Announcement NP: RU Stage 19 - Dance All Night [Salamence Suspect Test]

[feen]

blame LBN for this
​

gm

After a recent tiering survey and internal discussion, we've decided to suspect test Salamence!

Arriving in the tier with the wave of drops from the second DLC, Salamence has been a long standing presence in the tier, but it wasn't originally in much spotlight. However, over time the tier has experienced a plethora of changes and adaptations that has made Salamence more and more threatening; the most recent of which was the rise of Weezing-Galar. Bulky Tera Normal Facade sets took off as a way of brutalizing Weezing-Galar while also allowing it to freely switch into Scalds and other Pokemon like Volcanion, and this set has continued to dominate even after Weezing-Galar rose off the power of Normal/Ground coverage hitting the entire metagame for at least neutral damage. After Weezing-Galar left, DD Lum Outrage sets have been used to impunity and to great success. This, combined with Tera Steel for a swath of the tiers priority like Mamoswine's Ice Shard and Entei's Extreme Speed makes revenge killing it very difficult for many teams that don't wish to risk a speed tie with their Zapdos-Galar. Handling it passively isn't an easy feat either, as status can be largely ineffective against its most dangerous sets. Hyper Offenses have began stacking Salamence with Gyarados, as the two share similar checks and both punish attempts of status to overwhelm many tactics to handle in defensively.

That isn't to say it's impossible though. Foul Play users like Magnet Rise Klefki, Slowbro and Umbreon can punish it, while walls like Hippowdon, Quagsire and the aforementioned Slowbro can stomach hits even after a Dragon Dance. On the offensive front, due to the fact you cannot Terastallize during Outrage, Mamoswine's Ice shard and Lycanroc-Dusk's Accelrock can still be a potent deterrent to attempts to sweep, while Bisharp's Sucker Punch is consistently effective vs most Salamence. The most common scarfer being Zapdos-Galar is both a blessing and a curse, as while a sweep can be gained by winning, it can just as easily be lost by losing the speed tie. Terastallization is also a double-edged sword, as Pokemon like Registeel and common tera types like Fairy and Steel can also stop Salamence in a pinch.

Some people believe these measures to be sufficient, while others believe this to be far too constricting. The answer is for you to decide.

NOTE: THIS TEST WILL BE USING A NEW SUSPECT PROCESS!

The instructions to participate in this test are as follows:

• Create a new account on PS. You do not have to follow any specific naming convention, but your suspect account must have never played a game in RU before this suspect test went up or you will not receive valid requirements (resetting W/L does not count for this - the account you use must never have played RU before the test, full stop.)
• At any point on your new account, use the command /linksmogon on Pokemon Showdown! You will receive instructions on what to do once you run this command.
• Double check that you're listed as a voter here! If you aren't listed as a voter despite having valid reqs, please contact myself, TheFranklin, Rarelyme, or a member of staff.

>>VOTER LIST<<

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If you have any questions about this new process, feel free to PM me or post here!

The requirement to vote in this suspect test is a COIL value of 2800 with a B-value of 7. The deadline for getting requirements will be Tuesday, August 5th, 23:59 GMT -4. Good luck to all!

 

[GoldCat]

I blame LBN for this

 

[Hon07rial]

I truly do not know why am I surprised the least bit.

This was only a matter of time after the latest shift.
Although, I think this suspect test came way too early. Frankly, Mence won't be the last of our problems caused by the loss of Gweezing and I think the better solution would have been to wait and see if better and more sufficent responses to the current offensive structures in the meta develop or not.

The last survey states "None are high enough to justify a suspect test, and so we will not be doing anything." thus I do not see the need for urgency.

And so I take a neutral stance on the suspect for now but I will be waiting for the more qualified players's insights on this.

 

[LBN]

Well, Salamence is up to bat. Truthfully, I dont have much to input because honestly I'm the one who penned the OP this time, so I'll try and explain differently why this thing is dumb, and it mainly comes down to, at least to me, how dangerous it is with how little effort it has to put in.

