Announcement SV National Dex Suspect #20 - Señorita

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First post kinda nervous >___<

Anyway I wanted to post my thoughts on Wellspring. I've thought this mon was broken from Day 1 of release so i'm very glad this is getting a sus rn.

Wellspring heavily restricts the builder. This tier has the problem of there being too many threats to account for and this mon is one of the main culprits. The combination of water grass + coverage is insane, obliterating most of the tier. The mons that do resist the dual stab get nuked by either superpower or play rough, those being ferro, latios, rbolt, dnite, and kommo-o. Of course, wellspring isnt always going to have the proper coverage every time but the possibility is threatening and if guessed wrong there goes your ferro or latios. Don't even get me started on corv, zap, torn, pech sciz, or pex.

Corv dies to +2 ivy cudgel with rocks and chip, it has to roost on unboosted cudgels or it dies the next time to +2 cudgel and a +2 crit ohkos. Same story with zapdos and torn, one crit and its joever and cannot repeatedly take unboosted cudgels. Both it and zapdos also have to rely on an inaccurate flying move and torns hurricane/bleakwind doesnt even ohko from full. (hurricane 25% chance to ohko)

Sciz takes +2 cudgel better than corv or zap but needs to be running u-turn or its doing nothing back and is hazard weak. Pech gets 3hkoed by cudgel so it has to recover if it doesnt want to get destroyed by +2 the next time it comes in and malignant doesnt even ohko. Pex literally evs its defense so it doesnt get ohkoed by +2 whip and with chip dies. Not a good answer at all.

Mons like tang, venu, and amoonguss get farmed by pivot sets, they get knocked, spiked up on, and u-turned on forever and arent nearly as splashable as the ou wellspring checks.

The only mon faster than wellspring that can take at least two cudgles is zama and again, one crit there goes your zama. The other faster mons Lop, koko, val, weavile, ace, scarf lele, scarf lando, scarf urshifu, (power whip) and scarf hamu (whip) cannot switch in at all not to mention that neither zama, lop, shifu, hamu, lele, or val can ohko the mon (yes im aware that fake out + cc kills and the 1 in 100 specs val focus blast ohkos). 110 is more than enough for a mon like wellspring and its quite obvious that it outspeeds all that it needs to.

Concerns about glisc/alo becoming too strong if wellspring gets banned are funny cause kartana is right there. Also people saying "its item locked" as an argument act like it wouldnt want to run Wellspring mask, same for the hazard weak argument, hooray you found one weakness in this absurd mon congrats.

That's it for now, gotta do reqs (I will be running autopilot ho) cuz I procrastinated and now I only got 2 days to finish.

Most obvious Ban oat.
 
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Hello guys,

This is my first forum post, I have been unable to finish reqs due to starting late, hax, bad matchups and overall tilt, so I gave up. However, I’d still like to post about my thoughts on Ogerpon-Wellspring in the tier. (Sorry if this essay is too big).
So, here’s:

# Why Ogerpon-Wellspring needs to leave the tier:

Ogerpon-Wellspring is one of the most oppressive wallbreakers we have seen in generation 9. It has multiple different sets and a wide move variety, which drastically change its checks and how it plays (The main sets being SD and 4a, but it also can slot some other moves onto these sets, like spikes on the 4a set, encore in general, synthesis [mainly on the 4a set], even taunt and sub on the SD set, or trailblaze, which can throw any plans to revenge kill waterpon out of the window).

The sets: https://pokepast.es/afce34df1d7e1b9a

# Now we will get into the reasons to ban waterpon, starting with:

# It’s very oppressive in the teambuilder, severely restricts fat and wounds balance, while encouraging and enabling offensive archetypes (mainly HO)


Let’s first start by listing some checks and counters to waterpon:

The Checks and Counters to Waterpon
(Note: these aren’t ordered in terms of effectiveness vs wellspring or viability, just listing from the top of my head)

Check #1: Dragonite : Dnite has been splashed onto a bunch of BO and Fat teams for its ability to check yard, wellspring, be a ground immune and act as a wincon. Dragonite loses to variants of wellspring running play rough (unless running heavy defense investment) and gets crippled badly by knock off (loses its heavy duty boots, severely effecting its longevity, after which overwhelming it becomes easier, especially for the knock u turn sets that can now u turn on dnite with rocks up and wear it down)

