I was experimenting with Silvally - Ice with Refrigerate Explosion, since for some reason the RKS System ability is not required to change a Silvally’s type in this format (unlike Arceus in Formemons),
If u don’t know, Multi Attack only changes type when Silvally holds a memory so I thought this would work with Refrigerate, but turns out Multi Attack is not affected by the -ate abilities AT ALL, it just remains normal type, now I’ll still use it with Frustration but I just wanted to let know about these wierd interactions which are probably just oversights since (i’m not gonna sugarcoat it) Silvally is a bad pokemon that nobody cares about
Have a Great Day!
If u don’t know, Multi Attack only changes type when Silvally holds a memory so I thought this would work with Refrigerate, but turns out Multi Attack is not affected by the -ate abilities AT ALL, it just remains normal type, now I’ll still use it with Frustration but I just wanted to let know about these wierd interactions which are probably just oversights since (i’m not gonna sugarcoat it) Silvally is a bad pokemon that nobody cares about
Have a Great Day!
I have been playing NatDex AAA for a bit, not long- but for a bit, and I do not really like the idea of 2A. Unlike regular AAA, more than one pokemon can share an ability, which feels crummy in general. Some shared abilities aren’t too much of a problem such as Sheer Force or Adaptability, but abilities like Surge Surfer or Regenerator feels cheap to go against. Dealing with 2 mons with potentially double speed in the same terrain or 2 AV/ physdef + spdef regen mons to deal with. I believe looking into this would be healthier in this meta going forward, and allows for more creative teambuilding.
That being said, I have been experimenting with Double Defiant Trick Room, with Sticky Webs Court Change Smeargle to support.
https://pokepast.es/7324d294c0d1e864
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Poltergeist
- Low Kick
- Shadow Bone
with defiant this mon reaches over 1000 attack with thick club and easily tears through teams. shadow bone over sd because its already powerful enough + another ghost stab without the risk of missing. your greatest hope against unaware
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 140 HP / 116 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Court Change
- Sticky Web
- Lunar Dance
just sets self sticky web and thats it, taunt for opposing defog and EVs for unboosted iron crown tachyon
Iron Hands @ Punching Glove
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 8 HP / 248 Atk / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
second defiant mon that ignores fluffy with punching glove and has perfect coverage, watch out for volt absorbers. you also really need this for rising voltage mons
Deoxys-Speed @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick Room
- Taunt
- Extreme Speed
- Teleport
a weird pick, but is fast enough to taunt defoggers (up to scarf lando) and gets off a trick room with sturdyboots. extreme speed is for sash leads which smeargle and deoxys cannot deal with, which also allows deoxys to hit mons under tr too.
Rabsca @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Revival Blessing
- Psychic Noise
- Memento
a unique trick roomer that can revive another mon, perfect for marowak-a or iron hands.shadow shield with mixed defenses is great, even taking the most powerful attacks just run sturdy max SpA
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Shadow Shield Rabsca: 297-349 (83.8 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Slowbro-Galar @ Slowbronite
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psyshock
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
i slapped this on for shits and giggles, seeing poison/psychic turning into water/psychic, however is suprisingly viable for setting up trick room again due to the type change and defense boost on mons like tusk, lando, and others. psyshock for AVregen mons
priority, technician dice mons, rising voltage mons, defoggers, and unaware mons are annoying, but the team is deadly if not prepared for
if 2A gets banned, you can try SoR on iron hands. have fun!
That being said, I have been experimenting with Double Defiant Trick Room, with Sticky Webs Court Change Smeargle to support.
https://pokepast.es/7324d294c0d1e864
Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Flare Blitz
- Poltergeist
- Low Kick
- Shadow Bone
with defiant this mon reaches over 1000 attack with thick club and easily tears through teams. shadow bone over sd because its already powerful enough + another ghost stab without the risk of missing. your greatest hope against unaware
Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 140 HP / 116 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Court Change
- Sticky Web
- Lunar Dance
just sets self sticky web and thats it, taunt for opposing defog and EVs for unboosted iron crown tachyon
Iron Hands @ Punching Glove
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 8 HP / 248 Atk / 252 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
second defiant mon that ignores fluffy with punching glove and has perfect coverage, watch out for volt absorbers. you also really need this for rising voltage mons
Deoxys-Speed @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sturdy
Tera Type: Psychic
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 104 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Trick Room
- Taunt
- Extreme Speed
- Teleport
a weird pick, but is fast enough to taunt defoggers (up to scarf lando) and gets off a trick room with sturdyboots. extreme speed is for sash leads which smeargle and deoxys cannot deal with, which also allows deoxys to hit mons under tr too.