DD Facade mence is an absurdly reliable Offensive/Defensive threat that can just be chucked into the stuff most physical sweepers loathe and just use it as juice. Does getting burned punk your EQ DPS? Sure. Doesn't really matter when Jirachi takes like 30% from an unboosted facade post tera and it's not like many Jirachi even elect to run recovery, let alone all the other steels. Those 30% facade smacks your hitting bisharp with? That damage is gonna stick, and it adds up quick especially combined with the spikes Mence loves getting from Gastrodon to begin with. Sticky Hold Gastro + Facade Mence is the equivalent of getting your cake and eating it too and it leads to some really stupid games where Mence can just outlast and break teams with strong consistency. That's specifically facade mence, and if that was it, then I think I'd be shitting on Gyarados instead, but that's not close to it.

Now we get to the all-out DD sets. Simply put, these sets are dumb as bricks. That mention of Magnet Rise Klefki in the OP? I had to force myself to put that shit in cuz by all means it shouldn't even qualify cuz you can't switch it in safely at all, EQ turns it into red mist. And if its max max phys def your Gardevoir mu is in the toilet so it's not at all ideal. FP Slowbro and Hippo are good measures yes, but having these two momentum drains on every squad isn't pleasant, no matter how good these two + stuff like regi actually is. And that gets into my next point, Draco Meteor. Draco Mence never actually left and its a set that causes anybody who takes the defensive approach to take a pause and this equation gets even more fucked by Tera Dragon add-on. With that, even uninvested Draco's backed by Tera and Life Orb can legit drop both Slowbro and Hippo after a single spike. With how hard Salamence is to check normally off the base fundies of Flying/Ground boosting clicks, the next best bet for many teams is gonna be Zapdos-Galar and its up to who attends church on Sunday more often if the games is done then and there. Hell, you don't even really need Tera to get this done, a little more elbow grease or some fighting type u turns on a slowbro and you're off to the races. (Draco also completely eliminates Quagsire from the checklist btw).

"Oh but Life orb is telegraphed as shit" I hear you say. And that's true, but there is some nuance. Firstly, this assumes you've seen life orb already before your Slowbro switched in to handle the Mence. 2, even if you have this assumes you can actually do something about it. "I'll pivot out to force a -2!" Sure, but to who exactly? Zapdos-Galar for like 75% off its bar? Basculegion for like 70%? Entei for 70%? I can go on, but you get the idea. The half-measures aren't great, and if I need to dedicate multiple slots to keep this sweeper at bay, one that can ignore a swath of them with some finesse? That's the mark of a broken mon, one I'll be voting Ban on to boot.

 

[DA CAR BOSS]

im so suprised salamence is getting suspect tested (im being sarcastic)

 

[shreyashhy]

He dances in light and in shadow and he is a great favorite. He never sleeps, the Mence. He is dancing, dancing. He says that he will never die. I think most of my grievances with this mon have already been addressed and acknowledged in both the Discord as well as LBN's post here. Too much damage output, good set variance, few reliable checks, serviceable bulk, this mon does too much. Tera sends it over the line.

I'm voting ban, mods please send his ass to BL

 

[Paprikaflow]

My main issue with Salamence is the threat is poses while running different sets, that require different checks.

While a SpA or a mixed attacker set is cool, its a insignificant factor and I will therefore ignore. The physical attackers are way harder to deal with. It comes from a great speed tier, which allows it to at least speed tie almost the entire metagame after a Dragon Dance.
Despite having tremendous power it still possesses considerable bulk, allowing to tank attacks to boost itself even more or even Roost the damage off.
With the bulky Adamant set it doesn't even have to fear burns. The only reliable check is foul play users, yet none of them can really check Salamence well. The best would probably be Slowbro, but it gets 2HKO by Outrage, while Foul Play doesn't do enough to kill it. Or if you don't have foul play you need to rely on burns, which get annihilated by a Sub-set, or even Facade.
Another defensive in Registeel gets overwhelmed by Earthquake and Gastrodon can be countered by Tera Steel.
Offensive checks are rare like Ice Shard from Mamoswine and Mimikyu are also imperfect options as they get countered by Tera Steel.