Check #2: Pecharunt: Pech has seen a decent amount of usage on teams as a pivot and check to many commo mons like iron valiant, zamazenta, MLop and act as a spinblocker. Pecharunt is barely a check to waterpon, because it takes 70% from +2 ivy cudgel while failing to KO back with malignant chain and non SD sets still do a lot to it, forcing it to click recover, giving up momentum and letting something in for free, while clicking parting shot instead of recover means you don’t switch in again. Knock off also severely cripples pech and lets wellspring pressure pech even more, often just needing hazard chip and a crit to overwhelm it. Pech needs malignant hax to beat SD 1v1 and needs to be at full HP or close to it to even check waterpon at all.

Check #3: Ferrothorn: First of all, ferro DOES NOT check waterpon if it’s running gyro ball over power whip or body press. Wellspring literally just SDs in its face while gyro ball does peanuts and spams cudgel. 2. While ferro does help play around wellspring to some extent and checks the non superpower variants, but it’s still a slippery slope, since superpower is the most common move option on waterpon + it hates losing its leftovers to knock off, which makes wearing it down with hazards much easier. Ferro is often forced to be paired with wellspring checks that beat superpower and knock off variants.

Check #4 Raging Bolt: Bolt is a very short term soft check to waterpon, the Hdb variants hate knock and +2 superpower nearly OHKOs bolt, while play rough just completely destroys bolt. Thunderclap can help but still often involves mind games or losing to encore.

Check #5: Zapdos: Zap has a similar situation to Pecharunt, except that it’s even less full proof as one ivy critdgel puts it in range of another, while pech lives any +2 hit besides high roll crit cudgel. Zap also has hurricane accuracy problems and is similarly forced to click roost. It can’t even static wellspring cuz this thing needed a 100 base power, perfectly accurate, non contact stab with a high crit ratio.

Check #6: Tornadass-Ther(m)i(ss)an: This mon is thankfully faster than waterpon unlike zap and pech, but it hates losing boots to knock and doesn’t take cudgel that well. Only defensive torn is barely a switch in btw. Torn also doesn’t have a recovery move, only regenerator. (And if it’s a bad day for you, god shall bless you and make sure that tornadass-T doesn’t miss hurricane again and lose to waterpon anyway, after all, torn has accuracy problems but look who doesn’t? (**Ivy Cudgel Intensifies**) )

Check #7: Mega Latios (and ig mega latias but she is terrible in the current meta): MTios has seen use on BO and balance for similar reasons to dnite, as a glue mon that checks waterpon and counters yard while being a good breaker, but it has a speed tie with waterpon and it doesn’t check waterpon if it has prough or u turn. Even Draco doesn’t ohko waterpon btw, so much for its “lackluster bulk”. Mega Latias has the same problems but can TWave waterpon if she wins the speed tie ig, still unreliable and not even a good mon in the current meta.

Check #8: Corviknight: not as bad as mega latias, but still struggles a lot in the current meta. Also has the same problems as zap and pech, but is more reliable than zap. Solid check regardless, only dies to crit cudgel into regular cudgel after rocks, but it is also just bad in the current meta. Idef sets lose to encore.

# Dishonorable mention:

1. Toxic: Gliscor, alomomola and toxapex threaten to poison waterpon, helping wear it down and stop a sweep, while chipping into revenge killing range more easily, but the former two get KOd if waterpon decides to just attack instead and only pex can live a +2 whip and trade for a toxic, and even a toxic’d wellspring will still bonk a cudgel shaped hole into ur team and let the remaining finish you off. Wellspring is particularly good on offensive structures and is a huge reason as to why offebsive team styles are dominant while bulky teams suffer, more into that later.

# “Counters” to Ogerpon-Wellspring:

Counter #1: Mega Venusaur: MVenu is the best counter to waterpon, however, it still has many flaws itself, mainly its longevity. MVenu hates hazards, it severely crippled its longevity.
Waterpon can just u turn on MVenu with hazards up and there’s not much it can do about it. MVenu is also not easy to fit onto a team, a trend with every counter or hard check on this list.

Counter #2: Tangrowth: Tangrowth (or a different hard check/counter) is often forced onto fat teams to beat waterpon, but the problem is that 1. It’s a Tangrowth, very passive and basically dead weight in most matchups and 2. Tang isn’t a fan of knock + hazards + u turn. Still the second best counter, but insanely hard to fit onto a team.