Rabsca @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Shadow Shield
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 HP / 140 Def / 116 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Revival Blessing
- Psychic Noise
- Memento
a unique trick roomer that can revive another mon, perfect for marowak-a or iron hands.
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Roaring Moon Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Shadow Shield Rabsca: 297-349 (83.8 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Slowbro-Galar @ Slowbronite
Ability: Competitive
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Psyshock
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
i slapped this on for shits and giggles, seeing poison/psychic turning into water/psychic, however is suprisingly viable for setting up trick room again due to the type change and defense boost on mons like tusk, lando, and others. psyshock for AVregen mons
priority, technician dice mons, rising voltage mons, defoggers, and unaware mons are annoying, but the team is deadly if not prepared for
if 2A gets banned, you can try SoR on iron hands. have fun!
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I have a fun houndoom set I want to share!
Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
While it doesn't have some flashy gimmick not worryig about needing a sun setter is really nice lol
Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Solar Beam
- Sludge Bomb
While it doesn't have some flashy gimmick not worryig about needing a sun setter is really nice lol
Ceruledge has been quite a contentious mon for a while now, having received a vote before 6 months ago, performing similar tricks to what it did in SVAAA it has continued to show itself as a immensely strong breaker that often pressured teams to have either very dedicated checks for it or towards a particularly offensive slant. Compared to SV, Ceruledge does have to content with various obstacles; Dragonite, Pursuit and 2AC allow for some more flexible checks like Regenerator Ting-Lu or speed invested Gliscor that could mostly check it. However, the blessing of ZMoves have greatly benefitted Ceruledge as it can bypass the few defensive checks such as Gliscor and itemless mons, becoming nigh-unstoppable with a terrifyingly powerful Ghostium-Z Poltergeist and extra options in Sneak and CC to even devastate checks suck as Pursuit Metagross, Roaring Moon and Ting-Lu. While other powerful wallbreakers exist in the tier such as Tapu Lele, Gholdengo, Walking Wake and ZMove RMoon, none of them are particularly as quite immediately destructive as Ceruledge and in lieu of AAAPL coming soon we've decided to revote on Ceruledge and it has been banned! Some may blame ZMoves for pushing Ceruledge over the edge, but for now we have chosen to continue to monitor how ZMoves impact the metagame after removing another abuser that was already quite strong on its own.
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Mostly unrelated but Sharpness Ceruledge was a very real set that I had a ton of fun with, unfortunate that it’s stuck on a mon that’s just nigh - unwallable with a power boosting ability
Ceruledge has been quite a contentious mon for a while now, having received a vote before 6 months ago, performing similar tricks to what it did in SVAAA it has continued to show itself as a immensely strong breaker that often pressured teams to have either very dedicated checks for it or towards a particularly offensive slant. Compared to SV, Ceruledge does have to content with various obstacles; Dragonite, Pursuit and 2AC allow for some more flexible checks like Regenerator Ting-Lu or speed invested Gliscor that could mostly check it. However, the blessing of ZMoves have greatly benefitted Ceruledge as it can bypass the few defensive checks such as Gliscor and itemless mons, becoming nigh-unstoppable with a terrifyingly powerful Ghostium-Z Poltergeist and extra options in Sneak and CC to even devastate checks suck as Pursuit Metagross, Roaring Moon and Ting-Lu. While other powerful wallbreakers exist in the tier such as Tapu Lele, Gholdengo, Walking Wake and ZMove RMoon, none of them are particularly as quite immediately destructive as Ceruledge and in lieu of AAAPL coming soon we've decided to revote on Ceruledge and it has been banned! Some may blame ZMoves for pushing Ceruledge over the edge, but for now we have chosen to continue to monitor how ZMoves impact the metagame after removing another abuser that was already quite strong on its own.