Lastly the ability Moxie leaves very little room for error, as it allows Salamence to snowball quickly, which also allows it to abuse weakened mons to either snowball or set up forcing the switch. It also prohibits a combination of Pokemon to check Salamence well.

I' am voting ban.

 

[Heni-san]

To be honest, I have to say that I’m really struggling with this decision. Of course, there are many Pokémon like Mamoswine, Gyarados, Volcanion, or Armarouge that can heavily influence teambuilding or force defensive Terastallizations. However, Salamence operates on a different speed tier — the offensive counterplay that works against those other threats is far more limited here.


Mence has bulk, solid typing, makes excellent use of Tera, offers multiple viable and powerful sets, forces Teras, demands fast speed control, and more. I believe all of this simply adds up to too much, even if I personally had little to no trouble with it while laddering.


For the sake of teambuilding freedom, I vote to ban.

 

[TORVEX]

I feel theres a good amount of checks to salamence in team builder (example: quagsire, slowbro, mamoswine, etc)

 

[Slikkles]

First time talking for a suspect test on smogon. Here's why I will vote Ban.

Salamence was a scary but you could deal with it pre-shift thanks to weezing g. It was as good as a counter can get to the lum outrage set. However, even before we saw the rise of façade mence with tera normal or fairy to abuse weezing and it started to pop up more and more. It was a really good set back then and I was starting to have mence on my radar.

Then the shifts happened. Losing nearly all the fairies, outrage has gen 5 vibes and the dd lum set is probably the scariest sweeper now. It has the bulk to set up very easly, it's fast enough, tera steel lets it even potentially get 2 des to not even tie with zapdos. Yeah this thing is a monster just with this set alone. We can also add the façade set which is still great and now you have to use stuff like iron defense slowbro/ foul play to hope to counter it. It's a very stupid mon which makes this metagame super annoying with a bunch of ho that's very hard to counter for 0 reason while having very little room to outplay.

 

[toinha]

I'm voting ban. I would love to say that Salamence isn't a threat to me since I became so addicted to use Slowbro/Rocky helmet users like Hippo. That would be true if it wasn't by the fact that when this pokemon it's combined to another 5 hydrogen bombs in Hyper Offenses like Armarouge (I hate this mon so fucking much) you have your options limited A LOT and NEEDS to be extremely careful playing around it.

 

[FastCarVroom!!!]

First suspect I think I’ve voted on since Dracovish woo! hard to come up with a lot of things that haven’t already been said, but simply put the ability for this mon to ignore burns and abuse stab facade is a cause for concern. Mence extremely limits defensive building options and even the ones that do exist can be worn down by its HO teammates in the early/mid game, making it almost impossible to outplay if piloted correctly. It’s unfortunate to lose special/mixed mence because I felt like it added a lot of value to the tier, but unfortunately with the loss of galar weezing dd sets have become even more suffocating. Spikes plus facade can often wear down normal resists over time so it’s quite difficult for me to see any other decision besides Ban unless someone can provide a very comprehensive argument. In a world where Tera didn’t exist I think this mon would likely not be a problem but its ability to adapt its type and abuse matchup asymmetries depending on the teams need ultimately pushes this mon over the edge.

 

[reachzero]

Got reqs, Salamence is really strong. Tera Normal Facade DD is ridiculously good if you save Tera, since you can set up on things nothing should have any business setting up on, like Volcanion, and it's good against all play styles. I didn't see MixMence at all. That base 100 speed tier is pretty much what pushes Salamence to be strong; it was just so easy to threaten to run away with games after one boost that a lot of times you didn't even really need to do it. I will say that this does have a bit of a feeling of a perfect storm, I can imagine a scenario where if the right Pokemon dropped Mence would have to be revisited; its coverage isn't supreme on any one set. Right now though, ill vote Ban.

Team:https://pokepast.es/7e25d0c90aed814b