Counter #3: Amoonguss : Amoonguss beats most waterpon sets, only struggling against knock u turn variants with hazards but amoonguss is even more passive than Tangrowth, gholdengo is one of the most common Pokémon in the tier and it completely destroys amoonguss. Amoonguss is just a bad Pokémon.

Hard Check #1: Hydrapple: Hydrapple is a solid hard check to ogerpon wellspring, but Hydrapple, as you guessed it, is hard to fit onto a team. Furthermore, Drapple is very inconsistent as a breaker, is slow, has an exploitable defensive typing (a lot in the tier hits it super effectively) and Hydrapple just loses to u turn and play rough variants. Even +2 superpower does 70%, some chip is all you need (unless Drapple has recover and clicks it on the turn superpower is used, but that loses to a second SD and waterpon lives any hit not named devastating drake, but that means you are running Z and are vulnerable to hazards)

Hard Check #2: Sinistcha: This thing is even harder to slap onto teams and is extremely niche as a spinblocker, also knock off variants destroy it.

The reason why waterpon is so oppressive on bulkier teams, especially fat is because it forces multiple checks or a hard counter onto fat teams. Fat is nearly unviable in natdex due to all of the devastating wallbreakers in the tier and ogerpon-wellspring is the biggest why fat is so bad in natdex. While in a vacuum, NP Z gholdengo is the most oppressive Pokémon on fat, but in reality, waterpon hurts fat the most because it’s hard checks and counters are so different from that of other breakers in the tier. Wellspring’s counters are bulky grasses that are hard to splash onto teams and some of them are passive as well.
Because waterpon forces multiple checks or a hard counter to itself onto fat teams, it actually makes a fat team’s matchup into other wallbreakers MUCH worse. It does this while being super oppressive itself and worsening other breakers.
Due of this, fat builds are hyper restricted, if waterpon was banned, fat would have far more diversity and would be a much better archetype. For example, fat teams would love to run ferrothorn as their bulky grass because it also provides other crucial resistances, courtesy of its steel typing, as well as hazards and knock off. However, because of ogerpon-wellspring, fat teams wanting to run ferrothorn are also forced to run other checks to waterpon on the same team that cover for knock and superpower variants, severely restricting teambuilding. But without waterpon, fat can happily run structures which aren’t hyper restricted, courtesy of not having to worry about getting destroyed by waterpon. Balance also similarly suffers. Balance is neither good, nor bad in the current nd meta and if stall teams can barely wall waterpon by incorporating a hard counter like amoonguss or Tangrowth, then balance has a much worse time against it. Because of how bad and restricted bulkier teams are along with balance’s mediocrity, BO and HO have become the prefered archetypes. Waterpon particularly enables these archetypes (mainly HO) really well because it fits as a premier wallbreaker on these teams, enabling other offensive terrors like sub swarm volcarona (swarm volc + waterpon is one of, if not the most insane HO core in the current meta and waterpon enables volc really well by chipping down the dragons for it).Waterpon also encourages HO and BO (mainly HO) because these archetypes have a much easier time against opposing waterpon, being able to out offense it, something that’s much more difficult for bulkier teams.

This is why I think that waterpon enables and encourages HO and BO, while hurting balance and nearly killing fat and being a very unhealthy presence for the tier. If I was able to get reqs, I’d vote to BAN waterpon and make natdex a better, more diverse and fun tier, both in terms of playing and teambuilding.
 
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# But that’s not all, I will also address some counter arguments I’ve heard, starting with:

CA #1: Waterpon is forced to run one item:
While it’s true that waterpon can’t run a different item like choice band or scarf, even if it could, the wellspring mask would be the most used on it by far. The wellspring mask is a broken item that gives waterpon what’s essentially a slightly weaker life orb with no recoil. This item is the reason why waterpon does so much damage, for example, Zapdos would be a much better check if the 20% boost from the mask wasn’t present, since zapdos now only dies to either 2 crits back to back or a max roll crit into a max roll non crit from ivy cudgel. If any other Pokémon could get the boost from the wellspring mask, it would become one of the most common items on offensive pokemon and would completely change the game (and probably get banned from everything besides waterpon).

CA #2: It’s hazard weak:
While waterpon does not enjoy hazards, it’s not volcarona. If waterpon has to come in on stealth rock a few times, it’s not the end of the world. Rocks won’t stop waterpon from bonking cudgel shaped holes into ur team and waterpon is very commonly paired with Pokémon like great tusk, hatterene and mega diancie, who are naturally good partners for waterpon and help it overcome hazards.

CA #3: It’s too frail to pull off a sweep: Well, first things first, it’s not even that frail, it lives modest raging bolt’s Draco meteor and 2. It doesn’t have to sweep, it’s a breaker. Waterpon fits on HO teams as a breaker, supporting other breakers and sweepers, like the aforementioned volcarona. Also, no sweeper is consistent at sweeping , so why is ogerpon rarely sweeping an argument even if it was a sweeper and not just a devastatingly oppressive wallbreaker that enables other breakers and sweepers?

CA #4: Rain is harder to prepare for than waterpon: this is a CA I saw someone state once in the room and I think that this point is completely wrong. Waterpon’s ban would heavily buff rain teams as rain structures wouldn’t be forced to slap a Chople berry ferrothorn + soft checks (usually archaludon and/or raging bolt) and they would be able to spam powerful rain boosted water moves again, however, rain has its own problems in the tier besides waterpon, mainly it’s matchup into mega charizard Y, pelipper’s stealth rock weakness etc. Against rain teams, even just a ferrothorn can go a long way in the matchup, ferro + something that revenge kills archaludon and is a strong breaker + something that pivots in on MPert superpower/Barraskewda close combat is usually enough. Rain becomes better post waterpon ban but not a top strategy due to its own flaws.

CA #5: Waterpon’s speed tier is mediocre due to speedcreep in national dex: Yes, this is the reason why waterpon struggles into HO, but, this is just another thing about waterpon that makes it so devastating against balance and fat. 110 is plenty fast for a breaker that is so hard to wall and demands so much in the teambuilder.

CA #6: (Another bad take from the room) Alomomola and Gliscor would become too annoying with Waterpon gone: Anyone who hates Gliscor and alomomola (no offense) has a skill issue. No matter how annoying Glisc clicking spikes, Alo clicking wish and both clicking toxic can get, both of these are extremely important and mandatory defensive Pokémon for the tier. Without Gliscor, what’s giving you hazard control, immunities to ground and electric, a long term answer to mega diancie etc, all in one slot? Furthermore, there are many other strong wallbreakers in the tier that can help deal with these two, an example being sub roost Kyurem.

CA #7: A waterpon ban would make stall better: Yes, this thing is so hard to wall that even stall teams struggle to wall it, but if stall suffers due to a breaker, than balance often suffers worse. You can’t slot in a Tangrowth on balance like you can on stall. Furthermore, gen 9 has been rough generation for stall, with all the other strong breakers in the tier. The same goes for fat balance, there are many other breakers in the tier to help, like sub roost Kyurem, cm lele, Z NP gholdengo, NP Z tornT etc.
Why should we nearly kill rain, fat, wound balance and keep the meta dominated by auto pilot volcarona waterpon HOs, just to keep an already bad archetype bad???

Waterpon is seriously unhealthy in the teambuilder and anyone who has tried building or using balance or fat knows this. It’s too restrictive in the builder, hard to check and causes too many problems, while keeping the meta in favor of more offensive playstyles. A majority of the points in favor of dnb for waterpon are just not good or valid. From what I’ve seen, only ppl who hate stall, love and use hyper offense, hate rain, hate fat and hate Gliscor and alomomola want waterpon to stay. If I was able to finish reqs, I’d vote ban. Praying that waterpon gets banned from the tier and ndou becomes much more diverse, fun to play and teambuild in.
 
 
Not all votes have been cast but a conclusion has been reached.
Qualified Voters: 64
Votes: 52

Ban: 26
Do not Ban: 26
Do not Ban %: 40.1%

More than 40% of voters have voted Do not Ban, and thus the 60% Ban threshold required can no longer be achieved. Thus Ogerpon-Wellspring remains unbanned!
Votes will remain open until the original deadline. Votes cast past this point WILL count towards the TC or Top TC Badge. Make sure to pm myself or sealoo if you qualify for either of these badges. Votes will be made public after the deadline.
 
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